Architect Costs

Lemlin

I initially paid the architect on my build 3k which I thought would have covered the majority of the costs and fees. However, I've now received an invoice for another 1300 euro as the build is finished.
I thought it was a bit steep to be honest.

The plans for the house are based on my brother's plans and very few changes were made. I even supplied the architect with a copy of my brother's plans and told him the changes I'd like. There was a problem with planning initially but it was soon cleared up when plans for the outside of the house were resubmitted with only one entrance and not two.

The latest invoice states the costs are for supervision of the build and the final reports for the bank. However, while the architect has told me he called out to the site during the build, nobody ever actually met him at the site and, while I did call his office on the phone a few times re some recommendations about suppliers/should I go with spray foam etc., he never met me or anyone at the build to make any direct comments re this "supervision".

Just interested in seeing what people think because I'm planning to ring his office and try to get a reduction. Is this justified?

martinn123

Perhaps to get some reasonable replies here can you reflect on your initial meetings with the Architect, and what was agreed or what was assumed.
( assumptions are bad )

From previous threads on this topic, we have seen that there are various aspects to what an Architect does, from,
Design,
Planning Application,
Supervision of Build
and
Certification for Banks, Building Reg's Etc.

Each of which naturally carries a Fee, so what did you agree would be the Services in return for the 3K you have paid.

I know Solicitors are supposed to give a written Quote for any work, nor sure about Architects.

So if you can list what work was carried out, I am sure others will comment on the Total Fee Invoiced.

sydthebeat

€3k for planning and €1300 for 'supervision' sounds about right.

But the major problem here is that you dont seem to have a quotation from your architect with a breakdown of services and quotes for same.

have you NO documentation from your architect with quotes on it?? none at all?

Did the architect ever say to you that his fee for 'planning' was €3k?

On the 'supervision' aspect.. it sound like what he was doing is the standard periodic inspections required to certify the build in accordance with building regulations, certify the release of staged mortgage payments and provision of a certificate of compliance with planning and building regulations on completion.
its very dangerous for him to use the phrase 'supervision' although he may just be using it as its how a layperson refers to this 'inspection' service. Supervision infers some element of executive power of decision, which isnt correct. Inspection means checking the work as carried out, and determining suitability, or not, of same.

As a matter of clarification, no body needs to be on site when he visits, assuming the site is always accessible. If he has questions or queries during each stage he would contact the builder.

An organised professional would bring a camera on site and photograph the hell out of the build at each stage.

surely you contacted him asking for stage payments periodically throughout the build? after each of these requests he is required to visit the site and 'sign off' that stage of the build. In out office we provide each client with a schedule of when we need to visit the build and its up to the client to let us know when the build has reached each stage.

Did he carry out a provision BER assessment before work started to see if the build complied with Part L of the building regulations? If not, its impossible for him to certify compliance. If he has, he should organise to provide you with a BER certificate on completion. Has an air tightness test been carried out? That MUST be done also.

Lemlin

martinn123 wrote: »

Perhaps to get some reasonable replies here can you reflect on your initial meetings with the Architect, and what was agreed or what was assumed.
( assumptions are bad )

From previous threads on this topic, we have seen that there are various aspects to what an Architect does, from,
Design,
Planning Application,
Supervision of Build
and
Certification for Banks, Building Reg's Etc.

Each of which naturally carries a Fee, so what did you agree would be the Services in return for the 3K you have paid.

I know Solicitors are supposed to give a written Quote for any work, nor sure about Architects.

So if you can list what work was carried out, I am sure others will comment on the Total Fee Invoiced.

I met the architect once at the site when I gave him the plans. I then met him once in his office to look over the plans after he had completed them. Those were the only meetings I had with him.

He would have had to do very little design as he had my brother's plans. He would of completed everything else to do with the planning however.

Lemlin

sydthebeat wrote: »

€3k for planning and €1300 for 'supervision' sounds about right.

