Pulling on the lead

Léan

Hi,
we have just adopted a German Shepherd X, he's 16 weeks and an absolute sweetheart. But... He was living in a foster family before he came to us and it seems he's developed some really bad habits on the lead. He pulls quite badly, and swerves and lunges after traffic.

He is already quite strong and is only going to get stronger so I really want to get this sorted now. I have tried stopping and starting and lots of positive reinforcement, although this is working to an extent in the park, on the road it's a totally different ball game, it is very hard to get his attention.

I have been reading a lot about the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness and it seems to have gotten lots of positive reviews, but i'm unsure.

Any help/advice appreciated.

kildare.17hmr

choke chain

tk123

We have that harness and it is very good BUT you still need to train them how to walk correctly. I like the harness because you can flip it around and use it as a back attach one so say if he's on a long line for training we use it that way... Are you planning on muzzling the pup out on walks when it gets older - if so you could maybe go for something like a dogmatic which will pass as a muzzle and help with the pulling too?

Anyhoos for not being able to get his attention - I'd suggest working on a 'look' command where you teach the dog to stop what it's doing and look at you - also the treats you use outside need to be really high value treats - the jackpot for your dog eg hotdogs, chicken etc. So for the look command you basically want eye contact with the dog focusing on you, you can look up videos on youtube etc but the jist is that you stand in front of the dog with a treat and wait for them to look up at you, as soon as you get eye contact you click (buy a clicker ) and reward after a few rounds you can add the word 'Look!' the second you get eye contact. Then you just pratice - around the house, when you're playing etc etc.. Once he's looking at you inside take the training outside, every few steps give a look command and treat with high value treats. Just keep praticing and he should get better and better - eg if I shout look to my dog when he's away from me off lead in the park he'll come running over to me to get his treat - before when he was out he didn't listen to a word I said.

tk123

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

choke chain

On a 16 week old pup!?

DBB

tk123 wrote: »

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

choke chain

On a 16 week old pup!?

On any dog? :-o

OP, choke chains belong in the dark ages, there's never any need to resort to them, for many reasons, chief amongst them that without hurting the dog, they can't work.
Tk123 has given great tips above, but I will also give a big thumbs up to the Easy Walk harness, they're a great aid to helping you implement all of the advice Tk gave!
You'll probably need to get a medium one for him, with a view to getting a large one when he's fully grown. Make absolutely certain you fit it on him as per recommendations. If you Google, you'll find a really good video showing you how to fit it.
Any front-attachment harness is good, but having tried and tested all of them, the Easy Walk fits well and is good value.
Good luck!

Léan

Thanks for the responses guys

kildare.17hmr; I hope you're joking I would never use a choke chain on a dog. I think they're very cruel, I would hate to hurt my dog in any way.

tk123; That's some really helpful advice, thank you! I didn't think about the high value treats at all, i was walking him this evening and he was getting bored of the doggy biscuits very quickly. It'l be some chicken tomorrow I think!

I would like to avoid muzzling if possible. He is a very gentle puppy, even despite the pulling; i think it's just out of curiosity he does it, there's always a new smell, sound, car etc.. I am lucky that I live in a very dog friendly area, so hopefully I will be able to avoid it.

The look command is something I will start working on straight away, that sounds excellent. He is already responding very well to 'sit' and ok to 'stay', so this could be the next step. Where would i pick up a clicker? Again this is something i've heard very positive things about. I had a look for one in Maxi Zoo earlier today but couldn't find one.

DBB; thank you for your advice. I'm with you 100% about choke chains, I think they're barbaric. I think I will try and get an Easy Walk harness so, and hopefully alongside training things will improve

What shops sell the Easy Walk? I know they are readily available online, but if I could pick one up somewhere tomorrow it'd be even better.


Sorry for the long post, but I really want to make sure I get things right from the beginning with this dog. He has already had a rough start in the world and I would love to see him thrive like he deserves

kildare.17hmr

No not joking and i dont think they are cruel, they do work

suziwalsh

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

No not joking and i dont think they are cruel, they do work

The OP will be left with more problems than just lead pulling if you use a choke chain. They are extremely cruel, unfortunately as dogs are so hairly you rarely get to see the damage done to the neck. There is no need to use such an out dated training tool when there are so many welfare friendly alternatives. Using a choke chain you will most likely get a lead aggressive dog who has breathing difficulties and disc/spinal problems down the line not to mention the bad relationship you will build up with your dog. They should be banned.

Taltos

OP - we got our easy harness from DTI in Blanchardstown - I think they have an online store but since our dog is in daycare there we just pick up what we need. Also they have clickers normally on the counter. (They have done training sessions in Cork so definitely check their website if you want).

Just started the clicker training a while ago.

