Motor Tax on Fuel? A bit of a impact study..

commited

I've knocked this together in a few minutes, so corrections on the amount of litres sold for diesel and petrol will be gladly taken. The only data for this I could find was for 2007, so again sorry if it's wrong.

First, some tax receipt figures:

Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Standard in 2008 by Engine CC.
Engine CC Total
not over 1,000 28,572,674
1,001 to 1,100 2,374,754
1,101 to 1,200 34,353,318
1,201 to 1,300 48,518,291
1,301 to 1,400 174,460,779
1,401 to 1,500 24,097,023
1,501 to 1,600 134,598,264
1,601 to 1,700 3,664,703
1,701 to 1,800 69,288,551
1,801 to 1,900 81,163,826
1,901 to 2,000 126,776,918
2,001 to 2,100 511,471
2,101 to 2,200 20,996,326
2,201 to 2,300 6,689,736
2,301 to 2,400 4,406,952
2,401 to 2,500 23,798,235
2,501 to 2,600 2,296,210
2,601 to 2,700 5,553,074
2,701 to 2,800 6,449,561
2,801 to 2,900 1,429,904
2,901 to 3,000 28,491,563
3,001 or more 23,543,955
Total 852,036,088

Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Co2 in 2008 by Band.
Co2 Band Total
A 368,999
B 3,186,985
C 3,435,052
D 1,571,545
E 1,021,219
F 634,512
G 64,064
Total 10,282,376


Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Standard in 2009 by Engine CC.
Engine CC Total
not over 1,000 27,165,763
1,001 to 1,100 2,143,283
1,101 to 1,200 32,042,014
1,201 to 1,300 44,689,520
1,301 to 1,400 169,724,019
1,401 to 1,500 22,949,126
1,501 to 1,600 133,621,526
1,601 to 1,700 3,389,735
1,701 to 1,800 67,142,744
1,801 to 1,900 82,988,447
1,901 to 2,000 127,705,985
2,001 to 2,100 486,124
2,101 to 2,200 20,955,236
2,201 to 2,300 6,827,757
2,301 to 2,400 4,304,336
2,401 to 2,500 22,943,683
2,501 to 2,600 2,267,499
2,601 to 2,700 5,737,108
2,701 to 2,800 6,414,289
2,801 to 2,900 1,142,923
2,901 to 3,000 28,306,956
3,001 or more 22,546,205
Total 835,494,278

Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Co2 in 2009 by Band.
Co2 Band Total
A 1,441,301
B 10,225,842
C 11,250,677
D 6,637,357
E 4,221,404
F 2,643,443
G 530,622
Total 36,950,646


Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Standard in 2010 (Jan to Nov) by Engine CC.
Engine CC Total
not over 1,000 23,681,073
1,001 to 1,100 1,820,372
1,101 to 1,200 27,708,420
1,201 to 1,300 37,998,618
1,301 to 1,400 148,870,577
1,401 to 1,500 20,410,910
1,501 to 1,600 118,302,963
1,601 to 1,700 2,995,620
1,701 to 1,800 59,010,807
1,801 to 1,900 75,925,389
1,901 to 2,000 114,110,049
2,001 to 2,100 406,911
2,101 to 2,200 18,823,184
2,201 to 2,300 6,204,516
2,301 to 2,400 3,732,043
2,401 to 2,500 20,053,896
2,501 to 2,600 1,991,469
2,601 to 2,700 5,015,573
2,701 to 2,800 5,719,893
2,801 to 2,900 804,195
2,901 to 3,000 24,655,550
3,001 or more 19,040,001
Total 737,282,029

Breakdown of Motor Tax Receipts for Vehicles taxed as Private Co2 in 2010 (Jan to Nov) by Band.
Co2 Band Total
A 4,597,285
B 15,996,620
C 14,465,775
D 8,946,758
E 5,222,695
F 3,443,319
G 1,005,550
Total 53,678,002

From what I could see there was approximately 3 billion litres of fuel sold in Ireland in 2007 so lets use a slight increase in that as a benchmark.

For the sake of these sums, I'm going to take 1.05 billion revenue/year for motor tax and 3.5billion litres of fuel sold/year, that would equate to 33c extra per litre on your current fuel bill. What it would mean is the following:

Small family hatch, 10000 miles/yr at 45mpg: €330 "tax"/year

Family saloon, 10000 mls/year @ 30mpg: €500 "tax"/year

Sales rep, 40000mls/year @ 50mpg: €1200 "tax"/year

All in all, it doesn't really effect me as I've always had company cars but my father shells out €1293/year to do about 3-4000 mls/year. The knock on effect would be to encourage more people to use public transport as well as continuing to encourage people to buy more economical, less polluting cars.

