RTE's Irish side to start 6 nations

Fishooks12

15. Kearney
14. Trimble
13. Bowe
12. BOD
11. Earls
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. Dominic Ryan
6. SOB
5. Ferris
4. POC
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

Great team IMO, Ferris in the back row would make for a nice balance of styles between himself and POC

danthefan

Dominic Ryan won't be anywhere near the team.

jacothelad

You can't play Ferris in the second row. His knee isn't up to taking the battering as a lineout jumper.

All this mince about Bowe as a 13 is pure drivel. He isn't any great shakes there at the Ospreys.

As for Murray, a bit of a poor choice based on his very average showings so far. He simply isn't that good. His game has far too many flaws I think.

LeeroyJones

danthefan wrote: »

Dominic Ryan won't be anywhere near the team.

Personal judgement on Ryan or predicting Kidney's call?

As a player, I think this season could be huge for him. He had 23 appearances last season including 5 HCup and he took it all in his stride and impressed. If he can push on from that this season I would be livid if he's not in the Ireland Squad at least

Fishooks12

jacothelad wrote: »

You can't play Ferris in the second row. His knee isn't up to taking the battering as a lineout jumper.

All this mince about Bowe as a 13 is pure drivel. He isn't any great shakes there at the Ospreys.

As for Murray, a bit of a poor choice based on his very average showings so far. He simply isn't that good. His game has far too many flaws I think.

How could you possibly know that? Ferris jumps occasionally at 6 anyway

Have you ever seen Murray play for Munster? No doubt he has the potential to be a top quality 9

danthefan

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Personal judgement on Ryan or predicting Kidney's call?

As a player, I think this season could be huge for him. He had 23 appearances last season including 5 HCup and he took it all in his stride and impressed. If he can push on from that this season I would be livid if he's not in the Ireland Squad at least

Both tbh. His performances at the start of this season were underwhelming, he won't be first choice for Leinster and there are better players we can pick. If we're purely predicting Kidney's call then there is a 0% chance of Ryan starting for Ireland in 2012, a lot of injuries aside.

Sport101

15. Kearney
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Darcy
11. Trimble
10. Sexton
9. Reddan
8. Heaslip
7. SOB
6. Ferris
5. DOC
4. POC
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

The team that should have started v Wales IMO, but with a fresher bench. Hopefully some of the younger players will put their hands up during the next few rounds of the HC, but until then, that's the strongest 15.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

Both tbh. His performances at the start of this season were underwhelming, he won't be first choice for Leinster and there are better players we can pick. If we're purely predicting Kidney's call then there is a 0% chance of Ryan starting for Ireland in 2012, a lot of injuries aside.

Wouldn't agree with Ryans form so far this year, I think he's been good

Kidney brought Murray up from no-where so If he's getting his place for Leinster I've no doubt he'll get an opportunity

dtpc191991

I disagree Spence/Fitz at 12 and BOD at 13 should be centres. Bowe should not be moved from the wing. What would be the point of moving our best back out of his best position.

jacothelad

Fishooks12 wrote: »

How could you possibly know that? Ferris jumps occasionally at 6 anyway

Have you ever seen Murray play for Munster? No doubt he has the potential to be a top quality 9

Do you understand the nature of the problem that Ferris has with his knee? As a retired lecturer in Clinical Anatomy and Physiology I have a pretty good insight in to what he can and cannot do on a regular basis. being used as a lineout jumper would put a huge strain on the already compromised joint. It wouldn't be the occasional jump in the game that is the problem, it is the need to practice endlessly to get calls right and Ferris is not going to play 4 or 5 for Ulster.

Also, I have seen Murray play for Munster. What is your point. He is a very average player. Slow getting to rucks, slow getting the ball away, prone to daft lurches forward into contact, doesn't make a break worth a damn and a slow pass. He may have potential. He needs to develop it. If that type of player fulfills your criteria for an international shirt that's fine. Stick with it. it wouldn't be mine. If he gets past those flaws it will be brilliant. I'm sure Kidney will give him many opportunities to do so.

