Most popular Irishman in Oz - Qantas fleet now grounded

Zambia

Well as much as I agree with the stance on the unions I would have to say it looks a little much to make that speech on the back of a 5 million payrise.

QANTAS chief Alan Joyce has grounded all Qantas flights immediately and blames ongoing union action for his decision.

In an announcement beamed live across Australia Mr Joyce said unions were "deliberately destabilising our company" and that the airline could not afford the ongoing actions.

Mr Joyce said all Qantas staff involved in strike action would be locked out of the company as of 8pm on Sunday.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/qantas-strikes-to-hit-10000-passengers-today/story-fn7x8me2-1226180030416

Martin Walker

Just seen on Aussie TV that Quantas have grounded all International and Domestic flights. Never seen whole report but heard that it was because of the ongoing industrial action by Unions.
Bet they didnt expect that!

WalterMitty

Heard their CEO on radio, big Dublin accent on him!

Zambia

I had a good laugh at the news everyone asked for comment is shocked. They ask 4 lads one in a IRFU Jersey what they think of the Quantas Grounding?

The response

"Their Wha????"

Vorsprung

Was due to fly down to Sydney on Monday. Impeccable timing!

I was watching the news there and some of the unions demands seem ridiculous. Good in a way to see the company play hardball with them despite the timing of it all!

WalterMitty

A friend working in australia told me pilots get massive money down there compared to Uk,USA. Lot of wages down in Australia seem very high internationally and bound to correct in medium term if not in nominal dollar terms then in real terms through an aussie dollar devaluation.

Jumpy

Its an abbreviation.

Queensland
And
Northern
Territory
Aerial
Service.

Theres no U after the Q like normal English words.

jank

This is what you get when a Union tries to run a business. **** the unions!

PhiliousPhogg

The unions have their role & the company needs to get a return for shareholders so I maintain I'm neutral - But this has to be seriously damaging to the brand, Melbourne Cup on Tuesday and passengers already onboard aircraft being told to get off, that's madness. What about all those ads on TV with kids singing in choirs in the Kimberleys & billabongs, so much for service. If Ryanair or Tiger had grounded it's fleet with no warning you might say fair enough those sort of shennanigans happen with ultra low cost companies but Qantas last time I checked was a quality service oriented brand. Just can't imagine Air New Zealand doing this or any other high end Airline for that matter.

Just spent 15-20 minutes trying to see what the dispute is exactly about but the coverage is pretty sh1t to be honest. It's all quotes of both sides' rhetoric.

From SMH

In August, Joyce announced a major restructuring that included establishing two new subsidiary carriers in Asia, using cheaper labour, and 1000 job losses to save the airline's loss-making international arm. The unions are insisting on reciprocal conditions for employees of any Qantas subsidiary businesses overseas, a demand that Joyce claims will kill the airline.

Seems Qantas want to move 1,000 headcount offshore and Unions are disputing conditions for those roles - which I don't get if the jobs are overseas the Aussie unions should have no bearing on conditions of workers in foreign countries.

Also just wondering if the Airlines are affected by carbon emissions scheme that came in a few weeks ago, anyone know?

jank

Have you flown Air New Zealand and Qantas? I have, many many times and the customer service on offer from Air New Zealand is 10 times that than from Qantas. Qantas staff dont give a ****, I put that down the their gilded positions in one of Australias leading brand. They know they are pretty much untouchable.

They are losing money like no tomorrow. It would be great if they went bust and then everyone would be out of their job eh? Unions only care about themselves

PhiliousPhogg

Yeah I have flown with both and from my experience I would put Air NZ ahead, and I reckon most people would agree. I waited just over an hour in a queue for a Qantas connecting flight once (& I turned up in good time) because they only had 2 desks open & I missed any chance of getting lunch, and I was damn hungry at the time.

If customer service is bad that's down to training, staff morale & company culture. It's up to management to get that right. If the staff have a superiority complex then it should be recognised & sorted out. Customer feedback, mistery shoppers, all that stuff can be used & they can figure out how to motivate & get staff to actually enjoy their jobs & enjoy giving good service, and get a structure to reward those who make a difference and fire the useless f*ckers who don't pull their weight.

