Occ. Dames Street: At least they arent apathetic...

DeVore

Look, I dont agree with everything they stand for, though I do agree with a good chunk of it. That notwithstanding...

For years part, a big part, of Ireland's problem at the core is that no one gives a sh*t. We've let scandal after scandal roll past and all that happens is the tribunals pay the barristers enough for a few new houses.

You might not agree with them. You may in fact have serious political/economic differences with them but take a look out of your window and appreciate that they are standing (or more likely huddling) for their beliefs in that God awful weather.

I admire their commitment to their beliefs.

DeV.

Einhard

DeVore wrote: »

Look, I dont agree with everything they stand for, though I do agree with a good chunk of it. That notwithstanding...

For years part, a big part, of Ireland's problem at the core is that no one gives a sh*t. We've let scandal after scandal roll past and all that happens is the tribunals pay the barristers enough for a few new houses.

You might not agree with them. You may in fact have serious political/economic differences with them but take a look out of your window and appreciate that they are standing (or more likely huddling) for their beliefs in that God awful weather.

I admire their commitment to their beliefs.

DeV.

I admire their commitment, but I dislike their arrogance, and what I believe to be their contempt for democracy.

They do not represent me. Indeed, they represet very few of the Irish population, if their numbers, and the voting record of the electorate are anything to go by. And yet they have the arrogance to claim that they do represent out views. The whole 99% is nauseating. Fair enough- if you want to protest, do so. But stop claiming that you represent the silent majority, when that majority has repeatedly repudiated your views and perspectives.

That brings me to their contempt for democracy. It seems to have escaped the notice of the ODS protestors that Ireland had a general election in March of this year. There was a very clear choice open to the public. The far left had never been more represented at the polls, and anger at the incumbents was at an all time high. And yet, the policies of the far left, those which the ODS protestors are, by and large, espousing, were rejected by the populace.One would have thought that this reality might have sunk in with the protestors, but no- they're still out there claiming to represent the views of some silent majority, and claiming that their miniscule protest somehow trumps, as a democratic process, the prcoess in the Spring whereby hundreds of thousands cast their ballots. They scorn the very democratic ideals which they then invoke to fraudulently boost their cause.

So...no, I don't really like these protestors. I can understand where they're coming from, and their commitment is admirable. But their arrogance and contempt for democratic process is deeply off-putting.

sarkozy

They do not represent me.

I thought the idea is you go there to represent yourself. Together, you represent something bigger and more connected than yourself.

The 99% thing is based on evidence. If you read about income and wealth inequality trends over the past 15 years, you'll see that. I've seen the thick edge of this wedge in Africa and I assure you it's real in rich and poor countries.

Perhaps, what you see as the 'arrogance' of the Occupy Dame Street crowd is anger/frustration/sadness about their, their friends' or families' and the country's sad situation. Perhaps, rather than arrogance, they're suggesting the reverse - it was the arrogance of a powerful minority to affect the majority that's caused them to feel that way. This, to me, is the opposite of arrogance. It's humanism.

You don't have to agree with everything 'they' stand for, because they only stand for what participants in the ODS events themselves think and say. 'They' could become 'you' or, 'us all'. And not everyone participating are the (stereo)typical 'crusties' - ODS is slowly becoming more diverse.

DeVore

My main point is simply that on a foul night like tonight I admire that they aren't just being apathetic and they left their warm dry beds to protest for their own reasons.

Agree with them or not (and please dont turn this into a platform for taking shots at them)... I admire their commitment to what they believe in. It cant be easy out there tonight.

DeV.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

DeVore

You cant admire anyone's determination and efforts unless you agree with them??

And your opening logic is flawed. If I come in from the rain with friends and say "hey, at least we arent wet" it doesnt mean everyone else in the world is drowning. Logic fail there PB... oh, but you meant that didnt you or there is nothing to rail against. Ah, gotcha.


DeV.

Godge

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.e from that gas field now.

Slydice

I agree, I think they have serious balls or maybe at just plain gumption.

