Interesting article on fighting game commentary...

Doctor DooM

http://shoryuken.com/2011/10/19/improving-live-streams-the-commentary-quandary/

Some interesting reading for people there...


It kind of makes me think I should be more forceful in picking commentators, instead of my current policy of giving everyone a shot til the top 8, but at the same time, you need the perfect mixing of willingness and ability for it to work right. So I can't "make" who I want to commentate do it.

I do already feel myself my game suffers because of working behind the desk. But I don't mind this weirdly as becoming good at the game has become secondary to me personally to growing the scene. Do the people who commentate regularly feel the same that it makes them suffer a little?

Do people enjoy the commentary we do at the moment? Is there particular commentators that you listen to more, or is it the people who are playing which sways you?

Just wondering, I found it very interesting, for obvious reasons.

mackg

Never done commentary but my preference from a listening point of view would be for a soccer style main commentator with a co-commentator, the main commentator knowing their stuff match ups etc. and the second one more of a hype kind of guy chiming in now and again. Two guys rambling on about how hype it is gets boring, I'm watching it I know how hype it is. Also actually commentating the match is important.

Do people enjoy the commentary we do at the moment? Is there particular commentators that you listen to more, or is it the people who are playing which sways you?

Yeah I do, when watching players that are a higher level than me it's nice to have people explaining the aspects of the match that mightn't be apparent to us scrubs!

Vyze

A lot of the best commentary from America ends up talking about things outside of the match, whether it be funny stories about the players or just dumb **** that's been happening in the scene lately. Good commentary sometimes strays away from the match being played if there's not a lot going on worth mentioning.

K.O.Kiki

I don't really play/train much these days, but I'd love to do some 3s/sf4 commentary.

But please, don't ever ask me to commentate on BB again!

UberPrinny_Baal

I really love the commentary from our scene. So much so that once I scrub out of a tournament, I prefer to avoid watching the top 8 live and go play casuals, so I can watch them later with commentary.

I'm not sure the scope of the article is necessarily relevant to our scene, because they're talking about people commentating for a dozen-ish hours a day on a stream, every day, for 3-4 day events.

Top 8/16 at our scene is only a couple of hours max, and it will generally involve a rotation of commentators as people play, which keeps people a bit fresher/less bored/less tired. In this regard I don't think the article is 100% relevant.

Best commentators: This is kind of hard to call, since only Doyler, Onion and Doom stick to the "Doom commentating article rules" of introducing themselves, so I often don't know who a lot of commentators are. Doyler and Onion are definitely top two, but sometimes the "Mix" is better if it's colour commentator (Doom) with the pro. So like don't always pair Doyler with Onion, but make sure at least one of them is on.

Does commentating/organising affect your personal play quality: Absolutely, this is why I have the highest respect for tournament organisers, but is also why I wouldn't want to do it myself and stopped being the main TO for Smash Bros. I only wanted to play, I didn't enjoy organising, and my level of play at tournaments suffered because I had to run things. Being "relieved" when you're eliminated so you can focus more on organising is a bad sign.

Does the commentators or players sway what you watch? I'm not sure this is really applicable for our scene, because commentators aren't noted on the videos, and they often don't name themselves so there is no way to "select" your favourite commentators from a menu. Also regarding players, it's usually always the same players playing in the commentated matches.

Regarding the point in the article about how Starcraft commentators can control their camera but SF is always fixed:
I think the important point about commentary is actually that good commentators are basically like another camera angle that lets you "see" more of the match than you would normally. In a match you may see a Ryu doing a couple of crouching kicks midscreen which is boring and I wouldn't understand the importance of this, but a good commentator would say something like "He's fishing for a hit confirm into ultra", or "He's looking for a counterhit setup", "Excellent blockstring/frame trap", or even "Great block by the opponent" etc etc etc.

tl;dr: The soul of good commentating isn't describing WHAT is happening on screen, but WHY it's happening, what the thought behind it is, and what kind of actions you might expect to see next as a result of it. This is the sort of stuff that is completely invisible the beginner/low/mid tier players without commentary, or even high level players watching characters they're not familiar with.

Vyze wrote: »

A lot of the best commentary from America ends up talking about things outside of the match, whether it be funny stories about the players or just dumb **** that's been happening in the scene lately. Good commentary sometimes strays away from the match being played if there's not a lot going on worth mentioning.