I guess my point is that from what I can see in the media I don't really know which side is being reasonable & unreasonable in this dispute but I feel the unions will always drive a hard bargain & it's up to the company to overcome that. Joyce may have been driven to an extreme but he's picked a bad time with the Melb Cup and it doesn't look like he'll have the public on his side now which is important given it's still the national airline.

Xavi6

Virgin Australia or Air Asia ftw

jackbhoy

PhiliousPhogg wrote: »

Seems Qantas want to move 1,000 headcount offshore and Unions are disputing conditions for those roles - which I don't get if the jobs are overseas the Aussie unions should have no bearing on conditions of workers in foreign countries.

The new subsidiaries will hire Asian staff on contracts on much less pay and entitlements. The unions say Qantas will then start using these staff on international flights and eventually replace existing routes with their subsidiary, a backdoor way to cut costs/staff. If they get equal pay to Aus staff it will negate any chance of Qantas doing this. I am not saying this is true but it's my understanding of unions claim. Not the only thing p1ssing them off anyway.

Personally I'd take claims from both sides with pinch of salt, particularly in a really bitter, emotive dispute like this. I think it's similar to recent rows at other oldschool, unionised airlines like BA and Aer Lingus though. For years staff were overpaid, underworked and guaranteed a job for life, now these airlines are competing against rivals with a fraction of their operating costs but staff want to maintain all their old perks. If Qantas gave unions everything they demanded they'd be out of business pretty quickly...

PhiliousPhogg

OK just had another look for info. Must say I sympathise with Joyce here.

The trouble with this dispute is not that it is about money. It is about Qantas management's right to make corporate policy decisions on the company's strategy. Engineers want guarantees new planes will be maintained in Australia.
Pilots want the same pay for budget Jetstar crew as mainline Qantas flyers get. It would destroy the economics of the entire group. This is a global industry which on average has profit margins of less than 1 per cent.
Unions may be concerned about Joyce's plans to launch a new airline in Singapore and a budget operation in Japan but the reality is Qantas has to be where the action is. Asia is now the world's largest airline market and Qantas must be a part of it. And ultimately, a successful Qantas means more jobs for Australians.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/move-was-joyces-only-real-option-20111029-1mpui.html

Zambia

The way I see it the unions were killing the company slowly anyway. Qantas was off my fly list as they had reduced capacity due to this union issue.

The reality is lost on the union that the business was being bled to death due to the action and if their action succeeds the company could not compete on price for long.

However could they not have said we will ground the airline in 4 days to give people a chance to make other arrangements.

hussey

Alan Joyce sure has a massive pair to do this, he is taking all the flak rather than the corporation.

After seeing some of the ridiculous demands of Irish unions and getting their way all the time through strike action, I'm glad someone is standing up to them, it's a pity it is affecting so many people though.

The bottom line is Qantas will go bust if action isn't taken.

s.c

hussey wrote: »

Alan Joyce sure has a massive pair to do this, he is taking all the flak rather than the corporation.

After seeing some of the ridiculous demands of Irish unions and getting their way all the time through strike action, I'm glad someone is standing up to them, it's a pity it is affecting so many people though.

The bottom line is Qantas will go bust if action isn't taken.

Sure enough there us a large "Irish" community here in oz but surely you can't be telling me that the irish are holding the biggest australian airlane hostage over a few pay rises. If so, fair play and at this rate all our problems at home will be solved very soon...

jank

PhiliousPhogg wrote: »

Yeah I have flown with both and from my experience I would put Air NZ ahead, and I reckon most people would agree. I waited just over an hour in a queue for a Qantas connecting flight once (& I turned up in good time) because they only had 2 desks open & I missed any chance of getting lunch, and I was damn hungry at the time.

If customer service is bad that's down to training, staff morale & company culture. It's up to management to get that right. If the staff have a superiority complex then it should be recognised & sorted out. Customer feedback, mistery shoppers, all that stuff can be used & they can figure out how to motivate & get staff to actually enjoy their jobs & enjoy giving good service, and get a structure to reward those who make a difference and fire the useless f*ckers who don't pull their weight.

I guess my point is that from what I can see in the media I don't really know which side is being reasonable & unreasonable in this dispute but I feel the unions will always drive a hard bargain & it's up to the company to overcome that. Joyce may have been driven to an extreme but he's picked a bad time with the Melb Cup and it doesn't look like he'll have the public on his side now which is important given it's still the national airline.

