Crisis - Inside the Cowen Government

Alibaba

Just after watching this programme. My God, But these guys really wrecked our country when you think of it. Brian Cowen was a disaster for this country. The carry on of them - scandalous..

mallachyrivers

Sure isn't that the way its gone!

washman3

And the real rats are the ones that are speaking up now, O'Rourke,O'Dea,Martin,McGrath,Calleary et al. they had all the information at the time,yet voted in favour of everything that strangled the ordinary Irish citizen. Rats of the highest order.!!
The country was well and truely banjaxed when Cowen took over, he was simply out of his depth along with his finance minister Lenihan.

Bannasidhe

washman3 wrote: »

And the real rats are the ones that are speaking up now, O'Rourke,O'Dea,Martin,McGrath,Calleary et al. they had all the information at the time,yet voted in favour of everything that strangled the ordinary Irish citizen. Rats of the highest order.!!
The country was well and truely banjaxed when Cowen took over, he was simply out of his depth along with his finance minister Lenihan.

It was a bit Night of the Long Knives alright as they all sought to distance themselves by claiming they were kept in the dark and not consulted. IMHO by sitting around the Cabinet table doing their impressions of highly paid nodding dogs the likes of O'Dea, Martin etc are just as culpable as Cowan and Ahern. As for the rest of FF's parliamentary party and those ministers of State and backbenchers we saw put the boot in tonight - they seem to forget that 71 of them supported Cowen when Martin challenged him for the leadership last Jan.

Alibaba

washman3 wrote: »

And the real rats are the ones that are speaking up now, O'Rourke,O'Dea,Martin,McGrath,Calleary et al. they had all the information at the time,yet voted in favour of everything that strangled the ordinary Irish citizen. Rats of the highest order.!!
The country was well and truely banjaxed when Cowen took over, he was simply out of his depth along with his finance minister Lenihan.

Every blooming one of them starting with Bertie... And finishing with 'The Bar Lobby' They were a disgrace !

nesf

It reinforced my view that they were bounced into it. Rush job, cornering other Cabinet members for a Yes, little debate or analysis outside of the bankers etc.

People blame Politicians for this but honestly I think it was the very system that was at fault, once the Cabinet announced it it wasn't going to be gone over inch by inch by an independent body and there lies the problem in all this.

thebman

nesf wrote: »

It reinforced my view that they were bounced into it. Rush job, cornering other Cabinet members for a Yes, little debate or analysis outside of the bankers etc.

People blame Politicians for this but honestly I think it was the very system that was at fault, once the Cabinet announced it it wasn't going to be gone over inch by inch by an independent body and there lies the problem in all this.

In fairness what would be the point in showing them it, they wouldn't understand what they were reading most of them.

The scapegoating was good for a laugh in that program though. I especially liked where Michael Martin basically said that he was against the give away budgets as that was not what the core of FF was about.

Good one Michael, it is what all political parties are about when they have money.

Noreen1

nesf wrote: »

It reinforced my view that they were bounced into it. Rush job, cornering other Cabinet members for a Yes, little debate or analysis outside of the bankers etc.

People blame Politicians for this but honestly I think it was the very system that was at fault, once the Cabinet announced it it wasn't going to be gone over inch by inch by an independent body and there lies the problem in all this.

I suspect that there is some truth in that, but it doesn't change the fact that these were the people entrusted to govern the Country - and they failed the electorate dramatically.

No amount of pleading "It was all Cowens fault, sure wasn't he a big bully!" will change that.

Call me a cynic, if you will, but I sat through that entire programme thinking that the politicians interviewed were trying to excuse themselves to the electorate with a view to their own political future.

The truth is, none of the FF party challenged the de-regulation of the banks.
None of them seemed to have any awareness of the economic difficulty that the Country was in.

That clearly shows that they were asleep at the wheel.
No amount of bleating "It wasn't my fault!" will change that.

