Would it be unusual to have injured knees FOREVER?

Fr33thinker

I injured them 11 months ago and have been doing physio for 11 months, and it's still awful. I'm really losing hope that it'll ever heal but I feel like it's hard to tell rationally anymore if I'm just paranoid or nuts about it.

It's patellofemoral pain and I am 21 years old.

Am I being paranoid that this could stay with me forever more? It restricts me to the point that I can't even swim or stand for long. My knees feel totally weird and out of place, and one of them gets sharp pain sometimes.

Burkatron

Fr33thinker wrote: »

I injured them 11 months ago and have been doing physio for 11 months, and it's still awful. I'm really losing hope that it'll ever heal but I feel like it's hard to tell rationally anymore if I'm just paranoid or nuts about it.

It's patellofemoral pain and I am 21 years old.

Am I being paranoid that this could stay with me forever more? It restricts me to the point that I can't even swim or stand for long. My knees feel totally weird and out of place, and one of them gets sharp pain sometimes.

11 months, have they diagnosed the problem? Same physio? Have you tried an Osteopath or physical therapist?
Have you been sent for any tests?

Fr33thinker

Burkatron wrote: »

11 months, have they diagnosed the problem? Same physio? Have you tried an Osteopath or physical therapist?
Have you been sent for any tests?

I have a physiotherapist, and she diagnosed me with patellofemoral pain. No tests exactly, just hands on stuff and recalling symptoms, and the physiotherapist got me to do a few squats and movements and bent the leg a few ways to see where the pain was.

Originally it was just the left knee but then after so many months of relying on the right one I injured it too, so what progress I did make on the left one has been totally put back to square one

DRose1

^^ As above... just to add; never underestimate the value of a second opinion. I received treatment on a groin injury for about 7 months with little improvement. I then went to a different physio and one visit later she had arranged for me to meet a surgeon, who said within a minute said that I needed an operation.

Fr33thinker

DRose1 wrote: »

^^ As above... just to add; never underestimate the value of a second opinion. I received treatment on a groin injury for about 7 months with little improvement. I then went to a different physio and one visit later she had arranged for me to meet a surgeon, who said within a minute said that I needed an operation.

And are you OK now? I'm so so worried and depressed. I can't go anywhere or do anything. I don't know how long more I can take this.

manlad

Hey, I've had a similar problem to you. I was having terrible pain on my patella. I couldn't run, play football, even walking was stressing it out.

I got diagnosed with Patella Tendonitis. It can be operated on but its a big operation and takes months for recovery and at the end of it all it may still not work. I had the pain more so in my left knee. I've done a couple of different things to overcome the pain. Some of the following might help:

1) Stop running for a while, hit the gym. By this I mean dont do any activity which causes pressure and strain on your knee. You need to try and build up the muscle in your legs and knee. You can do this cycling on road or in gym. Also plenty of legs weights and squats as long as they aren't painful. Take as much time as possible and then try and get back to running.

2) Avoid treadmills, I havn't had much pain lately with my patella but something which always irrated it was a treadmill.

3) Something which my physio noticed was one of my knees was slightly higher than the other and was causing the problem. I got a pair of insoles made and this has also helped.

4) If you are running make sure you are wearing decent trainers. Shop around and get advice. Even if you have to €100 + its worth it for good support.

5) I've been were you are. I cried with agony coming off during football matches because I was unable to run and at times I felt I wasn't going to be able to do any of it again. It takes time and patience. See different specialists and get as much advice about your problem as possible.

I run 15k about 3 times a week along with football training, my knee annoys me only from time to time but nothing like before. I'm no expert on the whole thing but I know how you feel.

Good luck.

