Isolation Switches for Dishwasher, Washing Machine, Tumble Dryer etc.

BMD

Hi,

Can anyone tell me whether isolation switches are required for under the counter appliances such as dishwashers, washing machines etc. and if so can someone point me towards the appropriate regulations?

M cebee

if you search it's been discussed

if the sockets for the appliances are inaccessible

i would fit a DP switch for each above the worktop

BMD

I have looked but cannot find anything definitive...I understand that it is best practice but I want to know that it is the law and if so where I can find the law

M cebee

Its in the wiring rules

BMD

Thanks, unfortunately these don't seem to be available online. Do you know where these can be accessed or do you know the exact point in the rules that I could reference?

M cebee

Top of page 308

BMD

Thanks...I found it..Annex 55A Section 4.2 A

meercat

BMD wrote: »

Hi,

Can anyone tell me whether isolation switches are required for under the counter appliances such as dishwashers, washing machines etc. and if so can someone point me towards the appropriate regulations?

socket outlets that are not readily accessible must be provided with a clearly labelled double pole switch,rated 20amp,in an accessible position e.g. on the wall above the work top
(554.3.5)

warmglow

hi , if someone was replacing a new washing machine and the socket remains inaccessable (wired years ago) should it be recified before new one is installed ? is it in rules that you must or leave existing alone ?

meercat

warmglow wrote: »

hi , if someone was replacing a new washing machine and the socket remains inaccessable (wired years ago) should it be recified before new one is installed ? is it in rules that you must or leave existing alone ?

the rules are not retrospective
only new work needs to be switched

warmglow

cheers thanks - if a new kitchen is being installed and sockets/wiring moved and added i presume that the new way should be followed ?

evosteo

yea any new work been carried out should be to the 4th edition regs

warmglow

thank you

infinitejest

M cebee wrote: »

if you search it's been discussed

if the sockets for the appliances are inaccessible

i would fit a DP switch for each above the worktop

Resurrecting an old thread.

Our electrician want to put in 5 of these DP switches /isolator switches (Hob, integrated oven, microwave, fridge/freezer and cooker hood) and I assume one will have to go in the kitchen counter for the dishwasher. Add to this 3 standard double sockets and it really makes the splashback look ugly and cluttered.

Is there anyway to be creative with these switches and hide/disguise them? THey are potentially ruining the kitchen splashback (glass)

meercat

infinitejest wrote: »

Resurrecting an old thread.

Our electrician want to put in 5 of these DP switches /isolator switches (Hob, integrated oven, microwave, fridge/freezer and cooker hood) and I assume one will have to go in the kitchen counter for the dishwasher. Add to this 3 standard double sockets and it really makes the splashback look ugly and cluttered.

Is there anyway to be creative with these switches and hide/disguise them? THey are potentially ruining the kitchen splashback (glass)

Afraid not
They are a regulation and need to be close to the appliance
You can get a grid which incorporates 20amp double pole switches but with all the cables and different circuits , seperate isolators is best

infinitejest

meercat wrote: »

Afraid not
They are a regulation and need to be close to the appliance
You can get a grid which incorporates 20amp double pole switches but with all the cables and different circuits , seperate isolators is best

Thanks meercat - Not what I wanted to hear!

Do you know what the minimum distance between appliance and switch is? (I am thinking we could place all the switches on one wall.)

Do you know if these switches are permitted in Ireland?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crabtree-Grid-Switch-Kitchen-Multi-Gang-Switch-Plates-/280663095648

What a palaver. Wish the kitchen people would have flagged this sooner.

M cebee

i've seen those multi-gang switches mentioned on the uk sites
i'm a bit puzzled about their purpose fitted at kitchen entrance

2011

Perhaps the switches could be mounted within a cupboard ?
I assume that this is acceptable once they are accessible, close to the appliance and clearly marked.

Dardania

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps the switches could be mounted within a cupboard ?
I assume that this is acceptable once they are accessible, close to the appliance and clearly marked.

I never entertain that idea with architects. Accessible, in a cupboard is fine at design stage, but what about when it's full of junk, and no one remembers where they are?

M cebee

ya i don't like em in presses
usually just above worktop

does anyone know what the purpose of these multi gang switches is?
presumably they'd have to be fitted in addition to local isolators unless they're close to all appliances

meercat

infinitejest wrote: »

Thanks meercat - Not what I wanted to hear!

Do you know what the minimum distance between appliance and switch is? (I am thinking we could place all the switches on one wall.)

