Dublin priests face salary cuts

Keaton

Is it just me, or does any one else find this story a little irksome? Like, why is this news? Plus, there are lots of unemployed people and employed, who are not earning £20,000.

Don't get me wrong - I love priests, we need them, they bring us God, but isn't one of the Christian concepts that of poverty? My own PP is kitted out with ipad and iphone!

If a priest is getting a roof over his head, food, heat, and £20,000, isn't that still a pretty good deal? Have I missed something?

The Catholic priests of Dublin are facing a 9% drop in their salaries this year—after taking a 6% cut the previous year—because of declining church revenue.



The basic salary for a priest in Dublin is €24,079 ($32,750), down €4,000 in the past 2 years.

Did you ever see a starving, thin, cold priest in Ireland?

homer911

Are you sure food and heat are included?

Baggio1

priests in uk survive on a lot less and tend to share a house,, for far too long over here they had it tooo goood, fancy cars, golf sessions, too much money and a house to them selves...

am a strong backer of the RCC BUT the IRISH CC was wayyy too pampered and led to many a over fed spoiled clergyman, so yes a free house and 20,000?? id take it myself!!!!

so no i have nooo sympathy about this, i agree on ONE thing with most non believers, the church NEEDS to be poorer even as an on the ground organisation, it makes better clergy and better laity imo

PDN

Keaton wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I love priests, we need them, they bring us God, but isn't one of the Christian concepts that of poverty? My own PP is kitted out with ipad and iphone!

Poverty is a Christian concept in that it will always exist and God loves the poor - just as he loves the heartbroken and the persecuted.

But that doesn't mean that God wants Christians to be poor.

The level of remuneration for priests sounds very low considering the amount of training and third level education required from them.

professore

PDN wrote: »

Poverty is a Christian concept in that it will always exist and God loves the poor - just as he loves the heartbroken and the persecuted.

But that doesn't mean that God wants Christians to be poor.

The level of remuneration for priests sounds very low considering the amount of training and third level education required from them.

They will be paid what the market will bear, and since the market is shrinking, and those in the market have less money than before, therefore you can expect the salaries to drop further - unless the number of priests is not enough to keep up with demand. Simple economics.

PatricaMcKay2

PDN wrote: »

But that doesn't mean that God wants Christians to be poor.
.

Blessed are the poor and woe unto the rich for already they have their consolation, no? Poverty unlike desitution is in many ways a good thing that God certainly does want for his special ones.

PDN

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Blessed are the poor and woe unto the rich for already they have their consolation, no? Poverty unlike desitution is in many ways a good thing that God certainly does want for his special ones.

No. That would require us to take Scripture out of context and to induldge in cherrypicking and proof-texting.

God promises blessings to the poor as comfort and consolation. He also promises similar blessings to those who mourn, to those who are hungry and those who are persecuted. Do you think God wants all Christians to mourn, to suffer hunger, and to be persecuted?

As for 'woe to the rich' - he also pronounces similar woes on those who are well fed and to those who laugh. Eating properly or laughing are hardly sins - are they? A reasonable reading of the passage shows that Jesus is saying that those who have had the sharp end of the stick in the here and now will receive recompense in the future Kingdom.

The idea that poverty is a virtue, like the heresy that God wants everybody to rich, comes from a one-eyed approach to the Bible.

One side presents it as if there are only two kinds of people - the virtuous poor and the wicked rich.

The other side is similarly one-eyed in pretending that there are only two kinds of people - the faithful rich and the faithless poor.

However, a careful reading of the whole Bible makes clear that there are at least four kinds of people: the righteous rich; the wicked rich; the righteous poor; and the wicked poor.

For a great treatment on this subject I would heartily recommend Jonathan Bonk's "Missions and Money: Affluence as a Missionary Problem...Revisited" (published by the American Society of Missiology).

homer911

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Poverty unlike desitution is in many ways a good thing that God certainly does want for his special ones.

I think you are twisting what the Bible has to say about money. God doesn't want anyone to suffer from poverty, and certainly not destitution, but most importantly he doesn't want people to love/worship money and what it can provide.

If people choose poverty, fine, but very few do! God calls those who have money to be stewards of it and use it wisely - that doesn't mean they should not be paid a fair wage for what they do, regardless of their occupation

Rev John Wellesly (some say John Wesley!) is famously quoted as saying
"EARN as much as you can. SAVE as much as you can. INVEST as much as you can. GIVE as much as you can."

This applies to time as well as money..

UDP

PDN wrote: »

The level of remuneration for priests sounds very low considering the amount of training and third level education required from them.

What has training and third level education got to do with it? Surely people don't enter the priesthood as a career path? Surely they do it because god "called" them to it? Surely they just need the extreme basics so that as much funding as possible can go to help the poor and needy?

PDN

UDP wrote: »

What has training and third level education got to do with it? Surely people don't enter the priesthood as a career path? Surely they do it because god "called" them to it? Surely they just need the extreme basics so that as much funding as possible can go to help the poor and needy?