But the major problem here is that you dont seem to have a quotation from your architect with a breakdown of services and quotes for same.

have you NO documentation from your architect with quotes on it?? none at all?

Did the architect ever say to you that his fee for 'planning' was €3k?

On the 'supervision' aspect.. it sound like what he was doing is the standard periodic inspections required to certify the build in accordance with building regulations, certify the release of staged mortgage payments and provision of a certificate of compliance with planning and building regulations on completion.
its very dangerous for him to use the phrase 'supervision' although he may just be using it as its how a layperson refers to this 'inspection' service. Supervision infers some element of executive power of decision, which isnt correct. Inspection means checking the work as carried out, and determining suitability, or not, of same.

As a matter of clarification, no body needs to be on site when he visits, assuming the site is always accessible. If he has questions or queries during each stage he would contact the builder.

An organised professional would bring a camera on site and photograph the hell out of the build at each stage.

surely you contacted him asking for stage payments periodically throughout the build? after each of these requests he is required to visit the site and 'sign off' that stage of the build. In out office we provide each client with a schedule of when we need to visit the build and its up to the client to let us know when the build has reached each stage.

Did he carry out a provision BER assessment before work started to see if the build complied with Part L of the building regulations? If not, its impossible for him to certify compliance. If he has, he should organise to provide you with a BER certificate on completion. Has an air tightness test been carried out? That MUST be done also.

The quotes I have from him are enclosed below. These quotes were given at the start of the build. The miscellaneous fees for the planning application add up to €1340, which means I paid €1600 for the plans. To be honest, I find that steep as, as I said, he was given my brother's plans by me, we had two meetings in total - one at the site and one in his office - and I'm charged €1600 for that?

Planning Application
ARCHITECT
Application fee €65.00
Paper Notice & erection of laminated site notice €120.00
Maps – Planning Pack €65.00
Marking 6 copies of maps for planning €60.00
Site Survey – Take Levels and details on site. Draw site
sections & note boundaries. €230.00
EPA Site Assessment & Report. Site Investigation on
Pre dug trial holes €550.00
Plans – €1,300 - €2,000
Domestic garage €150.00
Preparation of application forms & 6 copies to council €100.00

SUPERVISION
Engineer to supervise construction
Supervision consist of approx 4-6 No. site visits to inspect each stage
Of construction and recommendations for sub-contractors €400.00
Issue Stage Payment Certificates to Solicitor and Bank €400.00
Issue Final Cert of Compliance upon completion €500.00
Mark out foundations for builder €200.00

He did not mark out the foundations so the €1300 must be coming for the other three steps listed under supervision.

It was direct labour so I was the builder. I was never contacted with any queries at any stage. The mortage was drawn down at five different stages. Each time I contacted their office re a stage payment, I just told them what stage I was at and I was told they'd call out but there was regularly tradesmen etc. at the site and one of the lads who works in the architect's office was only ever seen their twice. I'm not saying he didn't go out but I wouldn't exactly call it supervision.

If he did complete a BER assessment before work started, I never received it. I have not been provided with a BER cert. An airtightness test was completed but I organised that myself. He did complete a final report for the bank for the final stage payment. I asked the office for a copy of this and have yet to receive it.

BryanF

Lemlin wrote: »

I met the architect once at the site when I gave him the plans. I then met him once in his office to look over the plans after he had completed them. Those were the only meetings I had with him.

He would have had to do very little design as he had my brother's plans. He would of completed everything else to do with the planning however.

Lemlin,
There are two sides here - you claim you've had very little contact: your architect might claim he/she hasn't bothered you with the nitty-gritty'ness of the job.