TK123's advice is spot on - I normally walk two dogs totally 13+ stone with one arm. 99% of the time the loose lead training works great, when it doesn't the harness comes into play.

Would never consider one of those choke chains or that other one with a small pinch - we have been consistent with the walking training. Basically as soon - and I mean immediately we feel ANY pull on the lead we stop dead - get some crying sometimes a little pulling especially if I am walking both dogs but it works.
Funny sometimes to see a person being dragged by a smaller dog - as if size means you don't need to teach your dog proper walking ettiquette.

My vet also recommended the lead set that loops around the dogs muzzle - but we didn't go there. Look - consistency is the key here - if you let your dog move forward even once when they are pulling then you are on a slippery slope. Make the choice today - "you pull, we stop". And only move forwards again when the dog comes back to your side.

As an FYI - after doing this for a few months I did have one rotten day where one dog pulled constantly all the way back to the car in the woods. At most, and I am not kidding you, at most I got 2 steps before she leapt forwards again. Probably my worst walk so far - trick was to stay calm (almost impossible) and keep with the training. Cannot remember how long it took to get back to the car but I was ages in that woods that day.

Update: On the road - just wait for him, try his name or the look. Use high reward treats - and even reward as you walk when he looks at you uncalled for. Sometimes you will just have to wait - so wait, don't rush. Remember this is a high distraction area and your dog is still a young puppy - just make sure each walk is a positive experience - and tailor your walks so that if your dog is hugely distracted you can afford the extra time for this part of their socialisation.

Whispered

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

No not joking and i dont think they are cruel, they do work

Of course they work, but at what cost? Many things work when training dogs, but why harm the dog when it's totally unnecessary to do so?

OP my husband discovered something very funny on a walk a few days ago. He noticed that the dog was walking very well,he usually doesn't walk well for him at all. It turns out, the dog had stepped over his lead and it was crossed under his body so when he pulled it turned him around. It had a similar effect to his front connection harness.

I wouldn't recommend it over a harness, but handy for quick trips to the car etc.

getz

Whispered wrote: »

Of course they work, but at what cost? Many things work when training dogs, but why harm the dog when it's totally unnecessary to do so?

OP my husband discovered something very funny on a walk a few days ago. He noticed that the dog was walking very well,he usually doesn't walk well for him at all. It turns out, the dog had stepped over his lead and it was crossed under his body so when he pulled it turned him around. It had a similar effect to his front connection harness.

I wouldn't recommend it over a harness, but handy for quick trips to the car etc.

using a harness does not work,in fact the opposite,the harness only makes the dog pull more,i have a special bully harness that lifts the dogs head up if the dog pulls,great on other dogs but has only limited effect on mine,the best tip i have seen,is to have a pocket full of treats,[mini kibles ect] and the dog will walk along side you expecting something ,

Taltos

Well I am just back from a really leasurely stroll on the beach.
Both dogs fitted with the SoftTouch harness - one of the most relaxed walks in a while. Had to stop only 4 or 5 times to get the message across and then one of mine started stopping too - preventing me from walking...

We have used these style harnesses since they were young pups - and yes sometimes it is frustrating - but keep your cool - and walks like today happen.

I have to say I was not all that hopeful when we got the harnesses - I had read so many reviews saying it made dogs pull worse - looking back over the last few months I can see that yes that does happen - but only where the people walking are NOT 100% consistent. Dogs are not stupid - they learn that if they pull and move forward they will pull more - conversly - if they pull and stop and always stop then they had better slow down a bit.

Might take some time - and trust me I have had rotten days but today was one of the best.

getz

you can take mine next week,i can just see you racing down the beach with your hair flying

Taltos

getz wrote: »

you can take mine next week,i can just see you racing down the beach with your hair flying

I am not saying it is easy or immediate - but you need to be 100% consistent.
If you are allowing your dog to pull you flying down the beach then how is that showing the dog not to pull.
You have to stand your ground and not budge an inch - each and every single time they pull.

If this still does not work then maybe speak with a professional training - possibly they may recommend that head thing. Either that or check that your harness is correctly fitted - when the dog pulls forwards the harness should turn the dog back to you - if it does not then the harness is not correctly sized.

Don't mean to be preachy on this - just having seen it work I feel confident it can be done - but let me kid you not - it has taken a long time and more patience than I have to get here (today anyway, tomorrow is a different days walk)

Kash

I can never get over some peoples reaction to choke chains. Practically every country in the world has anti animal cruelty laws - do you think choke and pinch collars would be readily available in petshops if they were cruel? Do you think that your vet would recommend them if they were going to damage the dogs throat?

There is nothing wrong with choke or pinch collars if they are used correctly - the pinch ones do look like torture devices, but actually closely mimic a pack leaders response by nipping the throat for misbehaviour, so the dog understands very quickly.