Christians believe that God calls them to all sorts of occupations and vocations. God calls people to be policemen, to be air traffic controllers, to be teachers - but they also get paid a decent wage.

UDP

PDN wrote: »

Christians believe that God calls them to all sorts of occupations and vocations. God calls people to be policemen, to be air traffic controllers, to be teachers - but they also get paid a decent wage.

There is a difference there between being a teacher/policeman and someone representing humans to god.

So you think a person might not become a RCC priest because they would not earn enough? It might be different where someone has to provide for a family but most RCC priests dont have to.

Newsite

Keaton wrote: »

Is it just me, or does any one else find this story a little irksome? Like, why is this news? Plus, there are lots of unemployed people and employed, who are not earning £20,000.

Don't get me wrong - I love priests, we need them, they bring us God, but isn't one of the Christian concepts that of poverty? My own PP is kitted out with ipad and iphone!

If a priest is getting a roof over his head, food, heat, and £20,000, isn't that still a pretty good deal? Have I missed something?



Did you ever see a starving, thin, cold priest in Ireland?

Baggio1 wrote: »

priests in uk survive on a lot less and tend to share a house,, for far too long over here they had it tooo goood, fancy cars, golf sessions, too much money and a house to them selves...

am a strong backer of the RCC BUT the IRISH CC was wayyy too pampered and led to many a over fed spoiled clergyman, so yes a free house and 20,000?? id take it myself!!!!

so no i have nooo sympathy about this, i agree on ONE thing with most non believers, the church NEEDS to be poorer even as an on the ground organisation, it makes better clergy and better laity imo

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Blessed are the poor and woe unto the rich for already they have their consolation, no? Poverty unlike desitution is in many ways a good thing that God certainly does want for his special ones.

Priests are people just like the rest of us who deserve to be paid a proper wage for honest work. Keaton, Baggio, what would it take to satisfy - to see the priests signing on the dole and driving to the Labour exchange in a battered Micra? Do you want them to be thin and starving?

'Ye cannot serve both God and Mammon'. It's not about how much money or worldy goods you have - it's about the motivation behind them. Is your over-riding motivation understanding, knowing and obeying God, or 'storing up the riches of this world'? Do you use your worldly goods for good, or for your own gain, to satisfy the 'lusts of the flesh'.

God doesn't want us to be poor, He knows about the practicalities of life, and gives us what He knows we need if we trust in Him. If you are ever in doubt about any of the above, always turn to this, poetic in its beauty:

***

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

georgieporgy

Unlike members of religious orders (monks and nuns) diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty. The are entitled to be paid for their work. (it's in the bible).
As PDN said, they need to be well educated and able to function in all areas of society. They do not have to dress in rags or contract leprosy.

When someone is dying in the middle of the night the family sends for a priest. If the priest can't come because his car is not road worthy or he can't afford to keep it fueled up what would we say then?

UDP

Newsite wrote: »

Priests are people just like the rest of us who deserve to be paid a proper wage for honest work. Keaton, Baggio, what would it take to satisfy - to see the priests signing on the dole and driving to the Labour exchange in a battered Micra?

Why would they be on the dole? IMO priests should have the bare essentials and no more - surely they are willing to sacrafice extra money so that more funds can be made available to the poor. Surely being a RCC priest is not seen as a job like any other job?

UDP

georgieporgy wrote: »

If the priest can't come because his car is not road worthy or he can't afford to keep it fueled up what would we say then?

God must have willed it to be so.

Newsite

UDP wrote: »

Why would they be on the dole? IMO priests should have the bare essentials and no more - surely they are willing to sacrafice extra money so that more funds can be made available to the poor. Surely being a RCC priest is not seen as a job like any other job?

Re the dole, I'm just using that to illustrate a point.

Why should they have only the bare essentials? As I said, it's the motivation that matters.

UDP

Newsite wrote: »

Re the dole, I'm just using that to illustrate a point.

Why should they have only the bare essentials? As I said, it's the motivation that matters.

No, its the actions that matter. Surely they want to help the poor and destitute in every way they can. What is the point of having extra money when they have god? Why do they need fancy churches etc when they have god? Why do they not allow the homeless to sleep in their churches at night time? Why do they errect gates in front of the steps of churches which block homeless people a small bit of shelter e.g. St. Andrew's off Pearse Street

Manach

To put the 20K in perspective, that is the same value as a watch given to Michael Fingleton as his retirement gift.

georgieporgy

UDP wrote: »

God must have willed it to be so.

when you make statements like this you should preface them with a disclaimer saying you know nothing about religion.;)

Manach

UDP wrote: »

Why do they errect gates in front of the steps of churches

- a sign of the times: church thefts.

UDP

Manach wrote: »

To put the 20K in perspective, that is the same value as a watch given to Michael Fingleton as his retirement gift.

How does that put it into perspective. How about this for perspective - its over twice the amount people get on disability allowance.

