Biggest category of fare dodgers: people pretending to be pensioners

n97 mini

Barry Kenny on the lunchtime news on Newstalk.

Says the biggest category of fare evaders are old people pretending to have free travel passes, often borrowed from friends.

corktina

i would imagine abuse is widespread, i should think other pass holders lend them out too. Time for reform in the Public Transport sector methinks

schemingbohemia

I would have thought this was more of an issue for the bus companies than irish rail - the amount of "old" people tapping their pockets or showing their wallets when they get on the bus is huge, seldom enough to see a driver asking to see the actual pass.

the sooner they bring in a proper card the better.

coylemj

Hard to catch them unless they put more inspectors on the streets, the driver has to deal with the ticket machine and watch the display showing what people are doing at the swipe machine, can't see how he's expected to keep tabs on the people with passes as well.

There seems to be a large number of people under 65 (probably on disability) who have passes so even if someone is obviously not of an age to get the free pass they could still be genuinely entitled to free travel.

n97 mini

Another reason to bring back bus conductors too maybe?

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Another reason to bring back bus conductors too maybe?

Better yet a dedicated transport police with the power to arrest people for fraud and theft.

Too many people in Ireland think it isn't a big deal and sure just a little bit of fare dodging.

The same people who carry out these sort of crimes, don't really see it as crime, but would never dream of stealing as much as an apple from a shop.

Have a few people being dragged off the bus in handcuffs by uniformed officers and into the back of paddy wagons and have the original owners of the "borrowed" passes lose their entitlements and you would have a very quick change in peoples minds about fare dodging and if they are willing to take the risk of getting caught or not.

The whole area of policing and enforcement has a great deal of psychology involved, but the Guards, politicians, etc. don't seem to get that here in Ireland.

AlekSmart

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I would have thought this was more of an issue for the bus companies than irish rail - the amount of "old" people tapping their pockets or showing their wallets when they get on the bus is huge, seldom enough to see a driver asking to see the actual pass.

the sooner they bring in a proper card the better.

The real issue is for the State,in the form of the Department of Social Protection,who fund and operate the Free Travel scheme,of which it is decidely difficult to get statistics on.

The last mention of numbers I came upon was in a submission to an Oireachtas Committee when senior (Formerly) Dept of Social Welfare officials put forward a figure of circa 600,000 Passes in circulation.

This figure has to be put in the context of a total population of 4,581,269 (Census 2011)

Taking a rough estimate of 3,000,000 being over 16 and therefore age-qualifying for a Free Travel Pass in their own right that 600,000 Free Travel Passes assumes a somewhat significant relevance.

To the 600,000 has to be added the qualifying Partners,Spouses and Companions who may also have (and utilise) an entitlement to State wide Free Travel.

This could quite easily lead to a figure of c 750,000 Persons entitled to Free Travel.

It should also be noted that these figures do not take into account the substantial level of......"inappropriate" use,ie "Pas Holder Only" holders habitually bringing another person or the unquantified level of simply fraudulent usage.

The entire DSP Free Travel Scheme remains largely free from regular inspection or audit and it would seem that the Government regard it as one of the aids to mainting a largely compliant and docile population.

At some point,however,the figures will no longer stack-up,and the real question becomes...What happens then ?

The_Wrecker

Theres so many pictures online like this http://trusttommy.com/2010/08/06/neat/

They just download and print then stick it in a plastic slip.

Judgement Day

As always it comes down to revenue protection and the lack of it. IE's approach is usually hamfisted and they make a show of themselves by coming down heavy on easy targets while letting skangers have a free rein. There will be no change until IE is history.

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Theres so many pictures online like this http://trusttommy.com/2010/08/06/neat/

They just download and print then stick it in a plastic slip.

Oh God where will it end ?

While reluctant to personalize the issue,this lad immediately underlines yet another basic flaw in the DSP's own procedures.

In this case the recipient seems to believe that the DSP's Free Travel Document is an Irish Rail issued document.

Having clocked up 20 hours on the train this week alone, I can see myself really using the service that they’re providing a lot. Let alone it now being easier to go to Dublin on Saturdays to see friends, I’m also making the transition into going to physio appointments on my own (as opposed to with my folks) which means going up via train and getting public transport and/or walking to the appointment, and the lack of costs in that area (especially when Cerebral Palsy mounts costs in other ways) is really handy.

The issuance of a "Companion" (Green Stripe) Free Travel Pass is based upon a qualified Medical Practitioner certifying that the applicant is unable to use Public Transport unaccompanied.

Whilst this lad would appear to fully merit a Free Travel Pass,it would also appear that he can,generally,use Public Transport unaided.

It would seem to me that the entire area of entitlement and the certifying of it needs greater attention paid to it,because,to my mind,every questionable or non-entitled person travelling on a Free Pass is taking away from the ability to fund of the greater scheme for those who genuinely need its provision.