My dogs are as excited as only dogs can get to hear the rattle of their semi-choke chain, but it was tails curled under for the full walk when I used a halti, and the one time I made the mistake of putting on a harness, I found out what the sled feels like - it turned into a pulling competition.

Different dogs suit different collars - the trick is knowing how to use them correctly.

So, OP, use whatever collar suits both you and your dog, and spend lots of time reinforcing the good behavior. You're maiking progress in the park, the roads will follow. And it never hurts to have some bacon in your pocket

tk123

getz wrote: »

using a harness does not work,in fact the opposite,the harness only makes the dog pull more,i have a special bully harness that lifts the dogs head up if the dog pulls,great on other dogs but has only limited effect on mine,the best tip i have seen,is to have a pocket full of treats,[mini kibles ect] and the dog will walk along side you expecting something ,

The easy walk is a front attach harness - they don't encourage pulling because if the dog pulls they pull themselves around in a circle and get nowhere. They're kind of like a bridle on a horse?

OP we had the sensible/sensation harnesses before and I prefer the easy walk because the loop you attach the lead to is on a martingale loop thing so it's like a D ring sticking out from the dogs body instead of an O ring flush againts them on the seni ones - so the clip off the lead isn't rubbing against the dog - I hope that makes sense. When you're measuring up if the dog is between sizes go for the smaller size - my guy was between medium-large and large - I got the large and it only just fit him - I got the medium large size and it's a much better fit for him. I got ours from friendsoffido.co.uk - they're quick enough with shipping. Fitting them is a lot less complicated then it sounds - if you need any help give me a shout.:)

Oh another thing I've found with it - my dog is on crate rest at the moment only he doesn't realise that his leg is broken :rolleyes: and wants to run around the place - I've been using a double ended lead with one end clipped to his collar and the other clipped to the harness and it's really helped to slow him down. Now he normally doesn't pull on the lead at all but with him being cooped up all day and only allowed out to the loo 3 times he's a bit eager to get out into the garden so this has helped a lot. I tried a gentle leader head collar with him last year when he had his other leg done because they need to walk slowly to build the leg back up and I was very nervous walking him knowing that the bone was still in 2 pieces.. the double eneded setup is working the same as the head collar.

suziwalsh

Kash wrote: »

I can never get over some peoples reaction to choke chains. Practically every country in the world has anti animal cruelty laws - do you think choke and pinch collars would be readily available in petshops if they were cruel? Do you think that your vet would recommend them if they were going to damage the dogs throat?

Of course they'd be available.....to make money!!! They are out dated and cause far more damage then good. If my vet recommended one then I would get a new vet. They really cause problems and when there are welfare friendly alternatives then why use one. There are haltis/front connection harnesses and training. Research will show you just how damaging they can be....I would not be surprised if they we banned over the next few years.

kildare.17hmr

Like KASH my shepard and pointer get excited when they hear the choke chains coming out, the pointer sits and waits for me to put his on and the shepard runs around like a lunatic he gets that excited. If they choke the dog the dog is doing it them selves and they cop onto this very quickly and stop, 2 big hardy dogs a choke chain is not going to do them any harm at all unless your mistreating the dog when its on. Some people here are way to quick to pull the cruel card

getz

my bully harness is very like the easy walk,its designed to gently discourage your dog from pulling by tightening slightly across the chest and shoulder blades,only problem it dont work on a 11 month four stone bullie,still its my third bulldog ,and i know they slow down after 18 months,on the plus ,i have now strong arms

falabo

bought the easy walk harness, made no difference, was still able to pull and the thing was sliding sideways, very very hard to adjust. I ended it selling it on ebay. have been watching videos on youtube, really seems to work though, dont know where I went wrong. my dogs are far too excited for this.

DBB

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Like KASH my shepard and pointer get excited when they hear the choke chains coming out, the pointer sits and waits for me to put his on and the shepard runs around like a lunatic he gets that excited. If they choke the dog the dog is doing it them selves and they cop onto this very quickly and stop, 2 big hardy dogs a choke chain is not going to do them any harm at all unless your mistreating the dog when its on. Some people here are way to quick to pull the cruel card