Newsite

UDP wrote: »

No, its the actions that matter. Surely they want to help the poor and destitute in every way they can. What is the point of having extra money when they have god? Why do they need fancy churches etc when they have god? Why do they not allow the homeless to sleep in their churches at night time? Why do they errect gates in front of the steps of churches which block homeless people a small bit of shelter e.g. St. Andrew's off Pearse Street

Your view is too myopic. Where do you draw the line? If a priest has 1k in his bank account, is he rich? What about 400 euro, does that make him poor? Who maintains the church to keep it clean if people are sleeping in it at night? Who pays the cleaners? Money has to come from somewhere. Would you like to pay into a fund to help pay the cleaners? I'm sure that if they allowed homeless people to sleep on the steps of the church, if someone had an accident they might turn around and sue the same church.

As I said, focus on God, not on mammon. He will take care of you.

UDP

Manach wrote: »

- a sign of the times: church thefts.

I doubt a gate is going to stop a theif. Looks to me they are errected to stop people sleeping by the door under the cover of front roof.

UDP

Newsite wrote: »

Your view is too myopic. Where do you draw the line? If a priest has 1k in his bank account, is he rich? What about 400 euro, does that make him poor? Who maintains the church to keep it clean if people are sleeping in it at night? Who pays the cleaners? Money has to come from somewhere. Would you like to pay into a fund to help pay the cleaners? I'm sure that if they allowed homeless people to sleep on the steps of the church, if someone had an accident they might turn around and sue the same church.

Maybe the priest could use his surplus money to pay for the cleaners.

Newsite wrote: »

As I said, focus on God, not on mammon. He will take care of you.

My point exactly - seems to be too much focus on wealth in the likes of the RCC and some other churches instead of the the vulernable in society.

georgieporgy

UDP wrote: »

My point exactly - seems to be too much focus on wealth in the likes of the RCC and some other churches instead of the the vulernable in society.

perhaps these poor homeless folks should become priests? (instead of living in other people's doorsteps and asking for handouts)

Manach

UDP wrote: »

I doubt a gate is going to stop a theif. Looks to me they are errected to stop people sleeping by the door under the cover of front roof.

These thefts are an indication of elements in society preying on rural areas and churches in the perceived assumption that these are easy targets for acts of criminality. If the coffers are completely depleted by spending money en masse to the poor instead of targeted relief (which I had been the receiptant of) then security measures such as alarms could not be sourced leading to even more larceny acts.

UDP

georgieporgy wrote: »

perhaps these poor homeless folks should become priests? (instead of living in other people's doorsteps and asking for handouts)

How very christian and simplified of you.

prinz

UDP wrote: »

Maybe the priest could use his surplus money to pay for the cleaners..

Or maybe those homeless could go to one of the myriad of resources available for them already? Many of which are connected to the RCC, Merchant's Quay Ireland for example (Franciscans and Dublin Diocese) Focus Ireland, (founded by Sr Stanislaus Kennedy) or the Simon Community (an organisation also originally founded by Roman Catholics).. to name but a few.

UDP wrote: »

My point exactly - seems to be too much focus on wealth in the likes of the RCC and some other churches instead of the the vulernable in society.

As above.

Baggio1

Newsite I agree
they should have a decent enough piece of transport for getting to and from parish work and visiting the sick and giving sacraments, no argument there, am just saying E20,000 with no rent/mortgage to pay is a pretty goood deal in my books, plus contributions from laiety and of course lots of pressies from parishioners - and again no harm in that... apart from many showering them with booze at christmas which is NOT a good thing, so yes be facilitated but no need to over do it... if i had a free house and E20,00 in me pocket i'd be well happy for sure.

lets face it - many of the problems of today were caused by guys going for it as a "career/good job" in the 40's,50's,60's etc and look what happened?.. many of those men should NEVER have been priests, many had nnooo vocation at all... and the celibacy was too difficult for them as they had no deeep holiness and spirituality to strengthen them and keep them focused on what their supposed to be doing. as another poster said its not meant to be a job/career its a vocation,,,,

i seen far too many times - admitedly back in the 80's/90's clergy like brendan grace in father ted,, boozing, fast cars and lots of holidays now i WILL say i saw veryy little of this in UK where i lived,,, but saw loads of it here... so there is a difference in my book.

Keaton

St. John Marie Vianney ate boiled potatoes and nothing else. He cooked them at the start of the week and made do for the rest of the week.

Now look at many priests today: fast cars, golf club memberships, frequent holidays, ipads, ipods, the best of everything.

I'm not interested in career priests. A priest should not be a materialist.

Look at the confessional schedules in a church. Then look at the golf schedules.

We need holy priests, not career priests who gripe because they 'only' get £20,000 a year. I am unemployed and I would love somebody to pay me £20,000 a year!

I hate this idea of the 'career priest'.

Baggio1

Keaton exactly my point - deep spiritual priests... not golf lovers and heads of the local hurling squad.... i find it harder and harder to find any mention of confessions in any church these days - and thazts their job...in mean vocation to deal with... anyway yu get the gist