This is the type of work force you get when they are heavily unionised. There is zero incentive for them to put on a smile or be nice as their unions will get them their few % pay rise anyway.

I think Qantas aside this is a wake up call for Australia, wages in reality are waaaaay too high and they are only high to sustain high property prices. Great short term but over the long term airlines like Emirates and Singapore Airlines can offer better services, cheaper flights and make a profit too. All down to costs which are too high in Australia. Australia thinks it can get away from being part of the globalization of the world but it cant in the long run.

Stinicker

jank wrote: »

This is the type of work force you get when they are heavily unionised. There is zero incentive for them to put on a smile or be nice as their unions will get them their few % pay rise anyway.

I think Qantas aside this is a wake up call for Australia, wages in reality are waaaaay too high and they are only high to sustain high property prices. Great short term but over the long term airlines like Emirates and Singapore Airlines can offer better services, cheaper flights and make a profit too. All down to costs which are too high in Australia. Australia thinks it can get away from being part of the globalization of the world but it cant in the long run.

Qantas beats Singapore every single day, Singapore air are always €100-200 more expensive on the Kangaroo route at at least €400 more expensive than Emirates, I believe they offer great service but why pay the same to Singapore when you could get an upgrade for the same price with a different airline.

I found Qantas to be very good with real Aussie staff, Ok I only took six flights with them but found their staff and service excellent compared to BA, I believe the Unions should concede a little but not allow their Aussie staff be replaced by yellow pack workers from Asia as we have seen happening over here in all walks of life. If corporate greed wins out then it is the opening of the flood gates which will ultimately destroy Australia one of the last places left for proper wages and working conditions.

hussey

s.c wrote: »

Sure enough there us a large "Irish" community here in oz but surely you can't be telling me that the irish are holding the biggest australian airlane hostage over a few pay rises. If so, fair play and at this rate all our problems at home will be solved very soon...

No, not at all (??)
I was trying to say Alan Joyce is standing up to the unions.
While in Ireland nobody does. Nothing to do with any Irish community.

d.pop

jank wrote: »

This is the type of work force you get when they are heavily unionised. There is zero incentive for them to put on a smile or be nice as their unions will get them their few % pay rise anyway.

I think Qantas aside this is a wake up call for Australia, wages in reality are waaaaay too high and they are only high to sustain high property prices. Great short term but over the long term airlines like Emirates and Singapore Airlines can offer better services, cheaper flights and make a profit too. All down to costs which are too high in Australia. Australia thinks it can get away from being part of the globalization of the world but it cant in the long run.

While happy to enjoy high wages..:)..i must agree with you Jank. I like Australia, this is my home now but i do worry at times about where it will all end. Asia is to Oz what Eastern Europe is to Ireland, there is nothing anyboby can do in my opinion as eventually profit will see jobs relocate to countries with cheaper operating costs and thus potential for increased profit. Coupled with this move to offshore jobs is the fact that oz has never really had it tough, sure they have had a few lean years in the past but it has always been the "lucky country" and there are generations of aussies who have never known anything but the best of everything. It most be scary to see it all slipping away and given the average aussie blue collar workers fear of the asian hordes it must be really worrying.
I don't care for unions, i've seen unions campaign for higher wages in ireland as recently as 3 years ago when electricans were standing outside building sites all over the country and every second construction worker was losing his job.
I think fair play to Alan Joyce and Qantas for making a stand, they are a private for profit organisation and owe nothing to the unions, sure it would be nice to keep all the jobs in Oz but the world is changing and all we can hope is we come out the other end in one piece.

The Sweeper

Hmmm.

In terms of what it's all about:

Qantas posted a $249 million profit this year. However, the board maintain that the international flight leg is loss-making, and they put forward a plan to move a chunk of the airline offshore to Asia, axing 1,000 Australian jobs.

The sort of thing they'd offshore would be aircraft servicing, possibly food preparation, so on - while keeping the administration elements of the company in Australia. The unions responded to the announcement angrily, believing there's no reason for an Australian owned business and the airline that's internationally recognised as the flagship carrier of the nation to axe 1,000 jobs and move services offshore while it's still making a $249,000,000 profit.

In addition to the profit, Alan Joyce, CEO, took a rather considerable pay rise, most probably tabled by the board and voted by shareholders at the AGM due to the profit.

