Atheism and Death

Liamario

Rather than hijack a thread, I thought it would be an interesting question to ask people of similar thinking to myself.

I'm not afraid of death, but I do get emotional from morbid thoughts of leaving people behind or never getting to see or talk to my long suffering partner again.

How do my fellow non believers feel about this sort of scenario, or is it something you haven't even thought about.

Dades

Having kids really brings home the worst possible scenarios.

You can't escape the morbid thoughts - you just have to hope to eke out a few more years until you go first with a relatively good innings behind you.

TwoShedsJackson

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain

Liamario

My girlfriend who's prone to romantic thoughts on life, raised this question. She doesn't like to talk about it much. I suppose, what I'm trying to ascertain is some comfort from some like minded thinkers as to how they feel about the whole death thing.

I think as a species, our brains are at a stage of evolution of being extremely self aware of our mortality. Some have chosen to look for an almighty being for comfort and other not so much.
I don't think theists and atheists differ that much about death. Of course, theists claim that they go to heaven, but I suspect the vast majority of them have doubts about this.

nozzferrahhtoo

I have thought about it often in the past and always came to the same conclusions.

Firstly that there is nothing one can do about it and so worrying about it just takes away from what you should be doing… which is living the life you have…. And using your thought processing power for more important tasks.

Secondly that the idea there is death and no after life actually makes life precious. I find the idea of an afterlife cheapens the life we have here as it is short, pointless and meaningless in comparison. Life is precious because it is the only one you will ever have. If things you do in life matter then they matter precisely because of the limited time you have to do it in.

On a slightly related note this is why I find the concepts in Christianity so comical. Aside from the fact there is no evidence for a god… the core idea of Christianity is that Christ somehow made a sacrifice for us, and that god “gave” us his only son.

However if you think about it god in the tales did no more than “lend” us a son. And Christ sacrificed nothing… he traded one short painful meaningless life for an eternal one of bliss, happiness and joy. Hardly a sacrifice is it? Sounds like a great trade to me and one few of us wouldn’t make. So what “sacrifice” was made here exactly??? I think it is an insult to our intelligence to call it a “sacrifice” and I think it an insult to those of our species who actually have gone so far as to give their life for a cause, person or ideal.

So I find in short (something I am not often) that the concept of death… far from being morbid or causing morbid thoughts in me…. Is actually a fuel for the joy I take out of, and value I put into, life. If you are worried about things you can not do or say after you are dead, then rather than worry about them… go say and do them now while you still can.

Seize the day.

Penn

The idea of leaving behind loved ones and never seeing them again (well, them never seeing you again) is a horrible one. But that's what death is. It's horrible. All you can do is make what life you had enough that your loved ones will always have the best of memories. They might not physically be able to see you ever again, but the good memories would be a great comfort.

If I felt my loved ones could do that, it'd make my death a little bit easier to deal with

excaliburhc

doesnt bother me in the slightest - your dead your gone - thats about it.
- no thoughts no worries nothing -

never see anyone again - but then again never know you are not seeing anyone again.

Beruthiel

As I've said before in here, the only thing I fear is a long term illness.

nozzferrahhtoo is spot on, not believing in a god really focuses the mind.
I am well aware of how very lucky I am to be alive, especially now.
A few hundred years ago I'd already be the old crone waiting to die (shut up!), yet, I may still have years ahead of me.
As Richard Dawkins said, out of all the possible sperm/eggs, I got to be the one who came to live.
If I died tomorrow, I've already had a wonderful life.
I'm not bothered about being dead. It's just a big long sleep and I won't be aware of it.

I better live till The Hobbit is released though!

WalterMitty

The tought of being alive forever isnt very appealing. Could be extremely boring and painfull. Unless it was in a realm where time didnt really function like here in this universe.

Sarky

I'd rather not die. I like doing stuff. I'd rather not get so old I can't enjoy life though, either. Immortality only sounds brilliant if you haven't sat down and thought about it.

But meh, We're all going to croak at some point, it's completely inevitable, and thus not really important. Barring some nasty accident I have maybe another 50 years or so, and I'm going to make the most of those. There are facts to learn, friends to make, foods to taste, places to go, songs to hear, things to do.

I do miss folks when they die. It's natural. Someone you like disappears, their absence is going to affect you. But you get over that. The things they said and did while they were about still stand.

I know I'm going to die, and some people will miss me, and eventually they'll get over it, and I'm fairly ok with that. That might change closer to my actual death, as panic sets in that I haven't gotten round to doing everything I wanted (assuming I haven't managed to do so...) but there's little point getting all mopey and morbid about it when there are so many amazing things between now and then.