In this instance we don't really have all the facts, so may I suggest you go back and confront your architect asking for a break-down/ explanation of the fees.

martinn123

It's all outlined in the original Quote

Architect

Plans 1300 - 2000

and the final 1300, is
site visits 400
Certs Stage Payments 400
Final Cert 500 = 1300.00

Lemlin

martinn123 wrote: »

It's all outlined in the original Quote

Architect

Plans 1300 - 2000

and the final 1300, is
site visits 400
Certs Stage Payments 400
Final Cert 500 = 1300.00

Yes but the question I'm asking is: is €1600 fair for a set of plans where the architect was given the plans and made less than a handful of changes? My presumption is that there's alot less work involved in editing a set of existing plans rather than drawing up completely new plans.

Lemlin

BryanF wrote: »

Lemlin,
There are two sides here - you claim you've had very little contact: your architect might claim he/she hasn't bothered you with the nitty-gritty'ness of the job.

In this instance we don't really have all the facts, so may I suggest you go back and confront your architect asking for a break-down/ explanation of the fees.

That's my plan but I just wanted to see if my argument was warranted first. My main question would be, as per above, is €1600 fair for a set of plans which were basically just an edited version of my brother's plans?

martinn123

Lemlin wrote: »

Yes but the question I'm asking is: is €1600 fair for a set of plans where the architect was given the plans and made less than a handful of changes? My presumption is that there's alot less work involved in editing a set of existing plans rather than drawing up completely new plans.

A fair question perhaps, but maybe one to be asked at quotation, or Planning stage.

He quoted for the work, the build is finished and he has submitted his final account.

Maybe someone from within the profession can make a suggestion, but it appears you accepted his quotation, a long time ago.

BryanF

Lemlin wrote: »

Yes but the question I'm asking is: is €1600 fair for a set of plans where the architect was given the plans and made less than a handful of changes? My presumption is that there's alot less work involved in editing a set of existing plans rather than drawing up completely new plans.

tell if i'm wrong but you got planning didn't you? without knowing the ins and outs of the specific application it hard to say..

sydthebeat

Lemlin wrote: »

. I'm not saying he didn't go out but I wouldn't exactly call it supervision.
.

its not "supervision".
He explained that it involved 4-6 site visits.
(In my own honest experience 4 is too little, 6 is minimum).

Lemlin wrote: »

one of the lads who works in the architect's office was only ever seen their twice. .

so thats two visits accounted for, and as i said, there doesnt need to be anyone one site, although its good practise to organise to call out when the builder is on site. However, as this was a 'direct labour' build there is no nominate 'builder' to contact, so its completely understandable that his visits arent accounted for.
I also assume that there was a visit prior to pouring of foundations?

It could be viewed that by having no comminucation with him, he was completely happy with all the work that has occured and you need not worry about anything going wrong.

Lemlin wrote: »

The miscellaneous fees for the planning application add up to €1340, which means I paid €1600 for the plans. To be honest, I find that steep as, as I said, he was given my brother's plans by me, we had two meetings in total - one at the site and one in his office - and I'm charged €1600 for that?.

no, the miscellaneous costs add up to €250 (maps, paper and app fee)

the EPA test fee was €550

so his fee to prepare all documents required for planning is €2200.

I dont get how his quote for plans is €1300 - €2000.. what was that dependent on?

Whether or not he used an existing plan which he augmented is immaterial once you agreed the quote beforehand. He has broken down his fees to show where it comes from... and you got them at the start of the build. You contacted his office to request the stage payments, that in itself is an acceptance of the quotation as a contract.

I assume he had permission from the copyright holder to use the original plans?

Ask him for a copy of the BER assessment report showing compliance with Parl L of the building regulations, he would need to have carried this out in order to certify. Ask him if he is providing you with a final BER, as you are legally required to get one prior to occupation. He may not be registered so you may need to engage an assessor yourself, but he should be able to provide the xml file to the assessor.


