There is more judo in BJJ than in judo!

Killme00

Judo is an amazing martial art but the rules are killing it.
I've spent the last few days (banned :P) reading EFN and found this interesting discussion about the sanisation of Judo.. http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=14466.0

Interesting Aricle from Planet Judo.

"My colleague Steve Scott, recently wrote in his newsletter, “As an interesting sidelight to how history repeats itself, a variety of these techniques are used in various forms of submission grappling and mixed martial arts, although they continue to be illegal in judo competition.” He was talking about various forms of shime waza or constricting techniques, not necessarily neck chokes. Not very long ago, one of my readers commented, “Please correct me if I’m wrong; wrestling, Brazilian jiujitsu, and competitive sambo will allow all Judo throws of the Kodokan in competition. With the IJF rules, Judo does not. This is a disgrace.” I couldn’t agree more.


Think about this for one moment. There may be more Judo in Brazilian jiujistu, sambo, and submission wrestling than there remains in IJF Judo. Although only a small portion of the judoplaying masses competes, most Judo instruction is based on what the IJF rules allow. So what we are left with is a very diluted version of the Judo curriculum. I’ll admit the IJF is not the only organization to blame for this. Little by little over the years, the Kodokan banned things left and right, often under the guise of making Judo safer, before the IJF even came into the picture.

For many of us, the history of the development of Judo rules elicits the same response many Americans utter when they actually read the Constitution of the United States: “I didn’t know that!” A few of us want to know what criteria were used to make the prohibited acts list. Safety is often used to forbid certain techniques, but as you will see, many of the banned techniques are no more dangerous than legal ones. So, let’s take a look at some of the more curious items in Article 26, Prohibited Acts and Penalties of the IJF rules.

Even if I’m attacking and not being defensive, I can’t “screw up” the sleeve, pistol grip it, pocket grip it, or put fingers inside the opponent’s sleeve end. But I can do that to my own sleeve. The same applies to grabbing inside the bottom of pants. It’s OK to do it to my pants, but not to my opponent’s. Seems to me that we should all be able to attack and defend from any and all grips, and use the gi as a weapon. If safety is the reason for some of these rules, then we should be responsible to decide for ourselves whether to use these grips or not.

I can bear hug my opponent from behind and from the side, but not from the front. Huh? The IJF wants us to believe this is not Judo, because the grip is “abnormal,” but just when you are in front. Get that?

I can put my hand in uke’s belt to escape from let’s say Kesa gatame, but can’t put my foot there. Why not?

I can use uke’s jacket to choke him, but I’ll be penalized if I use my jacket to do the same thing. Why?

I can figure-four (Sankaku) my opponent’s neck or trunk, but I can’t scissor (Dojime) them by stretching out my legs. This is the type of shime waza Steve Scott was alluding to.

I can encircle my opponent’s body with his belt or gi if less than 360 degrees, but if I go to 361 degrees, it’s not OK. What dangerous event occurred with that additional few degrees of encirclement?

I can’t lift my opponent off the mat from ne waza (Daki age) and drive him back onto the mat. However, if I am standing, can grab uke’s leg legally, then do O uchi gari to his supporting leg, then it’s OK even though both of us would more or less be in the same position as in the Daki age situation. By the way, if uke jumps onto me from the front (pulling guard) for some silly reason, I can slam him to the mat. Now I’m totally confused as to why Daki age is a no-no.

I can’t reap uke’s supporting leg from the inside while he is attempting to do Harai goshi, but apparently I can reap his leg (Ko soto) from the outside. What’s the difference? Same potential to hyperextend the leg.

I can’t fall backwards when uke is on my back, either from a Tachi waza or Ne waza position, but I can fall to the side or even do a forward roll. Say what?

These are just some of the silliest examples of what’s illegal in Judo today. I think it’s safe to say that Judo Ne waza would be strengthened if we removed all the above listed rules that pertain to ground grappling. And Judo would still remain a safe activity.

Judo would be more effective if we removed all of the gripping rules. Effectiveness should take precedence over how pretty Judo looks.

The pendulum has swung too far to the safety and aesthetics side. These rules are sanitizing Judo into irrelevance. It’s time to stop being so protective of judoplayers, and return to our martial roots. How can we continue to prohibit so many combative techniques while Brazilian jiujitsu, sambo, and submission wrestling embrace these same techniques? Can you see the logic of that? I can’t."