MrPudding

Liamario wrote: »

Rather than hijack a thread, I thought it would be an interesting question to ask people of similar thinking to myself.

I'm not afraid of death, but I do get emotional from morbid thoughts of leaving people behind or never getting to see or talk to my long suffering partner again.

How do my fellow non believers feel about this sort of scenario, or is it something you haven't even thought about.

I feel pretty much the same as you. Like Beruthiel I fear long term dehabilitating illness, but not death itself.

The thought of not being able to see my gf. kids and family makes me sad right now, obviously it isn't a happy thing to think about, but there is no fear

MrP

Delirium

It's hard to say if atheism has made much of a difference to my attitude to death.

My mam died when I was 7. As a result I would have anxiety attacks every so often when I considered my mortality. Did a bereavement course in secondary school, which even though it was aimed at Christians, it was good as talking through stuff helped with the attacks.

A lot of the well meant talk from adults about my mam being "in a better place" was really confusing to my young mind. Why did every hang around on Earth if better things were waiting for us in another life?

Anyways, I guess not believing in an afterlife is a great motivator to try and make things a little better with the time I have on this rock

ShooterSF

I don't know if it's the whole movember thing and thinking of prostate cancer or the two day depressing alcohol hangover but I had a real freak out a few days ago more about that likely moment when you find out your time is limited.
But you just have to turn it into something positive and use it to motivate yourself to do more things you want to do... now.

saa

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this actually doesn't matter.

I would be sitting on a bus or in the studio and sometimes be consciously aware that all this is so I can survive, entertain and distract myself temporarily.

Everything is all I know, I am all that I am, the people around me, the world around me and space within a matter of decades just won't exist for me.

It's not depressing I don't have to believe there is anything more I just think its strange.

I don't think about dying but I do think of my mortality, that time is running out and my whole life I've never been able to enjoy myself or appreciate where I am.

I get wrapped up in small aspirations and achievements, I can't believe I let myself become stressed about.


Sometimes I fear more than death, the scenario where I die in Ireland, never traveled the world or did anything I really wanted because I have a house here.

Sarky

saa wrote: »

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this actually doesn't matter.

Oh, all the time. It makes the crowds of people trying to shape society and wage wars according to religion darkly hilarious. It's sometimes like they're deliberately trying to cheapen life in order to make an afterlife more appealing.

Corkfeen

I'm not too worried about it, to quote the Lion King, "It's the circle of life". It's absurd to fear the unavoidable, granted this will probably change when I'm old and decrepit. :rolleyes:

ShooterSF

Corkfeen wrote: »

I'm not too worried about it, to quote the Lion King, "It's the circle of life". It's absurd to fear the unavoidable, granted this will probably change when I'm old and decrepit. :rolleyes:

By then you will have bigger things to fear like what them darn kids are up to on your lawn.

28064212

saa wrote: »

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this actually doesn't matter.

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this is the only thing that matters?

I like the Applied Anthropics theory, whereby the universe's crowning achievement and entire purpose was the eventual evolution of me

(kudos if you know what that reference is from without looking it up)

Dades

This thread has somewhat reminded me of this...

ShooterSF

28064212 wrote: »

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this is the only thing that matters?

I like the Applied Anthropics theory, whereby the universe's crowning achievement and entire purpose was the eventual evolution of me

(kudos if you know what that reference is from without looking it up)

If I'm lucid enough I'd freaking love to steal Tim Minchin's idea for your last words "but who's the world going to revolve around now?"

nozzferrahhtoo

ShooterSF wrote: »

If I'm lucid enough I'd freaking love to steal Tim Minchin's idea for your last words "but who's the world going to revolve around now?"

I fell in front of an oncoming truck in cork once over 10 years ago now. I had one of those everything slowing down horror moments where I thought this was it I was going to die.

Clearly I managed to hit the floor and get back up in time to avoid being run over.

I can however report that my final words, or what would have been my final words had I not gotten up in time were... "whhhheeeeeeeeeeee".

I do not know why, but that makes me happy.

ed2hands

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have thought about it often in the past and always came to the same conclusions.

Firstly that there is nothing one can do about it and so worrying about it just takes away from what you should be doing… which is living the life you have…. And using your thought processing power for more important tasks.

Secondly that the idea there is death and no after life actually makes life precious. I find the idea of an afterlife cheapens the life we have here as it is short, pointless and meaningless in comparison. Life is precious because it is the only one you will ever have. If things you do in life matter then they matter precisely because of the limited time you have to do it in.

On a slightly related note this is why I find the concepts in Christianity so comical. Aside from the fact there is no evidence for a god… the core idea of Christianity is that Christ somehow made a sacrifice for us, and that god “gave” us his only son.