Damokc

I have the same thing.I'm 28 now. First got it when I was about 17/18 when I started training properly with the senior team. we did a fair amount of fitness running and it felt like under my kneecaps were on fire. I got moulded insoles back then and it fixed the problem. However I've been getting serious knee pain again the last two years. So bad they actually get physically stiff to move. I've been for MIRs and so on and all they can come up with is the build up the muscles in my legs and knees. Problem is at this stage doing any exercise screws me up for 24hrs after. Can't walk after a days work if there's alot of ladder work envolved...which there usually is. They talk of young player burnout.."they" might be right. Hurling,Football,Soccer with Club,County and School from 10 till 28 leaves you crippled. Take it easy.:D

Burkatron

Fr33thinker wrote: »

I have a physiotherapist, and she diagnosed me with patellofemoral pain. No tests exactly, just hands on stuff and recalling symptoms, and the physiotherapist got me to do a few squats and movements and bent the leg a few ways to see where the pain was.

Thats not a diagnosis,thats a description of where the pain is! please go see someone that knows what they're doing! Where are you based?

Fr33thinker wrote: »

Originally it was just the left knee but then after so many months of relying on the right one I injured it too, so what progress I did make on the left one has been totally put back to square one

There was no progress made with your left, your body adapted putting the load on the opposite knee & after a while couldn't cope with the extra load.
This is basic stuff a good practitioner should be able to spot & sort!

manlad wrote: »

Hey, I've had a similar problem to you. I was having terrible pain on my patella. I couldn't run, play football, even walking was stressing it out.

I got diagnosed with Patella Tendonitis. It can be operated on but its a big operation and takes months for recovery and at the end of it all it may still not work. I had the pain more so in my left knee. I've done a couple of different things to overcome the pain. Some of the following might help:

1) Stop running for a while, hit the gym. By this I mean dont do any activity which causes pressure and strain on your knee. You need to try and build up the muscle in your legs and knee. You can do this cycling on road or in gym. Also plenty of legs weights and squats as long as they aren't painful. Take as much time as possible and then try and get back to running.

2) Avoid treadmills, I havn't had much pain lately with my patella but something which always irrated it was a treadmill.

3) Something which my physio noticed was one of my knees was slightly higher than the other and was causing the problem. I got a pair of insoles made and this has also helped.

4) If you are running make sure you are wearing decent trainers. Shop around and get advice. Even if you have to €100 + its worth it for good support.

5) I've been were you are. I cried with agony coming off during football matches because I was unable to run and at times I felt I wasn't going to be able to do any of it again. It takes time and patience. See different specialists and get as much advice about your problem as possible.

I run 15k about 3 times a week along with football training, my knee annoys me only from time to time but nothing like before. I'm no expert on the whole thing but I know how you feel.

Good luck.

This is all good advice bar the bolded part regarding the insoles. They're great for temporary relief but eventually cause other problems such as atrophy of the muscles of the arch of the foot so when you take them off you're causing more issues. Think of what happens to your arm when you wear a cast, same difference! Did your physio diagnose you with a leg length discrepency? Was it functional (compensationary pattern from injury) or structural(born with it)? Did they test your knee tracking?

Motion control runners have the same effect as insoles! They have their place but lead to other problems!

Damokc wrote: »

I have the same thing.I'm 28 now. First got it when I was about 17/18 when I started training properly with the senior team. we did a fair amount of fitness running and it felt like under my kneecaps were on fire. I got moulded insoles back then and it fixed the problem. However I've been getting serious knee pain again the last two years. So bad they actually get physically stiff to move. I've been for MIRs and so on and all they can come up with is the build up the muscles in my legs and knees. Problem is at this stage doing any exercise screws me up for 24hrs after. Can't walk after a days work if there's alot of ladder work envolved...which there usually is. They talk of young player burnout.."they" might be right. Hurling,Football,Soccer with Club,County and School from 10 till 28 leaves you crippled. Take it easy.:D

What excercises have they prescribed you to balance out your muscles?? If your strengthening the muscles of the knee that are already short, tight & chronic you're going to be left in agony. The muscles causing the problem need to be relaxed & stretched while their opposing muscles need to be strengthened as they're already on stretch & inhibited & not able to do their job.
You guys need to start seeking other opinions.

You've all gone down the physio route, I'm not going to get into their shortcomings as they have their strong points! You should be all looking to find a REPUTABLE Osteopath, Physical therapist or Neuromuscular therapist if you haven't been down this route already.