All I've really heard is that they are not allowing political signs.

I don't know what they stand for but they are outside the Central Bank.

Outside what I consider to be one of the Focal Points of the Bust we are now in.

Fair Play to Them, I hope they annoy the piss out of the politicans and bankers who are about to pay $1 Billion (€700m) to UnGuaranteed, UnSecured Anglo Irish Bank Bondholders while they'll no doubt cut the health service again later this year.

See how much more bondholders we'll be paying here: http://bondwatchireland.blogspot.com/

Yitzhak Rabin

Weren't you the one who was telling people not to protest back in 2010, with one of your main reasons being that it won't achieve anything?

Godge

Einhard wrote: »

I admire their commitment, but I dislike their arrogance, and what I believe to be their contempt for democracy.

They do not represent me. Indeed, they represet very few of the Irish population, if their numbers, and the voting record of the electorate are anything to go by. And yet they have the arrogance to claim that they do represent out views. The whole 99% is nauseating. Fair enough- if you want to protest, do so. But stop claiming that you represent the silent majority, when that majority has repeatedly repudiated your views and perspectives.

That brings me to their contempt for democracy. It seems to have escaped the notice of the ODS protestors that Ireland had a general election in March of this year. There was a very clear choice open to the public. The far left had never been more represented at the polls, and anger at the incumbents was at an all time high. And yet, the policies of the far left, those which the ODS protestors are, by and large, espousing, were rejected by the populace.One would have thought that this reality might have sunk in with the protestors, but no- they're still out there claiming to represent the views of some silent majority, and claiming that their miniscule protest somehow trumps, as a democratic process, the prcoess in the Spring whereby hundreds of thousands cast their ballots. They scorn the very democratic ideals which they then invoke to fraudulently boost their cause.

So...no, I don't really like these protestors. I can understand where they're coming from, and their commitment is admirable. But their arrogance and contempt for democratic process is deeply off-putting.

You are absolutely right about their contempt for democracy. This government has only had seven months. FF got nearly 20 years.

This protest would have been right from 1 October 2008 until the general election given the way the FF government destroyed the country. Then the people had their say. They had the choices put in front of them and they decided by a huge majority to elect a FG/Labour coalition and to reject the outgoing FF/Green government. The people also threw a few crumbs to the ULA and Sinn Fein but together those two only got a small number of seats. Now let them get on with the job and judge them at the next election - that is what our democracy is for.

DeVore

yekahS wrote: »

Weren't you the one who was telling people not to protest back in 2010, with one of your main reasons being that it won't achieve anything?

No, I was the one saying that right in the middle of the currency speculation we shouldnt go out and violently protest THEN because it wasnt in OUR interests to do so. [1]

Do try keep up.

I'm not sure what my previous actions have to do with this anyway. Bad argument mate.

DeV.
[1] And the fact that we snuck in a Bond sale *before* our bonds hit the roof has been a major part of us not turning into Greece btw.

Slydice

DeVore wrote: »

[1] And the fact that we snuck in a Bond sale *before* our bonds hit the roof has been a major part of us not turning into Greece btw.

Really? Sounds like that'd be a countdown then.

How much was it?

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

DeVore wrote: »

Look, I dont agree with everything they stand for, though I do agree with a good chunk of it. That notwithstanding...

For years part, a big part, of Ireland's problem at the core is that no one gives a sh*t. We've let scandal after scandal roll past and all that happens is the tribunals pay the barristers enough for a few new houses.

You might not agree with them. You may in fact have serious political/economic differences with them but take a look out of your window and appreciate that they are standing (or more likely huddling) for their beliefs in that God awful weather.

I admire their commitment to their beliefs.

DeV.

I will reply to your post by quoting another poster from parallel thread

hmmm wrote: »

An election deposit is only 500 quid. If your views are so vital and important, why not simply put yourself forward for election and let the 99% decide? If we let every group who takes to the streets dictate policy, we'll be no better than Germany in the 1930s.