Having said that, there is certainly room for improvement within the system.
Removal of the party whip system, ensuring greater distribution of power among all TDs, and greater public accountabilty are all issues that warrant scrutiny, imo.

It is significant that not one politician mentioned any of those issues last night.
Each and every one of them showed the exact same lack of leadership ability that they showed while in Government.

Note to self: Take careful note of leadership ability, as well as intelligence/morals when choosing who to vote for in the next election.

HellFireClub

washman3 wrote: »

And the real rats are the ones that are speaking up now, O'Rourke,O'Dea,Martin,McGrath,Calleary et al. they had all the information at the time,yet voted in favour of everything that strangled the ordinary Irish citizen. Rats of the highest order.!!
The country was well and truely banjaxed when Cowen took over, he was simply out of his depth along with his finance minister Lenihan.

They should air on a follow up documentary next week showing all the same gutter rats like Mary Hanafin, Willie, O' Dea, Eamon O' Cuiv, Mary Coughlan, John Curran, claiming now that they were not happy with how this national incident was managed in terms of the liabilities that we were being bullied into giving, but next week they should show the footage of every single one of these incompetent wasters, all standing by their man shoulder to shoulder only a year ago, when everyone else knew he was an incompetent buffoon who ran the country from the Dail bar and that we shouldn't have been guaranteeing unsecured bondholders of bust banks like Anglo that we going to be wound down anyway. You are at nothing as a country when you are using tax income to pay for the private mistakes of private businesses that took a bad punt back in 2006 or whenever.

legendary.xix

It was another terrible programme. Why does RTE continue with these doom and gloom documentaries? The Frontline and Prime-Time are enough for focussing on issues of the day that need to be discussed.

FGR

This all started when Charlie McCreevy got the boot into Europe for not dishing out the tax cuts.

Things may still be pretty bad now but the mantra of austerity would be far less by now.

bcmf

I hope RTE repeat that programme a day or two before the next general election. Just to remind those who are forgetting who the real culprits are for this mess.

Bannasidhe

legendary.xix wrote: »

It was another terrible programme. Why does RTE continue with these doom and gloom documentaries? The Frontline and Prime-Time are enough for focussing on issues of the day that need to be discussed.

I see your point - but I do think there is a place for documentaries which show how things happened - which outline and discuss the cause/effect. 'Something' went very wrong at the heart of government in this country. The dominant political party in the State - which formed the government for 3/4's of the State's existence - imploded at the very moment of our greatest crises. Why?

What I found interesting was that the tattered remnants of FF seem more concerned with playing the blame game - it was all Bertie/ Brian - while distancing themselves by invoking the Bart Simpson defence - 'Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove a thing'.

Seems to me that no-one involved in government has learned a blasted thing and they are all more interested in the optics of blame then taking any kind of personal responsibility for their decisions.

FF in government insisted it was Lehman's fault.
Then it was the IMF/ECB's fault.

FF in opposition insist it was Cowen's fault.

FG and LP in opposition insisted it was FFs fault.

FG/LP in government insist its FFs fault - with a side order of IMF/ECB.

professore

To be fair, all the European leaders are no better, except maybe Angela Merkel. Through Eurobonds and similar nonsense they are trying to force the Germans to guarantee the rest of the Eurozone, but she is smart enough not to go for it.

We all know FF and the Greens screwed the country - but during each election FG and Labour were falling over themselves to cut taxes and raise spending in
their election manifestos too.

Whatever about the ethics of the Anglo unsecured bondholders, I think the Government have no latitude on that one or Europe will squash them.

What I want to know is what have we learned and what are we doing to fix things so it doesn't happen again?

Where is the regulation to stop the banks doing the same thing again in future?

Now that we own the banks why are they still not lending to SMEs?

Where is the plan for economic growth - the only way out of this mess?

Why have the senior civil servants who advised the last govt not been swept out of their jobs with no golden handshakes?