However if you think about it god in the tales did no more than “lend” us a son. And Christ sacrificed nothing… he traded one short painful meaningless life for an eternal one of bliss, happiness and joy. Hardly a sacrifice is it? Sounds like a great trade to me and one few of us wouldn’t make. So what “sacrifice” was made here exactly??? I think it is an insult to our intelligence to call it a “sacrifice” and I think it an insult to those of our species who actually have gone so far as to give their life for a cause, person or ideal.

So I find in short (something I am not often) that the concept of death… far from being morbid or causing morbid thoughts in me…. Is actually a fuel for the joy I take out of, and value I put into, life. If you are worried about things you can not do or say after you are dead, then rather than worry about them… go say and do them now while you still can.

Seize the day.

Just about what your thoughts on Christianity.
("the core idea of Christianity is that Christ somehow made a sacrifice for us, and that god “gave” us his only son.")
Would agree that that is a core idea, along with others. ****. Just forgotten what i wanted to ask you about..

For me personally, and this is going back a few years, Christianity helped me so much in dealing with the death of loved ones, most especially the death of my father when i was very young. It helped me tremendously with the harsh reality of that situation and gave me comfort. It was there for me when i needed it.

robindch

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I can however report that my final words, or what would have been my final words had I not gotten up in time were... "whhhheeeeeeeeeeee".

Weird. Two weeks back, I was over the Bay of Bengal in an A380 when it out of nowhere, hit the largest airpocket I've ever had the misfortune to experience. Freefall for what felt like ages, but was probably a second or two at most, then hit bottom and was pushed into the seat while the plane swerved to the left quite sharply. Cue the lady a row or two back to scream "Oh my god!", a minute or two of mild turbulence and then peace resumed, with the entire (full) plane eerily silent.

My initial thoughts were (a) crap, laptop's disk not gonna enjoy this (was doing a long compile at the time) and (b) "wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...."

irishh_bob

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain

yes but not existing before you were born required less preperation of the mind than not existing after you die

irishh_bob

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have thought about it often in the past and always came to the same conclusions.

Firstly that there is nothing one can do about it and so worrying about it just takes away from what you should be doing… which is living the life you have…. And using your thought processing power for more important tasks.

Secondly that the idea there is death and no after life actually makes life precious. I find the idea of an afterlife cheapens the life we have here as it is short, pointless and meaningless in comparison. Life is precious because it is the only one you will ever have. If things you do in life matter then they matter precisely because of the limited time you have to do it in.

On a slightly related note this is why I find the concepts in Christianity so comical. Aside from the fact there is no evidence for a god… the core idea of Christianity is that Christ somehow made a sacrifice for us, and that god “gave” us his only son.

However if you think about it god in the tales did no more than “lend” us a son. And Christ sacrificed nothing… he traded one short painful meaningless life for an eternal one of bliss, happiness and joy. Hardly a sacrifice is it? Sounds like a great trade to me and one few of us wouldn’t make. So what “sacrifice” was made here exactly??? I think it is an insult to our intelligence to call it a “sacrifice” and I think it an insult to those of our species who actually have gone so far as to give their life for a cause, person or ideal.

So I find in short (something I am not often) that the concept of death… far from being morbid or causing morbid thoughts in me…. Is actually a fuel for the joy I take out of, and value I put into, life. If you are worried about things you can not do or say after you are dead, then rather than worry about them… go say and do them now while you still can.

Seize the day.

+1 , what jesus did was no bigger than what a sizeable number of soldiers do when heading to war , only difference being most soldiers dont have the most powerfull guy in the universe planning the after party

marty1985

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So what “sacrifice” was made here exactly???

When looking at the story from a literary (not literal!) perspective, I've always thought of it as a sort of divine suicide, not so much "giving" a son, but the suicide of God Incarnate, although I know that gets me into theological and philosophical badlands.

The use of the word sacrifice would be crucial. There is a lot of symbolism involved. A priest who is his own sacrificial lamb, a lamb who is his own sacrifice, a father who is his own son, an Isaac who is his own Abraham, the whole thing is a blur of identities and is hard to make sense of. The question posed might also bring us into philosophical badlands that are worth avoiding here, plus it supposes that Heaven etc exists, in which case, what's the problem? In other words, relax.

ed2hands wrote: »

("the core idea of Christianity is that Christ somehow made a sacrifice for us, and that god “gave” us his only son.")
Would agree that that is a core idea, along with others. ****. Just forgotten what i wanted to ask you about..

For me personally, and this is going back a few years, Christianity helped me so much in dealing with the death of loved ones, most especially the death of my father when i was very young. It helped me tremendously with the harsh reality of that situation and gave me comfort. It was there for me when i needed it.