---

I also started a thread here asking what exactly is it that "they" want?

---

The 99% thing is based on evidence. If you read about income and wealth inequality trends over the past 15 years, you'll see that. I've seen the thick edge of this wedge in Africa and I assure you it's real in rich and poor countries.

What evidence? where are the facts and figures??

Yitzhak Rabin

DeVore wrote: »

yekahS wrote: »

Weren't you the one who was telling people not to protest back in 2010, with one of your main reasons being that it won't achieve anything?

No, I was the one saying that right in the middle of the currency speculation we shouldnt go out and violently protest THEN because it wasnt in OUR interests to do so. [1]

Do try keep up.

I'm not sure what my previous actions have to do with this anyway. Bad argument mate.

DeV.
[1] And the fact that we snuck in a Bond sale *before* our bonds hit the roof has been a major part of us not turning into Greece btw.

Reckon im keeping up just fine thanks.

So you no longer believe:

Going out and protesting right now is NOT going to change anything, I'm sorry but do you really think it will? Has it ever before??

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055911944

ei.sdraob

@DeVore

* Should angry mobs direct the policy of a state?

* Why is "democracy" and democratic process suddenly out of fashion?

* Is the irony of a small group of people (Occupy) wanting to change the direction/policy of a state by ignoring the democratic process not apparent to these people (Occupy)?

20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@DeVore

* Should angry mobs direct the policy of a state?

* Why is "democracy" and democratic process suddenly out of fashion?

* Is the irony of a small group of people (Occupy) wanting to change the direction/policy of a state by ignoring the democratic process not apparent to these people (Occupy)?

They are actually protesting a small group of people controlling the state and ignoring the democratic process. Your post is very ironic

MysticalRain

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@DeVore

* Should angry mobs direct the policy of a state?

* Why is "democracy" and democratic process suddenly out of fashion?

* Is the irony of a small group of people (Occupy) wanting to change the direction/policy of a state by ignoring the democratic process not apparent to these people (Occupy)?

FFS. Protests and demonstrations are a legitimate part of a normal functioning democracy. The protestors are trying to influence the government, not launch a coup to overthrow it.

I have my disagreements with the protestors (they are a bit too left wing for my liking). But I agree with them to the extent that this country has turned into a fcuked up kleptocracy, and they are at least trying to do something about it. The left-wingers in this country tend to be a better organized when it comes to mass movements, and right now I don't see any better ideas coming from the right. So they are pretty much the only show in town.

Sand

None of those hippies actually want a more democratic process, because the vast majority of Ireland is much more socially conservative and economically liberal than they are. Most of the socially liberal reforms that have been introduced have been done so with the various TDs excusing themselves to their constituents by wringing their hands, blaming Brussels for these crazy human rights. Whatever their meandering nonsensical incoherent call is for, its not for a more democratic society.

As to what they actually want, who knows and more importantly, who cares?

20Cent

Sand wrote: »

None of those hippies actually want a more democratic process, because the vast majority of Ireland is much more socially conservative and economically liberal than they are. Most of the socially liberal reforms that have been introduced have been done so with the various TDs excusing themselves to their constituents by wringing their hands, blaming Brussels for these crazy human rights. Whatever their meandering nonsensical incoherent call is for, its not for a more democratic society.

As to what they actually want, who knows and more importantly, who cares?

So you state what you think they want and then ask who knows what they want???? Which is it?

Did you survey them all?

Great thing about the movement is it exposes the shills who give lip service to freedom and democracy but when it actually happens fall back into their authoritarian default mode.

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

MysticalRain wrote: »

FFS. Protests and demonstrations are a legitimate part of a normal functioning democracy.
The protestors are trying to influence the government, not launch a coup to overthrow it.