Only if it's a really lame match. I personally don't like people in our scene on commentary talking about how they have been performing in the tournament themselves, and who they'll need to play next. Not mic appropriate in my opinion

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

But please, don't ever ask me to commentate

Sticky request!

mackg

^^Very good post.

Liquidswords

Watching some of the Seasons Beatings commentary this weekend got me thinking about the commentary on fighting games and why it's so hit and miss. Really it just boils down to whether or not the guy on the mic is charismatic enough to actually make you want to listen to what they have to say.

They have to have mic presence meaning they should command you to listen through not only what they say but how they say it. Yipes has great mic presence, Seth Killian also has good mic presence although he exhibits it in a vastly different manner. Despite a contrast in styles both utilise their voice very well to keep the listeners attention.

Which brings me on to my next point, you can't have a fruity voice if you're a commentator. You might have a fair contribution to make but if you sound like a bitch nobody wants to hear it e.g. Skisonic. You also can't moan about the players mistakes or bust your load when they do some sick sh1t as if you're living vicariously through them. Again e.g Skisonic.

Critique? Yes! Give grief? Hell yeah! Hop on and off dicks like a filthy slag? No!

You should be impartial.

The last point is, it doesn't matter if you have a "professional" style or a more informal light hearted style neither is better than the other but if you choose to be more formal know your sh!t and if you choose to crack more jokes and stuff at least be funny.

In the end it's all down to the individual, some people are fun to listen to some make you want to jump off cliffs at the mere thought of sitting through them spout horsesh!t.

And don't copy what Starcraft's doing. They're nerds.

chopperbyrne

Good commentary enhances any video, but bad commentary will stop me watching.

Myself and Cobelcog had an awful commentary session at a Dragonslayers a few months back and the worst example from our scene has been Xinkai and Nutrient commentating on Blazblue from a recent DOC. I wanted to watch those videos as I had to leave early, but because of the commentary I stopped watching.

Onion and Doyler are definitely the best two we have for SF and Marvel with Speedboat, Dreddy, DooM and probably Bourke in the next tier. (V-Deck is in his own tier!)

The best two I've found for Blazblue have been Power of Science and Linoud, who both know quite a bit about the game and are comfortable on the mic and good at delivering the information. Joe and Voa are both very knowledgeable, but either reuse BBVlog jokes or just bicker between themselves too much.

In general, I think our commentary for the latter end of tournaments is quite good and I much prefer it to the vast majority of commentary from say England.

K.O.Kiki

What's wrong with my commentary?

chopperbyrne

It's shít.

You fall over your words, get stuff wrong and don't hold anyone's attention.

UberPrinny_Baal

Liquidswords wrote: »

Which brings me on to my next point, you can't have a fruity voice if you're a commentator. You might have a fair contribution to make but if you sound like a bitch nobody wants to hear it

I'm going to specifically disagree with the homophobic sentiment you're expressing here.

Other than that you're making a lot of random points I don't see any sense to: Give grief but don't bitch? Get hype but don't bust a load?

What?

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

What's wrong with my commentary?

I actually haven't ever heard you commentate on something as far as I know Kiki, I was just making fun of you. If I have listened to a match you commentated on, it means you didn't identify yourself, which reflects badly on you.

Dreddybajs

Sorry Kiki but your commentary is terrible.

Linoud

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Good commentary enhances any video, but bad commentary will stop me watching.

Myself and Cobelcog had an awful commentary session at a Dragonslayers a few months back and the worst example from our scene has been Xinkai and Nutrient commentating on Blazblue from a recent DOC. I wanted to watch those videos as I had to leave early, but because of the commentary I stopped watching.

Onion and Doyler are definitely the best two we have for SF and Marvel with Speedboat, Dreddy, DooM and probably Bourke in the next tier. (V-Deck is in his own tier!)

The best two I've found for Blazblue have been Power of Science and Linoud, who both know quite a bit about the game and are comfortable on the mic and good at delivering the information. Joe and Voa are both very knowledgeable, but either reuse BBVlog jokes or just bicker between themselves too much.

In general, I think our commentary for the latter end of tournaments is quite good and I much prefer it to the vast majority of commentary from say England.