I think that's the main thing. There is always a degree of unknowing, it's part of the human condition. We don't know, and we might never know, but in that case we will never know that there is nothing. I don't think we can speak of evidence or certainties on this topic, because as Robert Bellah has pointed out "Those who feel they are most fully objective in their assessment of reality are most in the power of deep, unconscious fantasies."

It's one of those things you will think about eventually, when given a chair and time to sit down. It sure is hard not to think about it.

gawker

Liamario wrote: »

Rather than hijack a thread, I thought it would be an interesting question to ask people of similar thinking to myself.

I'm not afraid of death, but I do get emotional from morbid thoughts of leaving people behind or never getting to see or talk to my long suffering partner again.

How do my fellow non believers feel about this sort of scenario, or is it something you haven't even thought about.

I never taught about death much, really. Then two family members passed this year and I gave it a lot of thinking. I was glad that they both lived fulfilled and mostly happy lives. I was glad they were a part of a loving family and had created their own families too. I kinda looked at their life as a book and was happy they both had pages full of good stories and happy endings, even if the final ending doesn't bring much joy.

So, basically, their passing made me realize how important it is to enjoy life and to make others happy. In a sense I was inspired by their death to look at my own life and check my priorities. The last time we had a death in the family was when I was in school (Catholic) and I had tried to use that as a comfort blanket, but I found tragedy to be more deeply effecting as an atheist.

Roger Hassenforder

I like the thought of someone planting a tree (horse chestnut preferably) in my ashes, and for a couple of years until that dies, people can sit in the shade of it and think the cnut was useful for something after all.

Someone better plant that tree though..

Corkfeen

programsful wrote: »

Hi there, Speaking of death prediction, I find it really odd that one of the on-line death prediction services showed me the same death date that I was foretold in my dream about a year ago. http://yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html - I can’t explain this coincidence in any other way except that there must be some kind of magic involved here.

There's magical and supernatural forces on the internet now. :eek:

*Clears history*

Elliemental

I used to get a little unnerved by the thought of death. However, since my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, back in 2007, and I watched her stoicly fight until the bitter end, I find I do not fear death at all. My mother was a staunch Atheist, (Dad is too). There was no death bed conversion, and the subject of God only came up once, when she was planning her funeral. She made a point of arranging a completely religion-free funeral, (it was conducted by the Humanist Society).
Her fight taught me a lot. It taught me to stop worrying about the inevitable, and seize each day as it comes.

irishh_bob

Elliemental wrote: »

I used to get a little unnerved by the thought of death. However, since my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, back in 2007, and I watched her stoicly fight until the bitter end, I find I do not fear death at all. My mother was a staunch Atheist, (Dad is too). There was no death bed conversion, and the subject of God only came up once, when she was planning her funeral. She made a point of arranging a completely religion-free funeral, (it was conducted by the Humanist Society).
Her fight taught me a lot. It taught me to stop worrying about the inevitable, and seize each day as it comes.

do you need to be a member of the humanist society in order to arrange for a humanist - secular funeral service ?

Mistress 69

We will all unfortuneatley die, sorry, I know it's just life, .... the end bit. Always knew that, and while up to very recently, believed that an afterlife was on the cards..... what can I say.... maybe somewhere in not so many years....the 7 billion + people of the world will wake up and stop fighting over nothing..:)

Elliemental

irishh_bob wrote: »

do you need to be a member of the humanist society in order to arrange for a humanist - secular funeral service ?

No. We were not members of the Humanist Society, and they were more than happy to help us. This was in England, but I see no reason why it would be different in Ireland.

Pace2008

Crumbs22 wrote: »

..... died (((((
I always look here http://yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html
Death when it comes will have no denial.

programsful wrote: »

Hi there, Speaking of death prediction, I find it really odd that one of the on-line death prediction services showed me the same death date that I was foretold in my dream about a year ago. http://yourdeathdate.info/1/index.html - I can’t explain this coincidence in any other way except that there must be some kind of magic involved here.

Hi there, speaking of death prediction sites of which i've never heard, I find it really odd that two new users, each with only one post to their name, appear within a day of each other spamming the same link - I can’t explain this coincidence in any other way except that there must be some kind of shilling involved here.

Pace2008

WalterMitty wrote: »

The tought of being alive forever isnt very appealing. Could be extremely boring and painfull. Unless it was in a realm where time didnt really function like here in this universe.

Nah, if it was in some insanely beautiful place, and everyone you loved was around you, and it felt like you were orgasming and on MDMA the entire time, I could totally dig it.

zico10

Liamario wrote: »

Sorry, I don't think sadness is a good description, especially when the same people claim that they will meet each other again and be together for an eternity in infinite bliss.
You'd think they'd almost be jealous of the person for dying...