Surgeons should be your last port of call as I've being told by reputable surgeon before! "I don't diagnose, I'm given the info by the referring practioner,I cut people open & sow them back together!" That really opened my eyes to how they view people!

eilo1

Burkatron wrote: »

You should be all looking to find a REPUTABLE Osteopath, Physical therapist or Neuromuscular therapist if you haven't been down this route already.

Surgeons should be your last port of call as I've being told by reputable surgeon before! "I don't diagnose, I'm given the info by the referring practioner,I cut people open & sow them back together!" That really opened my eyes to how they view people!

^^^This right here is why people should not take medical advice off the internet.

Op go get a second opinion if you are unhappy with your treatment to date. Perhaps a physio who specialises in sports injuries may be of more help to you. Your gp may also be able to arrange a scan to further investigate what is going on.

Burkatron

eilo1 wrote: »

^^^This right here is why people should not take medical advice off the internet.

Op go get a second opinion if you are unhappy with your treatment to date. Perhaps a physio who specialises in sports injuries may be of more help to you. Your gp may also be able to arrange a scan to further investigate what is going on.

They should take advice off a physio who has been treating them for 11 months with an observation of "Patello femoral" pain?? Physio's aren't the be all & end all but I'm sure you're going to tell me why I'm wrong :rolleyes:

eilo1

Burkatron wrote: »

They should take advice off a physio who has been treating them for 11 months with an observation of "Patello femoral" pain?? Physio's aren't the be all & end all but I'm sure you're going to tell me why I'm wrong :rolleyes:

You dont know if the op was given a more specific diagnosis. It would be normal practice to give a laymans diagnosis to the patient to aid their understanding of the problem. This may or may not have included explaining about retraining the vmo etc. As I said you dont know what was discussed.

Also in your online assessment you forgot to ask the most important question about the patients treatment plan. Has the OP been doing their home exercise program. A physio can only do some much in person, the majority of treatment is advice. The patient must actually go away and rehabilitate themselves based on the home plan the physio gives them.

Obviously all of this may not apply in this case but its important to look at the whole picture.
Encouraging someone to avoid an evidence based health profession is never good advice.

Fr33thinker

eilo1 wrote: »

^^^This right here is why people should not take medical advice off the internet.

Op go get a second opinion if you are unhappy with your treatment to date. Perhaps a physio who specialises in sports injuries may be of more help to you. Your gp may also be able to arrange a scan to further investigate what is going on.

My doctor is a total moron and when he referred me to a orthapedic specialist he put me down as "routine" so I'm on a waiting list that will take 2 years for me to get in.

The physiotherapist I'm seeing is a sports specialist and she said it's hard to tell with kneecaps how long it'll take to settle down.

I have been doing physio twice a day every day, I have insoles, motion control shoes, foam rollers and I don't swim, jog, run, or walk more than once a week for 30 minutes.

It's total hell. I can't see it recovering. I'm only 21 and I can't do anything other people my age can. It's stressing me out so much that I think if it doesn't heal within a year I'll commit suicide. It's just too hard to cope with. But I'm going to be referred to a private orthapedic consultant and see him in about a month (because 2 years is USELESS to me) and see what he says before I totally lose all hope.

Fr33thinker

Oh, and I'm based in South Dublin.

Hanley

Your physio sounds completely sh*t based off your description.

Second opinion, post-haste. You won't go wrong with Functional Training Ireland or SportsMed Ireland - both based city centre.

Rehabbing from an injury is more than just having some muscle rubbed down by a physio for 11 months. Have they made any effort to treat the cause? Or have they even told you what they think it is?

Stories like this frustrate the hell outta me.

eilo1

Fr33thinker wrote: »

My doctor is a total moron and when he referred me to a orthapedic specialist he put me down as "routine" so I'm on a waiting list that will take 2 years for me to get in.

The physiotherapist I'm seeing is a sports specialist and she said it's hard to tell with kneecaps how long it'll take to settle down.