Realistically, I think the government would have to structure this so that there was possibly a fixed fee for every car on the road (possibly increase the NCT cost by €50-100 but with same retest fee) and then have a smaller increase per litre. This would hopefully discourage people from crossing the border.

How would your position change, would you be better off personally?

Voodoomelon

I did the same sums a few weeks ago, see here:

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Just did some maths for the "tax on the fuel" suggestion.

Currently we take in €1.03 billion from motor tax.
There are 2.63 million issued driving licenses in this country.

Thats €392 per driver per year.
Lets increase it to €500 a year (recession an' all).

Average mileage per person is 12,000 miles (roughly)
Average MPG is 40MPG. (roughly)

Thats 1365 litres of fuel used per person at a cost of €2050 (at €1.50 a litre).

€2050 + €500 in additional tax is €2550.

€2550 divided by the same 1365 litres is an increase to €1.87 for a litre of fuel, or an increase of 37c a litre.

Advantages:
An increase of €284,000,000 in revenue intake.
100% payment compliance.
A further €52,000,000+ saving on motor tax offices.
A much fairer system, you drive more, you use the roads more, you pollute more, you pay more.
If you only drive a car at the weekends, doing a 3000 miles a year, you only pay €125 in tax. If you drive 24,000 miles a year, you pay €1000 in tax.
Further motor tax intake can be achieved from charging haulage companies a flat rate per vehicle.
You can own several cars without worrying about keeping them in tax.
Increased revenue from tourists, foreign nationals and other non-irish vehicles.

Disadvantages:
Motor tax workers loose their jobs. Perhaps they can be re-allocated to other departments? 800 motor tax workers would cost €7.9 million in dole payments per year.

Haulage companies would have a fit. This can be resolved by charging a fixed rate per vehicle and allowing them to offset the fuel cost increase against their tax returns.

There would be rampant crossings of the border to avail of cheaper fuel. As of August 2011, the average price of diesel/petrol in Northern Ireland is €1.65 a litre. Filling a standard 60 litre tank would save €13.20 a fill over southern €1.87 a litre prices. So there would definitely be an incentive there to fill up across the border.
However the limit of that saving would be how far you can travel from your home to cross the border and travel back on €13.20, just to break even. Only border counties would benefit from this, and even then it saves the motorist maybe €5-€10 every two weeks. Worth the hassle of driving 10-30 miles just to fill up?

No reply from Dept of transport btw.

commited

Interesting that your alternative take on the sums came up with a similar figure! Sort of cements the fact that it would be a fairer system. I was going for the revenue neutral approach which I think would be the only way to make it work for the public.

I think something would have to be worked out for haulage companies as you've said as it's already pretty tough out there.

jimmycrackcorm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

No reply from Dept of transport btw.

Try the IFA and other rural lobbies first and let us know how you get on.

Voodoomelon

commited wrote: »

Interesting that your alternative take on the sums came up with a similar figure! Sort of cements the fact that it would be a fairer system. I was going for the revenue neutral approach which I think would be the only way to make it work for the public.

I think something would have to be worked out for haulage companies as you've said as it's already pretty tough out there.

In fairness it's not rocket science. The bigger the figures get, the easier the sums are. There are a lot of similarities alright, but we are making a lot of assumptions (in fairness they are assumptions on the conservative side). But it wrecks my head, what absolutely and completely frustrates me is that no sensible logic can ever prevail in the Irish motor tax system. You can scream and shout all you like, they'll still introduce some non-linear, slightly increased bullshít sytem that makes no sense as a solution.

Seth Brundle

It would apply the polluter pays principle whilst also making it easier to collect the tax and at the same time removing motor tax dodgers (but on the flip side, there could be more diesel laundering as a result).
There would also be a knock on effect on goods due to higher delivery costs.
However, if fuel were to increase by such an amount, IMO many people would reconsider their usage by choosing an alternative means of transport. The tax on ownership will apply regardless so for this reason, I can't see revenue changing from the current method.

challengemaster

kbannon wrote: »

It would apply the polluter pays principle whilst also making it easier to collect the tax and at the same time removing motor tax dodgers (but on the flip side, there could be more diesel laundering as a result).
There would also be a knock on effect on goods due to higher delivery costs.
However, if fuel were to increase by such an amount, IMO many people would reconsider their usage by choosing an alternative means of transport. The tax on ownership will apply regardless so for this reason, I can't see revenue changing from the current method.