That was my first time on the mic actually, only commentated two or three matches that day, so I was abit unsure as to how it was actually going to go. Hopefully next time I'll be better at it, and able to follow the pace of the match better and not cut over the other person as much. I'm pretty happy that someone thinks it was good though. Cheers!

wtfbenson

I think the one thing our commentary is lacking when compared to the Iplaywinner guys, and something I'd like to see more of, is creative uses of the word swag. I mean, I don't think I've ever heard you guys call a Shoryuken a swagryuken, a rekkashingeki a swagashingeki let alone refer to Super Skrull as Swagger Swagull.

Kidding aside, I really like this post and the artice. Here's my 2 cents:

Best commentators: I've mainly watched the MVC3 matches so I suppose my favorites would be Doom/Doyler/Onion though not necesarrily in that order. There's enough familiarity that the three seem to be able to have some friendly banter but enough game knowledge to explain the set-ups and such. Thus far though, I do really like the commentary of the scene here because it tends to be rather humorous but still informative.

Does the commentators or players sway what you watch? Yes! Anytime Jaha gets on the mic for any of the NorCal events, I stop watching. That dude is terrible beyond terrible. I can't stand commentators who talk trash about the players or criticize them as they're playing. It's cool to point out a dropped combo or two since we all make mistakes but a lot of the East coast commentators are just too bitter to watch.

Overall, I think the best commentary is one that assumes at least moderate knowledge on the part of the viewer. Like, there's no reason to explain what an FADC is or a DHC since you can easily learn those in training mode and if you're watching a stream, you've probably seen them before. What I like to hear most in a commentary is an explanation of the match-ups as well as the set-ups/baits. For example, I'm very new to competitive SF playing so many match-ups are a complete mystery to me.

Knowing that El Fuerte is fishing for a whiffed st. MK from T.Hawk is incredibly helpful because I've never seen that match-up so having the strategy explained is useful. Having those explanations interspersed with some light banter about the players, the venue or just any random anecdote adds the perfect amount of entertainment to it. After all, a play by play of every tiny bit of footsies would be more like a chess match than a video game so there needs to be a decent balance.

Liquidswords

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'm going to specifically disagree with the homophobic sentiment you're expressing here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXw6znXPfy4

Nah, just kidding. It's not that serious you know I didn't mean that as an anti-gay statement. That much was blatantly apparent from the example used.

The rest of it did make sense, giving grief is just hurling a bit of friendly abuse in the name of craic. Bitching is more like mocking people for their efforts and being a dick about it.

And I didn't even say "get hype" random points tend not to make any sense if you just make them them up and chuck them in there.

Jun_DP101

I think ultra david is the best sf commentator atm, in Ireland.... maybe Doyler, no one is really charismatic but Doyler seems to know the most about each character in sf.

I would love to give commentating a shot, I'm articulate and funny but my modesty is my greatest characteristic.

:pac::pac:

K.O.Kiki

chopperbyrne wrote:

It's shít.

You fall over your words, get stuff wrong and don't hold anyone's attention.

I do stutter sometimes, but I didn't think it was that bad. Unless you mean for commentating BB matches; dunno why I went on mic as I (a) couldn't see the screen and (b) don't play BB.
Can you give me some pointers on what I usually get wrong then? I know I don't know every safe-jump/OS in the game, but that'd be nearly impossible (players keeping small secrets like).
And eh... hold attention? It's not like anyone's listening to live commentary :pac:

Dreddybajs wrote:

Sorry Kiki but your commentary is terrible.

Not very helpful there Dreddy.

Speed Boat

I think game and character knowledge comes first. This allows you to have a base for whatever style of commentary you're going for.

I see the examples of good commentators being both Yipes and Ultradavid(not necessarily my faves but good examples). Both have differing styles but good game knowledge.

I don't mind commentating but I often find it tough to properly augment/incorporate the other commentator.

I think possibly settling on a a few folks(per game) who can get used to the arrangement. Perhaps even agreeing on who the main voice will be and what topics each will cover.

unky chop chop

I Vote Doyler all the way...Onion ain't half bad and Dreddy adds a nice mellow,well informed side to it.
It is really the WWF formula that is a winner.One crazy hyped up lunatic and a co-commentator who knows his stuff with frame data and what not.
Doyler has both in my opinion.
Yet to here Kiki...Linky please

Owwmykneecap

I don't think Kiki's that bad. And hey getting stuff wrong gets a bit of back and forth between him and the person who is right.