Why are the current govt backing a man for a European job whose department made a € 3.6 billion error, and oversaw the blatantly obvious collapse in unsustainable property sales tax revenues ?

who_ru

legendary.xix wrote: »

It was another terrible programme. Why does RTE continue with these doom and gloom documentaries? The Frontline and Prime-Time are enough for focussing on issues of the day that need to be discussed.

i tend to agree - we didn't learn anything we didn't already know, it just gave some FF spoofers an opportunity to give a bart simpson like explanation of events...a la 'it wasn't me or i swear i didn't want it to happen'

we have the naked presidential election up next on RTE - FFS! what's the point it's bloody over and no one cares anymore.

washman3

legendary.xix wrote: »

It was another terrible programme. Why does RTE continue with these doom and gloom documentaries? The Frontline and Prime-Time are enough for focussing on issues of the day that need to be discussed.

Wrong on every count.! this programme and others like it should be aired and repeated time and time again. no opportunity should ever be missed to ram it down the throats of these spoofers who destroyed this country.
And the same goes for there apologists who still try to justify it and avert blame elsewhere.

Bannasidhe

Did anyone hear Martin on Drivetime talking about the failure of leadership in Europe? Seriously - what planet are these people on?:eek:

washman3

i did. unbelievable.!! what really amazes me is how spoofers like him still actually attract apologists. :mad:

thebman

Only caught some of it but it seemed like it was an attempt to reboot what is left of FF to me.

They were allowed claim they had nothing to do with it and it was all Cowen without any critical analysis.

I wouldn't describe that as a documentary myself but a PR piece for FF.

Bannasidhe

thebman wrote: »

Only caught some of it but it seemed like it was an attempt to reboot what is left of FF to me.

They were allowed claim they had nothing to do with it and it was all Cowen without any critical analysis.

I wouldn't describe that as a documentary myself but a PR piece for FF.

If it was it seriously backfired! Most of the comments I managed to hear today (Liveline was on in the background ) were that it was a hatchet job on Cowen and the rest of them were just as liable. One man began with a rant on how the programme treated Cowan so I did think - 'eh up - an FF apologist - engage sneer mode' but when Joe asked him if he was FF - the man went off about them. His point was the likes of Hanafin were showing themselves up to be nothing but spineless backstabbers who were content to play along when it suited their purpose and are now bleating they weren't kept informed.

A PR disaster for the new improved FF me thinks.

Mehole ain't the master of optics he seems to think he is....

nesf

thebman wrote: »

I wouldn't describe that as a documentary myself but a PR piece for FF.

I disagree, it shows how inept and unsuitable the previous FF Government was. The only party doing any bit better from it would be the Greens given how far they were from the table making the decisions.

Alibaba

The Cowen Government was a shambles....an absolute shambles from the word go. He brought in an Incompetent Mary Coughlan as Tanaiste :rolleyes:.The Bull (O'Donoghue) swanning around the world at the taxpayers expense... Dempsey, another inompetent Minister ; And that's just for starters. They were probably the worst bunch ever elected to office in this country. So useless that half of them hadn't the balls to stand before the country for re election and waltzed off with their big fat pensions and hand outs and left the rest of us up s### creek. The whole lot of them should be tried for crimes against this State .

zootroid

professore wrote: »

To be fair, all the European leaders are no better, except maybe Angela Merkel. Through Eurobonds and similar nonsense they are trying to force the Germans to guarantee the rest of the Eurozone, but she is smart enough not to go for it.

We all know FF and the Greens screwed the country - but during each election FG and Labour were falling over themselves to cut taxes and raise spending in
their election manifestos too.

Whatever about the ethics of the Anglo unsecured bondholders, I think the Government have no latitude on that one or Europe will squash them.

What I want to know is what have we learned and what are we doing to fix things so it doesn't happen again?

Where is the regulation to stop the banks doing the same thing again in future?

Now that we own the banks why are they still not lending to SMEs?

Where is the plan for economic growth - the only way out of this mess?

Why have the senior civil servants who advised the last govt not been swept out of their jobs with no golden handshakes?