To what? Bus service in Ireland is shíte and certainly not inexpensive. Even Dublin Bus is crap by international standards. There are some exceptions (like citylink galway- dublin for €10) but they don't go everywhere...

Trains for a full price adult ticket, you could be talking €50-80, and for what?

Cycling isn't an option for everyone either.

It's not true for everyone, but for a lot of people, a car is a necessity and is cheaper than most other forms of transport.

Voodoomelon

I think at the very, very least, motor tax would break even. If more people hop on public transport, all the better. I have no problem paying a premium for driving my car, let alone an above average engine sized car. Even if my circumstances changed and I had to commute 60 miles to Dublin every day, i'd take the bus and drive at the weekends, it still works out way fairer.

Again, offset the cost of the fuel for businesses to reduce courier etc costs. I'm sure there's much easier/more clever way of doing it that reducing VAT returns, i'm not an accountant, but I'm sure it could easily be done.

IMHO, the key here is fairness, nothing else. But it also has the benefit of increased revenue.

Seth Brundle

challengemaster wrote: »

To what? Bus service in Ireland is shíte and certainly not inexpensive. Even Dublin Bus is crap by international standards. There are some exceptions (like citylink galway- dublin for €10) but they don't go everywhere...

Trains for a full price adult ticket, you could be talking €50-80, and for what?

Cycling isn't an option for everyone either.

It's not true for everyone, but for a lot of people, a car is a necessity and is cheaper than most other forms of transport.

I didn't say everyone - I used the word "many".
Many commuters in urban areas (where the majority of cars would be located) would switch to either public transport or car pooling or something should fuel rapidly rise towards €2 per litre. I'm aware of the non existence of public transport in rural areas (I spent a number of years living in the middle of nowhere) but car pooling should be an option for some.

Voodoomelon

^^ Absolutely, many people are borderline as it is regarding motor tax, if it went up more than 30c a litre (considering many people don't bother paying tax as it is), lots of drivers would certainly ditch the car. In fairness, what place in urban society does the car have? (as much as it pains me to say it). Public transport is pretty poor in most areas, maybe it would give the government a kick up the hole regarding services.

commited

commited wrote: »

.............What it would mean is the following:

Small family hatch, 10000 miles/yr at 45mpg: €330 "tax"/year

Family saloon, 10000 mls/year @ 30mpg: €500 "tax"/year

Sales rep, 40000mls/year @ 50mpg: €1200 "tax"/year

.................

Realistically, I think the government would have to structure this so that there was possibly a fixed fee for every car on the road (possibly increase the NCT cost by €50-100 but with same retest fee) and then have a smaller increase per litre. This would hopefully discourage people from crossing the border..........

'twould be hunky dorey if the Co2 tax rated hadn't been increased, plenty of folk doing 10,000/20,000 miles a year in 2008 yokes getting 50mpg paying €150 ish in motor tax, they'd be paying €300 to €600 under your proposed regime along with whatever the fixed charge would be, potentially a 4/5 fold increase after shelling out on a newish car recently, not a hope the government would bring that in really.

You'd have the public servants up in arms too because of the motor tax folk losing their jobs, no doubt humongous redundancy payments, issues with the actual motor tax offices then, what to do with the things etc etc.

Businesses going ape over it if they have a decent load of folk on the road, rise in inflation warnings etc etc etc.

Total non runner really in our little chaotic, debt ridden Republic.

Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

'twould be hunky dorey if the Co2 tax rated hadn't been increased, plenty of folk doing 10,000/20,000 miles a year in 2008 yokes getting 50mpg paying €150 ish in motor tax, they'd be paying €300 to €600 under your proposed regime along with whatever the fixed charge would be, potentially a 4/5 fold increase after shelling out on a newish car recently, not a hope the government would bring that in really.

You'd have the public servants up in arms too because of the motor tax folk losing their jobs, no doubt humongous redundancy payments, issues with the actual motor tax offices then, what to do with the things etc etc.

Businesses going ape over it if they have a decent load of folk on the road, rise in inflation warnings etc etc etc.

Total non runner really in our little chaotic, debt ridden Republic.

Yet everything there is resolvable.

New car owners, who cares? The whole " buy a new car, get cheaper tax" was introduced 3 years ago, it's run its course. Yes people will be "up in arms" for a week or two but they'll accept it like we all accept everything else. It's fair. Not to them, but to the population as a whole. To say they only bought the car because of the tax would make them look like the fools that they are (in that tax is a minor cost of the ownership of the car).