I have been doing physio twice a day every day, I have insoles, motion control shoes, foam rollers and I don't swim, jog, run, or walk more than once a week for 30 minutes.

It's total hell. I can't see it recovering. I'm only 21 and I can't do anything other people my age can. It's stressing me out so much that I think if it doesn't heal within a year I'll commit suicide. It's just too hard to cope with. But I'm going to be referred to a private orthapedic consultant and see him in about a month (because 2 years is USELESS to me) and see what he says before I totally lose all hope.

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble OP. It sounds like a nightmare. I dont normally see physio's but I am going to see a very specialised one in Greystones either tomorrow or Wednesday. If he is as good as I have heard Ill forward on his details.
Hopefully there is a lot more that can be done to help you. You are very young so dont be giving up just yet.
Regarding your gp why not get a letter of referral from your physio to bring to a new gp and get yourself referred with more urgency.

d'Oracle

eilo1 wrote: »

Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble OP. It sounds like a nightmare. I dont normally see physio's but I am going to see a very specialised one in Greystones either tomorrow or Wednesday. If he is as good as I have heard Ill forward on his details.
.

Who?
I know a couple of physios in Greystones.
PM me if you don't want to post.

eilo1

d'Oracle wrote: »

Who?
I know a couple of physios in Greystones.
PM me if you don't want to post.

Im not sure if can post names in the forum so just pmed you there!

gymsoldier

Hanley wrote: »

Second opinion, post-haste. You won't go wrong with Functional Training Ireland or SportsMed Ireland - both based city centre.

I can vouch for Sports Med Ireland.

Burkatron

I'm not on my phone so can actually type again!! Damn fat fingers!!!

eilo1 wrote: »

You dont know if the op was given a more specific diagnosis. It would be normal practice to give a laymans diagnosis to the patient to aid their understanding of the problem. This may or may not have included explaining about retraining the vmo etc. As I said you dont know what was discussed.

I completely agree with this, but it's not normal for the OP to be given a "diagnosis" 11 months ago & not to have seen any improvement. The PT (or the Dr.)should have sent the OP on for further investigation along time ago which from reading hasn't been done

eilo1 wrote: »

Also in your online assessment you forgot to ask the most important question about the patients treatment plan. Has the OP been doing their home exercise program. A physio can only do some much in person, the majority of treatment is advice. The patient must actually go away and rehabilitate themselves based on the home plan the physio gives them.

There was no online assessment, I was pointing out what type of questions the OP should be asking/ What info the PT should be giving! Have I attempted to diagnose anything? If the OP persists with this PT (which IMO they shouldn't) they need to ask questions

eilo1 wrote: »

Obviously all of this may not apply in this case but its important to look at the whole picture.
Encouraging someone to avoid an evidence based health profession is never good advice.

*Edit, this isn't a rant, genuine question*

I'm ready to be flamed on this but anywho!
This is the base arguement every physiotherapist goes back to. It's great there's peer reviews backing up the efficacy of the practice (the same for "conventional" medicine) but if it's the be all & end all of musculo skeletal treatment, why do people seek out other forms of treatment & get better where physiotherapy has failed? If it's placebo why doesn't physiotherapy have the same effect? All forms of therapy should,need & are supposedly been reviewed & becoming properly regulated.

eilo1

Burkatron wrote: »

If it's placebo why doesn't physiotherapy have the same effect? All forms of therapy should,need & are supposedly been reviewed & becoming properly regulated.

We are getting really off topic here. But ill try to answer as best I can. Firstly all forms of therapy are NOT being regulated. Physio and OT as well all the HSE health professionals are going to be regulated by the new health professionals council. But at the minute are regulated by the chartered society of physiotherapists.

As for other therapists they can do what they like. You can call yourself a spinetherapist and start charging people for your "treatment" if you want. There is no need for any type of scientific backing for the treatment you provide or advice/diagnosis you give. Now you are leaving yourself open to being sued. But you are not breaking any laws and its very expensive to sue people.
Once you have built up some clients you can start teaching other people your spine therapy and "regulate" them by calling yourself a society.

