The rehabilitation of Fianna Fail -is it true ?Fine Gael Collapse is it true ?

CDfm

Here are two articles. The first from Ivan Yates former FG TD and Minister and the second by Willie O'Dea

There’s an enormous hole in the electoral market. Who will fill it?

By Ivan Yates
Thursday, October 27, 2011
IF opinion polls are even partially correct, there’ll be serious head scratching amongst political insiders. The phenomenal rise and rise of Sean Gallagher has confounded pundits and political parties. At the close of nominations, a month ago, his ratings tallied at 9% to 12% - fifth place. Nothing emerged that adds to his CV.
His visibility originates from TV reality show Dragons Den, founder of Smart Homes and backroom work for Fianna Fáil. He has not advocated unique creativity for Office of President or adopted any radical policies. So, who are the 40% supporters and why support him?

His ostensible point of difference, other than marginal youth, is that he resonates most with FF. As more background material on his links with the party appear, the greater his popularity rises. His pro-enterprise rhetoric and self-help philosophy echoes sentiments of the soldiers of destiny. On moral and ethical questions, he prevaricates in the middle ground of pragmatism. If it looks, walks, talks and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. Despite this branding by opponents and media, Gallagher has accidentally or deliberately stumbled upon consolidating the FF family.

Current consensus was that the touch of FF was toxic. The extent of blame and anger associated with Bertie Ahern/Brian Cowen governments was deemed to be lethal in the last general election. Independent FF TDs survived while the party lost 57 seats. This backdrop resulted in many traditional FF workers and supporters abandoning mainstream membership. Disaffected former activists became political orphans, no longer at home in a discredited FF, but still aligned to historic ideals and identity of Dev’s party. Their DNA and gene pool background remained intact.

Voters (around 40% of the electorate) who elected Bertie Ahern as Taoiseach in 1997, 2002 and 2007 have congealed again, this time around Sean Gallagher. Prospect of such an early redemption has prompted wholesale denial amongst FF’s enemies. They recoil in shock at thoughts of election to the Áras of a "Fianna Fáil builder ". They cannot accept voters could be so gullible, so quickly. These same people decry Michael Lowry topping the poll in Tipperary North. Significant tranches of voters don’t care if a candidate had breaches of company law, drew down personal corporate loans or received state business grants.

This must send most chilling messages to Fine Gael and Labour backbenchers. Many represent all seats in their constituency, providing no leeway to avoid future carnage and decimation. The core FG national vote reached its previous lowest level in 1990 with Austin Currie’s 17%. Gay Mitchell may obtain one in four of the party vote procured last February — at 9%. Enda Kenny requested "lending" votes then, he was facilitated. Terms and conditions were strictly short-term. Voter volatility has never been more acute in our electoral history. Over past several months, the Cabinet resembled one massive public relations machine. Heralding restoration of economic stability and controlled public finances has been the main message at home and abroad.

The only unpopular decision to date was to seize 0.6% of pension fund assets. Amid lectures about austerity, they have yet to add to Brian Lenihan’s budget pain for 2011. By declining to frontload fiscal rectitude, they have still to determine where the axe will fall on €10bn of adjustments. In November, €2.1bn of expenditure cuts await. Given circa 64% in every euro comprises social welfare, health and education spending, unpopular tough decisions will engender hostility. Severe restrictions on rent allowances, free household schemes, home help packages, pupil-teacher ratios, school entry ages, hospital bed capacity, and medical card eligibility — will provoke sustained resentment. Roscommon’s A&E rationalisation will seem like a tea party.

The public capital programme will be severely curtailed. Transport projects (road and rail) will be shelved. The National Children’s Hospital will have to be deferred. Needs of the construction sector and its former employees will have to wait. Taxation will have to be increased by €1.5bn. The tax base will have to be widened to yield significant household related revenue. Pay packets must be hit by reducing values of tax credits and allowances, even if income tax rates remain unaltered. Stealth charges on private beds in public hospitals, public inspection fees, fares in the CIE group are likely to be ratcheted up. A significant exodus of several thousands of retiring public servants will slow down state bureaucracy, yielding customer dissatisfaction. Get the picture?

While the Government dishes out harsh medicine over three years, their poll ratings will inevitably slide. It would not be unrealistic for FG to slip from 36% to 20% and Labour to revert to 10%. As recession fatigue encounters increased debt servicing costs, the blame game will shift to Kenny and Gilmore. Short-term credit from Euro leaders and international analysts for full debt repayment will turn to medium-term animosity at home. Sinn Féin can increase their base support by 50% to 15%. The middle-income blue and white collar voters are hardly likely to engage in masochism. This cul-de-sac for the left and growing disaffection with government parties creates a huge hole in the electoral market. Who will fill it?