Public sector jobs, yes, lots of redundancy, dole payments etc. However do they amount over a quarter of a billion a year as per the figures above? No where near. And that's under the assumption that these people cannot be re-allocated somewhere else.

Business could be re compensated in may ways as mentioned above.

But I see your underlying point, a few obstacles make pretty much anything unworkable for any Irish government. Why oh why cannot we pioneer a new system for once in our lives?

Voodoomelon

Voodoomelon wrote: »

.............

But I see your underlying point, a few obstacles make pretty much anything unworkable for any Irish government. Why oh why cannot we pioneer a new system for once in our lives?

Most definitely, my views on it
- folks who have post 08 cars that it will effect negatively, tough sh1t.
- the motor tax office staff, much like any other job, if the company goes out of business then you get your walking papers, no more motor tax no need for the staff, 4 weeks wages per years service or whatever and bye bye.
- businesses, new sections on the VAT return sheet (won't be VAT but best place for it really), "amount of litres of fuel purchased" and "number and type of vehicle", whatever the increase on fuel per litre will be known so they can make it neutral to businesses. All fuel invoices to be kept as with all other receipts where folk claim the VAT.
- taxi and hackney drivers pass it on to their fares.

Diesel laundering can be tackled if there is a genuine will to do so, for whatever reason there isn't at the moment, I won't air my views on that one.

Cross border trips to fuel up I can't think of a solution to that to be honest, if someone gave me €200,000 I'd come up with some ideas.

Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

Diesel laundering can be tackled if there is a genuine will to do so, for whatever reason there isn't at the moment, I won't air my views on that one.

This one is baffling me at the moment, is it the law thats holding the customs lads back?

RoverJames wrote: »

Cross border trips to fuel up I can't think of a solution to that to be honest, if someone gave me €200,000 I'd come up with some ideas.

Voodoomelon

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This one is baffling me at the moment, is it the law thats holding the customs lads back?

It's baffling if you consider that we live in a very organised society with laws and regulations etc, considering that all purchases should and do leave a very auditable paper trail it is indeed baffling how the laundering is going on at all.

But then, this is Ireland, gombeen Republic, don't pay your TV license and they'll be at your door in record time....

Voodoomelon

How some chap selling diesel from a make-shift station isn't dodgy I'll never know. On that note, these things don't bother me enough to keep me awake, to bed!

Henry Ford III

What's really driving this "road tax on fuel" suggestion?

Is it coming from some kind of feeling of inequity in the existing system, or is it driven by owners of relatively high tax vehicles who just want a few quid off their motoring costs?

I'd suggest it's the latter. They've bought vehicles with full knowledge of their high tax, seen the values of these plummet as the new system came in, and are now only too happy to suggest that owners of newer cleaner cars who have spent good money upgrading be disadvantaged to even the playing field. "Tough sh1t" indeed.

The only issue here is petty jealousy I reckon.

vetstu

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This one is baffling me at the moment, is it the law thats holding the customs lads back?

From talking to people in the 'business' it involves brown envelopes. Its the only way they could keep doing it.

commited

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What's really driving this "road tax on fuel" suggestion?

Is it coming from some kind of feeling of inequity in the existing system, or is it driven by owners of relatively high tax vehicles who just want a few quid off their motoring costs?

I'd suggest it's the latter. They've bought vehicles with full knowledge of their high tax, seen the values of these plummet as the new system came in, and are now only too happy to suggest that owners of newer cleaner cars who have spent good money upgrading be disadvantaged to even the playing field. "Tough sh1t" indeed.

The only issue here is petty jealousy I reckon.

I ran a 3.0 car myself and had no problem paying the tax when I had a company car as well. I was fully aware of the tax cost. However, why should a 3.2 litre car cost more than double to tax over a 2.0, it's a completely unbalanced system as it is.

The fairest way to do it is to tax fuel as the more you drive/use/pollute, the more you pay. At the moment, a motorist is penalised for wanting a car that isn't underpowered.

Eleganza

commited wrote: »

For the sake of these sums, I'm going to take 1.05 billion revenue/year for motor tax and 3.5billion litres of fuel sold/year

unsafe assumption.
at only 700 million up to August for motor tax the extra 305 million will not arrive before end of year.
Diesel and Petrol consumption have been dropping steadily since 2008
http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_dl_ov.pdf
http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_gs_ov.pdf

The country is winding down.