You can use as many cliches as you like, but for believers and non believers alike, funerals are sad occasions. Anybody who genuinely fails to understand why, must be suffering from psychopathy.

Liamario wrote: »

Because they know in their hearts that they won't see them again.

Most atheists would only claim that it's very, very, very, very unlikely they'll see each other again, but you know it for a fact. Do you?

Liamario wrote: »

Perhaps the gun is an extreme example. How about we exchange the gun for the offer of 100 million euro. How do you propose that would go down for so called catholics.
I won't continue this discussion in this thread, as it is off topic, but I will read any response

I think they're both poor examples. (Incindentally, in practise the first one is far more likely to happen). You can't change what someone genuinely believes no matter how much coercion is used. Persuasion might work on 'so called Catholics', but it would be by way of reasoned argument, not by financial reward.
It's no great revelation that many Catholics, are Catholic in name only. But at the same time it's also true to say, that some Catholics are sincere in their beliefs. And whether sincere or insincere, for all I care, they can say what they like about their god.

nozzferrahhtoo

ed2hands wrote: »

For me personally, and this is going back a few years, Christianity helped me so much in dealing with the death of loved ones

You may be one of the lucky ones then because I have seen that kind of "help" backfire horribly. I have seen people in grief and others would give them the "after life, better place" talk to sooth them.

However I have seen people who later lost their faith have to RE-grieve. The people they had lost they were essentially losing all over again. Worse the second round of grief is often worse than the first for a variety of reasons and because it is also coupled with a sense of betrayal at having been lied to.

I understand our need to comfort those in grief. However often lying to others to bring temporary comfort can do more harm. Grief is to be faced and dealt with, not brushed under a carpet of lies to burst through later when that carpet becomes threadbare.

robindch wrote: »

Cue the lady a row or two back to scream "Oh my god!"

I was on a plane back from Germany recently and a guy directly to my right was so stuck into his book that he had no idea we were landing and when the plane hit the run way he threw the book in the air and screamed "oh jeeeeesus". People as far away as 10 rows were in stitches.

marty1985 wrote: »

When looking at the story from a literary (not literal!) perspective, I've always thought of it as a sort of divine suicide

Hardly a suicide given he knew he would be back in three days. Its more like a "divine sleep in".

Whether you call it a sacrifice directly, or do some hand waving by calling it a symbolic sacrifice, the same problem lies before you. Nothing was actually sacrificed and anything the tales say Jesus did actually end up with him profiting from the events.

And as I say, I think this is an insult to those of our species who actually have sacrificed their lives for a cause, person or ideal. They did so with no such certainty of rewards, no promise of getting what they sacrificed three days later and no promise of being eternally praised for it by millions of followers. Asking us to call the actions of Jesus a sacrifice, symbolic or real, let alone to praise and worship him for it, is the deepest of insult and not one to be glossed over by throw away comments like "In other words, relax.".

robindch

programsful wrote: »

Speaking of death prediction[...] there must be some kind of magic involved here.

Crumbs22 wrote: »

Death when it comes will have no denial.

Indeed it won't. Both spam accounts are now perma-banned.

No flowers please.

The Mad Hatter

Mistress 69 wrote: »

it's just life, .... the end bit.

How profound:)

kylith

28064212 wrote: »

Does anyone else have moments when they look at the world around them and think this is the only thing that matters?

I like the Applied Anthropics theory, whereby the universe's crowning achievement and entire purpose was the eventual evolution of me

(kudos if you know what that reference is from without looking it up)

Are you the Senior Wrangler by any chance?

ed2hands

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You may be one of the lucky ones then because I have seen that kind of "help" backfire horribly. I have seen people in grief and others would give them the "after life, better place" talk to sooth them.

Well, it helped me a lot as i've said, and yes i feel i was lucky to have that help there. You've put the word help in inverted commas up there, but i can assure you that help i was given was very real at the time and am still thankful for it.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

However I have seen people who later lost their faith have to RE-grieve. The people they had lost they were essentially losing all over again. Worse the second round of grief is often worse than the first for a variety of reasons and because it is also coupled with a sense of betrayal at having been lied to.

I understand our need to comfort those in grief. However often lying to others to bring temporary comfort can do more harm. Grief is to be faced and dealt with, not brushed under a carpet of lies to burst through later when that carpet becomes threadbare.

I would hazard and indeed hope that i'm in the vast majority compared to the people you speak of who now feel that they were betrayed and and lied to during their grief.

