WRONG BULL AND YOUNG HEIFER

ddogsbollix

It has just came to my notice that my neighbours charolais bull has got to one of my limousin heifers as she is starting to make a bag. the heifer is about 20 months and although she isnt to young im fearful that it might be out the side door job.

so i was wondering what should i be feeding her from now till calving..... just hay? etc.....

charityboy

if she is in good nick hay will be fine,much better feed than silage pre calving ,keep a bucket of precalver in front of her at all times and wouldnt do her any harm to give her an oral dose of trace minerals (chelated) and you could feed her oats as well for some energy ,all of the above could reduce the chance of using the side door

Kovu

ddogsbollix wrote: »

It has just came to my notice that my neighbours charolais bull has got to one of my limousin heifers as she is starting to make a bag. the heifer is about 20 months and although she isnt to young im fearful that it might be out the side door job.

so i was wondering what should i be feeding her from now till calving..... just hay? etc.....

^ what was said above.
No harm in asking the neighbour how his bull usually brings calves. If it's small shoulders and wide hips and you take a chance....or if it's usually wide shoulders and small hips so it may be worth the risk if your heifer isn't too muscly or fed.

Bizzum

How long along do you think she is?

essgee268

buy a gallon of apple cider vinegar and give her 100mls daily on nuts with mineral mixture for the last 6 weeks before calving, i do this to all heifers and pedigree cows for last 6 years, Had a 14 month old heifer calved with a 3/4 size calf with a small pull a few years back and she was in heat 10days later turned into 3rd or 4th best cow in herd.

Figerty

Whats the logic behind this?

essgee268 wrote: »

buy a gallon of apple cider vinegar and give her 100mls daily on nuts with mineral mixture for the last 6 weeks before calving, i do this to all heifers and pedigree cows for last 6 years, Had a 14 month old heifer calved with a 3/4 size calf with a small pull a few years back and she was in heat 10days later turned into 3rd or 4th best cow in herd.

essgee268

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dystokia[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the clinical name for difficult births. They are due to a potassium deficiency which causes constriction of the blood vessels to the cervix and uterus. Organically grown pastures are a safeguard; potassium should be readily obtainable in them. As a short-term preventative, add cider vinegar to the cows’ rations for a month or two coming up to calving. It can be added to feed at the rate of about a quarter of a pint three times a week or watered onto hay. This is far less trouble than pulling calves. The difference to the calving process when it is used is very marked.[/FONT]

jeff greene

Right, so it doesn't reduce calf size. Because calf size has everything to do with genetics and nothing to do with feeding. Research in last weeks AI supplement in the IFJ from NI reiterating that message.

Restricted feed, hay, oats etc do nothing but weaken the cow. So better to feed a correctly balanced diet and have a heifer with muscle tone and strength to calf a soapy healthy calf, no metabolic issues after ect.

Bizzum

jeff greene wrote: »

Restricted feed, hay, oats etc do nothing but weaken the cow.

Starving a cow will weaken her. Restricting feed will limit the flesh on the cow and indeed on the calf. I'd far sooner calve a big raw calf than a big fleshy calf.
I do think there is a happy balance.............If only I could pin-point it!

jeff greene

Bizzum wrote: »

Starving a cow will weaken her. Restricting feed will limit the flesh on the cow and indeed on the calf. I'd far sooner calve a big raw calf than a big fleshy calf.
I do think there is a happy balance.............If only I could pin-point it!

Not really, but that's research...

The happy balance is feeding the cow what she needs based on her condition score but with it balanced for minerals etc.. More likely to get metabolic problems than calving problems with fat cows.

Bizzum

jeff greene wrote: »

Not really, but that's research...

I'm slow to go against peer reviewed research, but some of it doesn't sit that well with me.
It's sometimes touted in the press, yet the Journal pointed out recently the increased incidences of CS's in cows this back end due to strong growth.
(I don't believe I'm quoting the IFJ.........Prob a lame argument so:D)

Conflats

a heifer calving down at this age (i.e 2yrs approx) has to eat for 3 things
-her own subsequent growth
-milk production after parturition
-the growth of the calf
if you restrict the heifer pre calving you also restrict her subsequent reproductive performance and push it the post calving anoestrus period
Best thing to do is have her bcs 3 feed her right dont skimp and things will be fine, good quality silage should do just fine

whelan1

i would take the wait and see approach , have had a few teenage pregnancies- not myself:D- one or 2 have just calved themselves, 1 needed a section....agree with other posters that said to feed her as normal

ddogsbollix

thanks for all the help lads. but im very interested in this apple cider vinegar... does it acutally work?
i would say the heifer is about 5 weeks from calving and from my experience helping the neighbour pull calves that charolais bull isnt easy calving.

whilst on the subject i also have another cow....... she is a fine big cow however she has had 3 calves all from easy bulls but i fine myself having to help her calf every year. it is as if she doesnt open fully or something??
anybody experienced this??

Curly Judge

ddogsbollix wrote: »

thanks for all the help lads. but im very interested in this apple cider vinegar... does it acutally work?
i would say the heifer is about 5 weeks from calving and from my experience helping the neighbour pull calves that charolais bull isnt easy calving.

whilst on the subject i also have another cow....... she is a fine big cow however she has had 3 calves all from easy bulls but i fine myself having to help her calf every year. it is as if she doesnt open fully or something??
anybody experienced this??