Back in the days of yore, my dogs would take the shock off the radio fence in order to get to me if I left without them. The fact that they were fine at the other side isn't the point. I also know dogs whose owners routinely abuse them with kicks, slaps etc, yet the dogs still appear to adore their owners. Dogs will endure a lot of discomfort.
Note: I do not use the radio fence any more. I also used choke chains as a kid, we knew no better at the time, but as one who has evolved from using such gear, I feel in a position to give an accurate view of both.
It's impossible to justify using choke chains, because in order for them to do their job, the dog must undergo a degree of discomfort. In light of the fact that there are so many alternatives that do no harm, and are more effective, justification of choke chains is a tremendously weak argument.
I find people who try to justify them are rather entrenched in their views on dogs and dog training, because dog training has moved on from the Dark Ages, and we owe it to our dogs to always strive to use equipment and techniques that do no harm.
To contrast with the many, many people I see being towed along by their dogs wearing choke chains, both myself and other posters here have helped hundreds of owners lead train their dogs. Most of the dogs I help are already confirmed pullers. They're big dogs, small dogs, and in-between dogs... Size is not an issue and really makes me laugh when people justify their use because they've a big dog! But I have never, ever had to use a choke chain to train any of these dogs, and I never will, for reasons already stated.
So, justify a piece of gear which must use discomfort and avoidance-of-discomfort in order to work all you want, but I find such justifications groundless in light of modern equipment and training. And a bit tiresome, truth be told.

tk123

A lot of people use choke chains incorrectly and as a quick fix rather than addressing the issue of the dog pulling/lunging and it makes the problem worse. For example a dog who lunges towards other dogs gets choked and after a while associates the pain/discomfort of being choked with other dogs and then becomes aggressive towards them. I have honestly never seen a dog on a choke chain that wasn't pulling like mad and choking itself because the owner hasn't bothered to train it not to pull

I don't understand the argument that it's a 'big dog' so that's why it needs a choke chain - any dog can be trained not to pull regardless of the size. My dog is only 30 kgs which is skinny for a retriever but he's seriously strong - it's all muscle as he's burned all the fat off with hydro sessions! That might still seem small compared to a 'big dog' but i'm 5 foot... and a girl.

toadfly

tk123 wrote: »

i'm 5 foot... and a girl.

I thought you were a boy

tk123

TillyGirl wrote: »

I thought you were a boy

:eek::eek: :pac::pac:

borderlinemeath

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Like KASH my shepard and pointer get excited when they hear the choke chains coming out, the pointer sits and waits for me to put his on and the shepard runs around like a lunatic he gets that excited. If they choke the dog the dog is doing it them selves and they cop onto this very quickly and stop, 2 big hardy dogs a choke chain is not going to do them any harm at all unless your mistreating the dog when its on. Some people here are way to quick to pull the cruel card

Kikdare, may I ask what age you are? I only ask because I picture you as a 50+ man who has entrenched ideas about pet and animal treatment and no amount of opinions/trainer recommendations/expert opinions are going to change it, even though training methods and behaviour training have come on leaps and bounds from the outdated methods you use.

While I know everybody is entitled to their opinion, you tend to light a fuse with yours on this board. I know you're not trolling, but sometimes it can appear that way and can be very upsetting for posters like myself who care a lot for their pets and treat them as family.

OP - I use a halti on a very excitable irish setter. It's the only thing that I find works. Luckily she is fine in traffic so I can't help you with that problem. I also have a body harness and she does pull more on it, she doesn't choke herself but it can be very uncomfortable for the walker.

kildare.17hmr

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Kikdare, may I ask what age you are? I only ask because I picture you as a 50+ man who has entrenched ideas about pet and animal treatment and no amount of opinions/trainer recommendations/expert opinions are going to change it, even though training methods and behaviour training have come on leaps and bounds from the outdated methods you use.

While I know everybody is entitled to their opinion, you tend to light a fuse with yours on this board. I know you're not trolling, but sometimes it can appear that way and can be very upsetting for posters like myself who care a lot for their pets and treat them as family.

OP - I use a halti on a very excitable irish setter. It's the only thing that I find works. Luckily she is fine in traffic so I can't help you with that problem. I also have a body harness and she does pull more on it, she doesn't choke herself but it can be very uncomfortable for the walker.

Im 26. I Dont think i light a fuse my opinion is just different to others here, I think i put my point accross quite well here most of the time:o Infact i would say others light a fuse with me because they dont agree with my way of doing things! I come from a dog breeding and showing backround, have had dogs as part of my family since i was born, my 4 dogs which i have are treated like part of my family, one sleeps on the bed with me and my fiance:rolleyes: another sleeps at the bottom of the stairs most of the time after we go to bed, before that she is usually in the kids room sleeping between their beds

I certainly dont mean to upset anyone with my posts and i hope your not implying i dont care alot for my pets because nothing could be further from the truth tbh

getz

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Im 26. I Dont think i light a fuse my opinion is just different to others here, I think i put my point accross quite well here most of the time:o Infact i would say others light a fuse with me because they dont agree with my way of doing things! I come from a dog breeding and showing backround, have had dogs as part of my family since i was born, my 4 dogs which i have are treated like part of my family, one sleeps on the bed with me and my fiance:rolleyes: another sleeps at the bottom of the stairs most of the time after we go to bed, before that she is usually in the kids room sleeping between their beds