Henry Ford III

commited wrote: »

I ran a 3.0 car myself and had no problem paying the tax when I had a company car as well. I was fully aware of the tax cost. However, why should a 3.2 litre car cost more than double to tax over a 2.0, it's a completely unbalanced system as it is.

The fairest way to do it is to tax fuel as the more you drive/use/pollute, the more you pay. At the moment, a motorist is penalised for wanting a car that isn't underpowered.

Tax isn't always fair. That's just the way of things.

PaulKK

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What's really driving this "road tax on fuel" suggestion?

Is it coming from some kind of feeling of inequity in the existing system, or is it driven by owners of relatively high tax vehicles who just want a few quid off their motoring costs?

I'd suggest it's the latter. They've bought vehicles with full knowledge of their high tax, seen the values of these plummet as the new system came in, and are now only too happy to suggest that owners of newer cleaner cars who have spent good money upgrading be disadvantaged to even the playing field. "Tough sh1t" indeed.

The only issue here is petty jealousy I reckon.

Totally agree henry. Although I do think we need to modify the system a bit. Too many large engined cars just left to rot after a few years because the tax is too high. I think we should keep our tax bands, but the highest should be 3 or 4 hundred for the top band. Then put say 10c max on the fuel. That way everyone pays a little bit of tax, but the polluter pays after that.

Anan1

challengemaster wrote: »

It's not true for everyone, but for a lot of people, a car is a necessity and is cheaper than most other forms of transport.

That's true now, but I think the long-term idea is that it not be. The more the cost of driving rises, the more attractive it becomes to live somewhere where it's not/less necessary. Look at all those people who bought property as far afield as Portlaoise with the intention of commuting daily to Dublin - that kind of craziness would have seemed a lot less attractive had car usage costs been higher. Reducing our dependence on cars is going to take years, but we have to start somewhere.

Voodoomelon

I won't deny i'd benefit from a fuel-based tax. But to answer your question, it's about fairness. To say tax is never fair and that's the end of it is bs.

Take income tax, those with higher incomes pay more tax. Thats fair. Paying 5, 6, 7 times more motor for driving a larger engined, older car makes no sense and is not fair. Their current logic stems from the fact that brand new cars emit fresh air and do no damage to the road/environment, when in fact there is little difference in emissions and also the fact that you are keeping an older car on the road for longer, which is ultimately better for everyone.

Of course you're not going to get people with brand new low tax cars to suggest a system like this, the current system is scewed massively in their favour and they know well its not fair. And i'd be the same, who wants to pay more than they have to, but its about fairness. Larger engined cars do no equate to wealthier owners, only in the first year or two. Why we are being raped for having worthless 5-15 year old cars I don't understand.

CiniO

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Take income tax, those with higher incomes pay more tax. Thats fair.

Sorry but I don't agree it's fair.
System works like that:
- If you earn 10 coins, I won't take any off you.
- If you earn 20 coins, I'll take 2 off you.
- If you earn 30 coins, I'll take 8 off you.
- If you earn 100 coins, I'll take 40 off you.

Do you think that's fair?

CiniO

After little calculation, proposed change in motor tax wouldn't be of any benefit for me.
I would end up worse.

Voodoomelon

CiniO wrote: »

Sorry but I don't agree it's fair.
System works like that:
- If you earn 10 coins, I won't take any off you.
- If you earn 20 coins, I'll take 2 off you.
- If you earn 30 coins, I'll take 8 off you.
- If you earn 100 coins, I'll take 40 off you.

Do you think that's fair?

Its not pleasant, but its not unfair. There's an element of logic to it. With the two motor tax systems we have, there's no balance at all.

Henry Ford III

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I won't deny i'd benefit from a fuel-based tax. But to answer your question, it's about fairness. To say tax is never fair and that's the end of it is bs....

Like it or not it's just the way it is.

On income tax is it fair that income derived from patent royalties, certain artistic works, or stallion nominations should be tax free? I don't think it is, but that's how the system works.

Going back to motors take a good example - a BMW 520d. Under the old cc system it was treated identically to say a Mitsubishi Evo. The C02 based system gives newer 520d's a much lower annual road tax liability, and also means newer Evo sales have all but ceased.

The thing is though that to take advantage of the new lower C02 rates it is necessary to buy a newer car, and incur VAT and VRT along the way.

So drivers of the new lower tax vehicles have actually paid plenty for the privilege.

So your choice is either pay up higher annual road tax on the older vehicles, and take advantage of the lower purchase prices, or upgrade and cough up upfront.