Sabre0001

Sport101 wrote: »

The team that should have started v Wales IMO, but with a fresher bench. Hopefully some of the younger players will put their hands up during the next few rounds of the HC, but until then, that's the strongest 15.

Do we want another four years of playing to win every single game or should we be developing a squad and up-and-coming players? You don't do that at provincial level...

Sport101

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Do we want another four years of playing to win every single game or should we be developing a squad and up-and-coming players? You don't do that at provincial level...

Players need to step up at provincial level first in big games. If they do, then of course they should be selected, if not then they shouldn't. Let's see how they go over the next few months, there's no point in selecting a younger player just for the sake of it if a more senior player is actually in better form.

thebogeyman

I would be more of the mindset to let younger guys have a go. Murray wasn't exactly established with Munster and he became first choice.

Players need to be given a chance, I have doubts over murray and like the previous poster said he can seem slow at the breakdown. However he needs to be given a run of games. As does Nevin/spence there is no point throwing them on 5 minutes left against wales. We need to play a few (not every position) but give guys a run from the start.

The backrow is young and they were on fire during the world cup. I know there is a strong argument for an out and out 7 but I don't think we should change the unit just yet. Between Heaslip and SOB they can try and make up for a lack of 7. Beaten once by wales does not mean the backrow is crap. Those three players are young enough to be around in 4 years and should be given a run. Murray likewise.

We know BOD and Darce aren't going to be around in 4 years so we should look at trying either Nevin or Spence and let them have a few games in a row. Sexton is good and is almost a senior player at this stage, lets look at getting another young fly half to challenge him for his position. Madigan is playing well or Jackson up north but need to start bringing in young blood faster. Sink or swim at the deep end.

Fishooks12

jacothelad wrote: »

Do you understand the nature of the problem that Ferris has with his knee? As a retired lecturer in Clinical Anatomy and Physiology I have a pretty good insight in to what he can and cannot do on a regular basis. being used as a lineout jumper would put a huge strain on the already compromised joint. It wouldn't be the occasional jump in the game that is the problem, it is the need to practice endlessly to get calls right and Ferris is not going to play 4 or 5 for Ulster.

Also, I have seen Murray play for Munster. What is your point. He is a very average player. Slow getting to rucks, slow getting the ball away, prone to daft lurches forward into contact, doesn't make a break worth a damn and a slow pass. He may have potential. He needs to develop it. If that type of player fulfills your criteria for an international shirt that's fine. Stick with it. it wouldn't be mine. If he gets past those flaws it will be brilliant. I'm sure Kidney will give him many opportunities to do so.

If you think Murray is a "really average player" you need your head checked or need to reassert how you view the game

He's got a huge physique, He's quicker at the base than TOL and Boss, maybe not Reddan yet

He has the best box kick out of all our 9s, something that's been really lacking in the last few years

And he's the biggest running threat from 9 out of all our scrum halves

You're implying he was average for Munster which is quiet frankly laughable considering how good he was in the Magners league and in the HC (playing behind a pack that was dominated more often than not)

His form for Ireland wasn't as good but what do you expect of a guy who got his 1st cap 2 months ago. He was very good against Italy and although he didn't shine in the quarter it's unfair to single him out because no-one did

Re your Ferris post. It doesn't take a degree in anatomy to figure out that just because Ferris could be moved to 5 doesn't mean he has to jump in the line-out, plenty of locks don't jump in the line-out. And thats not withstanding the fact that he was jumping at 6 for Ireland this year, meaning jumping couldn't be putting his knee under that much strain.

That's not to say Ferris will be put in, I don't think he will, I'm just saying that the line-out wouldn't be a problem if he did

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Both tbh. His performances at the start of this season were underwhelming, he won't be first choice for Leinster and there are better players we can pick. If we're purely predicting Kidney's call then there is a 0% chance of Ryan starting for Ireland in 2012, a lot of injuries aside.