Why are the current govt backing a man for a European job whose department made a € 3.6 billion error, and oversaw the blatantly obvious collapse in unsustainable property sales tax revenues ?

Exactly, and what happened to the department of finance not being fit for purpose? The same lack of accountability is still there for all to see

bleg

Recorded it last night and watching it now. It's like a bad dream.

Bannasidhe

bleg wrote: »

Recorded it last night and watching it now. It's like a bad dream.

*closes eyes really really tight and wishes its all just a bad dream bleg is having!!!!*

ILikeBananas

I thought it was really telling that the only FF people who came on were people who see a future for themselves in politics. None of the retirees featured with the exception of that old insufferable media whore, Mary O' Rourke.

nesf

ILikeBananas wrote: »

None of the retirees featured with the exception of that old insufferable media whore, Mary O' Rourke.

I thought she was fairly good at it, extremely blunt and to the point on Cowen's failings.

fly_agaric

ForegoneReality wrote: »

This all started when Charlie McCreevy got the boot into Europe for not dishing out the tax cuts.

Things may still be pretty bad now but the mantra of austerity would be far less by now.

Why do you think Charlie McCreevy (...incentives for developers, deregulation, the decentralisation + ssia vote buying schemes) would have saved us from ourselves?

Bannasidhe

fly_agaric wrote: »

Why do you think Charlie McCreevy (...incentives for developers, deregulation, the decentralisation + ssia vote buying schemes) would have saved us from ourselves?

He would if we were horse trainers.

Reign

FF appear to be banking on people forgetting about their complete mess up come the next general election.

Sadly I have a feeling that a large proportion of the populace will fall into that trap.

One has to wonder how this debacle has been carrying on without a single politician called to task on it. Public enquiry or not.

The Scientician

There's not enough rope to hang them all with.

jank

nesf wrote: »

I thought she was fairly good at it, extremely blunt and to the point on Cowen's failings.

Maybe but there is now a concerted effort to create a martyr out of Lenihan. These boyos are trying to re-write the history books. Dont forget who her Nephew is. Its plain for all to see that FF are try to exercise the ghosts of the past with this documentary. Sickening behavior!

dRNk SAnTA

I'm in Australia so haven't seen the programme but I'd just like to point out the hypocracy of former FF ministers and TDs coming out and bashing Cowen, Ahern, etc long after the event.

These people were parliamentarians and full members of government during the whole period. Not only did they sit idly by but they actively voted to pass legislation such as the restrictions on freedom of information requests, the watering down of the "Part 5" development requirements and all the other acts that were passed over the years to protect and benefit powerful lobbies.

Not a peep out of Mary O' Rourke and the rest about any of it back then. They can blame the Taoisigh but at the end of the day, they were paid by the public to serve the public and was it too much to ask for the occasional conscientious objection from one of them? Take Hanafin for example, even in the very final days of govt, she refused to say which way she voted in the party's Motion of Confidence in Cowen, even though every one knew she was vying to be his replacement!!

I really hope there will be a sea change from the "say-nothing foot soliders" of Fianna Fail to a generation of more vocal TDs who are more willing to challenge party orthadoxy. I was slightly encouraged by the Labour and FG MEPs who came out yesterday against the govt's decision to send the fella from dept of finance over to europe. a tiny step in right direction.

books4sale

Charlie McCreevy

Hang 'em High

:cool:

bamboozle

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

I'm in Australia so haven't seen the programme but I'd just like to point out the hypocracy of former FF ministers and TDs coming out and bashing Cowen, Ahern, etc long after the event.

These people were parliamentarians and full members of government during the whole period. Not only did they sit idly by but they actively voted to pass legislation such as the restrictions on freedom of information requests, the watering down of the "Part 5" development requirements and all the other acts that were passed over the years to protect and benefit powerful lobbies.