Yes they are, but this is quite different if you bother to read the threads here

the protesters have no interest in engaging with the public for their aims (whatever those are) via the normal democratic processes and means

since directly quoting "the democratic process has failed us"

go ahead read several of the threads here, if they really wanted to engage within the democratic framework they would have produced a clear manifesto (i started a whole thread trying to figure out what is it they want) and registered themselves as a political party putting themselves forward in the next elections

these people spit on democracy and its ways, and therefore are nothing but an angry mob trying to force change in a very undemocratic manner

ei.sdraob

Sand wrote: »

As to what they actually want, who knows and more importantly, who cares?

I started a thread here to figure out what they want
What sort of a political movement has no clear set of aims and policies on a wide range of subjects?

Hell anyone remember Amhran Nua here on boards? at least they bothered to spend time to setup a site and were present here on boards to answer questions.

If these protestors want to be taken seriously they need to stop ignoring this thing we have called democracy which is in place to protect the society from semi-organised mobs like this lot having too much influence

ed2hands

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes they are, but this is quite different if you bother to read the threads here

the protesters have no interest in engaging with the public for their aims (whatever those are) via the normal democratic processes and means

since directly quoting "the democratic process has failed us"

go ahead read several of the threads here, if they really wanted to engage within the democratic framework they would have produced a clear manifesto (i started a whole thread trying to figure out what is it they want) and registered themselves as a political party putting themselves forward in the next elections

these people spit on democracy and its ways, and therefore are nothing but an angry mob trying to force change in a very undemocratic manner

Spit on democracy? That's a bit melodramatic isn't it? And a bit inaccurate aswell i'd say. Watch O'Reilly on Fox much?
You seem to be trying to morph the reality of lawful peaceful protesters into some sort of angry mob about to attempt an undemocratic coup.

Stretching the truth of the matter to suit contrived stereotypes is to be expected i suppose and quite common it seems by the amount of gob****es still dimissing the whole movement as just a "bunch of hippies".
What puzzles me is that many of these gob****es even sympathise and agree with the movements broad aims, but are so stuck up their own holes, that rather than support it or at least be neutral, they'll aim to slander and misrepresent it. The mind boggles:)

ei.sdraob

Inaccurate? here are some posts from people identifying themselves to be involved with occupy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The political process is a shambles. Check out my posts about Fingleton and the British EU referendum (which was ignored by those responding to me, I might add) earlier in the thread.

If I ever run for election it'll be under a totally different system of democracy to this one. This one is a sham.

PeadarCo wrote: »

If people don't want to vote for a political party they are few free to elect independents that only look after their interests. But to fair isn't that exactly what the protesters are against? Politicians looking after only a select few. And if political parties aren't democratic why do people vote for them why not just vote indepedents. How parties operate in the Dail isn't a secret people vote in the knowlege of this.

hatrickpatrick wrote:

What about a "no party government"? What about a government in which the people have more direct control, or have more control over what their representatives do in power? What about a system where we DON'T elect people for 5 years and they can then do WHATEVER THEY WANT regardless of what they promised before the election?

Participatory democracy = all the people have more say in more decisions rather than handing it over to a small group to run amok with power for 5 years in which the citizens are utterly powerless to stop them.

From their manifesto

"Our demand is for real, participatory democracy ... where the people decide what happens."

It is very apparent that they do they not want to engage within the current representative democracy framework, and replace it with direct demoracratic model (or worse when it comes to the more far left inclined elements)

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is great. The state can do no right, freedom loving, right wing, everyone do what they want etc brigade turn into dedicated supporters of the establishment at the first sign of any dissent. Shows how empty the rhetoric is.

The slander and the mocking stage is over for most people. Serious people are taking these protests into consideration all over the world.

1 in 100 year storm last night and they are still there shows dedication.

ei.sdraob

Dedication to what exactly?

It is clear as mud as to what you lot want.

Permabear

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seamus

20Cent wrote: »

1 in 100 year storm last night and they are still there shows dedication.

It sure does. And so did people battling through snow last year to go to mass.

However, it doesn't add even a sliver of legitimacy to what they're doing. The validity of a viewpoint isn't measured by how strongly someone feels about it.