The unions called strike action across a number of services seeking pay rises of various percentages, from 2.5% to 5% (rises that are ostensibly in line with inflation, regardless of the proportionate pay within the industry), plus guaranteed job security for staff (e.g. asking the airline to quosh its plans to move 1,000 jobs offshore.)

Standard union action followed - strike here, strike there, four hours off here, delays there. The impact on customers was palpable but minimally irritating.

Then what appears to have happened is Joyce looked at the figures - the international operating loss, the cost to the company of weekly strike action - and channelled his inner Margaret Thatcher, and in an unprecedented gamble, grounded the fleet and blamed it on the unions.

The backlash has been enormous - he could have issued a few days warning, but didn't. He just grounded the fleet. He has inconvenienced literally tens of thousands of customers, and the impact on staff morale will be enormous. I can't imagine, if I worked in one of the Qantas call centres for instance, that I wouldn't have simply quit rather than field the stressful phonecalls bound to follow - and remember this is against months of phonecalls from delayed and disgruntled passengers inconvenienced due to strike action.

The government has its eye firmly on the airline after receiving what was apparently a few hours notice of Joyce's decision to ground flights, and Fair Work Australia, who are the national workplace relations tribunal, convened to decide whether Joyce's action, in grounding the entire fleet, was legal. The Fair Work Australia hearing is ongoing. Their job is really to decide whether or not the board have to listen to its workers, and if so, within what parameters.

Within Australia, this all happens against a number of backdrops. The first is Australia's xenophobia regarding its people and threats to its workforce, how some of its citizens feel they have to prop up foreigners, and generally against a recent history of a number of large Australian companies making their staff redundant and relocating their operation to Asia. Car manufacturers and clothing companies would be two obvious examples. Australians heavily promote buying Australian and things like the closure of Bonds and relocation of its manufacturing arm to Asia has been interesting - major media furore, much protest, company closes anyway, product boycotted in the shops for about six months, then at a lesser level for a further six months, a little longer to let the hassle die down, and 18 months after leaving, Bonds are back on the TV in force with major ad campaigns for underwear.

Another backdrop is that of the Occupy movement. In solidarity with the 99% at Wall Street, Australia has seen Occupy Sydney, Occupy Melbourne and Occupy Adelaide. Melbourne in particular hit the media in a big way because of the Lord Mayor sanctioning Vic police use of force against peaceful protestors because after a week the Mayor decided they'd had their say and needed to be moved on. It means the Occupy movement is in the news, and the irony of the Qantas staff seeking percentage pay rises against Joyce's huge pay rise isn't lost on the public. (Favourite tweet: "Qantas pilots seek 2.5% pay rise to be in line with inflation. Joyce takes 66% pay rise to be in line with Branson.")

So where are we now:

Fair Work Australia are to sit again today and decide next steps.
FWA have already ordered the fleet back into the skies, which should begin this afternoon.
There are calls for the airline to be nationalised.
There are split calls for Joyce's head on a platter, and Joyce's canonisation, depending who you're listening to.

The upshot: I'm flying Virgin.

/edited to add I believe Fair Work Australia have come to a decision and published an order, but I haven't read what that involves yet.

jank

Stinicker wrote: »

Qantas beats Singapore every single day, Singapore air are always €100-200 more expensive on the Kangaroo route at at least €400 more expensive than Emirates, I believe they offer great service but why pay the same to Singapore when you could get an upgrade for the same price with a different airline.

I found Qantas to be very good with real Aussie staff, Ok I only took six flights with them but found their staff and service excellent compared to BA, I believe the Unions should concede a little but not allow their Aussie staff be replaced by yellow pack workers from Asia as we have seen happening over here in all walks of life. If corporate greed wins out then it is the opening of the flood gates which will ultimately destroy Australia one of the last places left for proper wages and working conditions.

Hmmm, OK well first of all there is a reason why Singapore Airlines are more expensive. You have to look at legislation that comes out of Canberra that treats Qantas much more favourably than Singapore Airlines.

This is nothing to do with coroporate greed. The international dvision of Qantas are losing 200 million a year. It is bleeding the company dry. Is it corporate greed to actually run a profit and keep the airline afloat?
Nothing wrong with earning a decent wage but I think the mentality that one should be earning $20+ an hour to cleaners is an outdated one. As I said high wages are only there to support high property prices.

jank

Heh, Qantas shares up almost 7% today!
http://www.google.com/finance?q=ASX%3AQAN#

On a side note, my other half works with a travel agent and they have not been putting people on Qantas flights at all for the past few months due to the continious disruption of the unions. The unions knew what they were doing. Get their demands meet or these minor disruptions will go on for the next year or so. The only thing Alan Joyce did was pull the rug from under the unions. At least now an end is in sight.