As an over though, i think many self builders, when coming to the final days of a build, begin to question professional payments purely because of the fact that they cannot see anything physical for their money apart for paper documents. After spending so much money on practical physical things like kitchens, windows etc its hard to accept the fee paid to professionals without having something to 'kick'. I see it a lot where at the start of a project a client is all up for design, tender drawings, project management.. the whole shebang. But then when first quotes come in and the client equates professional fees for construction drawings and supervision to the difference between a pine and oak stairs, or a laminate versus granite countertop... they quickly begin to question the 'value' or a professionals service.

Im not saying that the above example is a good example. The professional in my opinion should provide the client with a document after each visit updating him on the work, or at least a phone call. Photos should be taken on ever site visit, more for the inspectors sake than the clients.
But it seems he provided a quote at the beginning of the build, which you seem to accept by engaging him... and now you are trying to haggle with him after the work has been carried out??? You cant haggle with your NCT inspector after he says that your car is fine... but you expect to do the same here?

sydthebeat

Lemlin wrote: »

That's my plan but I just wanted to see if my argument was warranted first. My main question would be, as per above, is €1600 fair for a set of plans which were basically just an edited version of my brother's plans?

???

If you didnt think it was fair, why did you already pay him?

Lemlin

sydthebeat wrote: »

its not "supervision".
He explained that it involved 4-6 site visits.
(In my own honest experience 4 is too little, 6 is minimum).



so thats two visits accounted for, and as i said, there doesnt need to be anyone one site, although its good practise to organise to call out when the builder is on site. However, as this was a 'direct labour' build there is no nominate 'builder' to contact, so its completely understandable that his visits arent accounted for.
I also assume that there was a visit prior to pouring of foundations?

It could be viewed that by having no comminucation with him, he was completely happy with all the work that has occured and you need not worry about anything going wrong.



no, the miscellaneous costs add up to €250 (maps, paper and app fee)

the EPA test fee was €550

so his fee to prepare all documents required for planning is €2200.

I dont get how his quote for plans is €1300 - €2000.. what was that dependent on?

Whether or not he used an existing plan which he augmented is immaterial once you agreed the quote beforehand. He has broken down his fees to show where it comes from... and you got them at the start of the build. You contacted his office to request the stage payments, that in itself is an acceptance of the quotation as a contract.

I assume he had permission from the copyright holder to use the original plans?

Ask him for a copy of the BER assessment report showing compliance with Parl L of the building regulations, he would need to have carried this out in order to certify. Ask him if he is providing you with a final BER, as you are legally required to get one prior to occupation. He may not be registered so you may need to engage an assessor yourself, but he should be able to provide the xml file to the assessor.


As an over though, i think many self builders, when coming to the final days of a build, begin to question professional payments purely because of the fact that they cannot see anything physical for their money apart for paper documents. After spending so much money on practical physical things like kitchens, windows etc its hard to accept the fee paid to professionals without having something to 'kick'. I see it a lot where at the start of a project a client is all up for design, tender drawings, project management.. the whole shebang. But then when first quotes come in and the client equates professional fees for construction drawings and supervision to the difference between a pine and oak stairs, or a laminate versus granite countertop... they quickly begin to question the 'value' or a professionals service.

Im not saying that the above example is a good example. The professional in my opinion should provide the client with a document after each visit updating him on the work, or at least a phone call. Photos should be taken on ever site visit, more for the inspectors sake than the clients.
But it seems he provided a quote at the beginning of the build, which you seem to accept by engaging him... and now you are trying to haggle with him after the work has been carried out??? You cant haggle with your NCT inspector after he says that your car is fine... but you expect to do the same here?

The different fees I am talking about are:

Application fee €65.00
Paper Notice & erection of laminated site notice €120.00
Maps – Planning Pack €65.00
Marking 6 copies of maps for planning €60.00
Site Survey – Take Levels and details on site. Draw site
sections & note boundaries. €230.00
EPA Site Assessment & Report. Site Investigation on
Pre dug trial holes €550.00
Domestic garage €150.00
Preparation of application forms & 6 copies to council €100.00

Those add up to 1340. I have paid 3k initially which means I was charged 1600e for plans. That's where I get the figure of €1600 from.