Ryan was one of Leinster's best performers before his injury... But I agree it's unlikely that he'll play for Ireland this year.

In fact the whole team is completely unlikely. Bowe at 13 isn't going to happen because a) He's not good enough at 13 for the Ospreys and b) He's our best winger.

Ferris not playing in the row has nothing to do with the lineout, he can't jump there as we know, but Heaslip, POC and D. Ryan could be the focus and we could continue as normal. The reason he won't play there is because a) He's one dodgy scrum from twisting his knee, where he has far less freedom than on the flank, b) He's not going to play there for Ulster, so where exactly is he going to be able to practice?. c) He's an awesome flanker and would be wasted in the row at scrum time.

Our team will be Kearney, Bowe, BOD, D'Arcy, Earls, Sexton, Murray, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ross, Best, Healy. Maybe Kidney will finally replace D'Arcy, but I have my doubts. I won't mind so long as the backs look like they are in any way creative for a change.

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

If you think Murray is a "really average player" you need your head checked or need to reassert how you view the game

He's got a huge physique, He's quicker at the base than TOL and Boss, maybe not Reddan yet

He has the best box kick out of all our 9s, something that's been really lacking in the last few years

And he's the biggest running threat from 9 out of all our scrum halves

You're implying he was average for Munster which is quiet frankly laughable considering how good he was in the Magners league and in the HC (playing behind a pack that was dominated more often than not)

His form for Ireland wasn't as good but what do you expect of a guy who got his 1st cap 2 months ago. He was very good against Italy and although he didn't shine in the quarter it's unfair to single him out because no-one did

Re your Ferris post. It doesn't take a degree in anatomy to figure out that just because Ferris could be moved to 5 doesn't mean he has to jump in the line-out, plenty of locks don't jump in the line-out. And thats not withstanding the fact that he was jumping at 6 for Ireland this year, meaning jumping couldn't be putting his knee under that much strain.

Fishooks, you've made a number of just completely made up/completely wrong comments recently which makes it very hard to take you seriously. Murray has NEVER played in the HEC. Not for a single minute.

decisions

I think we should be sacrificing short term success and instead play the long game, bringing up the younger talent. I would like to see:

15. Kearney
14. Carr/ Bowe
13. BOD
12 . McFadden/Spence
11. Fitz/ Kearney
10. Sexton/ ROG
9. Redden / Murray
8. Heaslip
7. SOB
6. Ferris / Ryan
5. Ryan/ Toner
4. POC
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

With an experienced bench

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

If you think Murray is a "really average player" you need your head checked or need to reassert how you view the game

He's got a huge physique, He's quicker at the base than TOL and Boss, maybe not Reddan yet

He has the best box kick out of all our 9s, something that's been really lacking in the last few years

And he's the biggest running threat from 9 out of all our scrum halves

You're implying he was average for Munster which is quiet frankly laughable considering how good he was in the Magners league and in the HC (playing behind a pack that was dominated more often than not)

His form for Ireland wasn't as good but what do you expect of a guy who got his 1st cap 2 months ago. He was very good against Italy and although he didn't shine in the quarter it's unfair to single him out because no-one did

Re your Ferris post. It doesn't take a degree in anatomy to figure out that just because Ferris could be moved to 5 doesn't mean he has to jump in the line-out, plenty of locks don't jump in the line-out. And thats not withstanding the fact that he was jumping at 6 for Ireland this year, meaning jumping couldn't be putting his knee under that much strain.

Conor Murray has never played a single game in the Heineken Cup. I think you need your head checked or reassert how YOU view the game.

He's started against Brive, but Stringer came on around half time and was far better than him.

He played the next game against Quins and wasn't great that day either, and they ended up losing it.

You're inventing good performances from the guy. He's young and has potential, but you don't have to pretend he's great yet when he clearly isn't.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

Fishooks, you've made a number of just completely made up/completely wrong comments recently which makes it very hard to take you seriously. Murray has NEVER played in the HEC. Not for a single minute.