A new party is a valid possibility of opportunity. The fate of ultimate oblivion for the Progressive Democrats and Greens represents a stark warning to potential new entrants. Challenges of recruiting a nationwide membership and obtaining voluntary untainted finance are enormous. . However, the lesson of this presidential campaign may be after 90 years of civil war traditions, a new departure beckons. The American duopoly of Republicans and Democrats, as well as the British dominance of Labour and Conservative may be more secure than our foundation parties. A block of up to 40% of the electorate may seek a new home in 2014. The political orphans were created by the implosion of FF. Then again, the age-old love affair with Fianna Fáil may reignite.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/theres-an-enormous-hole-in-the-electoral-market-who-will-fill-it-171958.html#ixzz1cFrotdur

( he goes on to comment on the referendum but it is a seperate issue)



And this

Fianna Fail defies odds with by-election good news

Meanwhile, the larger government party, Fine Gael, has been left with little to smile about, writes Willie O'Dea




David McGuinness and his supporters at the CityWest hotel. Photo: Damien Eagers



Sunday October 30 2011

If you told me a month or two ago that Fianna Fail would come second in the Dublin West constituency I would have thought you were mad.
In fairness, I would have had some evidence for that belief.
Back at the general election in February, the late Brian Lenihan came fourth behind Labour, Fine Gael and Joe Higgins's Socialists. The party share of 16.6 per cent won by Brian was well above the vote achieved by other party stalwarts across the city.
It was a vote that as much expressed the personal affection and admiration his constituents had for him as a person as it did for him as a Fianna Fail politician.
Even coming fourth in Dublin West in February was a rare good moment in a political tsunami of disappointment and anger that swept over the party.
The opinion polls since have brought precious little comfort either. Most have showed us slipping nationally, with the party's standing in the capital looking particularly bleak.
Yet, as the boxes were opened last Friday it quickly emerged that the young and very determined candidate we selected to carry the flag in Dublin West, councillor David McGuinness, had achieved what very many of us thought was an almost impossible ask.
Only eight months after our worst-ever defeat, he has recorded a five per cent swing to the party and taken us back to second place in this very early test of public opinion.
As I reported here last week, it is not that the public were welcoming Fianna Fail to the doors with open arms, but they were, for the first time since early 2010, prepared to engage with us and hear what we had to say about the problems facing us all.
It would, of course, be giving hostages to fortune to read too much into one by-election campaign, but the demise of Fianna Fail that had been much anticipated by Fine Gael, Labour, and Sinn Fein has most certainly failed to materialise.
In a reversal of fortunes that almost mirrors the one we saw in February, Fianna Fail's small advance on the path to renewal comes as Fine Gael sees its vote slump.
Its candidate in Dublin West saw the vote there fall by over 12 per cent.
Across the country Fine Gael strategists would have given their eye teeth for so minuscule a swing. Though I could sense that the presidential campaign was never going Gay Mitchell's way from the first day, I still thought the polls were understating his support across the country. Clearly, I was wrong.
It does lead me to wonder what has happened to the massive Fine Gael organisation and campaign teams we saw only a few months ago.
Gay was, after all, the democratic choice of the party. He was selected by an electoral college of Oireachtas members, councillors and party executive. Could they have got it so badly wrong?
The Taoiseach's handlers and his loyal ministers can spin as much as they like how Gay was not really Enda or Phil's first choice, yet he was the candidate they selected.
If they knew back then that his candidacy was so doomed to failure, why did they allow it to proceed?
But the problem runs deeper. Heaping all the blame on Gay Mitchell is a way of pretending that the Fine Gael result in the presidential race would have been considerably better with another unspecified candidate.
Gay Mitchell did not let Fine Gael down, the party let him down.
Blaming Gay is part of a despicable process to take the focus off the fact that Fine Gael had a number of disastrous results on one day: in the presidential election, the by-election and the referendums.
The results across all the elections last Thursday raise questions not just about the Fine Gael organisation, but about what it stands for and its view of how to conduct its business.
The ramifications will be felt for some time to come.
Willie O'Dea is the Fianna Fail TD for Limerick City

I would prefer a practical discussion as opposed to anti FF rants.

Personnally I do not feel the party system and 3 line whip is serving us well and whatever back door deals FF may have done the Coallition is doing the same with the public service unions. I think this has hurt FG more than Ivan Yates imagines.

Lemlin

For me, Fine Gael won the election by default. People didn't want to vote for Fianna Fail so they were the default vote chosen by most.

However, as time goes on and Fine Gael have to deliver austerity measure after austerity measure, support will continue to drift away.

They haven't even delivered a budget yet.

RichardAnd

Lemlin wrote: »

For me, Fine Gael won the election by default. People didn't want to vote for Fianna Fail so they were the default vote chosen by most.

However, as time goes on and Fine Gael have to deliver austerity measure after austerity measure, support will continue to drift away.