So just to emphasise, the couching this situation of grieving a loved one in phrasing like being betrayed and lied to doesn't really reflect any reality in relation to my personal situation. My uncle actually said the funeral mass, and i'm sure he certainly was not betraying or lying to me or my family. He was/is a man of strong faith and believes what he believes to be true.

Maybe a small minority of those people with very strong opinions against religion would fail to appreciate this though, and their views would be clouded somewhat by their own animosity.
So if someone were to casually paint people of faith in these terms, ie liars, on the basis of their beliefs, it is something i will always reject as inaccurate and untrue.

nozzferrahhtoo

ed2hands wrote: »

I would hazard and indeed hope that i'm in the vast majority compared to the people you speak of who now feel that they were betrayed and and lied to during their grief.

One would hope so as I would not wish pain on anyone even if their method of alleviating that pain is brushing it under a carpet of lies.

However regardless of the numbers I am still not compelled to think that lying to people to help them bypass the grieving process and attain temporary comfort is justifiable.... especially if that justification is solely based on the odds being good the lies will hold compared to those where it did not. Peoples well being is not something to be put on a roulette wheel.

There simply is no evidence, data, argument or reasons on offer to suggest there is a god or an after life. So telling people such may not fit the pure definition of lying, but it surely is not far off.

And that is without even bringing up the fact that religion thrives on this insidious methodology of selling its ideas to the vulnerable, needy and desperate. People in grief are vulnerable, and as such clearly a prime target for selling religious ideas to... alas something many of our religions are all too often happy to do.

marty1985

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And as I say, I think this is an insult to those of our species who actually have sacrificed their lives for a cause, person or ideal. They did so with no such certainty of rewards, no promise of getting what they sacrificed three days later and no promise of being eternally praised for it by millions of followers. Asking us to call the actions of Jesus a sacrifice, symbolic or real, let alone to praise and worship him for it, is the deepest of insult and not one to be glossed over by throw away comments like "In other words, relax.".

The primal scene of Christianity is the crucifixion, the sacrifice in theological terms, but it has lost its ability to shock. It's worth remembering that the crucifix represents a deity executed naked as a criminal, unrecognised, judicially tried, officially condemned, tortured, killed. While some might balk at the idea, the paradoxical feature of the Christian myth has lodged something deep in the political consciousness of the West, a readiness to believe that the loser may be the real winner unrecognised. If the myth is true, he experienced the human condition at its worst. You are right to call his a painful, meaningless life. The only meaning is in his death. Read mythologically, his only purpose was to die. An implication of this "sacrifice", is that in the West no regime may declare itself above review. All power is conditional, and when the powerless rise, God himself may be among them. Religion is to you an oppressor, but it works best as a liberator. The divinization of the victim is the wellspring of revolution. It is this that has been lodged in our political consciousness that often leads people to die for a cause or an ideal. It's a dual edged sword. We admire someone who dies for a cause or an ideal, but when they take their strength from religion, they are demented, deluded, idiotic...

ed2hands wrote: »

Well, it helped me a lot as i've said, and yes i feel i was lucky to have that help there. You've put the word help in inverted commas up there, but i can assure you that help i was given was very real at the time and am still thankful for it.

Again, I think this is the main thing. Whether it's a placebo effect is irrelevant, whether it's "lies" is irrelevant. The need for people to have something to assuage grief is very real. I have seen this in my own family, a young person killed in horrific circumstances, his mother beating her chest reciting prayers, his father falling to his knees on hearing the news and immediately saying "Jesus", me standing there with my mouth hung open, useless and dumb. Grief is a strange beast, and our attempts to rationalise it into a 5 stage process doesn't always work. Some people survive grief because of religion. It doesn't mean religion has any truth. If the argument is about whether religion helps people suffering from grief, I would say in most cases it does, naturally. Everything else is commentary.

Sarky

marty1985 wrote: »

It's worth remembering that the crucifix represents a deity executed naked as a criminal, unrecognised, judicially tried, officially condemned, tortured, killed.

None of which really matters when he knew he'd be up and about again a few days later, fully clothed, no criminal record, recognised and completely untortured.

If the myth is true, he experienced the human condition at its worst. You are right to call his a painful, meaningless life. The only meaning is in his death.

This was supposedly done without any of the fear of death that every human has in such situations. Remember, Jesus didn't have faith. He had KNOWLEDGE. None of the doubts or worries even the most faithful human has when they're looking at death. If the resurrection and eternal paradise thing is correct, it's much closer to taking some bad-tasting medicine than making a grand sacrifice. The whole thing is cheapened.