I certainly dont mean to upset anyone with my posts and i hope your not implying i dont care alot for my pets because nothing could be further from the truth tbh

they all meen well,but doggy people tend to over-react when it comes to the way people treat animals,i am always standing on toes

borderlinemeath

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Im 26. I Dont think i light a fuse my opinion is just different to others here, I think i put my point accross quite well here most of the time:o Infact i would say others light a fuse with me because they dont agree with my way of doing things! I come from a dog breeding and showing backround, have had dogs as part of my family since i was born, my 4 dogs which i have are treated like part of my family, one sleeps on the bed with me and my fiance:rolleyes: another sleeps at the bottom of the stairs most of the time after we go to bed, before that she is usually in the kids room sleeping between their beds

I certainly dont mean to upset anyone with my posts and i hope your not implying i dont care alot for my pets because nothing could be further from the truth tbh

Thanks for that:)

You have always spoken in high regard for your dogs, but the impression I would have got from your previous posts is that your dogs would have been kept outside, slept outside and treated like working dogs rather than family pets, and that every chance you get you would shoot a stray or feral cat.:o. To the outsider looking at your posts on this forum that's how it comes across! It's great to know that's not the case.

OK, so you're not of an "elderly persuasion", so can I ask why you wouldn't consider using more "humane" methods? When I got my first "own dog" rather than family dogs I grew up with, I researched different training methods, feeding, containment etc and there were huge changes to what had gone on with the dogs I grew up with less than 10 years previously and my own dog who I was about to make every decision for.

It's like babies:D, there's ongoing research and every few years the experts come out with a new "best way" to feed/sleep/care for baby, sometimes you get the same or better result but with an easier/kinder method. Same for pets really. That's just how I see it.:)

DBB

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Im 26. I Dont think i light a fuse my opinion is just different to others here, I think i put my point accross quite well here most of the time:o Infact i would say others light a fuse with me because they dont agree with my way of doing things!

I enjoy a lot of your posts kildare, but I do think you "light fires" from time to time because your way of doing things, dog training-wise, jars somewhat with the more enlightened training methods that are available to us. They're not new methods, they just got lost somewhere between the First World War and now, but are making a comeback.
It is hard to accept the opinion of someone advocating the use of equipment that has been shown to be harmful both physically and behaviourally, particularly when there is far superior gear available which causes no harm. I do tend to find that this preponderance for use of choke chains (and pack-leader theories, for that matter) tends to be more common amongst men.. it's not exclusive to ye, but it definitely more common amongst ye;).

I come from a dog breeding and showing backround, have had dogs as part of my family since i was born, my 4 dogs which i have are treated like part of my family, one sleeps on the bed with me and my fiance:rolleyes: another sleeps at the bottom of the stairs most of the time after we go to bed, before that she is usually in the kids room sleeping between their beds

That's great that your dogs enjoy such a nice comfort of life. As for the dog breeding and showing thing, many in the show fraternity are quite entrenched in their attitudes to training dogs, and do tend to hide behind the "I've been around dogs for years" defence. But it just doesn't wash, I'm afraid. I've also been around dogs for years... I've also had eyes all my life but that doesn't make me an optician. Being around dogs for years does not necessarily mean one has been doing things as well as they should be for all that time.
But I'm not too surprised that you've inherited the attitude you have if you're from this background.
I don't want to seem disengenuous to all dog show people, I know there are some who are really progressive and open to changing old ways, but there are so many who just won't budge because they fear change and fear their lack of knowledge of dog learning processes being exposed, I expect.

getz wrote: »

they all meen well,but doggy people tend to over-react when it comes to the way people treat animals,i am always standing on toes

I think this is an easy shot to throw at people, getz. It paints people who argue for ethical training as hysterical. Maybe some of us are, but I prefer to base my opinions on hard evidence rather than strident emotion. I hope I've already made my point: there is no need to use harmful equipment not just for ethical reasons, but because there are more effective alternatives that do no harm available.
Anyone who keeps harking back to the "I've been around for dogs for years".. (like that confers some sort of right to use abusive training methods:rolleyes:), or that keeps insisting that it's okay to use gear proven to be harmful, when there are alternatives will always "step on toes", and rightfully so. It's only right that outdated and potentially harmful attitudes to training are challenged.

Léan

Thank you so much for all your advice guys, i'l definitely be taking it all on board.

Just re the harness again, i've rang around and I can't seem to find anywhere that has the Easy Walk Harness in Cork, I did find somewhere that has the Halti though (Creedons Doggy Daycare), they said they have one similar to the Easy Walk, as in you clip the lead to the front of the dog also, as i want to avoid putting anything around his snout.

Would this be a bad second choice? Am I better off just waiting to find the Easy Walk?

