Do you think the number of NIQ players should be reduced?

SomeFool

Rather than derail the Munster thread I was wondering what everyone thinks about the NIQ allocation in the provinces? Personally I thnk that reducing it to two backs and two forwards with one of them being a project player might not be a bad idea. I think enough quality players are being turned out here now to sustain this wheras it may not have been the case 5 or 10 years ago. Opinions welcome

thomond2006

Think it's being reduced to 4+1 from next season? 4 NIQs + 1 Project Player

Fireball07

SomeFool wrote: »

Rather than derail the Munster thread I was wondering what everyone thinks about the NIQ allocation in the provinces? Personally I thnk that reducing it to two backs and two forwards with one of them being a project player might not be a bad idea. I think enough quality players are being turned out here now to sustain this wheras it may not have been the case 5 or 10 years ago. Opinions welcome

I think it is a good idea in theory. But as for the practical side...I think it could work, but it couldn't just be implemented at once. I think you'd have to give them 2 years at least to sort it out. I don't know what length of contracts those players are on...but you can't really just terminate their contracts.

But it's something that should be worked towards- I don't think there is a need for some of the NIQ players atm.

CIARAN_BOYLE

SomeFool wrote: »

Rather than derail the Munster thread I was wondering what everyone thinks about the NIQ allocation in the provinces? Personally I thnk that reducing it to two backs and two forwards with one of them being a project player might not be a bad idea. I think enough quality players are being turned out here now to sustain this wheras it may not have been the case 5 or 10 years ago. Opinions welcome

I have heard that it is being reduced to 4+1 project for next season and that there would be a review in a couple of seasons on whether it could be cut again.

To be honest the only NIQs that I consider important in Irish rugby at the moment are

Leinster VDM Nacewa and Strauss
Munster Botha WDP, and Howlett
Ulster Afoa, Muller, Wannenberg, Pienaar and Payne
Connacht Ah You, George, Nikora and Fa'fili


The rest are players that the provinces can honestly do without and no province has more than five in the list I consider important so a cut would be justified imo

justsomebloke

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

To be honest the only NIQs that I consider important in Irish rugby at the moment are

Leinster Nacewa

Truthfully Nacewa is probably technically the least important of the NIQ's for Leinster and Sykes is probably going to be a lot more important then him.

Truthfully I think NIQ players are actually quite important to the development of young Irish talent. Generally most young talent get blooded during the windows when the international players away, NIQ players gives these players a chance to play with players of a higher standard from whom they can learn.

Also the current popularity of the sport is based on the success of the teams especially in Europe, if reducing the amount of NIQ's leads to a lower standard of team that is no longer capable of competing at the highest level, the amount of money available for the development of the sport will decrease.

I think that if a player is good enough he will make it into the squad and I think the squad rotation systems in Ireland is good enough to give young players a chance of breaking in.

wixfjord

I think we're probably getting the balance right at the moment tbh, although I do think we should look at certain problem areas for the national team like prop and make provinces develop their own talent instead of buying in mediocre NIQs on big salaries.

The likes of Berquist at Leinster for example, though he's injured, was a necessary signing because we would be down to Academy after Madigan.
I'm very happy with how Joe has been handling youth so far, and there's no reason to think that less NIQs would mean a better amount of young guys coming through. If anything, NIQs like Nacewa add that senior steel that's needed for low level ML games.

CIARAN_BOYLE

wixfjord wrote: »

I think we're probably getting the balance right at the moment tbh, although I do think we should look at certain problem areas for the national team like prop and make provinces develop their own talent instead of buying in mediocre NIQs on big salaries.

Agreed no need to have 8 NIQ props around the country

justsomebloke wrote:

Truthfully Nacewa is probably technically the least important of the NIQ's for Leinster and Sykes is probably going to be a lot more important then him.

I'll agree that you could probably add Sykes to the important players but no way would I consider Nacewa as the least important. He is a fantastic back three player and can cover a few other positions as well. Whats more is that he is the second choice placekicker for Leinster which means he has a massive value through the league.

totallegend

justsomebloke wrote: »

Truthfully Nacewa is probably technically the least important of the NIQ's for Leinster and Sykes is probably going to be a lot more important then him.

I see where you're coming from, in that Nacewa is our NIQ for whom we have the most cover, but I think if you asked most Leinster fans who they'd choose if we could only keep one NIQ, Nacewa would top the poll, followed closely by Strauss and we'd live without Sykes and VDM

justsomebloke wrote: »

I think that if a player is good enough he will make it into the squad and I think the squad rotation systems in Ireland is good enough to give young players a chance of breaking in.

I suppose the problem is that in certain positions, like prop, experience and game time are crucial and while the player rotation system works well in general, the foreign guys aren't subject to the international windows and IRFU player programmes, so they end up playing most of the matches; the likes of Strauss and Howlett played huge amounts of rugby last year.

profitius

Its good that they are reducing the numbers. The academies are bringing through more players than ever and now that the squads have gotten bigger in the last few seasons theres going to be more competition for places in the next few years.