Interesting point about the ingraining of rooting for the underdog and willingness to die for an ideal, although it does happen elsewhere too. Buddhist/Islamic/Marxist revolutions have occurred, and I rather doubt the Roman Empire was without its uprisings, and there were certainly several different subjugated faiths within those borders. Do you think it's just more pronounced over this way? Or geared towards a cetain type of revolution?

People fall back on ritual a lot when grief is involved. Some people throw themselves into a book, or work, some people fall back on chanting prayers they never really thought about at other times. Some people have a great big party to celebrate the life of the one they just lost (and that's the way I'm certainly going to be sent off or I'm going to come back and give my family such a haunting.)

Coping methods are plenty varied, and most end up in the same place: getting over the loss. I dislike the religious ways, myself, because it has this delicious carrot of "they're not REALLY gone" dangling in front of you for the rest of your life. I don't think it's as healthy as accepting that someone is gone, apart from the consequences of their words and deeds, and what they left behind.

dmw07

ed2hands wrote: »

Christianity helped me so much in dealing with the death of loved ones, most especially the death of my father when i was very young. It helped me tremendously with the harsh reality of that situation and gave me comfort. It was there for me when i needed it.

It's strange how a thing can help one person, and hinder another.

Reading the bible to get over a death is what initially turned me away from religion and christianity. I was 12 years old, the eldest child in my family and about to bury my 11 year old brother. The third sibling i witnessed being lowered into the ground in those 12 years.

I never found one word of solace nor guidance from religion and in particular when someone religious told me that god had a bigger plan and really loved me, i wanted to literally maim them and then ask, is this in his plan?

Thankfully i soon found evolution and it all started from there for me.
People die, i can live with that.
People die because some never before seen god in the sky controls everything.... that is a lot harder to stomach.

nozzferrahhtoo

marty1985 wrote: »

The only meaning is in his death.

Then there IS no meaning given the fairy tale states he came back three days later and now lives on eternally. That is what I mean when I say the idea of eternal life cheapens the idea of life here, and certainly of any sacrifice of life here.

If the Christians want a story worth telling get them to change it to a story where Jesus was offered eternal life, bliss and praise but he turned it down and accepted True Death as atonement for our sins. Now THAT would be a story of sacrifice. The story we are being hawked now is... as I said... an insult to both our intelligence... and to those of our species who actually have given their lives for a cause, ideal or person.... and did so with not a single one of the guarantees afforded the Jesus character in the tales.

In fact I doubt there are many of our species at all.... were they given 100% certainty of the rewards.... that would not do just what Jesus did in the tale. And most of them would not be doing it thinking "I am making a sacrifice" they would be doing it thinking "I am on to a winner here.".

Of course we are arguing over a fairy tale here as there is no evidence on offer any of this actually happened as told, but even symbolically I find no way to even begin to call the actions in the tale a "sacrifice".

marty1985

Sarky wrote: »

None of which really matters when he knew he'd be up and about again a few days later, fully clothed, no criminal record, recognised and completely untortured.

That depends. It's really a theological problem perhaps suited to the Christianity forum. It would matter if he was fully human, and suffered in his human nature the same way you or I would. It is a complicated issue, but any answer would have to include the supposed agony in the garden, and the fear of abandonment when on the cross.

This was supposedly done without any of the fear of death that every human has in such situations. Remember, Jesus didn't have faith. He had KNOWLEDGE. None of the doubts or worries even the most faithful human has when they're looking at death. If the resurrection and eternal paradise thing is correct, it's much closer to taking some bad-tasting medicine than making a grand sacrifice. The whole thing is cheapened.

Again, I don't know if it was without fear, because in some accounts he did show extreme fear, in others he didn't. He also displayed a lack of certainty. It guess it requires a separate thread as it is quite complicated to discuss within this one, but I don't have any answers, I can only speculate or give my interpretation when looking at the story from a literary viewpoint. My own interpretation was that he was a criminal, but perhaps every criminal was once a victim, and the infinite regression of this cycle leads to God himself. He would therefore have to take responsibility for his own guilt. He would have done so in his human nature. I'm not sure of any theological viewpoints that would agree with this.

Interesting point about the ingraining of rooting for the underdog and willingness to die for an ideal, although it does happen elsewhere too. Buddhist/Islamic/Marxist revolutions have occurred, and I rather doubt the Roman Empire was without its uprisings, and there were certainly several different subjugated faiths within those borders. Do you think it's just more pronounced over this way? Or geared towards a cetain type of revolution?

The divinity in disguise motif is certainly not unique to Christianity. The underdog motif might be. I think only a non-Western eye can see the crucifix for what it really is, as something violently obscene, perhaps akin to displaying a body swollen and distorted hanging on the end of a rope, head hanging above a broken neck. In other cultures, such as Buddhism, it's common that good people end their lives with a good death. I've talked to Buddhists who expressed horror at seeing a corpse displayed as a religious icon. For some, someone dying in such a hideous way could only be a criminal.