Do you know if these switches are permitted in Ireland?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crabtree-Grid-Switch-Kitchen-Multi-Gang-Switch-Plates-/280663095648

What a palaver. Wish the kitchen people would have flagged this sooner.

socket outlets that are not readily accessible must be provided with a clearly labelled double pole switch,rated 20amp,in an accessible position e.g. on the wall above the work top
(554.3.5)

I don't think inside a cupboard would be acceptable

I would think the 2 metre rule for isolators is relevant here too

Not a fan of those grid type isolators either as you will possibly have 3 different circuits connected into 1 box
Space will be at a premium to get all connections in,so seperate isolators for me

2011

Dardania wrote: »

I never entertain that idea with architects. Accessible, in a cupboard is fine at design stage, but what about when it's full of junk, and no one remembers where they are?

I have a microwave in my kitchen cupboards nad have never had any problem accessing the switches

If the 20A DP switches have neon indication lights, are installed at the front of the cupboard at high level (just under the countertop) and are clearly labeled (traffolite labels) I do not possibly see how they could be obstructed by junk, be inaccessible or be forgotten about. If this was my kitchen I would consider this option preferable to ruining a glass splash back. I assume that part of the idea of the splash back is that it can be washed down (water and electricity are not a good mix at the best of times )



Incidentally, my own kitchen does not have these isolation switches (wired pre 4th edition of ET101) and over the last 7 years I can honestly say that I have never missed them. I can not envisage a situation in the future where such switches would be an advantage to me either.

cast_iron

2011 wrote: »

Incidentally, my own kitchen does not have these isolation switches (wired pre 4th edition of ET101) and over the last 7 years I can honestly say that I have never missed them. I can not envisage a situation in the future where such switches would be an advantage to me either.

I agree. Was on a job where the isolators would have ruined a glass splashback so they were put in a nearby high level cupboard. Mind you, they were harder made off. I don't see why you wouldn't put them in a cupboard in such a situation. It's not worth the extra work though unless it's really required.

At the end of the day, the appliance is still plugged into its own socket that can be plugged out by moving the appliance. If an appliance is getting serviced and requires mains isolation, it's quite probable it will removed from its location anyway to allow proper servicing.

The rule is daft, and should be examined with a view to making it less restrictive.

infinitejest

2011 wrote: »

I have a microwave in my kitchen cupboards nad have never had any problem accessing the switches

If the 20A DP switches have neon indication lights, are installed at the front of the cupboard at high level (just under the countertop) and are clearly labeled (traffolite labels) I do not possibly see how they could be obstructed by junk, be inaccessible or be forgotten about. If this was my kitchen I would consider this option preferable to ruining a glass splash back. I assume that part of the idea of the splash back is that it can be washed down (water and electricity are not a good mix at the best of times )

Is it 'legal' or within the regs to put the switches in a press?

In our case it isn't possible to put them under the countertop (drawer units only under the counters) but there is a convenient overhead press I could use. It is a small enough kitchen.

To be honest I don't think the electrician will go for this - he has not been very helpful on this matter to date. Seems determined to ruin the splashback I will mention the water issue however! It might sway him.

M cebee

the old ways were bad
sockets all over the place and behind appliances no way of switching anything off

i'd have an issue with the 2011 amendment
which says sockets are allowed above 1200mm
but must be inaccessible for general use and presumably need an isolating switch then.
a bit overkill if you want an accessible socket below a flatscreen

generally i'm in favour. homeowners can now isolate appliances easily and don't have to leave everything on standby

2011

infinitejest wrote: »

Is it 'legal' or within the regs to put the switches in a press?

In my opinion, yes once these switches comply with the current regulations (ET:101) and more specifically this one:
"Scoket outlets that are not readily accessible must be provided with a clearly labelled double pole switch,rated 20amp,in an accessible position e.g. on the wall above the work top".

If I am incorrect, then perhaps someone can show me where in the regulations it states that this is not permitted.

In our case it isn't possible to put them under the countertop (drawer units only under the counters) but there is a convenient overhead press I could use. It is a small enough kitchen.

To be honest I don't think the electrician will go for this - he has not been very helpful on this matter to date. Seems determined to ruin the splashback I will mention the water issue however! It might sway him.

Your electrician may feel that he would be "sticking his neck out" by doing anything different from what he/she has seen done before.

There may be a concern that the overhead press is too far from the appliances or that at this stage of the job it is too late to make changes such as this.