They haven't even delivered a budget yet.

that would be my take aswell. During the last election, most people I spoke didn't really mind who won the just so long as FF did not get back in. FG won, but that election wasn't really about policy when all is said and done.

In 5 years time, the austerity plan will be seen through and Ireland will be, hopefully, in a better position to look towards the future. However, after years of cuts and taxes, I've little doubt that FG and Labour will be deeply unpopular and the sins of FF will seem less pertinent.

lugha

Thursday was a very good bay for FF. Arguably (in the long run) a better one for them than for Labour. We have been sitting and waiting since Feb for evidence of who will fill the void left by FF, who will the votes lent to FG go to next. And it looks now very much like FF will fill the void left by FF.

We can only hope that if there is to be a new FF it will have shed their unsavory traits of the past.

I am sure someone will be along to talk about "bag man" Gallagher as an indication that they have not changed but the truth is the most grievous charge against him on this front is that he tried to minimize his past association with an unsavory organisation , perhaps even lied, because it was to his advantage electorally (Deja vu anyone?). Perhaps lying is going too far but any other candidates would, and some did, seek to keep the spotlight off issues that would be unhelpful to their electoral prospects.

Shattered Dreamer

Articles likes these make me laugh hard as they show just how out of touch the political fraternity are with the rest of this country. FG won the last general election for a very simple reason which I will phrase as a question. What do the people of a country do when they want a change of government? Vote for the next biggest party in that country which in this case was FG. They're deluding themselves if they think people choose them & Labour because they're best qualified to run the country, which they give the impression they do believe this.

A major problem here in Ireland is peoples vote habits. I would say 80%, & I believe even that is too low, of the voting public here in Ireland vote in line with their parents, grandparents or family in general. What's wrong with that you might ask? Well for argument sake lets say Ms X votes FF because her parents vote FF. Her parents vote FF because their parents voted FF. And Ms X's grandparents vote FF because their parent voted FF what you've basically got here is a vote based on Irish Civil War politics. So what Ms X has is a vote cast in 2011 based on politics from 1922-23.

This is of course COMPLETELY STUPID. FF & FG are just 2 ends of the same sh*tty stick & if people ever want real change in this country they're going to have to vote for somebody else fyi I'm not talking Sinn Fein before you ask. But again here another problem arises, we don't exactly have a great choose. So unless somebody starts a new political party who offer something different to FF or FG/Labour then we only have ourselves to blame when we vote one of the other & whoever gets in puts this country right up sh*t creek. Mind you I have to admit FG/Labour are doing a better job then I expected. But then again with a Michael Martin lead FF as your opposition, you are on to a winner for starters lol

As for FF retaining Brian Lenihan's seat, it really doesn't surprise me! Brian Lenihan was very popular with the people of that constituency so it stands to reason that a FF candidate had a strong chance of winning there not rocket science. But it needs to be said with the death of Brian Lenihan, FF lost the best politician they had & we lost one of the only men I felt in Leinster House fit to run the country.

Wallflower

CDfm wrote: »

I would prefer a practical discussion as opposed to anti FF rants.

As a quid pro quo I'll engage in this discussion (when I have more time), if you on your behalf will focus specifically on the topic we are discussing and not side-issues and deflectionary tactics:)

CDfm

Wallflower wrote: »

As a quid pro quo I'll engage in this discussion (when I have more time), if you on your behalf will focus specifically on the topic we are discussing and not side-issues and deflectionary tactics:)

I think the articles are interesting. Both articles concern elections and are by politicians/former ministers and concern winning elections.

IMO Irish Parlimentary Politics are surreal and I dont mean it in a kind way. Most ordinary people complain about corruption , croneyism, backroom deals -call it what you like. Tents,developers, unions, benchmarking, special interest groups - call it what you like but you cannot call it parlimentary government.

Seeing Enda & Co over the summer WTF. What was the spat with the Pope about. Common sense would tell you it had nothing to do with the key issues at hand. Diplomacy would tell you that Irelands historic church links may have had a value. German Pope- German Euro. I am being rhetorical here.

People voted for change, expected austerity and I do not think most people have a problem with that. But what we are getting is Tents,developers, unions, benchmarking, special interest groups - call it what you like but you cannot call it parlimentary government. No public service reform but propsed taxes on cheap wine by Roisin Shortall. Has James O'Reilly managed to stamp authority on the health service. He was an insider.

I am perplexed. Not in a political party politician "there’ll be serious head scratching amongst political insiders" way as per Ivan Yates or a Woohoo "If you told me a month or two ago that Fianna Fail would come second in the Dublin West constituency I would have thought you were mad." perplexed like Willie O'Dea.

We are facing another 4 years of government by the coallition and they seem to think this carry on is normal.