Look at the Leinster pack for example. They used to have a weak pack but mainly because of the academy they've strengthened it every year. Not only that but the average age has come down and the squad is much bigger. Most of the academy players up to now have slotted into the squad but its as big now as its going to get so I think competition for places will really start to hot up and some tough decisions will have to be made. I'd say many players will go to France and England. Its not hard to imagine that in a few seasons Leinster might be in a position where they don't need NIQ players.

Its now up to the other provinces to get their underage production line in order. Munster needs to sort out the development of backs while Ulster needs to sort out their development of forwards. Connacht in fairness are making great progress at underage level.

I'd be in favour of having 3 NIQ players in 5 years time. No project players because I think having project players makes a mockery of international rugby. A project player is also NIQ for 3 seasons so they should be counted as NIQ.

Podge_irl

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Whats more is that he is the second choice placekicker for Leinster which means he has a massive value through the league.

I'm not particularly happy with that situation though. From an Irish point of view I'd much rather see Madigan and McFadden taking more kicks.

profitius wrote: »

Its not hard to imagine that in a few seasons Leinster might be in a position where they don't need NIQ players.

I'm not so sure about that. Leinster's academy seems to be far and away the most prolific on the island and a huge number of excellent rugby players are coming through but there are still glaring gaps in certain positions. Most notably in the second row and at scrum half.

danthefan

I don't think it's actually fair to reduce the number of NIQs, because the IRFU don't allow the internationals to play at least half the league games every season. If the number of NIQs is reduced, be prepared for utter dross for significant parts of the league season from the provinces.

thomond2006

The Italian clubs Aironi and Treviso have an interesting ruling. Only 1 NIQ can start or be in the 23 (can't remember which) in a certain part of the team (front row, centres, back row etc). I wouldn't mind that rule to accompany 4+1. For example, it's a joke in Munster that we have 2+1 props on our books.

wixfjord

profitius wrote: »

Its good that they are reducing the numbers. The academies are bringing through more players than ever and now that the squads have gotten bigger in the last few seasons theres going to be more competition for places in the next few years.

Look at the Leinster pack for example. They used to have a weak pack but mainly because of the academy they've strengthened it every year. Not only that but the average age has come down and the squad is much bigger. Most of the academy players up to now have slotted into the squad but its as big now as its going to get so I think competition for places will really start to hot up and some tough decisions will have to be made. I'd say many players will go to France and England. Its not hard to imagine that in a few seasons Leinster might be in a position where they don't need NIQ players.

Its now up to the other provinces to get their underage production line in order. Munster needs to sort out the development of backs while Ulster needs to sort out their development of forwards. Connacht in fairness are making great progress at underage level.

I'd be in favour of having 3 NIQ players in 5 years time. No project players because I think having project players makes a mockery of international rugby. A project player is also NIQ for 3 seasons so they should be counted as NIQ.

I'd actually disagree with that point. It's because of NIQs like Elsom, Will Green, Le Roux, Wright, Hines, Whittaker etc that Leinster's pack have hardened, and you can be sure that many of these passed on some good advice to young guys.
It's about picking the right players and ensuring that they're coming here to excel and teach and not pick up a payheck like Le Roux, Finnegan or Gomez.

There's been some awful dross over the year who have sucked money from the game, and it's up to the IRFU to ensure the best are picked. I think there's been a good job in doing this in Leinster for the past few years, and guys like Strauss, Hines, Sykes, VDM etc have really made the difference to our pack.

SomeFool

wixfjord wrote: »

There's been some awful dross over the year who have sucked money from the game, and it's up to the IRFU to ensure the best are picked. I think there's been a good job in doing this in Leinster for the past few years, and guys like Strauss, Hines, Sykes, VDM etc have really made the difference to our pack.

I suppose this is my main bugbear, I also think that our provinces are guilty of looking abroad for short term injury cover rather than promoting from within, we've seen short stints for Holwell at leinster and the likes of Morland and Melk at Munster.

profitius

wixfjord wrote: »

I'd actually disagree with that point. It's because of NIQs like Elsom, Will Green, Le Roux, Wright, Hines, Whittaker etc that Leinster's pack have hardened, and you can be sure that many of these passed on some good advice to young guys.
It's about picking the right players and ensuring that they're coming here to excel and teach and not pick up a payheck like Le Roux, Finnegan or Gomez.

The NIQ players had a role to play but it is mainly because of the academy that Leinster have strength in dept in the forwards. You can pass on tips to players but those players have to be made of the right stuff too.

CIARAN_BOYLE

SomeFool wrote: »

I suppose this is my main bugbear, I also think that our provinces are guilty of looking abroad for short term injury cover rather than promoting from within, we've seen short stints for Holwell at leinster and the likes of Morland and Melk at Munster.