On a positive note, at least your electrician is familiar with the regulations and wants to comply with them. There are plenty that don't.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

generally i'm in favour. homeowners can now isolate appliances easily and don't have to leave everything on standby

Such as what?
I can think of one or two obscure examples, but that is about it.


In a kitchen the appliances are typically:
Dishwasher
Fridge
Freezer
Microwave
Washing machine
Tumble Dryer

Why would someone want to switch off any of the above at an isolating switch?

To service/ maintain any of these devices they would have to be removed anyway, in which case they could simply be unplugged. If the exterior of any of these devices were to become live due to a fault and the protective devices failed it would be best to isolate at the distribution board, not the isolator anyway.

M cebee

he'll have to keep below 1600mm
can he do that in the press?

does the latest rule say accessible or readily accessible?
dunno about that bit
you'd have to know it's in the press and if the press is full of stuff it's no longer readily accessible anyhow?
a quick call to reci/ecssa clear it up

2011

M cebee wrote: »

he'll have to keep below 1600mm
can he do that in the press?

Are you referring to a regulation on the max height of isolators?

To be honest I would think that installing the isolating switches at high level in the overhead cupboards may be "pushing it" a bit.

does the latest rule say accessible or readily accessible?

"Scoket outlets that are not readily accessible must be provided with a clearly labelled double pole switch,rated 20amp,in an accessible position e.g. on the wall above the work top".

dunno about that bit
you'd have to know it's in the press and if the press is full of stuff it's no longer readily accessible anyhow?
a quick call to reci/ecssa clear it up

As I stated above: If the 20A DP switches have neon indication lights, are installed at the front of the cupboard at high level (just under the countertop) and are clearly labeled (traffolite labels) I do not possibly see how they could be obstructed by junk, be inaccessible or be forgotten about.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I can not envisage a situation in the future where such switches would be an advantage to me either.

One advantage is it can help quickly identify a problem socket/appliance tripping an RCD because they isolate phase and neutral.

Other than that, they are a bit of a nuisance to install at times.

cast_iron

Again I agree with 2011. Dishwashers/washing machines/microwaves/fridges etc don't have a standy by setting. I've yet to see a good reason for this rule.

M cebee wrote: »

he'll have to keep below 1600mm
can he do that in the press?

For the isolator?

you'd have to know it's in the press and if the press is full of stuff it's no longer readily accessible anyhow?

That might be good argument in a commercial place, where lots of different people would not be expected to know there's hidden switches. But this applies to domestic dwellings, where people own and live in the premises, so it's fair to assume that they will know that the switches are there.

a quick call to reci/ecssa clear it up

Good idea. The op could try this if the electrician is still not will to play ball.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

Such as what?
I can think of one or two obscure examples, but that is about it.


In a kitchen the appliances are typically:
Dishwasher
Fridge
Freezer
Microwave
Washing machine
Tumble Dryer

Why would someone want to switch off any of the above at an isolating switch?

To service/ maintain any of these devices they would have to be removed anyway, in which case they could simply be unplugged. If the exterior of any of these devices were to become live due to a fault and the protective devices failed it would be best to isolate at the distribution board, not the isolator anyway.

not really
for a start the rule covers more than inaccessible kitchen sockets
and also your example of a live appliance
-you would turn off the accessible DP switch

page 308
re kitchen switches
'this is to enable the immediate disconnection of the appliance in the case of an emergency'

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

One advantage is it can help quickly identify a problem socket/appliance tripping an RCD because they isolate phase and neutral.

Is that the best you can come up with ? :D

Ok, I'll buy it. Once every 40 years it may help me to find out why the RCD is tripping and once very 20 years it causes my RCD to trip because the steam from my kettle is entering my DP switch that is above the countertop :D

2011

M cebee wrote: »

not really
for a start the rule covers more than inaccessible kitchen sockets

I know.

and also your example of a live appliance
-you would turn off the accessible DP switch

This will not necessarily make the appliance dead. It may be live because if is in contact with another device or circuit. Then the DP isolator may be deceptive to the end user.

page 308
re kitchen switches
'this is to enable the immediate disconnection of the appliance in the case of an emergency'

....which may or may not work, see above. Remember a kitchen should have at least 2 socket circuits and will generally have a cooker supply too. There are often copper pipes that my introduce a voltage from elsewhere. Always best to isolate at the board IMHO.