And, its not just me who is thinking like that. We were the people who voted Fianna Fail out and what have we got in return.

doomed

I think people are reading way too much into these results.

By-elections are abnormal. Government parties almost never win them and the electorate puts manners on whoever is in power. FF won consecutive general elections in spite of losing all by-elections in between.


FG
In the presidential election FG ran almost the worst candidate for that office they could have found. The people simply did not want that man in the Park and his behaviour entirely justified their choice. In Dublin West I gather from people who live there that the FG candidate was not up to much.

FF
Encouragement for the soldiers of destiny. Proxy (no, the r is not silent) general election candidate did well. However when it became clear how close he was to the centre of FF, things started to slide. Sounds like the electorate will forgive you for trying FF but not for inhaling. In Dublin West they did really well and new "clean hands" candidates will have a chance. However in a general election and led by a relic of disaster they might find it harder going. It should also be remembered that in the by election McGuinness was not up against big names like Varadkar, Burton and Higgins.

LAB
Don't think they can claim too much from Michael D victory. Most people voted for the man (by far the best candidate) not the party. He has always been a bit of a maverick, but has the integrity, intellect and interest in the arts that make him a good choice. He's a soccer fan as well. Dublin West was a seriously good result though.

SF
Will be a little bit disappointed by 13.7% from their most charismatic candidate. Expected 15-18%. However 2nd and subsequent preferences are just as important. If people can put something in the SF box now they might do so again. Bad result in Dublin West given austerity.

CDfm

doomed wrote: »

I think people are reading way too much into these results.

.

It is the ultimate opinion poll.

And, people might well think that FG are now a spent force politically.

Any newly elected FG TD will be baying for blood.



Remember Mary Mitchell O'Connors first day.

The Dail can be a very much last in first out place.

deanh

So FF lost their only remaining seat in Dublin. Sean Gallagher's vote collapsed when the extent of his links to FF were revealed. Does this marks the rehabilitation of Fianna Fail? Hardly, but I suppose Mehole has to take comfort from something.

anymore

CDfm wrote: »

Here are two articles. The first from Ivan Yates former FG TD and Minister and the second by Willie O'Dea


( he goes on to comment on the referendum but it is a seperate issue)



And this




I would prefer a practical discussion as opposed to anti FF rants.

Personnally I do not feel the party system and 3 line whip is serving us well and whatever back door deals FF may have done the Coallition is doing the same with the public service unions. I think this has hurt FG more than Ivan Yates imagines.

Sitting TDs Minister Michael Martin and Michael Mcgrath both held on to their seats in Cork South Central, so why is it so significant that FF came second in a by election to replace a their own deceased sitting TD ? How is that success ?

CDfm

deanh wrote: »

So FF lost their only remaining seat in Dublin. Sean Gallagher's vote collapsed when the extent of his links to FF were revealed. Does this marks the rehabilitation of Fianna Fail? Hardly, but I suppose Mehole has to take comfort from something.

It is a Roisin Shortall Joan Burton the hair had me fooled stronghold and you would have expected a Labour turnout and I would not have expected FF to hold the seat.

Labour had 26 % first prefs and FF 22 %

FG did woefully and it was not a mid term election either.

And this was the first preferences count in the Presidency


Michael D Higgins: 701,101
Sean Gallagher: 504,964
Martin McGuinness: 243,030
Gay Mitchell: 113,321
David Norris: 109,469
Dana: 51,220
Mary Davis: 48,657


There was a turnout of 56 %.

By your logic that Gallagher is FF their first prefs were a third of the electorate.

I would have thought if a General Election was called FG would not be confident of leading any coalition.

anymore

CDfm wrote: »

It is a Roisin Shortall stronghold and you would have expected a Labour turnout and I would not have expected FF to hold the seat.

Labour had 26 % first prefs and FF 22 %

FG did woefully and it was not a mid term election either.

And this was the first preferences count in the Presidency


Michael D Higgins: 701,101
Sean Gallagher: 504,964
Martin McGuinness: 243,030
Gay Mitchell: 113,321
David Norris: 109,469
Dana: 51,220
Mary Davis: 48,657


There was a turnout of 56 %.

By your logic that Gallagher is FF their first prefs were a third of the electorate.

I would have thought if a General Election was called FG would not be confident of leading any coalition.

Maybe they could lead a FG/FF one !

CDfm

anymore wrote: »

Maybe they could lead a FG/FF one !

:D:D

CDfm

anymore wrote: »

Sitting TDs Minister Michael Martin and Michael Mcgrath both held on to their seats in Cork South Central, so why is it so significant that FF came second in a by election to replace a their own deceased sitting TD ? How is that success ?

Because it is PR and Joan Burton topped the poll there in the GE. You are talking a major swing.

It would work how you say in first past the post direct vote.