Not a peep out of Mary O' Rourke and the rest about any of it back then. They can blame the Taoisigh but at the end of the day, they were paid by the public to serve the public and was it too much to ask for the occasional conscientious objection from one of them? Take Hanafin for example, even in the very final days of govt, she refused to say which way she voted in the party's Motion of Confidence in Cowen, even though every one knew she was vying to be his replacement!!

I really hope there will be a sea change from the "say-nothing foot soliders" of Fianna Fail to a generation of more vocal TDs who are more willing to challenge party orthadoxy. I was slightly encouraged by the Labour and FG MEPs who came out yesterday against the govt's decision to send the fella from dept of finance over to europe. a tiny step in right direction.

agreed, some of the former minister coming out on that programme placing all the blame at cowan's feet, they were minister's in the national govt yet were unable to voice their opinions, at least Mattie McGrath walked from FF the rest of them were happy to stay on for the ride. Even less respect for Hanifan, Martin, O'Dea than i thought was possible.

pragmatic1

Reign wrote: »

FF appear to be banking on people forgetting about their complete mess up come the next general election.

Sadly I have a feeling that a large proportion of the populace will fall into that trap.

One has to wonder how this debacle has been carrying on without a single politician called to task on it. Public enquiry or not.

I really hope people dont forget what FF have done. They've brought shame to this country. If they're ever in government again I'll leave the country because then the Irish people will deserve all they get.

thebman

nesf wrote: »

I disagree, it shows how inept and unsuitable the previous FF Government was. The only party doing any bit better from it would be the Greens given how far they were from the table making the decisions.

That is true except they blamed it all on Cowen without any sort of analysis on what the other members of the previous government were up to that were trying to make out that their involvement in the previous government was making tea for the big boys and maybe shining their shoes.

MM fancies himself as a PR man I think and he needs to go do a course in it.

steelcityblues

Pat Leahy should not have a documentary commissioned again. Scandalous attempt at rehabilitating FF, and providing the narrative that only one man was at fault for everything since 2008.

Alibaba

Just see on the news ; Bertie Ahern - over E152k of a yearly pension
Brian Cowen - over E151k of a yearly pension.
ABSOLUTELY CRAZY ; They should be ashamed to call themselves Irish.

liammur

washman3 wrote: »

And the real rats are the ones that are speaking up now, O'Rourke,O'Dea,Martin,McGrath,Calleary et al. they had all the information at the time,yet voted in favour of everything that strangled the ordinary Irish citizen. Rats of the highest order.!!
The country was well and truely banjaxed when Cowen took over, he was simply out of his depth along with his finance minister Lenihan.

Very true. Not one in that cabinet ever stood up to Ahern, on the contrary, you had the likes of Martin giving celia larken state jobs.

edanto

Hopefully, everyone in the country saw that documentary, but unfortunately, there's a lot of politic-fatigue and people just want it to be over. Call me a cynic, but it won't be over for a long time, especially not with head in the sand voters.

I wonder what will happen at the local elections? Will all the people that say they are sick of the established parties get off the couch and form new ones? Will they actually convince people to vote for alternatives?

Or will we just have a repeat of this documentary in a few years where everyone is blaming Kenny and Noonan because they didn't know we paid out 60bn to bondholders between 2012 and 2015.

There is still a battle to fight!

washman3

The gutter-rats were in full voice again tonight. Typical FF thinking, party before country as was well confirmed by Willie "the snipe" O'Dea.
O'Rourke needs to be put out to grass for once and for all. should never again get airtime.
All two-faced parasites of the highest order. :mad:

liammur

washman3 wrote: »

The gutter-rats were in full voice again tonight. Typical FF thinking, party before country as was well confirmed by Willie "the snipe" O'Dea.
O'Rourke needs to be put out to grass for once and for all. should never again get airtime.
All two-faced parasites of the highest order. :mad:

A few in fairness didn't come on and put the boot into biffo, i.e dempsey.
Martin/O rourke/o dea/hanaffin etc very poor. They were in cabinet, can't blame it all on 1 man.