Or even in the last 12 months Newland and Galazra at Leinster

SomeFool

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Or even in the last 12 months Newland and Galazra at Leinster

Have to give them credit for taking a chance with Dundon and Shawe though, something I'd like to see more of.

anonymous_joe

SomeFool wrote: »

Have to give them credit for taking a chance with Dundon and Shawe though, something I'd like to see more of.

Riordan's in the squad too.

SomeFool

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Riordan's in the squad too.

Not really the same, Danny Riordan palyed for Connacht and was in the Munster set up for a while too , think he might have even played with the Irish A side. I may well be wrong but I don't think the other two lads have that level of experience.

anonymous_joe

SomeFool wrote: »

Not really the same, Danny Riordan palyed for Connacht and was in the Munster set up for a while too , think he might have even played with the Irish A side. I may well be wrong but I don't think the other two lads have that level of experience.

True, but lads like Riordan and Willis are getting a second chance (well, third chance) which is good to see too.

wixfjord

Interesting quote from Schmidt in today's Indo:

Wales have six foreign players and two special projects, yet everyone is talking about this great young Wales generation. Do those foreign players preclude the development of youth? I don't think so.

"If you spoke to (Leinster winger) Dave Kearney, he would tell you that he wouldn't be as good as he is now if Isa Nacewa wasn't there. As an outsider, I certainly don't think overseas players are holding back Irish rugby.

"I think it also helps the likes of Ian Madigan, if he is competing with Matt Berquist it keeps him working hard and honest. Who was Berquist second string to? Dan Carter at the Crusaders, so the influence and knowledge he brings to the party is really important.

decisions

NIQ's are a valuable part of the squad, just look at what Rockey did for Heaslips game or what Isa has brought to Leinster over the past couple of seasons. Yes it does mean that occasionally some home grown talent doesn't get as much game time as they should but Schmidt in particular is quite good at balancing that.

profitius

The big difference between Ireland and Wales is the older Welsh players go abroad and it allows them bring through young players. Young Irish players have more barriers in their way so we need to cut back on the NIQs.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

The big difference between Ireland and Wales is the older Welsh players go abroad and it allows them bring through young players. Young Irish players have more barriers in their way so we need to cut back on the NIQs.

I'd be more inclined to say we need to cut back on older Irish players at the provinces. Unfortunately with central contracts and the tax rebate that's kind of difficult.

bamboozle

i'd settle to see Connacht used a mixture between Connacht players (JOC, Duffy, Muldoon) and young guys from other provinces being held back from serious game time at their home provinces (obvious examples being Carr, Keatley & Croning) i'd also like to see a number of the irish U20's being based at Connacht to develop, and no NIQ players there to ensure they players getting the experience will be of benefit ultimately to the national teams (if they're good enough)

astonaidan

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd settle to see Connacht used a mixture between Connacht players (JOC, Duffy, Muldoon) and young guys from other provinces being held back from serious game time at their home provinces (obvious examples being Carr, Keatley & Croning) i'd also like to see a number of the irish U20's being based at Connacht to develop, and no NIQ players there to ensure they players getting the experience will be of benefit ultimately to the national teams (if they're good enough)

Wow thanks, So were actually going to put it in writing were a feeder club

porterbelly

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd settle to see Connacht used a mixture between Connacht players (JOC, Duffy, Muldoon) and young guys from other provinces being held back from serious game time at their home provinces (obvious examples being Carr, Keatley & Croning) i'd also like to see a number of the irish U20's being based at Connacht to develop, and no NIQ players there to ensure they players getting the experience will be of benefit ultimately to the national teams (if they're good enough)

Connacht want to be competitive, get into the Heineken again, move up the Rabo table and eventually try to fight on the same level as the other 3 provinces. Landing is with a load of untried kids and stopping is from signing NIQ's will set us a long way back

Some young lads don't want to play for Connacht so you can't force them west if they don't want to come, even if it's going to be better for their career. Conway said no to a year with us, many others have done so as well, Tonetti and Sheridan last year as well. Tonnetti can't get a game at Sale any more and Sheridan has been in the Leinster academy for 4 years. We need NIQ's to fill the gaps in our squad.

Obviously we've had some big NIQ flops, Ezra Taylor, Gavin Williams to name but 2 and there's been many more. But we have had great successes. The likes of Ray Ofisa and George Naoupu have been brilliant for us. There's a alot more of a risk for us when signing NIQ's because we can't go out and flash the chequebook and sign a Howlett or an Elsom or a Pienaar. Hopefully in time to come with our finances improving we can bring in some bigger names who can have a big impact and bring the other lads on as well.

You also have to factor into account that with the right structures in place in the last couple of years with some proper funding in our academy system, we're starting to produce some quality players ourselves. O'Halloran and Griffin have established themselves as 1st teamers this year and are potential internationals. Our u20s won the grand slam in the interpros, these lads will be breaking through in the next couple of years. We had a very young side out v a very experienced Munster A side yesterday that put it up to them for long periods. At the end of the day, we want to produce indigenous players for Connacht who have loyalty to us and want to play here