If he did get permission to use the plans, he never mentioned it to me. I gave him the plans and he used them. He never asked me who drew them yp. I presume it was on the plans (I can't remember) but he never mentioned to me that he contacted the original architect.

I don't really agree with your point re the NCT thing. I'm talking about a service provider here. I wouldn't really class the NCT centre as a service provider. I'm not going to the NCT centre seeking the best vehicle test I can get - I'm just seeking to get the car through the test. Have you never gone to a service provider, agreed a price, been unhappy with how the work was carried out, and brought up your qualms with the service provider afterwards?

As I said, when I paid the 3k I presumed it was for the bulk of the work that had been completed. I didn't realise that there would be such a significant further cost to pay and, to be honest, I don't think the service provided warrants that fee. Already you have mentioned several docs that I have not received and I also requested the final report on several occasions and have not received it yet.

Prehaps I'm wrong re the costs which is why I have raised the query here. For feedback.

Poor Uncle Tom

Lemlin, to directly answer your question €1,600 is a hell of a lot of money to have to pay to re-draft plans with minor changes, but as has been stated above, you were aware of this to begin with and yet you went ahead.

May I ask why you didn't use the person who prepared your brothers plans when you knew they were going to be virtually the same?

Lemlin

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Lemlin, to directly answer your question €1,600 is a hell of a lot of money to have to pay to re-draft plans with minor changes, but as has been stated above, you were aware of this to begin with and yet you went ahead.

May I ask why you didn't use the person who prepared your brothers plans when you knew they were going to be virtually the same?

To be honest I wasn't fully aware of this. I was never given a breakdown of what the 3k was for. The invoice said "sales order". I presumed it was for the bulk of the work. I will raise this with the architect. Thank you for answering the question.

I won't go into the issue too much on a public forum but the person who drafted my brother's plans suffered ill health and no longer had a practice at that time, or now.

sydthebeat

Lemlin, i dont want to sound unreasonable... i agree with PUT that 1600 is very high to redraw and make minor alterations to, any house plan. But as above, youve already paid it.

my point regarding the €2200 was that its the total cost of preparing the application... basically not breaking down any of the costs. Some of teh breakdows are ridiculous any way... €60 to mark 6 maps for planning :rolleyes:

but i really have to stand up for our profession here (and not THIS particular guy) and defend what we do and how we are paid.

the NCT analogy is actually perfect for this situation. the architect providing an 'inspection' service has no control over the quality control of the build, assuming he had no input into the construction and material specification of the build. He simply has to ask himself two questions: does what i am looking at comply with building regulations, and does it comply with planning...... much the same way as an NCT inspector has a framework in which he checks for compliance. The architect has a checklist in much the same way ie:
do the windows comply with fire regs
does the effluent treatment system comply with planning
does the roof timbers comply with structural requirements etc

the architects only executive power in this case is where something does not comply with regulations or planning... he then informs you of the issue and its up to you to rectify it. as hes hasnt informed you of any issues it seems your build complies.

Im afraid the architect didnt properly explain to you exactly what his "supervision" service actually consisted of, or you understood it to mean something else from what he described. this is a fault of the architect for not explaining properly, but he seems to have provided the service he listed and quoted for and for which you engaged.

i think you will be met with short shrift if you now start complaining about
1. a fee youve already paid months ago
2. a fee for a service you were quoted for prior to build, and you commenced without question.

you are now saying that you dont think the service provided warrants that fee.....

did he not issue each stage payment as requested?
is he issuing final certification in compliance as required?

that seems to be the 'productive' end of the service he quoted for, is he refusing to do this?