This is why physios and medicine talk about being evidence based. Because they can say to you "Id like to try this treatment, I think it will help you because in trials 89% of peoples symptoms improved." Physios are tightly regulated and can be struck off for offences like poor record keeping.

I mentioned in another thread recently about a friend of mine who holds clinics as a herbalist. She has people coming to see her with various conditions such as high blood pressure etc. She doesnt even have a first aid certificate!!

Hanley

Eilo1, I may have missed it, but are you a trained/training to be a physio?

eilo1

Hanley wrote: »

Eilo1, I may have missed it, but are you a trained/training to be a physio?

4th year, but also trying to get a strength and conditioning cert at the min.

Fr33thinker

Hanley wrote: »

Your physio sounds completely sh*t based off your description.

Second opinion, post-haste. You won't go wrong with Functional Training Ireland or SportsMed Ireland - both based city centre.

Rehabbing from an injury is more than just having some muscle rubbed down by a physio for 11 months. Have they made any effort to treat the cause? Or have they even told you what they think it is?

Stories like this frustrate the hell outta me.

Basically she said it's patellofemoral pain, the kneecap isn't tracking properly, and gave me exercises to do to strengthen my hips, quads and glutes. I have a foam roller, and I have insoles and motion control shoes to help with my biomechanics because I have flat feet. I was referred to a specialist named Gary O Toole yesterday so I should get an appointment with him soon, and I was on a waiting list since August to see another physiotherapist which should be around the same time as the specialist, so at least things are moving along now. I just hope that when I see both of them (especially O Toole) that I'll know definitively what it is and what the outlook is.

I never realised how bad doctors are I went to my GP who said "it's a lateral collateral ligament injury, you'll be fine in 6 weeks" to A&E about a month later when it was REALLY killing me and the doctor there said "it might be your posterior cruciate ligament" to going BACK to the GP (because the guy in A&E said he wasn't sure and told me to go back to him) and the GP said "well maybe it's patellar tendinitis or osgood shlatters" and then to a sports physiotherapist who said "it's no ligament! It's patellofemoral pain". I trusted her because I had injured the tendon in my left knee and she helped a lot with that and it's healed, so I thought she was really good. But here I am o_o with no progress.

eilo1

I heard really good reports about O Toole while I was in the beacon, so hopefully you will get this sorted out soon!

mada999

manlad wrote: »

Hey, I've had a similar problem to you. I was having terrible pain on my patella. I couldn't run, play football, even walking was stressing it out.

I got diagnosed with Patella Tendonitis. It can be operated on but its a big operation and takes months for recovery and at the end of it all it may still not work. I had the pain more so in my left knee. I've done a couple of different things to overcome the pain. Some of the following might help:

1) Stop running for a while, hit the gym. By this I mean dont do any activity which causes pressure and strain on your knee. You need to try and build up the muscle in your legs and knee. You can do this cycling on road or in gym. Also plenty of legs weights and squats as long as they aren't painful. Take as much time as possible and then try and get back to running.

2) Avoid treadmills, I havn't had much pain lately with my patella but something which always irrated it was a treadmill.

3) Something which my physio noticed was one of my knees was slightly higher than the other and was causing the problem. I got a pair of insoles made and this has also helped.

4) If you are running make sure you are wearing decent trainers. Shop around and get advice. Even if you have to €100 + its worth it for good support.

5) I've been were you are. I cried with agony coming off during football matches because I was unable to run and at times I felt I wasn't going to be able to do any of it again. It takes time and patience. See different specialists and get as much advice about your problem as possible.

I run 15k about 3 times a week along with football training, my knee annoys me only from time to time but nothing like before. I'm no expert on the whole thing but I know how you feel.

Good luck.

hello how long did it take you to get properly running again ?

The Guvnor

Fr33thinker wrote: »

I injured them 11 months ago and have been doing physio for 11 months, and it's still awful. I'm really losing hope that it'll ever heal but I feel like it's hard to tell rationally anymore if I'm just paranoid or nuts about it.