Don't expect the old system rates to reduce, because they won't I reckon. The new system rates will creep up though imho.

Henry Ford III

I wouldn't benefit from the system based on the figures suggested, to think that someone who has the means to run a large petrol engined car as their daily driver is actually jealous of someone driving a low tax post 08 car is retarded in the extreme.

Doing 15,000 miles in a 25mpg car that is depreciation free costs the same as doing the same miles in a 45mpg one suffering €4000/annum depreciation.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What's really driving this "road tax on fuel" suggestion?............
I'd suggest it's the latter. They've bought vehicles with full knowledge of their high tax, seen the values of these plummet as the new system came in, and are now only too happy to suggest that owners of newer cleaner cars who have spent good money upgrading be disadvantaged to even the playing field. "Tough sh1t" indeed.

The only issue here is petty jealousy I reckon.

The OP has a company car so he obviously isn't a candidate for the petty jealousy you are suggesting.

Tax the usage, it's the logical, common sense approach, the f**ktards won't see the light though.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

After little calculation, proposed change in motor tax wouldn't be of any benefit for me.
I would end up worse.

Classic example.

It's nothing to do with equity or burden sharing. It's human nature to worry about yourself first, and have an element of jealousy about anyone who is doing better (paying less) than you are.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

.............

.................

The thing is though that to take advantage of the new lower C02 rates it is necessary to buy a newer car, and incur VAT and VRT along the way.

So drivers of the new lower tax vehicles have actually paid plenty for the privilege.

So your choice is either pay up higher annual road tax on the older vehicles, and take advantage of the lower purchase prices, or upgrade and cough up upfront...........

But using the tax isn't fair logic why not load up the Co2 rates system to get some extra revenue in? So what if people have shelled out paying VAT and VRT?

CiniO

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Its not pleasant, but its not unfair. There's an element of logic to it. With the two motor tax systems we have, there's no balance at all.

Element of logic you were saying, is that we should take more from those who have more. But straight linear tax would be way more fair.
SHould be something like - no matter how much you earn, we take 20% off you. That's it.

In relation to motor tax, I agree there is no logic with it at the moment.

Henry Ford III

RoverJames wrote: »

I wouldn't benefit from the system based on the figures suggested, to think that someone who has the means to run a large petrol engined car as their daily driver is actually jealous of someone driving a low tax post 08 car is retarded in the extreme.

Doing 15,000 miles in a 25mpg car that is depreciation free costs the same as doing the same miles in a 45mpg one suffering €4000/annum depreciation.

The OP has a company car so he obviously isn't a candidate for the petty jealousy you are suggesting.

Tax the usage, it's the logical, common sense approach, the f**ktards won't see the light though.

Are you actually capable of posting a reply without being abusive RJ?

If you can manage that I might even reply to it.

Henry Ford III

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you actually capable of posting a reply without being abusive RJ?

If you can manage that I might even reply to it.

Unless you are a TD in labour or FG I can't see how you could interpret that as being abusive.

I didn't take offence at the petty jealousy jibe from yourself which was in reply to my "tough sh1t" comment.

Given your reasoning that the motivation behind a tax based on car usage rather than Co2 rates being petty jealousy I'm not overly interested in your replies to be quite frank so withhold them as you please.

subway

I drive a 5 litre v8 and I think the proposal is just looking out for number 1.

_Kaiser_

commited wrote: »

Sales rep, 40000mls/year @ 50mpg: €1200 "tax"/year

All in all, it doesn't really effect me as I've always had company cars

I'm assuming this "tax" is in addition to the cost of the fuel right? If not then ignore the following rant

What happens then if I'm not a "sales rep" and don't have a "company car" that the costs are paid for, but I DO need to commute to work everyday because the only job I could get after being laid off from my (much nearer) job is now 100km (each way) away?

Think I agree with the other poster who said this smacks of people who want to run big-engined luxobarges or sports cars at the weekend and make everyone else pay for it!

I've no objection to anyone having a nice/big car but it seems that the Oirish way is that "someone else" should foot the bill (NAMA 2 for Mortgage holders springs to mind too).

I already pay more than enough to tax, fuel and service the car (as it's an "older" 06 model and I can't afford to buy a new one) so thanks but no thanks!

Kaiser2000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm assuming this "tax" is in addition to the cost of the fuel right? If not then ignore the following rant ............

