Pay and display and clamped

mathie

Got clamped by NCPS
Parked in dart station.
Paid, displayed and clamped!
Ticket was on dash but door closed and blew it onto ground of car.

Ive the ticket still.

Is an appeal worthless?
Is there an independent appeals board?

Thanks

markpb

You can appeal to NCPS and then to the "Independent" Parking Appeals Service (www.ncps.ie/ipas.pdf) but I suspect NCPS won't listen because they'll say it's your responsibility to display the ticket. I wouldn't waste my money on IPAS, it's not what most sane people would call independent.

foggy_lad

mathie wrote: »

Got clamped by NCPS
Parked in dart station.
Paid, displayed and clamped!
Ticket was on dash but door closed and blew it onto ground of car.

Ive the ticket still.

Is an appeal worthless?
Is there an independent appeals board?

Thanks

You could have got that ticket from someone else, your ticket was not clearly visible so you got clamped, as has happened before any appeal will most likely be rejected.

Cookie_Monster

NCPS are not legally entitled to clamp your car. Should have just removed it (without damage of course ), but you've paid now so too late IMO.

mathie

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NCPS are not legally entitled to clamp your car. Should have just removed it (without damage of course ), but you've paid now so too late IMO.

How do you remove them without damaging them?

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NCPS are not legally entitled to clamp your car. Should have just removed it (without damage of course ), but you've paid now so too late IMO.

Not true. NCPS are under license from Irish Rail which means they're operating under Irish Rail SI and bylaws. My understanding is that this gives them the same legal authority to clamp as a local authority like DCC. The same applies to APCOA when clamping at Luas carparks.

mickydoomsux

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NCPS are not legally entitled to clamp your car. Should have just removed it (without damage of course ), but you've paid now so too late IMO.

That's an urban legend that gets bandied about a good bit.

January

It's Pay & Display... you didn't display so no point in appealing.

L1011

mickydoomsux wrote: »

That's an urban legend that gets bandied about a good bit.

The Road Traffic Act isn't an urban legend, however as markpb says, Irish Rail as a state agency have the authority to approve clamping under the RTA.

Shopping centres, apartment blocks, etc do not. There is no urban legend for these, clampers are breaking the law in these scenarios.

schemingbohemia

MYOB wrote: »

The Road Traffic Act isn't an urban legend, however as markpb says, Irish Rail as a state agency have the authority to approve clamping under the RTA.

Shopping centres, apartment blocks, etc do not. There is no urban legend for these, clampers are breaking the law in these scenarios.

Does the RTA not apply to public roads only? The latter examples you quote are on private land so the RTA rules don't apply.

markpb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Does the RTA not apply to public roads only? The latter examples you quote are on private land so the RTA rules don't apply.

It applies to public roads and also to private roads to which the public have unfettered access. Gated apartment blocks and other private lands aren't covered so clamping is presumably legal there.

mathie

When the guy came to take the clamp off her goes

"No ticket eh?"
"Well the missus bought one but managed to let it blow onto the floor"
"Sure you should appeal. 60 - 65% of appeals get some money back"

Do these guys actually believe the 5hit they peddle?
Or is it just something they tell themselves to sleep at night?

bk

markpb wrote: »

It applies to public roads and also to private roads to which the public have unfettered access. Gated apartment blocks and other private lands aren't covered so clamping is presumably legal there.

Interesting, we have clamping in my apartment building, it is private, but not gated. The road ends in a cul-de-sac.

So you are saying this is illegal and they must remove the clamp at no cost?
Or that you are entitled to remove the clamp, without damaging it? How would you do that?

What legislation is this covered under?

Stark

You're entitled to remove the clamp without damaging it. I've heard of people damaging the clamp while removing it and nothing being done as well. Easier for the clamping companies to fly under the radar than risk a court case. Any consequences are between you and your management company, no legalities involved.

After being in a situation before where I was clamped solely due to a ****-up on the clamping company's part (they thought I was parked in someone else's space when it was in fact my own) and receiving a PFO when I tried to appeal, I'd definitely be going down the removing it myself route if it happened again.

Grolschevik

Clamping on private land seems to be a legal grey area, and I don't think any definitive answer is out there in the absence of a court case. There are discussions of this over in legal discussion, and recently someone mentioned that there might be case law on this soon.

In the meantime, there's an article on the issue by a barrister in this, at p30:
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/March2011.pdf

Some quotes, which are not exactly unequivocal (emphasis added):

"Clamping on private land, however, does not clearly have a lawful basis, in contrast to the above. A vehicle parked without the permission of the landowner is clearly a trespassing chattel, but does that give the landowner or their agent a right to fix an immobilisation device?"

"It appears, therefore, that there are legal difficulties in engaging in the practice of private clamping under Irish law..."

BrianD

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NCPS are not legally entitled to clamp your car. Should have just removed it (without damage of course ), but you've paid now so too late IMO.

They are if that's the T&C's of using the car park.

However as NCPS is a private company retained by a publicly owned company, the grounds for appeal should be documented.

Every year, DCC produce a detailed report on their operations regarding pay and display and detail all the appeals and the success rate of each. These have turned into almost rules of thumb for an appeal.

For example, the OP's situation would have probably got a 50% refund from DSPS. My view is that you should get a 100% refund if you can produce the ticket.

bk

Grolschevik wrote: »

"Clamping on private land, however, does not clearly have a lawful basis, in contrast to the above. A vehicle parked without the permission of the landowner is clearly a trespassing chattel, but does that give the landowner or their agent a right to fix an immobilisation device?"

I'd imagine it gets even murkier so if you clamp someone who actually owns an apartment in the building and is therefore a member of the building management company.

schemingbohemia

BrianD wrote: »

They are if that's the T&C's of using the car park.

However as NCPS is a private company retained by a publicly owned company, the grounds for appeal should be documented.

Every year, DCC produce a detailed report on their operations regarding pay and display and detail all the appeals and the success rate of each. These have turned into almost rules of thumb for an appeal.

For example, the OP's situation would have probably got a 50% refund from DSPS. My view is that you should get a 100% refund if you can produce the ticket.

What's to stop the OP or someone in a similar position to hang around and ask someone leaving the car park for their ticket? As has been pointed out it's Pay And Display not just pay and hope the person can see the ticket. I'd say the OP won't make the same mistake again. I know from reading on here that I always check the ticket stays on the dash when I close the door.