Could it be that you are intervening too early?
Apologies if this is a naive question.
My routine is to establish as early as possible if the head and front feet are in the correct presentation and then to leave the animal to get on with it.
So long as she is making progress, however slowly, I leave her to her own devices.
A friend of mine who worked on a large dairy farm in the UK told me of a routine they had over there with cows that didn't "open up" properly.
They used a "flutter valve" to administer calcium it through a vein in her neck and this usually had the desired effect.

charityboy

ddogsbollix wrote: »

thanks for all the help lads. but im very interested in this apple cider vinegar... does it acutally work?
i would say the heifer is about 5 weeks from calving and from my experience helping the neighbour pull calves that charolais bull isnt easy calving.

whilst on the subject i also have another cow....... she is a fine big cow however she has had 3 calves all from easy bulls but i fine myself having to help her calf every year. it is as if she doesnt open fully or something??
anybody experienced this??

dont know about apple cider vinegar as i have never used it ,we feed our cows good silage after drying off and they are put on hay 6 - 8 weeks away from calving depending on condition ,pre calver licks are put with them after drying off and kept with them up until they calve ,they also get a pre calving trace mineral and vitamin drench 6- 8 weeks from calving to insure levels are kept right ,we run a charolais bull and handle very few if any at calving but before i started this programe i saw plenty of hardship,if you tick all the boxes pre calving and leave one out no matter how big or small you think it will impact your herd it will come back and bite you in the a#s ,to often we blame a certain cow or bull but more often than not its the fella lookin at the cow is to blame through no fault of his own may i add,if you expierence hardship you will learn fairly quick and if you sit back and hope it will go away you wont be sitting for long

pakalasa

charityboy wrote: »

...we feed our cows good silage after drying off and they are put on hay 6 - 8 weeks away from calving depending on condition ....

Charityboy,
Based on what you've seen do you think this keeps the calves small, as in they have smaller frames, or does it just keep condition off both the calf and cow?
A few people on here, have referred to research etc and said that restricting feed like this does not keep the calf small, but does take condition off the cow. That is, calves are still the same size, but are more like a bag of bones than, good and thick.

charityboy

pakalasa wrote: »

Charityboy,
Based on what you've seen do you think this keeps the calves small, as in they have smaller frames, or does it just keep condition off both the calf and cow?
A few people on here, have referred to research etc and said that restricting feed like this does not keep the calf small, but does take condition off the cow. That is, calves are still the same size, but are more like a bag of bones than, good and thick.[/QUOTE
sorry should have say i feed hay ad lib ,i wouldnt class it as restricting feed as they are never without ,maybe an hour or two but that would be the outside of it ,as regards calf size i would have some big some small (usually out of small cows) but most are fine calves so probably would be along the lines of most farms ,the cows if anything would be probably a little on the fat side ,mineral uptake from silage is close to nil as it has to ferment but hay would have higher mineral values as it is only dried grass so that is one reason i use it ,as an example if you had a pen of cows to be fattened you would feed silage and meal but when you are drying off you would give some hay to keep them full yet they wont put on a lot of condition with hay on its own ,as i said its a process and thats one part ,one thing you would see is fellas feeding ****e silage and restricting it just before calving and it would probably get the calf out of the cow but it would bring some serious issues in to the breeding season and also bags of bones of cows and calves and feck all milk and poor quality at that

jeff greene

charityboy wrote: »

sorry should have say i feed hay ad lib ,i wouldnt class it as restricting feed as they are never without ,maybe an hour or two but that would be the outside of it ,as regards calf size i would have some big some small (usually out of small cows) but most are fine calves so probably would be along the lines of most farms ,the cows if anything would be probably a little on the fat side ,mineral uptake from silage is close to nil as it has to ferment but hay would have higher mineral values as it is only dried grass so that is one reason i use it ,as an example if you had a pen of cows to be fattened you would feed silage and meal but when you are drying off you would give some hay to keep them full yet they wont put on a lot of condition with hay on its own ,as i said its a process and thats one part ,one thing you would see is fellas feeding ****e silage and restricting it just before calving and it would probably get the calf out of the cow but it would bring some serious issues in to the breeding season and also bags of bones of cows and calves and feck all milk and poor quality at that

Not sure about that, any references.

Cows naturally will direct their energy to the calf whether getting it from feed or from body fat reserves. The value of hay and other dry forages is it maintains DMI and rumen fill at a time when cows have low appetites. The key is correct CS.

charityboy

was told that by a nutritionist a few years ago so would only have her word for it would love a few answers if its not the case

whelan1

jeff greene wrote: »

Not sure about that, any references.

Cows naturally will direct their energy to the calf whether getting it from feed or from body fat reserves. The value of hay and other dry forages is it maintains DMI and rumen fill at a time when cows have low appetites. The key is correct CS.

yes agree ,do you ever notice if a cow is having twins,her feet suffer as well as her condition

Kovu

whelan1 wrote: »

yes agree ,do you ever notice if a cow is having twins,her feet suffer as well as her condition

Agree, Her hair goes dry and no spare skin behind the shoulder. We just find that the hay 'tightens' them up a bit more and is also more fodder friendly if we only have one or two in.