I am going off topic! I am not suggesting that the rules should not be obeyed, I am just trying to find a way of complying with them and accommodating the OP.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Is that the best you can come up with ? :D

Ok, I'll buy it. Once every 40 years it may help me to find out why the RCD is tripping and once very 20 years it causes my RCD to trip because the steam from my kettle is entering my DP switch that is above the countertop :D

Im getting old dont forget

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

Im getting old dont forget

Did they have electricity when you were young ??

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Did they have electricity when you were young ??

I think working on it made me twice as old as I really am. All the shocks I think.

cast_iron

M cebee wrote: »

not really
for a start the rule covers more than inaccessible kitchen sockets

Apart from a flatscreen tv that happens to be mounted straight on the wall (I agree with your point above about it), there are not many. So if a sofa is to be placed in front a general socket that will supply a table lamp - isolator switch required?

and also your example of a live appliance
-you would turn off the accessible DP switch

page 308
re kitchen switches
'this is to enable the immediate disconnection of the appliance in the case of an emergency'

With the new rule putting the db at an accessible height, isolation from the board itself should be much easier than before. In any case, in such an emergency, it's quite likely the rcd will have tripped.

I'm all ears, but these rare occurances are not enough to convince me a house should have isolators all around the place.

Merch

There are switches that combine isolation switches into one unit, I have seen them in the UK, but not here.
They have named positions for each item, ie dishwasher, washing machine etc
Anyone know where they are available here/online?

It seems it would tidy up the mess of having DP isolators all over the place.

Does the same rational apply to fridges? not something you'd want to have switched off accidentally, but likely the socket could be inaccessible.

2011

Merch wrote: »

Does the same rational apply to fridges?

Yes.

not something you'd want to have switched off accidentally, but likely the socket could be inaccessible.

+1

If it is an integrated unit, which is all the rage now the chances are it will be very inaccessible.




Sure why not have clearly labeled switches at a single location that can isolated individual circuits and a single "main switch" at this location that can isolate everything?
This main switch could be designed to incorporate a fuse, 63A perhaps? .....Oh, er wait a minute :rolleyes:

Merch

2011 wrote: »

Sure why not have clearly labeled switches at a single location that can isolated individual circuits and a single "main switch" at this location that can isolate everything?
This main switch could be designed to incorporate a fuse, 63A perhaps? .....Oh, er wait a minute :rolleyes:

Ok, I see

I suppose it is open to interpretation then
But the only thing is if you wanted to isolate them individually and the wiring didnt allow that currently?
It is just that I've seen one in the UK that is located in the kitchen and has a number of switches on it labelled, I cant find one like it (searching online) just wondering if anyone here knew if they were available in Ireland or Online.

edit
like this
http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/neweys/pdf/literature/customer-guides/newlec-decorative-grid-and-av-modules.pdf

2011

Merch wrote: »

There are switches that combine isolation switches into one unit, I have seen them in the UK, but not here.
They have named positions for each item, ie dishwasher, washing machine etc
Anyone know where they are available here/online?

I think it is possible to make up a grid switch with 20A DP switches.

Merch

2011 wrote: »

I think it is possible to make up a grid switch with 20A DP switches.

Are these available? Its not something I have to do at the moment, when I was thinking of doing the kitchen I was looking for ways to not have a mess of switches on the wall and certainly not hidden at the back of cupboard.
I've read a few things and I can see, it could be difficult to manage a number of bundles of wiring together, I've seen it in the UK and I think it looks tidy, Ive never seen a gang of DP isolating switches here?

2011

Feast your eyes:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKK4896.html

.G.

Merch wrote: »

Ok, I see

I suppose it is open to interpretation then
But the only thing is if you wanted to isolate them individually and the wiring didnt allow that currently?
It is just that I've seen one in the UK that is located in the kitchen and has a number of switches on it labelled, I cant find one like it (searching online) just wondering if anyone here knew if they were available in Ireland or Online.

edit
like this
http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/neweys/pdf/literature/customer-guides/newlec-decorative-grid-and-av-modules.pdf

2011 wrote: »

I think it is possible to make up a grid switch with 20A DP switches.

We wired apartments in Santry in 07 with this sort of setup in the kitchen. It wasn't pre made but as 2011 says it was a grid of individual chrome DP switches and then a specially made and engraved face plate indicating which switch did what.We got them from a wholesaler based in Santry but any of them will sell grid switches.

It was pre the 4th edition though

2011

superg wrote: »

It was pre the 4th edition though

It seems like a viable option though.

M cebee

presumably these ganged isolators need to be 2m max from all appliances to comply in ireland?

is that still the rule here in the kitchen?