Whispered

getz wrote: »

using a harness does not work,in fact the opposite,the harness only makes the dog pull more

This is not the case with a properly chosen, fitted and used harness, you're very sure in your statement, but really it's an opinion, not fact.

getz

Whispered wrote: »

This is not the case with a properly chosen, fitted and used harness, you're very sure in your statement, but really it's an opinion, not fact.

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

tk123

getz wrote: »

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

The OP is asking about a front attach harness though - sled dogs wear back attach ones

getz

DBB wrote: »

I enjoy a lot of your posts kildare, but I do think you "light fires" from time to time because your way of doing things, dog training-wise, jars somewhat with the more enlightened training methods that are available to us. They're not new methods, they just got lost somewhere between the First World War and now, but are making a comeback.
It is hard to accept the opinion of someone advocating the use of equipment that has been shown to be harmful both physically and behaviourally, particularly when there is far superior gear available which causes no harm. I do tend to find that this preponderance for use of choke chains (and pack-leader theories, for that matter) tends to be more common amongst men.. it's not exclusive to ye, but it definitely more common amongst ye;).





That's great that your dogs enjoy such a nice comfort of life. As for the dog breeding and showing thing, many in the show fraternity are quite entrenched in their attitudes to training dogs, and do tend to hide behind the "I've been around dogs for years" defence. But it just doesn't wash, I'm afraid. I've also been around dogs for years... I've also had eyes all my life but that doesn't make me an optician. Being around dogs for years does not necessarily mean one has been doing things as well as they should be for all that time.
But I'm not too surprised that you've inherited the attitude you have if you're from this background.
I don't want to seem disengenuous to all dog show people, I know there are some who are really progressive and open to changing old ways, but there are so many who just won't budge because they fear change and fear their lack of knowledge of dog learning processes being exposed, I expect.




I think this is an easy shot to throw at people, getz. It paints people who argue for ethical training as hysterical. Maybe some of us are, but I prefer to base my opinions on hard evidence rather than strident emotion. I hope I've already made my point: there is no need to use harmful equipment not just for ethical reasons, but because there are more effective alternatives that do no harm available.
Anyone who keeps harking back to the "I've been around for dogs for years".. (like that confers some sort of right to use abusive training methods:rolleyes:), or that keeps insisting that it's okay to use gear proven to be harmful, when there are alternatives will always "step on toes", and rightfully so. It's only right that outdated and potentially harmful attitudes to training are challenged.

you came over very hard in your post,and i felt i had to come in in his defence,i do believe that not many people are aware how dangerous it is to use choke chains on dogs,also 35 years ago i used to show dogs as well,and it did upset me that [only a few] some of the dogs were not at all happy to be standing around the show halls up to four hrs at a time.on my pup i have used a harness and a collar and leed [at the same time] and i had a limited sucess

Whispered

The fact that many dogs walk on harnesses without pulling would suggest to me that they pull because they have been trained and/or bred to pull. A correct harness and training will not cause a dog to pull. If that was the case, and if as you said a harness will cause a dog to pull, then nobody would use harnesses because every dog on a harness would pull.

I have one dog who I walk on a front connection harness because a back connecting one give him too much strength, and he does pull harder on it - so I chose the correct harness and he doesn't pull. I have another dog who I walk on a back connecting harness and he's as happy as anything to toddle alongside me.

Harnesses do not cause dogs to pull, training or lack of does. Not every harness will suit every dog, but likewise to state so surely that harnesses do the opposite of what they are said to do is just not the case.

Taltos

Léan wrote: »

Thank you so much for all your advice guys, i'l definitely be taking it all on board.

Just re the harness again, i've rang around and I can't seem to find anywhere that has the Easy Walk Harness in Cork, I did find somewhere that has the Halti though (Creedons Doggy Daycare), they said they have one similar to the Easy Walk, as in you clip the lead to the front of the dog also, as i want to avoid putting anything around his snout.

Would this be a bad second choice? Am I better off just waiting to find the Easy Walk?

I just did a quick google search and found one online store in Ireland that sell the Easy Walk harness - not sure if links are allowed here

Name was: Brendaspets
I have not used them so I have no idea how good they are (the easy walk and Brenda's)

cocker5

OP..

Personally i wouldnt use a choke chain they can do alot of damage to a dogs throat... and the fact is while they are being trained on a choke chain before the fear is choked into them .... the chain "chokes" their neck.... it can have long term damage... its like scaring them into waling correctly for you... or they get hurt :eek:

i feel your pain with regards to pulling... my cocker was a nightmare for pulling... so i tried the halti - didnt work as it pulled on his eyes lids too and gave him infections.... tried the gentle leader.... same problem.... i tried a harness, yeah it was great for him gave him more leverage to pull me with. i do use a harness to bring him jogging and also for cycling him but not for walking him..