Now the boundaries changed and Joan Burton vs Lenehan was elected first on 22%. He was a tad over 15% first prefs.Leo Vradakar was 2nd on 19%.

So it was a 7% increase / circa 50% for FF.

http://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2011&cons=112

All the ducks were in a row for Nulty.

But wait a sec , the situation economically is sort of the same yet FG got punished.

Why .

I will hazard a guess that it is not because of the ecomomic situation but that the pain is not shared equally.

The public service (Labours Constituency) are virtually unscathed and the private sector (FG's Constituency) have taken a hammering.

Thats how it looks to me, that FG have let their voters down.

Despite a lot of talk its economic policies do not get debated in the Dail and IMHO it is not bringing democracy back to the table but doing business behind closed doors.

This is the crux - these behind closed doors deals are FF territory and openess is FG/Labour.

thebman

I think both parties are struggling to come to terms with their core support in decline as younger people are generally less aligned to specific political parties and the younger people have woken up to the importance of politics because of the financial crisis.

Liam Byrne

Willie O'Dea ? Seriously ?

That idiot gets perplexed when people object to his lies and slander.

If he said it was raining I'd put on suncream.

CDfm

thebman wrote: »

I think both parties are struggling to come to terms with their core support in decline as younger people are generally less aligned to specific political parties and the younger people have woken up to the importance of politics because of the financial crisis.

But they are the only electoral option.

When I see political theorymen tell me labour are socialist and trade unions representing the public service workers are not representing the better off I go :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Willie O'Dea ? Seriously ?

That idiot gets perplexed when people object to his lies and slander.

If he said it was raining I'd put on suncream.

Why dont you suspend that belief for a while.

I posted the article because it makes sense and I think the both want the same model to continue. If O'Dea is a serious politician and a practicing solictor who knows how to win elections behind the bufoonery and theatrics could be a very serious guy.

Our current government is actually resisting change and saying that the Troika tells them not to.

Liam Byrne

Why dont you suspend that belief for a while.

I posted the article because it makes sense and I think the both want the same model to continue. If O'Dea is a serious politician and a practicing solictor who knows how to win elections behind the bufoonery and theatrics could be a very serious guy.

Where did I mention "theatrics and buffoonery" ?

I was on about him being a lying, slanderous, dangerous weasel, so I'm well aware that his "man of the people" is as much of a con as Gallagher, if not even more so.

dabestman1

CDfm wrote: »

But they are the only electoral option.

When I see political theorymen tell me labour are socialist and trade unions representing the public service workers are not representing the better off I go :rolleyes:



Why dont you suspend that belief for a while.

I posted the article because it makes sense and I think the both want the same model to continue. If O'Dea is a serious politician and a practicing solictor who knows how to win elections behind the bufoonery and theatrics could be a very serious guy.

Our current government is actually resisting change and saying that the Troika tells them not to.

You are aware that he nearly did jail for contempt of court and only didn't because the SF councillor in question agreed to a private settlement.Another FFer who is well equipped in the art of dirty tricks.

CDfm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Where did I mention "theatrics and buffoonery" ?

I was on about him being a lying, slanderous, dangerous weasel, so I'm well aware that his "man of the people" is as much of a con as Gallagher, if not even more so.

You didn't I described him.

dabestman1 wrote: »

You are aware that he nearly did jail for contempt of court and only didn't because the SF councillor in question agreed to a private settlement.Another FFer who is well equipped in the art of dirty tricks.

Yes , though he is quite small , the case had him instigating a fight.

So with all this , his party is becoming electable.

Why ?

jimmycrackcorm

deanh wrote: »

So FF lost their only remaining seat in Dublin. Sean Gallagher's vote collapsed when the extent of his links to FF were revealed. Does this marks the rehabilitation of Fianna Fail? Hardly, but I suppose Mehole has to take comfort from something.

The FF candidate in the Dublin west and the perceived FF presidential candidate both secured second place. I'd say michaleen is smiling slightly somewhat.

CDfm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The FF candidate in the Dublin west and the perceived FF presidential candidate both secured second place. I'd say michaleen is smiling slightly somewhat.

Am I missing something when I see articles like this.