Religion is a source of strength for most religious people, perhaps this is why we invented religion. This strength can come in a time of grief. It can also come in a time of oppression.

As his executioners led him to his death, he is supposed to have said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." Whatever scribe wrote that, was inspired. Wherever that line spread, human authority weakens its grip on unimpeachable legitimacy. Any criminal may be Christ, any prosecutor Pilate. In my opinion, this might make the Christian myth unique from the others you mention in the breadth of its political influence. That it happens in other religions too, is for me a sign of the power of religion when deployed in the right way.

mikhail

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Then there IS no meaning given the fairy tale states he came back three days later and now lives on eternally. That is what I mean when I say the idea of eternal life cheapens the idea of life here, and certainly of any sacrifice of life here.

If the Christians want a story worth telling get them to change it to a story where Jesus was offered eternal life, bliss and praise but he turned it down and accepted True Death as atonement for our sins. Now THAT would be a story of sacrifice. The story we are being hawked now is... as I said... an insult to both our intelligence... and to those of our species who actually have given their lives for a cause, ideal or person.... and did so with not a single one of the guarantees afforded the Jesus character in the tales.

In fact I doubt there are many of our species at all.... were they given 100% certainty of the rewards.... that would not do just what Jesus did in the tale. And most of them would not be doing it thinking "I am making a sacrifice" they would be doing it thinking "I am on to a winner here.".

Of course we are arguing over a fairy tale here as there is no evidence on offer any of this actually happened as told, but even symbolically I find no way to even begin to call the actions in the tale a "sacrifice".

I don't know; I reckon that if I were an all-powerful, all-knowing being, spending 33 years in a decaying sack of meat with a couple of pounds of goo for a brain would seem like one hell of a sacrifice. I reckon the Christians have their mythology all wrong. Christ's great sacrifice for them is not that he died, but that he came at all.

nozzferrahhtoo

mikhail wrote: »

I don't know; I reckon that if I were an all-powerful, all-knowing being, spending 33 years in a decaying sack of meat with a couple of pounds of goo for a brain would seem like one hell of a sacrifice. I reckon the Christians have their mythology all wrong. Christ's great sacrifice for them is not that he died, but that he came at all.

Hah that is funny Though if I were to reply to you as if I thought you were serious I would point out we may be underestimating how insignificant 33 years is compared to infinite eternity.

I dunno, I just think the story could be better. Like if he was offered eternal bliss and turned it down in favor of the true death, or hell, THAT would have been a sacrifice. Or if he did not know he was the son of god and had sacrificed himself only to have it revealed to him later he was god.... that even would have been better at least. Or... as you said... if he agreed to be a sack of meet for eternity, constantly reviving in some kind of Doctor Who fashion... this is a sacrifice.

But the tale as it stands.... the guy got a good deal.

Of course all this has kind of derailed the thread, my point initially was just that the idea of an afterlife cheapens this life in my eyes and I think on the topic of atheism and death that realising there is no after life makes THIS life precious and for me is a source of the joy I get from it and the value I put upon it. This, of course, is the opposite that theists think when they portray atheism as a hopeless and nihilistic philosophy.

DarkJager

I've thought about this quite a bit and can honestly say imo ,once this life is done, that's it. There's no magical playground in the clouds or rebirth, just your living shell in a wooden box in the ground. It's extremely morbid to think like that but it's the cold truth.

I do believe however that the memory of the dead is what you should keep. Don't fool yourself thinking about heaven or hell, but focus on the positives and memories of that person. The impact they had on your life and the great time you shared. The way they made you feel and the human bond you shared. You don't need ideas of some fantasy otherworld to do that.

ed2hands

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

There simply is no evidence, data, argument or reasons on offer to suggest there is a god or an after life. So telling people such may not fit the pure definition of lying, but it surely is not far off.

Well no, i wouldn't agree with that at all. For me, it's got nothing at all to do with being a liar or lying; simple reason being that that person firmly believes something to be true. To say that it's the case is misrepresentitave.

A person of faith such as my uncle could not be described as a liar or approaching being a liar for holding to his personal religious beliefs. No more than he would call you a liar for having your own athiest (lack of) belief. You can be of the opinion that he is wrong of course, as he thinks you are i'm sure.
You see you've appointed your athiest position as being the one of truth for you, which is fine and dandy. But then by default you're designating those who disagree with that view as being a liar or at least coming close to being one?
Oh no that doesn't fly at all for me. Not in this context.