Seems to have paid off for Alan Joyce. Maybe we can make him minister of transport

ellaq

I'm sure Richard Branson just loves Alan Joyce at the moment. What happened was pretty much unforgiveable to their customers, leaving people stranded like that. Not even the Unions would have done that just to prove a point.

Qantas has been suffering from negative media for a number of years now for various issues. But in fairness that $249m profit is a lot less than say their almost $500m back in 2006.

An airline that is willing to shut itself down like that is not reliable. And the businesses in this country that hadn't already switch their business to Virgin will be trying to do so. They all remember the chaos and expensive nightmare of the Ansett collapse.

Who would be willing to fly with them now?

d.pop

ellaq wrote: »

I'm sure Richard Branson just loves Alan Joyce at the moment. What happened was pretty much unforgiveable to their customers, leaving people stranded like that. Not even the Unions would have done that just to prove a point.

Qantas has been suffering from negative media for a number of years now for various issues. But in fairness that $249m profit is a lot less than say their almost $500m back in 2006.

An airline that is willing to shut itself down like that is not reliable. And the businesses in this country that hadn't already switch their business to Virgin will be trying to do so. They all remember the chaos and expensive nightmare of the Ansett collapse.

Who would be willing to fly with them now?

Ellaq, i had a different take on it...
Wondering did anybody else read into the first announcement re the grounding the same way that i did?
Alan Joyce announced the lockout was to take place from 8pm Monday or whenever, interestingly he then went on to explain that they were concerned that between saturday and monday there would be an opprotunity for disgruntled workers to sabotage planes (or something to that effect), unwilling to take the risk with passengers safety Qantas shut down the airline so as no sillyness could take place.
Maybe it was all b.s. but i thought it was a clever little dig and a good defendible reason to do what they did.
I think a company prepared to do shut itself down like that is a company i would do business with in the future as they are obviously passionate and serious about sticking around and making a go of it. They're saying we'll do it this way or you can all bugger off....good on them i reckon.

ellaq

I think it is a good thing that we all see it differently. Without people like dpop I think they would be finished.

I see a company that put their shareholders before their customers and what is a business without customers. I find it hard to believe that any disgruntled employee would sabotage a plane or put passenger safety at risk.

A number of years ago singapore airlines wanted to start running domestic flights in Australia. The legislation that protects qantas stopped singapore airlines from doing so. Virgin had to fight hard for their right to operate here.

irishmover

Good man Joyce up to his old tricks again.

http://m.smh.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-chief-alan-joyce-cuts-5000-jobs-20140227-33j48.html

jank

The airline is too bloated and ruined by unions. BA and Air NZ went through similar issues and are not more competitive because of it.

irishmover

jank wrote: »

The airline is too bloated and ruined by unions. BA and Air NZ went through similar issues and are not more competitive because of it.

Yeh there's talks of another strike from the unions. They're a bit nuts.

Virgin Australia announced an $83m loss for half yearly report. Not really looking rosy for either airline at the moment.

http://m.couriermail.com.au/business/companies/virgin-australia-announces-837-million-aftertax-loss-a-day-after-qantas-announces-252-million-deficit/story-fnkjkuhv-1226840659657?from=public_rss

mandrake04

irishmover wrote: »

Yeh there's talks of another strike from the unions. They're a bit nuts.

Virgin Australia announced an $83m loss for half yearly report. Not really looking rosy for either airline at the moment.

http://m.couriermail.com.au/business/companies/virgin-australia-announces-837-million-aftertax-loss-a-day-after-qantas-announces-252-million-deficit/story-fnkjkuhv-1226840659657?from=public_rss

That's what happens in a cut throat market share war, Qantas maintains a 65% domestic share and as Virgin increases routes and seats Qantas also has increase seats. The result is a lot of planes flying around with empty seats.

I usually fly a couple of times a week, flying to coffs Harbor on Monday for $107 and I only booked it last night..... that's cheaper than the petrol if I decided to drive. If I booked it two weeks ago it would have been about $69.