Kenny launches battle to win back the people

NIGHTMARE: Stormy meeting ahead for Taoiseach over Aras disaster








By Cormac Murphy

Monday October 31 2011

IT'S going to be a particularly horrific Halloween night for Taoiseach Enda Kenny as he bids to win back the people.
Fine Gael TDs and senators are shaping up for a stormy parliamentary party meeting following the party's disastrous presidential campaign.
Gay Mitchell only got 6.4pc of the vote in last Thursday's ballot as the party slumped to its worst ever performance in an Aras election.
Mr Mitchell ended up with only half the first preferences of Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness and was never a serious contender in the race.
Hierarchy
Now, the party will attempt to move on from the debacle at its next parliamentary gathering, which could be as early as Wednesday.
Attention is to focus on the choice of Mr Mitchell as the Fine Gael candidate when the party hierarchy was believed to favour Pat Cox or Mairead McGuinness.
Mr Mitchell did not attend the announcement of the result of the final count, leaving it to Enda Kenny to take to the stage.
The candidate claimed that, having congratulated Mr Higgins on Friday, he was told by his team that there was no need to turn up again in Dublin Castle for the conclusion the following day.
However, his no-show was embarrassing for the party.
Mr Kenny told the gathering: "I should say, it wasn't to be Gay Mitchell's campaign, but on his behalf, and on behalf of his wife, Norma, I would thank all of the people who worked on his campaign over the last many weeks. Gay is the leader of our group at European level -- he will continue to be so.
"He's a good man, has always worked for the principles that he believes in politics."
But behind the scenes efforts are under way to repair the damage caused by the disastrous performance.
Independent candidate Mary Davis, who polled lowest of all seven candidates, said she had made a mistake by not turning up and felt badly about it subsequently.
"I was genuinely unaware of the protocol or my duty to be there. I thought Saturday was the stage for Michael D, Sabina and their family. I didn't realise others would be there," Ms Davis said.
Reports today revealed that, during the campaign, Mr Mitchell did not want to be seen with Mr Kenny at the Ploughing Championships so as not to alienate Fianna Fail voters.
Meanwhile, Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howling is involved in dispute with the Referendum Commission after he criticised its chairman.
Investigative
The Commission has insisted its chairman, former High Court Judge Bryan McMahon, was right in comments he made about the referendum to give more investigative powers to Oireachtas committees.
The referendum was defeated by 53.3pc to 46.7pc.
Mr McMahon had said it was not possible to state definitively what role "if any" the courts would have in reviewing the procedures adopted by Oireachtas inquiries.
But Mr Howlin blamed Judge McMahon for spreading "confusion" among voters.

Is this really what they intend to do.?

jmayo

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

...

But it needs to be said with the death of Brian Lenihan, FF lost the best politician they had & we lost one of the only men I felt in Leinster House fit to run the country.

Your post made some sense until this point, but lamenting the guy that tied us to the sinking titantic that were the banks as the man most fit to run the country is a joke.
lenihan stumbled along fromone disaster to the next and was totally out of his fooking depth and whilst he learnt on the job he sold us into penury.

As for OP, I believe you are once again cheerleading, in a very round about fashion it must be said, for ff and hell you even got some of the old diehards to appear to thank some of the posts.

Most informed sources always reckoned ff will make some sort of recovery and it isn't because FG or Lab are poor.

It is because some people will still vote for them just like some people would still have voted for the nazis in Germany in 1945.
These are the diehards.
It is so ingrained in these people that he could not but vote for ff.

With others they still see them as the party best able to "swing" things for them as ff still have the dodgy shysters linked to them as was all too visible during the election campaign.

It has been a bad week for FG, but the die was cast way back when the party chose a muppet to run for president.
And unlike some I don't lay the blame for that with Kenny.
I believe the party wanted to send a message to Kenny and some others at the top, that even though they had beaten them in 2010, they still had teeth and power.
mitchell comes across as the spanner a lot of people thought he was and the fact that Kenny was so generous to him when he had to try and cover for him says more about Kenny than mitchell.
mitchell will see out this term in Europe and that will be it.

Corsendonk

I think people are reading more into this than it is. The fact is that FG for a variety of reasons selected in Mitchell and Loftus two of the worst candidates in many a year so only the most loyal of FG voters were going to vote for them. Even the FG fan club on boards was embarrassed by Mitchell and Loftus.:)

Zubeneschamali

Corsendonk wrote: »

I think people are reading more into this than it is.

I agree. Enda's position is actually strengthened inside FG, as he knew Mitchell couldn't win it, and told theeveryone that before they selected him. Recall that it's not that long ago that Enda faced a leadership challenge, and selecting Mitchell was a challenge of a different sort.

Which failed miserably, leaving Enda laughing.

walrusgumble

deanh wrote: »

So FF lost their only remaining seat in Dublin. Sean Gallagher's vote collapsed when the extent of his links to FF were revealed. Does this marks the rehabilitation of Fianna Fail? Hardly, but I suppose Mehole has to take comfort from something.

If he came out and admitted everything and acted like one of the ordinary deacent FF foot soldiers and spouting how grass roots' trust had been abused (with a few tears) he might have scrapped it.

Its the denials that hurt him.]


On the other hand, people are reading way too much into this.

CDfm

walrusgumble wrote: »

If he came out and admitted everything and acted like one of the ordinary deacent FF foot soldiers and spouting how grass roots' trust had been abused (with a few tears) he might have scrapped it.