Seriously though, i think we should be thankful people step forward to do it, I rarely do and if I do, I usually cant see the game/don't know the game/can't hear my co commentator (i'm deaf dontchaknow).

Who do I prefere? I like the natural flow, without too much play by play, I'd say Speedboat and Bourke would be two who I like at it.

The norn iron guys have been pretty funny over some dull matches so, that'd be the other side of it. V Deck's the mouthy one ain't he?

Doctor DooM

Interesting (hour long) podcast with James Chen on this very topic.

couple of interesting things here I'm personally taking to heart (especially the things with in jokes, must remember to explain them if I make them).

http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/08/james-chen-discusses-the-importance-of-fighting-game-commentary/

UberPrinny_Baal

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Interesting (hour long) podcast with James Chen on this very topic.

couple of interesting things here I'm personally taking to heart (especially the things with in jokes, must remember to explain them if I make them).

http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/08/james-chen-discusses-the-importance-of-fighting-game-commentary/

I'll dig out my ipod and give it listen.

Not sure yet what he said about in-jokes; but I think we're on the side of way waaaaay too many unexplained in-jokes.

If one more person says on commentary "Team Kiki: Got hit? Shoulda parried!" I will do my very best to murder them.

It's approaching the levels of "Awkward Nerd at a Convention shouting 'The Cake is a Lie' at the top of his lungs in the desperate hope that people will like him".

K.O.Kiki

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'll dig out my ipod and give it listen.

Not sure yet what he said about in-jokes; but I think we're on the side of way waaaaay too many unexplained in-jokes.

If one more person says on commentary "Team Kiki: Got hit? Shoulda parried!" I will do my very best to murder them.

It's approaching the levels of "Awkward Nerd at a Convention shouting 'The Cake is a Lie' at the top of his lungs in the desperate hope that people will like him".

I have no idea what you're on about, either

Doctor DooM

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I have no idea what you're on about, either

It's become a running joke that Speedboat is sponsored by team kiki (for all your stick needs) which is a follow on from team doomy (should be obvious) and ATB (which is a Mortal Kombat joke).

The "Got hit- shoulda parried" slogan is a parody of your...er... helpful advice you keep offering people mid match!

Doctor DooM

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'll dig out my ipod and give it listen.

Not sure yet what he said about in-jokes; but I think we're on the side of way waaaaay too many unexplained in-jokes.

If one more person says on commentary "Team Kiki: Got hit? Shoulda parried!" I will do my very best to murder them.

It's approaching the levels of "Awkward Nerd at a Convention shouting 'The Cake is a Lie' at the top of his lungs in the desperate hope that people will like him".

I actually think a little bit of in jokery is good, it's like an indication of a real group of people having fun with each other.


I agree that commentary with a long stream of memes is not fun, unless it's Yipes or someone doing it.

1man3letters

Doctor DooM wrote: »

and ATB (which is a Mortal Kombat joke).

untrue....it was a, wow people on boards can get angry over the stupidist things joke,:pac:

but yea a bit of banter is good but cant all be that, just as we cant name the frame data/+or- block/oki options of every move on the screen,so guess it a middle gound must be found kinda thing

Doctor DooM

Zombie thread but here's a great example of how NOT to do commentary.

I know Deiminions style is not exciting, but it's a grand final and the commentary in the second half of this video I actually found excruciating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw40xxLEQhY

Like the occasional "ARGH THIS GAME" rant is fine but when it's at the expense of the viewers experience...

On the other side I'm quite happy with how ours has been lately

Speed Boat

The commentary at big two is very hit and miss as Spooky just lets everybody have a go.

It's more casual NY scene chats then commentary at this stage.

Which can also be great sometimes.

D4RK ONION

I had to mute the video, he really started to grind on my nerves. Genuinely one of the worst bits of commentary I've ever heard.

Nutrient

Think its about finding 2 people that first off get along when it comes to commentary.

Being comfortable is definetly beneficial and I believe thats why everyone likes doing commentary with the likes of Doyler as hes pretty lackadasical and relaxing to commentate with and doesn't talk over you when you speak

Personally, It's about the 2 commentaters actually talking to each other and being respectful to one another when it's their turn to speak[disregarding hype moments ofc]

Knowledge can definetly be shared with each other