I suppose it was an illusion against Brive so?

I meant more re his form in the magners too and probably should have said Europe instead of HC

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I suppose it was an illusion against Brive so?

....

That was not the Heineken Cup.

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I suppose it was an illusion against Brive so?

Must have been.

Sport101

decisions wrote: »

12 . McFadden

No no no and more no. McFadden is ok backup at 13 and as a winger, but not as 12. Fitz has more chance of making it as a 12 even though he apparently doesn't like it.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

....

That was not the Heineken Cup.

I'm aware of that, I thought you were saying he never played in Europe before I realised I'd written HC instead of Europe

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm aware of that, I thought you were saying he never played in Europe before I realised I'd written HC instead of Europe

You also said he played in the HC behind a pack that was dominated more often than not. I suppose that was a slip of the keyboard too.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

You also said he played in the HC behind a pack that was dominated more often than not. I suppose that was a slip of the keyboard too.

Smart man

Must give you a big ego boost pointing out other people's internet errors

leonard7

Don't worry boys, word on the street is Ulster have some young talent coming through so we can hook you up with a couple of players in a few years time

decisions

Sport101 wrote: »

No no no and more no. McFadden is ok backup at 13 and as a winger, but not as 12. Fitz has more chance of making it as a 12 even though he apparently doesn't like it.

I do kind of agree with you in that one after seeing Luke at 12 for Leinster but we should start trying things, finding peoples best positions and experimenting a little. If it turns out that McFadden is just another Paddy W, then so be it. But he should be given the chance.

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Smart man

Must give you a big ego boost pointing out other people's internet errors

This is a discussion on rugby. You're talking up Murray yet your memory on him playing is clearly not reliable. That is the point.

Fishooks12

decisions wrote: »

I do kind of agree with you in that one after seeing Luke at 12 for Leinster but we should start trying things, finding peoples best positions and experimenting a little. If it turns out that McFadden is just another Paddy W, then so be it. But he should be given the chance.

Hopefully Fitz can come back to be even better than he was a few years ago, ala Heaslip when he was left out of 07

profitius

I think Murray has a lot to learn but the potential is there. He has the talent and the fact is he made a massive difference to Munster at the end of last season.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

This is a discussion on rugby. You're talking up Murray yet your memory on him playing is clearly not reliable. That is the point.

Yes and I admitted I was wrong, I wasn't even in the country for much of the group stages so maybe I shouldn't have mentioned HEC if I wasn't sure but I still think his magners form is very relevant

Just because I was wrong on one point doesn't mean everything is is thus irrelevant

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

I think Murray has a lot to learn but the potential is there. He has the talent and the fact is he made a massive difference to Munster at the end of last season.

Absolutely. Murray will go back and start for Munster for sure, and hopefully he can improve while he does, as he really should.

I reckon he'll continue starting for Ireland, given that Kidney persisted with TOL. Kidney seems to prefer physicality over actual ability at SH. Reddan/Sexton axis is our best pairing though.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Absolutely. Murray will go back and start for Munster for sure, and hopefully he can improve while he does, as he really should.

I reckon he'll continue starting for Ireland, given that Kidney persisted with TOL. Kidney seems to prefer physicality over actual ability at SH. Reddan/Sexton axis is our best pairing though.

Murray isn't in the same vein as TOL and Boss, granted he does a job with his physicality but he's a better passer than Boss and TOL, although not Reddan yet

For the record I think dropping Reddan after the Australian game was very harsh

Brendan97

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. DOC
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Fitzgerald
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

decisions

TBH with Kidney as coach the team won't change.

Brendan97

decisions wrote: »

TBH with Kidney as coach the team won't change.

With Gaffney gone I expect the backline play to improve considerably

jacothelad

leonard7 wrote: »

Don't worry boys, word on the street is Ulster have some young talent coming through so we can hook you up with a couple of players in a few years time

Sadly playing like drains at the moment. Spence apart. Ulster don't seem to have enough sheer brute force to win the forwards battle at the moment. The good young guys are in the backs. They can't get the ball because the forwards are on the back foot too much.