Its the denials that hurt him.]


On the other hand, people are reading way too much into this.

it wasn't getting it scrapped in that mattered IMHO even if it had scrapped in by 0.1 % he/they has failed to gain half of the peoples trust

it looked like he/they wanted either showtrials (for the want of a better word) or to bring people in for a televised head down the toilet and flush event .

as it stands prople either trust you or they dont 0 or 100% and there is no middle ground.

the comments just made things a lot worse

walrusgumble

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Willie O'Dea ? Seriously ?

That idiot gets perplexed when people object to his lies and slander.

If he said it was raining I'd put on suncream.

I thought he was a bit of a hero in Limerick. He still commands good support there, doesn't he?

Ah remember the offer of cheese last year. Don't know whether to laugh or cry

walrusgumble

CDfm wrote: »

it wasn't getting it scrapped in that mattered IMHO even if it had scrapped in by 0.1 % he/they has failed to gain half of the peoples trust

it looked like he/they wanted either showtrials (for the want of a better word) or to bring people in for a televised head down the toilet and flush event .

as it stands prople either trust you or they dont 0 or 100% and there is no middle ground.

the comments just made things a lot worse

Are you talking about Gallagher or the referendum? Just my quote comments on Gallagher. Just you refer to "it" and "show trials"

CDfm

walrusgumble wrote: »

Are you talking about Gallagher or the referendum? Just my quote comments on Gallagher. Just you refer to "it" and "show trials"

The referendum and the trust thing. It is a very good way of putting it. The issue for Kenny & Howlin is that they have not built this trust thing.

And if you leave ff out of it , the result shows that.

Its just a feeling I have and I may be wrong .

The idea has been floating in my mind too that the amount of times Kenny talks about cleaning up after ff means he is not answering a parlimentary question and that is wrong.

People notice these things and might be assessing how fg themselves behaved in opposition. I am.

blahfckingblah

CDfm wrote: »

The referendum and the trust thing. It is a very good way of putting it. The issue for Kenny & Howlin is that they have not built this trust thing.

And if you leave ff out of it , the result shows that.

Its just a feeling I have and I may be wrong .

The idea has been floating in my mind too that the amount of times Kenny talks about cleaning up after ff means he is not answering a parlimentary question and that is wrong.

People notice these things and might be assessing how fg themselves behaved in opposition. I am.

I might be biased but i think the opposition now is stronger and more diverse than any FG led opposition in recent times.
Fine Gael have lost the trust of many since they have gotten into power particularly because of roscommon A+E. The budget just may be disasterous for them and thats not to mention the 1billion payout tomorrow. I know they are all as much the fault of Labour but for some reason labour seem to be able to avoid the blame

michael999999

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I might be biased but i think the opposition now is stronger and more diverse than any FG led opposition in recent times.
Fine Gael have lost the trust of many since they have gotten into power particularly because of roscommon A+E. The budget just may be disasterous for them and thats not to mention the 1billion payout tomorrow. I know they are all as much the fault of Labour but for some reason labour seem to be able to avoid the blame

Which Fianna Fail/builder/bankers golden circle of corruption are 100% responsible for!

blahfckingblah

I know enda kenny wont stop reminding us

Liam Byrne

walrusgumble wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Willie O'Dea ? Seriously ?

That idiot gets perplexed when people object to his lies and slander.

If he said it was raining I'd put on suncream.

I thought he was a bit of a hero in Limerick. He still commands good support there, doesn't he?

Some people have no standards - Ahern is still popular in Dublin & Lowry in Tipp, so hopefully it won't reflect badly on the rest of us.

CDfm

michael999999 wrote: »

Which Fianna Fail/builder/bankers golden circle of corruption are 100% responsible for!

I know you do not want to hear this but the Central Bank is Independent of the Government/Minister of Finance.

So when I see Enda Kenny sloppily answering questions in the dail like this I think gawd - i really want to someone who was regulating monitoring the central bank to get questioned and/or investigated.

unless TD's and ministers start asking and answering questions properly we are shafted

They ff werent 100 % responsible because of the central banks board was independent and there were civil servants operating - so within that context what level of control did the previous minister have.

I am thinking that the minister of finance relies totally on his civil servants.

Bizarre I know but the Department provide the government with expertise and policy options not the other way round.

michael999999

CDfm wrote: »

I know you do not want to hear this but the Central Bank is Independent of the Government/Minister of Finance.

So when I see Enda Kenny sloppily answering questions in the dail like this I think gawd - i really want to someone who was regulating monitoring the central bank to get questioned and/or investigated.

unless TD's and ministers start asking and answering questions properly we are shafted

They ff werent 100 % responsible because of the central banks board was independent and there were civil servants operating - so within that context what level of control did the previous minister have.

I am thinking that the minister of finance relies totally on his civil servants.