I now use the dogmatic..... while he doesnt like it, it makes walking far more enjoyable for both of us.... i ordered it online and never looked back....

http://www.dogmatic.org.uk/

What about a slip lead? They're not as "bad" as choke chains.

kopfan77

you cant beat the halti or dogmatic head collar....takes the power away from the dog in that they cant use the strength in their neck/shoulders/back to pull away. As soon as they go to with these the lead being clipped on below their chins simply pulls their head to the side and they lose the power struggle....you are now in charge and not them

I have two german shepherds and no way could i dream of walking the two of them together without these.
Harnesses i found still give the edge to the dog as they still have a hell of a lot more power and strength than they do with the head collars

ISDW

getz wrote: »

why do you think its used on sledge dogs,any breed of dog that tries to be in front of you when walking[leeding] will think great i am working.

Completely different style of harness. A sled dog would use an X back harness, with an attachment at the stump of their tail, so that their whole body is pulling. Some teams now wear long distance harnesses, but again, the attachment for the line is on top, so the power of pulling comes from the chest and shoulders. The newer, non pulling harnesses are attached at the front, to prevent the dog from pulling. Just because its called a harness, doesn't mean its the same thing, just that its not a collar:D

axle108

cocker5 wrote: »

OP..

Personally i wouldnt use a choke chain they can do alot of damage to a dogs throat... and the fact is while they are being trained on a choke chain before the fear is choked into them .... the chain "chokes" their neck.... it can have long term damage... its like scaring them into waling correctly for you... or they get hurt

Choke chains are not meant to be used in this manner, which is why they cause the damage. While a lot of respondents here hate them and thats there choice which i respect, i use one but lightly with timing to deliver a quick correction for unwanted behaviour. I also do lots of what above have said regarding stop when pulling, redirection etc. Lots of dogs will pull, no matter what collection of collars, leads, easy leaders etc you use. It can take a long time with a lot of training and bundles of patience to rectify a puller.

DBB

axle108 wrote: »

Choke chains are not meant to be used in this manner, which is why they cause the damage. While a lot of respondents here hate them and thats there choice which i respect, i use one but lightly with timing to deliver a quick correction for unwanted behaviour.

There is no doubt, choke chains, shock collars, all these pieces of gear can work when used properly and with precision timing.
However!
It's the "correction" bit that's not necessary when you're using a fonrt-attachment harness. Even a light "correction" still involves having to teach the dog by avoidance. A "correction" is inherently unpleasant for a dog, to some degree, and the choke chain works because the dog is trying to avoid being corrected.
This is training by negative reinforcement. It training terms, a good trainer will avoid using techniques which utilise negative reinforcement, because the fall-out from negative reinforcment is potentially too much. I've said it on previous posts about shock collars, it's not so much the correction that causes the problem for the dog (although it is if it's too rough), it's the anticipation of the correction that is so potentially harmful.
Axle, whilst I appreciate that you deem the choke chain to be appropriate training gear in this day of availability of gentler equipment, there are dogs out there who fall apart at the slightest inkling of discomfort, making them very difficult to train at all. Many other dogs become immune to the sensation altogether, others just get peed off with it.
Then, there's always the (very common) eventuality that the dog lunges at a passing dog/bike/car... there is nothing the handler can do here to soften the harsh, albeit inadvertent "correction" the dog receives from the tightned choke chain in these circumstances. And it is precisely these circumstances where a dog learns to dislike other dogs/bikes/cars... he lunged at them before, it hurt, and the dog now has a conditioned dislike of the object which "caused" the hurt to happen, i.e. the other dog/bike/car.

To the poster above who asked about slip leads... these are not meant to be used as an exercising lead, they are designed for people who are handling (usually unknown) dogs and having to move them from one place to the other without the dog wriggling out of the collar (pounds, rescues, are examples). They are also used by shooters when gathering their dogs up to go from A to B, as gundogs should not wear a collar whilst working. But no, not meant to be used as a training aid at all. After all, they tighten up as soon as the dog puts pressure on them, the tightening noose choking the dog. At least the choke chain has a quick-release effect if used properly, but slip leads not so much.

Helen1976

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

cjf

Iv think iv just about tried every harness / headcollar out there at this stage my fella just doesnt seem to get the no pulling thing! Done classes, been working with treats for 2 years and when we go on our 'training' walks one on one he will stop pulling but add another dog or two to the mix and no amount of treats will work! Had the front harness and the grazes and grass stains to prove it didn't work for us! Always recommend the dogmatic as it made the walk manageable but read a post on here recommending the k9 headcollar so picked one up at the expo this year and it's making an improvement still early days with it but the training walks going great and can see glimpses of loose lead on the pack walks! It's ignited a spark of hope that had long gone out!! Also it doesn't ride up in his eyes he has a narrow muzzle (in comparison to his head size!) and the k9 headcollar just sits on his face no moving! I have more control and iv even gotten some lie downs out on our walks so he is listening more!! Good luck with your search for the solution that works for you op!!