I typed some comments about what is happening at Ulster but have moved them to the Ulster thread - if I can find it.

danthefan

Brendan97 wrote: »

With Gaffney gone I expect the backline play to improve considerably

Surely that depends on who, if anyone, takes over.

CIARAN_BOYLE

D'arcy, DOC, Cullen and P Wallace are the players I want not to feature in the 22 for the next 6Ns

Players forcing them out would be Luke Fitzgerald, Fergus McFadden, and Nevin Spence pushing for the 12 shirt and Keatley pushing for 3rd choice 10 after Sexton and ROG. Dan Tuohy Donnacha Ryan and Toner should be able to push ahead of DOC and Cullen

ambid

decisions wrote: »

I think we should be sacrificing short term success and instead play the long game, bringing up the younger talent...

Don't think that's going to happen. According to Eddie O'Sullivan, the union give a very clear directive to the coach every year that the six nations rather than the world cup is his priority. The six nations is crucial for matchday and sponsorship revenue so if Ireland are less competitive, then income will be compromised. Evolution rather than dramatic change is most likely I guess.

Sport101 wrote: »

No no no and more no. McFadden is ok backup at 13 and as a winger, but not as 12. Fitz has more chance of making it as a 12 even though he apparently doesn't like it.

I don't understand the objections to McFadden at 12. Joe Schmidt played him there regularly last season, including the Magners final, and converted him from a 13 to a 12. He's hardly ever played winger. I think Schmidt knows a thing ot two about back play.

decisions

danthefan wrote: »

Surely that depends on who, if anyone, takes over.

But we can't get much worse can we.?

jasper11

decisions wrote: »

TBH with Kidney as coach the team won't change.

i think kidney gettin raw deal .did he not suprise us at world cup playin murray in high pressure games in his 2nd cap. he will make the calls i believe to freshen things up.

also is ferris bit small and heavy to be top lock? he be about 7 inches shorter than say richie gray.

decisions

ambid wrote: »

Don't think that's going to happen. According to Eddie O'Sullivan, the union give a very clear directive to the coach every year that the six nations rather than the world cup is his priority. The six nations is crucial for matchday and sponsorship revenue so if Ireland are less competitive, then income will be compromised. Evolution rather than dramatic change is most likely I guess.

I can't see it happening either but it is what I think we should do.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ambid wrote: »

I don't understand the objections to McFadden at 12. Joe Schmidt played him there regularly last season, including the Magners final, and converted him from a 13 to a 12. He's hardly ever played winger. I think Schmidt knows a thing ot two about back play.

I agree with you completly McFadden got about 10 minutes at 13 for Leinster not enough to be able to say on recent form that he is a 13 to be honest

Sport101

ambid wrote: »

I don't understand the objections to McFadden at 12. Joe Schmidt played him there regularly last season, including the Magners final, and converted him from a 13 to a 12. He's hardly ever played winger.

To say he's hardly ever played winger is just wrong. He probably played more games in the Heineken Cup last season at winger than anything else, including both Heineken Cup games vs Claremont. In fact the home game v Claremont I think was his best performance of last season. For a 12 his distribution skills are questionable and he's not big enough to be a bosher type IMO. Decent squad cover type player really.

irishbucsfan

Can't see McFadden at 12 or 13 to be honest. Not creative or strong enough for 12 and O'Malley is ahead of him at 13. Would happily accept I'm wrong if he improves at either though.

(And for the record, Cheika moved McFadden to 12 long before Schmidt did, but I think Fitzgerald would be better there)

shuffol

6Nations begins with Wales at home and France away, I'd wager we'll see more or less the same XV as now in those games with perhaps D'arcy and possibly DOC's places being under threat. Our prospects after those games will decide what type of team gets put out in the remaining fixtures.