Jon

lukeyjudo

Killme00 wrote: »

Judo is an amazing martial art but the rules are killing it.
I've spent the last few days (banned :P) reading EFN and found this interesting discussion about the sanisation of Judo.. http://www.efnsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=14466.0

There's more Judo in BJJ than in judo - I've been saying that for a while now! Really hope they make leg grabs and pick ups legal again but I doubt they will...

Doug Cartel

A few of those things are just as illegal in BJJ competition as in judo. (Guard slamming, putting your fingers inside someone's sleeves.)

Other things like dojime (that's trying to get a tap by squeezing someone in your guard) are just plain stupid and I don't really care that they're banned.

I didn't know reaping the supporting leg from the inside as a counter to harai goshi was specifically illegal, but it sounds like a good way of planting someone on their face really hard - and that's illegal for a good reason.

I use non-standard grips like the Georgian grip and the Russian 2 on 1 all the time, and I've only been been penalised once for it. They're perfectly legal as long as you use them to attack and not as a stalling tactic. The one time I did get called on it, I was grabbing on to a guy's belt for dear life trying to prevent him from throwing me.

I hate the leg grab rule though. I hope they get rid of it eventually. You know there's some thing wrong with a rule when it gets that hard to explain.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I hate the leg grab rule though. I hope they get rid of it eventually. You know there's some thing wrong with a rule when it gets that hard to explain.

Of that whole article this is the only area I have a problem with really.

No one I know likes the fact that leg grabs have been made so complicated, leg grabs themselves aren't illegal, I'll refrain from using Japanese/Judo names, but if I initiate with (for example) an inside foot sweep and my opponent lifts his leg to defend/avoid my sweep I can grab his leg.

If my opponent attacks with a hip throw I can grab his/her leg.

What I can not do is immediately go for a single or double leg grab - I hate this and everyone I know hates this, Judo forum's are alive with double/single leg grab chatter.

Falling backwards if your opponent is on your back, you can and its used regularly too.. If I do a drop seoi nage (shoulder throw were I drop to my knee's in an attempt to forward role my oppoent) and my opponent doesn't fall to my front I'm allowed reach back, reap a leg and throw my opponent (uke) to their back.

A bear hug from the front is banned - good, its an attack on your spine. If I was doing BJJ and placed my fists under my opponents back and rolled them over onto it its illegal (I don't know if I described that properly).

Grips on the inside cuff's and pistol grips are IMO overly defensive, doesn't bother me that I can't do them - are they legal in BJJ?.

The title is wrong, it should really read you can use more Judo in BJJ than in judo - but only if you know judo!

I've seen hip throws shown to BJJ and MMA classes by BJJ coaches, and in more than one or two clubs... "all you do is this (and the instructor shows the throw and student falls over his hip) ... And everyone thinks 'jeeze Judo is simple'.. But thats like me going into a boxing club and teaching a sucker punch, or right cross only - not putting a combination together etc.

In an ideal world one would train both Judo and BJJ, they compliment each other greatly.

But to title a thread "there is more Judo in BJJ than in Judo" is a little missleading.

*quick edit - my bad, welcome back OP.

Doug Cartel

Megan Damaged Talker wrote: »

No one I know likes the fact that leg grabs have been made so complicated, leg grabs themselves aren't illegal, I'll refrain from using Japanese/Judo names, but if I initiate with (for example) an inside foot sweep and my opponent lifts his leg to defend/avoid my sweep I can grab his leg.

If my opponent attacks with a hip throw I can grab his/her leg.

Theoretically true, but different people seem to have different interpretations of the rule. There's a German guy I train with and his home club seem to have a rule of never touching the leg ever. Just in case the ref calls it wrong. That's what I hate most about it, the inconstancy.

Grips on the inside cuff's and pistol grips are IMO overly defensive, doesn't bother me that I can't do them - are they legal in BJJ?.

Pistol grip is legal and you can use a pocket grip right at the edge of the cuff that would probably get you in trouble in judo, but putting your fingers inside the cuff is against the IBJJF rules. Standing up, I would agree they are very defensive grips, but on the ground they become very useful for making things happen.

slammer187

Just a question about the guard slamming rule, if I'm in a position to guard slam my opponent but instead of slamming him I lift him over my shoulders do I score Ippon?

Doug Cartel

slammer187 wrote: »

Just a question about the guard slamming rule, if I'm in a position to guard slam my opponent but instead of slamming him I lift him over my shoulders do I score Ippon?

I believe that used to be the case a while ago, but not anymore.