Kash

I think some of the implications on here are a bit over the top: i.e: if I use a choke collar I love my dog less, or I am causing them pain, or distress.

I agree that they can cause damage, but only if used incorrectly or excessively. They work for my dogs, the dogs are happier with them than with a nose restraint halter like the dogmatic, which made them nervous and unhappy - and I would never make my dogs unhappy.

I have never tried a front attached harness (only a back one) so can't comment on that but it seems that people do have lots of success with them which can only be a good thing.

One question for the harnesspihiles though, if you were caught short without your front connecting harness, and had to use a normal every day buckle collar and lead, would the dog pull? Or does the simple fact of using the special front fastening harness teach them not to?

I am still using the choke chain for one dog whilst going through the long process of stopping every time she pulls, but if there was a way to train her to walk with me while off the leash by using it, I would certainly consider it.

Whispered

Helen1976 wrote: »

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

Do you mean the dog was moved to the exercise area on a slip lead, or that the dog was walked on the slip lead for a distance?


I wouldn't be annoyed so much as confused - I would want to know if there was a reason it was used instead of the dogs own collar and lead. And I would explain that I wouldn't want it to be used again.

I think I'd probably ask about their other handling techniques too.

tk123

Kash wrote: »

One question for the harnesspihiles though, if you were caught short without your front connecting harness, and had to use a normal every day buckle collar and lead, would the dog pull? Or does the simple fact of using the special front fastening harness teach them not to?

.

I've forgotten ours a few times say at the beach where he's in his element and wants to go exploring etc and I've found that he might pull initially but once I correct him a couple of times he switches to collar mode and is grand. For correcting him I just stop until he stops and steps back to me and then give him a click (the clicker is clipped to his lead ) and away we go or we might do a few look commands - so he knows I have treats and will focus on staying beside me and not get distracted. I give him look commands regularly both on or off the lead - I've found it's trained him to check in with me evey now and again which I like - especially when he's off the lead.
He does know when it's ok to pull thou- if I tell him ready, steady, go! he runs and pulls me up the hill :pac::pac:

Helen1976

Whispered wrote: »

Helen1976 wrote: »

OT but would you be annoyed if your dog stayed in kennels and you were told that she used a slip lead to exercise your dog?? (because this is what happened me this week but I didn't know what a slip lead was!)

Do you mean the dog was moved to the exercise area on a slip lead, or that the dog was walked on the slip lead for a distance?


I wouldn't be annoyed so much as confused - I would want to know if there was a reason it was used instead of the dogs own collar and lead. And I would explain that I wouldn't want it to be used again.

I think I'd probably ask about their other handling techniques too.

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

andreac

Helen1976 wrote: »

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

If i left instructions to someone looking after my dog and they didnt follow them, i would be very annoyed and id let them know that and i certainly wouldnt use them again and i would be telling others why and make sure they werent recommended to use... Very foolish person, god knows what else they were doing behind your back if they said that to you:mad:

TooManyDogs

Léan wrote: »

I would like to avoid muzzling if possible

I can totally understand not wanting to muzzle your new baby but given that he's on the restricted breed list it would be very worthwhile to gently introduce a muzzle now. Make putting it on a game that he gets highly rewarded for, and gradually leave it on longer so that if you ever are stopped by a warden or guard you can slip one on him without freaking him out.

I love the Canny collar, I've had great success with them and I'm a major fan.

Zapperzy

Helen1976 wrote: »

Yes, he was walked the whole time on the slip lead. She gave me back my lead because she said she doesn't trust anyone else's leads?! She also said that she wouldn't be walking my other dog with his Easy Walk harness (which I love, by the way!) because they're "crap" and she's had loads of dogs escape from them?!

This slip lead incident has made up my mind for me - I won't be using those kennels anymore.

Thanks Whispered.

Yes I would be angry if my dog was exercised on a slip lead when they were given the harness which he is used to, obviously if that's what you normally use then he doesn't escape from it and if she's afraid he could escape then just check that it fits properly when she puts it on, but to just write it off totally as 'crap' is unacceptable in my opinion.

I would normally use slip leads when working in a vets if I have to move a dog from one area to another or to bring them outside quickly for a pee. Reason being is that I'd say over 50% of dogs that come in their collars are way too big on them and if they were to back up a little they'd slip it altogether and then your left holding a collar and lead and a loose dog running around. And I think owners would prefer that I use a slip lead as opposed to getting a call to say their dog has escaped and gone missing! :eek: If they come in with proper fitting collars or harnesses then I'd use those but I'd prefer not to take a chance if a collar is a little too loose.