It is proposed that the "tax" will actually be on the fuel, so you'll end up paying more for fuel than you do at the moment, there won't be a motor tax than. So the €1200 for the 40,000miles, 50mpg chap will be instead of whatever they currently pay on motor tax, and then there will be the fixed charge per car too.

It's only boards dude, it won't be happening

C4Kid

The current motor tax situation is unfair imo and theres nothing more I can add that hasnt been posted already as to why that's the case but it's as clear as day.

ottostreet

I already pay too much. Keep it the way it is. It's a crap system, but any changes will only end up being added on, rather than a change.

galwaytt

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What's really driving this "road tax on fuel" suggestion?

Is it coming from some kind of feeling of inequity in the existing system, or is it driven by owners of relatively high tax vehicles who just want a few quid off their motoring costs?

I'd suggest it's the latter. They've bought vehicles with full knowledge of their high tax, seen the values of these plummet as the new system came in, and are now only too happy to suggest that owners of newer cleaner cars who have spent good money upgrading be disadvantaged to even the playing field. "Tough sh1t" indeed.

The only issue here is petty jealousy I reckon.

Actually, no. I bought an (old 3.0), when the playing field was (I won't say 'even', but let's say.....) 'known'.

And yes, now that we know the whole Green Party in govt was a complete fraud, those people do need hauling back to reality - do remember, they are still in the minority of the (motoring) population. So why should the minority 'rule' ?

The word you're looking for is not petty jealousy - it's called (social) justice.

Two months later, John Gormley then gave me a kick in the balls, and my neighbour a 'thank you' by allowing him to buy a new car, for peanut VRT and then allowing him to tax his BMW for €156, whereas previous it had been €600-odd.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Tax isn't always fair. That's just the way of things.

This is more than about tax. It's about society, and allowing the 'haves' to have more, for less, and the 'not-so-haves' to subsidise them. If that was to happen in income tax or some other tax, there'd be riot's. But because it's 'car' tax, it's somehow ok ? Nope. Not buying it. Around here, a car is as vital a component of everyday life as water or electricity........

Chimaera

A few thoughts on this:

The employees of the motor tax offices would not be out of a job: there are still driving licences, PSV licences, registration, etc to deal with. Reduced workload, so a few would have to go, but the unions would fight to the end to create more bureacracy to keep them employed.

I'd love to see the CO2 system applied to all cars, not just ones registered since 2008. I have a personal interest in seeing this happen since I drive an older diesel car. Many would benefit from this change though and it would encourage all car buyers, regardless of budget, to go for more efficient cars.

The current system is driving people to buy new cars, with all the emissions associated with the construction of the new vehicle, and the disposal of an old vehicle at the end of its life somewhere along the ownership chain. It's something very often forgotten that there are big emissions costs associated with a car before it ever turns a wheel, and the longer a vehicle stays running the better for the environment in this regard.

To those who argue that modern manufacturing is cleaner than of days past, that may be, but there's far more stuff in a modern car to be made.

This would also move to make owners of much older big engined cars liable for more tax.

I've got other thoughts, but it's late and I can't organise them coherently

commited

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The thing is though that to take advantage of the new lower C02 rates it is necessary to buy a newer car, and incur VAT and VRT along the way.

So drivers of the new lower tax vehicles have actually paid plenty for the privilege.

What about all of those people who bought a brand new low emissions car in late 07 and the value took a massive hit as soon as the 08 CO2 tax rule announcement was made?

They paid more VRT & VAT, and now pay more road tax per year and they emit the same CO2 as their 08 counterpart but with a much heftier yearly bill? I'd be pretty sickened if that had been me...

All in all, I just put the figures up to see how many people would be better off or worse off out of interest.

OT a small bit but the mentality over here for years was that people bought whatever 1/1.4/1.6 car that fitted their needs size wise whereas the UK actually bought the engine that best suited the cars needs (i.e. far more 1.6 Focus's there than 1.4's). Nowadays people are rushing out to drop 20-40k on a band A or B diesel that does the most amount of MPGz for their 10000kms/year without thinking about the whole life cost of the vehicle. I find it pretty painful in a time when people are broke and there are 100s of good, economical but "hard to tax" cars out there. The current system also massively promotes tax avoidance, especially considering the fine is only 60euro.

Chimaera

Chimaera wrote: »

......................

I'd love to see the CO2 system applied to all cars, not just ones registered since 2008. I have a personal interest in seeing this happen since I drive an older diesel car. ...............

I think you might be surprised at the band in which your older diesel falls into.
It won't happen anyway.