Lemlin

sydthebeat wrote: »

Lemlin, i dont want to sound unreasonable... i agree with PUT that 1600 is very high to redraw and make minor alterations to, any house plan. But as above, youve already paid it.

my point regarding the €2200 was that its the total cost of preparing the application... basically not breaking down any of the costs. Some of teh breakdows are ridiculous any way... €60 to mark 6 maps for planning :rolleyes:

but i really have to stand up for our profession here (and not THIS particular guy) and defend what we do and how we are paid.

the NCT analogy is actually perfect for this situation. the architect providing an 'inspection' service has no control over the quality control of the build, assuming he had no input into the construction and material specification of the build. He simply has to ask himself two questions: does what i am looking at comply with building regulations, and does it comply with planning...... much the same way as an NCT inspector has a framework in which he checks for compliance. The architect has a checklist in much the same way ie:
do the windows comply with fire regs
does the effluent treatment system comply with planning
does the roof timbers comply with structural requirements etc

the architects only executive power in this case is where something does not comply with regulations or planning... he then informs you of the issue and its up to you to rectify it. as hes hasnt informed you of any issues it seems your build complies.

Im afraid the architect didnt properly explain to you exactly what his "supervision" service actually consisted of, or you understood it to mean something else from what he described. this is a fault of the architect for not explaining properly, but he seems to have provided the service he listed and quoted for and for which you engaged.

i think you will be met with short shrift if you now start complaining about
1. a fee youve already paid months ago
2. a fee for a service you were quoted for prior to build, and you commenced without question.

you are now saying that you dont think the service provided warrants that fee.....

did he not issue each stage payment as requested?
is he issuing final certification in compliance as required?

that seems to be the 'productive' end of the service he quoted for, is he refusing to do this?

I do think syd that you have your architect head on here and are trying to stick up for one of your profession.

Yes, I have paid that amount but there is now another amount outstanding. Do you mean to tell me that if you had contracted a supplier to complete a job for a client and they had completed part of the job, then completed the second part and it wasn't up to description or costs appeared excessive, you'd just go ahead and instruct the client to pay the second part? I think you'd contact the supplier first to discuss the costs tbh and that's what I'm doing here.

I'll contact the architect Monday morning and get his opinion anyway.

No6

It think perhaps that going on about the fee for redrawing other plans is being a little bit unfair, there's a lot more to making any planning application than redrawing plans, you are also paying to the architect to make prepare the application document's to make sure that it complies with the planning and development reg's, you haven't mentioned being charged any extra for dealing with further information so I am assuming that he dealt with this also, he may have done a preplanning meeting prior to submission etc etc, while you may have only got a set of drawings that look almost like your brothers plans there is a lot of other work to get them to the point where you can build them. I think the price you got was reasonable and about average for the kind of work required. At the end of the day you got planning, you got your draw downs certified and your house is built for quite a reasonable fee which you agreed prior to starting.

Slig

While I'm all on for "designing" houses rather than just reproducing them, if you just wanted a generic redraw then you probably went to the wrong professional or at the very least under used them. I have worked for engineers that charge €1500 to get a house through planning and for architects that charge €4500 for the same service. The difference is the design, Architects specialise in design. I dont just mean making the house look pretty but in all the other aspects such as energy efficency, site positioning, space planning, materials etc.. For their fee an engineer will "draw" a house. If you didnt require any design imput then maybe you went to the wrong professional.

I would have expected the architect to charge you for the 2 stages seperately, in fact if he didnt I would find it unethical. The services that you paid €3000 for were to get your project up to planning grant/refusal. The architect has no imput into the actual decision to grant or refuse the application, thats down to the LA so it wouldnt be right for them to include inspection costs into their fees when they can give you no guarantee that the house will get any further than planning.

Regarding the level of supervision, the architect is submitting a cert to the bank to say that in his opinion the work you are doing is worth them paying for. Its not done to assure the builder that he is doing a good job.

sydthebeat

lemlin please let us know how you get on with your visit to your architect?

Lemlin

sydthebeat wrote: »

lemlin please let us know how you get on with your visit to your architect?

Will do.