6 nations isnt a great competition for blooding new players, the tribal element means that the need to win games is greater as you only play each team once a year unlike the tri nations with its home and away fixtures, As well as that for the likes of Ireland there's generally always something to play for, if not the GS, then the championship and if not that then possibly the triple crown. Theres not that many games where lsoing isnt a huge issue.

Anybody else find it interesting the contrasting post WC moods between Wales and Ireland. Wales are full of optimism about the future after a great tournament and we're looking to reconstruct half the team after a dissapointing tournament.
Wales record, won 4, lost 3. Beat Samoa, Ireland, Namibia, Fiji
Irelands record, won 4, lost 1. Beat Australia, Italy, Russia, USA.
I know the age profile of the teams are different but I dont think the Irish team needs huge changing next season, its more some of the squad players. We just need to bring more younger players into the squad to replace the likes of Buckley, Cullen, Leamy possibly ROG.

danthefan

One other massive thing, hopefully ROG doesn't start for Ireland again. He was absolutely rubbish against Wales, we should have backed Sexton about a year ago but it should be done now.

.ak

Ferris at lock? No. The man has no cartilage in his knee, won't be able for the dirty work a lock needs to manage.

Bowe at 13? Ugh. He gets away with looking half decent there now and again for the Ospreys when they're up against mediocre competition. He's one of the world's best wingers, keep him there.

Murray has bags of potential, naturally gifted and very young.. Does that make him a great scrum half? No, far from it. He is a very average SH based on current form, but the future will change that. 2012 won't be his year imo.

The team I'd pick based on current form and trying to seed new players would be:

15. Kearney
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Darcy (or possibly Fitz seeing how he gets on over the next few months)
11. Trimble
10. Sexton
09. Reddan
08. Heaslip
07. Jennings
06. SOB
05. POC
04. DOC
03. Ross
02. Best
01. Healy

16. Cronin
17. Hagan
18. Toner/Ryan
19. Ferris
20. Murray
21. ROG
22. McFadden



2012 will be all about getting back on the horse and winning some games. Revenue etc., etc. You won't see many new bloods coming through except off the bench.

FYI McFadden played more games at center than winger in the 2010/11 season with Leinster. He's a decent center but needs more game time there before being judged correctly. I'd love to see him get some serious game time in as a 13 with Fitz at 12. But currently at the moment he's just decent squad cover.

.ak

... also I picked Jennings to start because as previously said, a lot of people have judged him off the back of a few scrappy games coming off an injury. When he's on form he plays exceptionally good rugby at 7.

Fishooks12

shuffol wrote: »

6Nations begins with Wales at home and France away, I'd wager we'll see more or less the same XV as now in those games with perhaps D'arcy and possibly DOC's places being under threat. Our prospects after those games will decide what type of team gets put out in the remaining fixtures.

6 nations isnt a great competition for blooding new players, the tribal element means that the need to win games is greater as you only play each team once a year unlike the tri nations with its home and away fixtures, As well as that for the likes of Ireland there's generally always something to play for, if not the GS, then the championship and if not that then possibly the triple crown. Theres not that many games where lsoing isnt a huge issue.

Anybody else find it interesting the contrasting post WC moods between Wales and Ireland. Wales are full of optimism about the future after a great tournament and we're looking to reconstruct half the team after a dissapointing tournament.
Wales record, won 4, lost 3. Beat Samoa, Ireland, Namibia, Fiji
Irelands record, won 4, lost 1. Beat Australia, Italy, Russia, USA.
I know the age profile of the teams are different but I dont think the Irish team needs huge changing next season, its more some of the squad players. We just need to bring more younger players into the squad to replace the likes of Buckley, Cullen, Leamy possibly ROG.

Good post

Everyone seems to be gone very negative over the Irish team lately

If we had taken our chances we could have easily won that game and it's worth a re-watch just to appreciate how with a slightly different game plan we could have been in a semi

I'd agree with loosing the likes of Buckley Leamy and maybe Darcy from the starting 15

Still think we've got a lot to look forward to in terms of having some great players