That is, I'm not suddenly thinking, "Wow, they stayed firm in that weather yesterday, maybe they actually have a point I should consider".

Instead I'm thinking, "Wow, they stayed firm in that weather yesterday, they're more militant than I thought".

Godge

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Dedication to what exactly?

It is clear as mud as to what you lot want.

Ah be fair, they want our nonexistent undiscovered oil and gas reserves that were given away by Ray Burke to be taken back:rolleyes:.

Then again, given that the Burke licenses are expiring, that probably is as clear as the mud coming out of the few holes that were drilled:).

doopa

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think its possible with a party political system to say why exactly people voted for a political party in the election. From talking to people and reading the papers vox pox it seems most people vote for people not ideas. Even if they do vote for ideas, perhaps there is one idea out of many that a political party stand for that you prioritise. E.g. with SF a united Ireland. Now one might abhor the rest of their political ideas but really like the idea of a united ireland. By your logic that means you support the burning of the bondholders.

I realise its slightly semantic, but we don't choose really. I personally disliked all of the candidates standing in the last election, as I am assuming you did too since your libertarian ideas aren't represented on the ballot. However, one selects from a pre-defined list. Neither SF or ULA are part of the solution (? - actually I think its probably closer to a problem that they are framing) that the Occupy movement are suggesting. Both are democratic centralist (of a Trokskyist flavour) who are in favour of a representative democracy and professional politicians.

Having been following these kind of movements for a while now (for the record I'd see the genesis of these movements at the turn of the millenium) I think the ODS one is ideologically pretty incoherent. If you compare it to the OWS or OLSX the difference is pretty clear. Some of the placards outside the Dame Street protests are bordering on the paranoid and delusional. That said there was one decent one but it was made by a well funded NGO. It worth looking back at the roots of these protests, which like I say go back quite a bit, and I would also argue don't include the likes of SF, ULA - there was a really nice write up from schnews years ago complaining about the Socialist Worker in the UK constantly hijacking these kind of protests (will try to post it up later). Essentially I think these protesters need to be regarded as separate to those represented on the ballot this year, though I'd agree this makes their pretensions to 'representing' the 99% pretty ludicrous. However, if you read the reports from other cities I think what they (as in Occupy generally not ODS) are claiming is more nuanced. The inexperience of the ODS in articulating exactly what they mean isn't really a problem for me, I think its great that people are out there protesting against the almighty **** up that is the Irish political system, even if they aren't clear on what exactly they want to replace it. Acknoweldging the problem is a start.

ed2hands

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Oh dear. Your links up there are from Sinn Feins website; not the movement we're discussing. Nice little trick there.
Are you really that desperate to associate the movement that is clearly non-affilliated with another political party just because you've decided they're one and the same?
Sinn Fein and Occupy are not one and the same, therefore your argument that the people have already spoken on this along with the rest of your related reasoning is completely spurious. The people have spoken on Sinn Fein and it's policies full stop.
And you maintain that Occupy should accept this flawed logic as some sort of mandate from the electorate to pack up and go home?
I'm sorry but i don't buy that argument at all.

ei.sdraob

doopa wrote: »

Acknoweldging the problem is a start.

In engineering

you identify a problem,
proceed to identify root causes,
design and develop a solution with a clear aim of fixing/addressing the issue(s)
test the solution during developing and monitor after completion where possible incorporating feedback during maintenance

Be it a bridge or a computer program

---

Same process could be applied to politics,
@Permabear and me and few others here on politics forum constantly:
point out the issues
AND identify the root causes
AND provide solutions

I have been trying very hard for the last few days to extract information from this group, and we still dont know what is it they want.

The aims are unclear and scattered, the root causes are either not identified or misidentified, and the proposed solutions (what little we hear of them) sound awfully familiar to political experiments based on daft ideologies of the 20th century that failed so many people in so many countries

---

The OP should have used the word "pathetic" instead of "apathetic"

Definition of PATHETIC

1
: having a capacity to move one to either compassionate or contemptuous pity
2
: marked by sorrow or melancholy : sad
3
: pitifully inferior or inadequate <the restaurant's pathetic service>
4
: absurd, laughable <a pathetic costume>

Mr. Presentable

How long have they been out there? Are they the same people staying there round the clock?