200motels

As car owners we pay too much tax as it is, and what do we get for it F... All we get, most of the roads are crap unless you live in Dublin.

Chimaera

RoverJames wrote: »

I think you might be surprised at the band in which your older diesel falls into.
It won't happen anyway.

I can't recall exactly what the figure is, but when I checked the official figure from the owner's manual it put me in the €300 a year band, which is a useful drop from the current €582.

Means Of Escape

The Government will do both . They will continue to raise motor tax AND petrol/ diesel and noone will be able to do **** about it.
In their eyes it's an easy target for a government buckled by debt.
They don't give a rats ass about who drives what or where.
They need the money and already screwed taxpayer who needs a car will get it up the wazoo yet again.

CiniO

200motels wrote: »

As car owners we pay too much tax as it is, and what do we get for it F... All we get, most of the roads are crap unless you live in Dublin.

And if you actually do live in Dublin, you are jammed for life in traffic on those nice roads there ;P

Chuck_Norris

My two cents here.

As always, the motoring section of society will be right royally ridden in the next budget. Tax rates will go up for both systems, be it fair or otherwise.

Petrol will rise, as will diesel (but probably by not the same amount). And as a result, everything will become more expensive.

As regards having no car tax, but basing it on usage, can't ever see it happening here. It's far too logical a suggestion to ever gain any traction in our dear, inequitable little republic.

The fact it wasn't introduced by The Greens shows them up for the chancers they were. If they were that concerned by emissions, or the greater the polluter, the higher the tax burden, it was the perfect system to introduce.

If it were to be introduced , I'd be no better or worse off than I am now, so I've no vested interest.

O/T for a sec, but the country is totally funked, and they'll grab as much tax as is humanly possible, knowing that absolutely nothing will be done about it. Having a car is pretty much essential in Rural Ireland ( and I include major cities ie: Cork, Limerick, Galway etc), and is almost as essential in Dublin. Public transport is deplorable country wide, and services are being curtailed left right and centre, so, as said, motorists will be right royally ridden in the next, and all upcoming budgets.

It's so disheartening, frustrating, depressing to see the "ruling classes" who are so far removed from reality, making decisions that will never effect them that are completely destroying what little is left of society.

I could go on, but I'm going so far off topic here, I'm heading for a ban

Rant over (for now)!

Voodoomelon

Chuck_Norris wrote: »

O/T for a sec, but the country is totally funked, and they'll grab as much tax as is humanly possible, knowing that absolutely nothing will be done about it. Having a car is pretty much essential in Rural Ireland ( and I include major cities ie: Cork, Limerick, Galway etc), and is almost as essential in Dublin. Public transport is deplorable country wide, and services are being curtailed left right and centre, so, as said, motorists will be right royally ridden in the next, and all upcoming budgets.

But there has to be a cut-off point where the government actually make things worse, considering the recession. There's already bucket loads of people not paying motor tax, its at the bottom of most peoples lists. Increasing fuel and motor tax costs further will probably keep income pretty much the same, as more people drive less and pay their tax less.

A tax on the fuel and banishment of all motor tax will increase intake hugely, it actually makes financial sense, not to mention a fairer more balance system.

Chuck_Norris

Voodoomelon wrote: »

But there has to be a cut-off point where the government actually make things worse, considering the recession. There's already bucket loads of people not paying motor tax, its at the bottom of most peoples lists. Increasing fuel and motor tax costs further will probably keep income pretty much the same, as more people drive less and pay their tax less.

A tax on the fuel and banishment of all motor tax will increase intake hugely, it actually makes financial sense, not to mention a fairer more balance system.

I agree completely with you Voodoo. But that unfortunately is where the disconnect becomes even more of a problem. And the government aren't the only problem here.

All the big decisions are made by the government, and top tiers of their various departments. These people are making colossal amounts of money in both wages and expenses (mainly unvouched), so therefore aren't affected by these decisions.

They don't see/ care about the fact that motor tax evasion is rampant at the moment, and that by extension they're losing out on revenue. They'll just follow the same old track of increasing it, in the hope of counterbalancing the losses. Not thinking that increasing it, may push more people into evasion.

I hate to use the phrase, but it times for some "thinking outside the box" from our public servants. But unfortunately, I have absolutely no confidence in those who we have elected to serve us, or those who have risen through the ranks to positions a power either.

positron

I would be curious to know if there's any other European countries out there that has implemented 'motor tax on fuel rather than vrt' policy. Ireland trails many EU countries on many things anyway, so we might as well take advantage of the precedence, if there's any.