Bizarre I know but the Department provide the government with expertise and policy options not the other way round.

You might not want to hear this!

Fianna Fails Minister for finance Brian Lenihan signed all the bank guarantees!

CDfm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Some people have no standards - Ahern is still popular in Dublin & Lowry in Tipp, so hopefully it won't reflect badly on the rest of us.

Well I dont know if ahern is popular

has there been wrong doing been found against lowry

CDfm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I know enda kenny wont stop reminding us

michael999999 wrote: »

You might not want to hear this!

Fianna Fails Minister for finance Brian Lenihan signed all the bank guarantees!

I am not or never have been in FF and I know ministers sign stuff.

Its the bits before all the signing happened that i would like to know

if a truck driver gets drunk and kills people he gets some of the blame as well as the haulier

the haulier has a duty of care but ....................

so has the driver

blahfckingblah

sorry my point was more that blaming fianna fail has become enda kennys stock answer. He has the power now, his party promised the sun moon and stars, I knew he was a bull****ter thats one of the reasons they didnt get my vote.

CDfm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

sorry my point was more that blaming fianna fail has become enda kennys stock answer. He has the power now, his party promised the sun moon and stars, I knew he was a bull****ter thats one of the reasons they didnt get my vote.

We all know FF ****ed up and do not need to be told it.

A clever campaigner and his refusal to TV debate was intelligient .

People are more interested now in the operation of the oireachtas , I am, and his lack of performance there in answering questions has no doubt hurt him.

He also has been happy to continue FF policies in most areas , including areas where change is overdue.

So the economy is ****ed but he has not stamped his authority on non economic areas. Justice and family law has Shatter. Nuff said.

A key area is taking on the civil service on pay & service delivery and the coalition means he cannot do this.

That IMHO has politically castrated him and robbed FG with its raison d'etre in people's eyes. Public service reform is off limits.

When the deal was struck with the residential institutions victims at 2 billion the civil service got off scott free -whereas he should have been baying for blood and instituting change now.

So " anything other than FF" is not working for FG .

I do not know what the programme for government is but I know it is repeated lots and lots.

jmayo

CDfm wrote: »

I know you do not want to hear this but the Central Bank is Independent of the Government/Minister of Finance.

You have been stating this on here and on another thread, but the chiefs in the CB/IFSRA are government appointees and AFAIK they are answerable in some fashion to the Dept of Finance.
The CB and IFSRA did not exist in some vacuum.

Oh btw in 2006 a government appointed panel that was made up of banking and insurance representatives revealed widespread dissatisfaction with the Central Bank’s skills base.

Was anything done about this in 2006/2007/2008 before it was found out just how bad the CB and it's b*stard offspring IFSRA were ?

In summer 2007, the Comptroller and Auditor General called for an independent review of the inspection process for financial institutions carried out by the Central Bank ?

Did the government and Dept of finance act on this ?

CDfm wrote: »

So when I see Enda Kenny sloppily answering questions in the dail like this I think gawd - i really want to someone who was regulating monitoring the central bank to get questioned and/or investigated.

unless TD's and ministers start asking and answering questions properly we are shafted

Agree I do want to see the likes of biffo in a dock answering why he was having dinners with board of Anglo and golfing with the chairman in the lead up to the demise of the bank and yet he never asked them what was going on ?
Also want to see neary, hurley, etc sitting in a dock.

CDfm wrote: »

They ff werent 100 % responsible because of the central banks board was independent and there were civil servants operating - so within that context what level of control did the previous minister have.

Ahh now you really are sounding like a ffer trying to shift the blame :rolleyes:
Whatever happened to Harry S Truman's motto ?

CDfm wrote: »

I am thinking that the minister of finance relies totally on his civil servants.

Bizarre I know but the Department provide the government with expertise and policy options not the other way round.

Government do rely on departments for information and detail.
But they are also supposed to have amongst their myriad of advisors, advisors on policy areas.
That is the way it is supposed to work, but as has been found out this week once again the heads in the Dept of finance couldn't organise a budget for p*ss up in a brewery. :rolleyes:

CDfm wrote: »

Well I dont know if ahern is popular

has there been wrong doing been found against lowry

Ahhh lowry has already been found to have been a tax evader has he not ?

CDfm

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh now you really are sounding like a ffer trying to shift the blame :rolleyes:
Whatever happened to Harry S Truman's motto ?

No I am not.

If you have the Head of the ICTU sitting on the Central Bank Board and negotiating as a Social Partner etc with a civil service head etc who recommends a course of action to a Government Minister -what do you call it.

Do you call it impatial.

Take David Beggs and the Cardiff bloke who lost the 3.6 billion as being players.

Nail it down to decision makers and do not be too quick to judge this as a pro FF point.

HTF do you run up 100 billion plus in debt . ????