Permabear

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20Cent

It is patently clear that we have insufficinet democracy in Ireland. In fact FG and Labour agree and are holding a citizens assembly to examine the issue.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Thats just one of the demands.
Protesting can be used to influence such things.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

Thats just one of the demands.
Protesting can be used to influence such things.

Because the politicians will look out the windows of the Dail and be influenced somehow by people protesting/camping in a separate part of Dublin city centre?

If you want to learn how to influence government then take a page out of the book written by pensioners protesting about medical cards not too long ago. Their protest was large, well organised and well targeted, and whether one agrees with what they wanted they achieved their aim by staying within the current democratic/political framework in this country.

20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Because the politicians will look out the windows of the Dail and be influenced somehow by people protesting/camping in a separate part of Dublin city centre?

They are actually yes.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

They are actually yes.

Somehow I suspect they are more influenced by the pints in the Dail Bar when it comes to decision making than a bunch of people occupying the central bank.

Permabear

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Permabear

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meglome

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Because the politicians will look out the windows of the Dail and be influenced somehow by people protesting/camping in a separate part of Dublin city centre?

It's only the best part of a kilometre away, maybe they'll take a wrong turn on the way to the Dail.

doopa

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Link to the report I mentioned earlier.
http://www.schnews.org.uk/monopresist/monopoliseresistance/index.htm

This is why movements like ODS won't work. The organised resistance, SF, ULA (SWP - aren't they the same?) will always seek to undermine, infiltrate and subvert campaigns like ODS.

I support the campaign (ish) but I have to agree with Permabear and others that the vague demands (of ODS in particular) do the movement no justice. If you look at the other protests the following is their aim:
we vow to end the monied corruption of our democracy … join us! We're now in DAY 39.
Note that it is a singular though fairly nebulous demand.

doopa

ei.sdraob wrote: »

In engineering

you identify a problem,
proceed to identify root causes,
design and develop a solution with a clear aim of fixing/addressing the issue(s)
test the solution during developing and monitor after completion where possible incorporating feedback during maintenance

Be it a bridge or a computer program

Politics != engineering.

ei.sdraob

doopa wrote: »

Politics != engineering.

Its an approach to solving issues that works,

the current approach to solving <political/economic> issues in this country involves consulting and listening to the "social partners", ignoring facts and reality and coming up with solutions that fall at first hurdle (or explode spectacularly later on), or alternatively just kicking the problem down the road for someone else to deal with


Politicians could learn alot from science and engineering

It might make politics seem "less dirty and corrupt" which should also please the Occupy crowd a win win

ed2hands

ei.sdraob wrote: »

The OP should have used the word "pathetic" instead of "apathetic"

Good idea! So the OP would read:

Occupy Dames St: At least they aren't pathetic


They're certainly not pathetic IMO.

What's pathetic if you ask me is some of the half-baked poo-pooing by the back-of-a-beermat pseudo-economists i've read on here. You and Permabear have provided solutions you say? Indeed. Pity some of them are straight out of the Milton Friedman school of idiots that got us where we are today.

And add to that the schoolyard slander straight from outa Fox news based on nothing it seems other than snobbishness and being up one's hole.

Am in no way connected to the movement by the way. Just a supporter.
Not to say i don't have criticisms of them myself mind. But the way i see it is Rome wasn't built in a day.

ei.sdraob

So when you can not answer the simple questions being asked about Occupy or respond to criticisms being made, you then proceed to attack the poster debating.


Yes yes I see, is that what your model of "participative democracy" would look like :rolleyes:
anyones whose opinion doesn't match the Partyline or questions it is erm ... ... dealt with :rolleyes:

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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You don't see it is right!
All you see is a bunch of tents.
Its a worldwide movement that is already causing great changes.
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean its now working.