It's patellofemoral pain and I am 21 years old.

Am I being paranoid that this could stay with me forever more? It restricts me to the point that I can't even swim or stand for long. My knees feel totally weird and out of place, and one of them gets sharp pain sometimes.

It would be unusual for them to be injured forever. Stay +ve and get a 2nd and even a 3rd opinion.

Best of luck and keep us updated!

heyheyhey1982

I have had a knee injury since febuary 2010- i went to A&E and they said i'd be fine in a few weeks, weeks passed so i was told by my physio that a Cortizone injection would do the job, so went to a Orthopedic surgeon- it didnt work.
Got referred for an MRI and it came back- "Slight tear of ACL" and it would take 3 months to heal (this was 6 motnhs after injury) went to another Ortho in Cappagh hospital and i refused to leave the hospiatal without investigation. He agreed to do an Artroscopy, they found my ACL was perfect condition and that i'd tore a flap of cartilage behind the knee cap. This was Articular cartilage which is probably the worst cartilage to tear as it takes along time to heal (we're now a november last year) and infact maybe never heals it justs scars over.

Since then i've been back to the hospital 5 times and got an MRI on both knees to see why it was taking so long to heal- they decided to inject my knee with a substance called Suplasyn which helps heal cartilage, still not perfect but last week i decided i was playing a game of football again- (i'd been to the gym religiosly for the last 1.5 years- so i was in ok shape) so i played the match and 30 minutes later i'd scored a few goals, at the end of the match i nearly started to cry with delight. I had no pain and i played ok. I go back to the hospital in 3 weeks and i hope to get the all clear. its been a rollercoaster and i've been on boards asking everyones opinion and also reading stuff on the internet till 4 in the morning trying to figure out what was wrong wtih me. i would say good rehab and taking suppliments like glucosamine helped me. Knee injuries are maybe the worst of any type of injury as you cannot avoid walking. i wish you the best of luck.

kennyb3

Can't actually believe you ve been seeing the same person for 11 months. I've been through many many a bad physio - some i gave a few weeeks to, others just an appointment. I finally found someone who knows what they are doing and who i trust.

Anyway my 2c you really really need to go see someone good - not just because they are labelled a physio or PT or whatever. Someone who comes highly recommended and has a history of sorting stuff like this.

Fr33thinker

kennyb3 wrote: »

Can't actually believe you ve been seeing the same person for 11 months. I've been through many many a bad physio - some i gave a few weeeks to, others just an appointment. I finally found someone who knows what they are doing and who i trust.

Anyway my 2c you really really need to go see someone good - not just because they are labelled a physio or PT or whatever. Someone who comes highly recommended and has a history of sorting stuff like this.

The thing about it was that originally I was only diagnosed as having a tendon injury in my left knee, and the right knee was fine for months. I had read that tendons can take an excess of 6 months to heal so I hung on waiting. At around the 7 month mark I had stopped getting tendon pain and had been told I also had kneecap problems by the physio which the doctor didn't spot. It took a while to balance helping those two things because I had to do strengthening for the tendon but it agitated the kneecap, so I thought it was only reasonable that the kneecap would take a while to calm down. So by 7 months the tendon felt fine and the kneecap was getting better. And that is when the right knee gave out. That was about 3 and a half months ago.

I'm glad O Toole comes highly recommended. I don't know what he could say to me though that would make me feel OK again. I'm going to treat my knees with total care if I get out of this with a full recovery.

fid1976

hi there, Just wondering what happened? Did you get to see Mr O'toole? What was the outcome of you visit. Am hoping you got some kind of relief. Have similar kind of a problem am trying to get the best way to sort it out

asharkman

hey guys, just wondering how you got on with the Suplasyn. I've got mild wearing of the cartilage, sometimes it can be quite uncomfortable and painful. I'm scheduled to get a Suplasyn before a fairly active holiday. Just wondering you got on with the injection or if you had any thoughts on Suplasyn.