The_Wrecker

Another here http://www.adamsonluggage.com/shop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&product_id=154&flypage=flypage.tpl&pop=0

Just select enlarge and off you go to your printer.

coolperson05

This drives me mental! To think I spend upwards of 600/700 euro on train tickets a year (never mind Luas/DB) and people can just print one out for free?! Get rid of this and CIE would be one of Ireland's highest profit makers!! (hyperbole intended but point genuinely valid!)

Ireland!! :mad:

The_Wrecker

TrustTommy's is also on Flickr so you can blow it up to any size that suits, invest in a decent photoshop and head for the bus/train.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/itrusttommy/4865667988/

mickydoomsux

The level of abuse with these things is unreal.

In the past couple of months i've personally confiscated 5 fake passes (scanned, color printed fakes on white card) and pulled up numerous people using passes that aren't theirs. If i inform the DSP they just give you the brush off. Add to that the chancers trying to get their companion a ticket on a "pass holder only" pass which is a daily occurance.

The entire system is silly. More than half a million people traveling nationwide for free because they have a battered bit of cardboard that doesn't even have photo ID with it in most cases.

Some of the passes are so badly worn and damaged that they are illegible and if you tell the owner to get a replacement they usually just grumble at you and walk off. The few that listen don't know how to go about it and once you tell them they have to send off for a replacement they lose interest.

It's an utter farce. It'd be like a shop where half the customers are handing in possibly dodgy banknotes and the owner just has to hope for the best.

Cookie_Monster

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It's an utter farce. It'd be like a shop where half the customers are handing in possibly dodgy banknotes and the owner just has to hope for the best.

At least you can hand the notes back out as change

A part of the problem IMO is also the drivers that never check the passes. I've seen plenty who rightly insist but just as many have no interest at all and this compounds (rather than causes) the problem. People see this and know they can get away with crappy fakes a lot of the time and it helps perpetuate the problem.

That said, that is only a symptom rather than a cause and there badly needs to be a proper photo ID system with hologrammes etc to make faking it difficult. The idea of free travel should be abolished also, even make it a nominal amount of cash on DB / IC to ensure it's properly checked and people need to provide proof rather than pat their pockets and saunter on.

n97 mini

Time to do away with the Free Travel Pass? Let people pay for the tickets themselves and then claim the money back from the DSP?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh God where will it end ?

While reluctant to personalize the issue,this lad immediately underlines yet another basic flaw in the DSP's own procedures.

In this case the recipient seems to believe that the DSP's Free Travel Document is an Irish Rail issued document.



The issuance of a "Companion" (Green Stripe) Free Travel Pass is based upon a qualified Medical Practitioner certifying that the applicant is unable to use Public Transport unaccompanied.

Whilst this lad would appear to fully merit a Free Travel Pass,it would also appear that he can,generally,use Public Transport unaided.

It would seem to me that the entire area of entitlement and the certifying of it needs greater attention paid to it,because,to my mind,every questionable or non-entitled person travelling on a Free Pass is taking away from the ability to fund of the greater scheme for those who genuinely need its provision.

You should really contact the department and ask them about the companion pass and if the holder MUST be accompanied on any travel using the pass or if it is supplied for times when the holder can't travel without being accompanied. There are people entitled to travel who due to medical conditions would need to be accompanied at certain times, after treatment etc but who do not generally need this. Maybe it is an issue with the certifying medical practitioners giving companion passes in the wrong circumstances but afaik there is a list of conditions which entitle you to the companion pass automatically.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The level of abuse with these things is unreal.

In the past couple of months i've personally confiscated 5 fake passes (scanned, color printed fakes on white card) and pulled up numerous people using passes that aren't theirs. If i inform the DSP they just give you the brush off. Add to that the chancers trying to get their companion a ticket on a "pass holder only" pass which is a daily occurance.

The entire system is silly. More than half a million people traveling nationwide for free because they have a battered bit of cardboard that doesn't even have photo ID with it in most cases.

Some of the passes are so badly worn and damaged that they are illegible and if you tell the owner to get a replacement they usually just grumble at you and walk off. The few that listen don't know how to go about it and once you tell them they have to send off for a replacement they lose interest.

It's an utter farce. It'd be like a shop where half the customers are handing in possibly dodgy banknotes and the owner just has to hope for the best.

Where to start with this? The level of abuse is nothing more than in any other department.

Should you be posting about how you as an Irish rail employee dealt with certain customers? Does that not breach data protection or privacy or your own company guidelines? But well done on doing your job, That is what you get paid for is it not?

The entire system is silly? Maybe you should tell this to your local elected representatives instead of treating it like a topic for down the pub.

People many of whom have special needs or are illiterate have to fill out forms and get these stamped by their local Garda etc when they lose a pass and just fill out forms for a replacement if their pass is illegible but the process can take several weeks and these people many of whom don't have much disposable income have to pay for their travel during this time so they are understandably reluctant to get illegible passes replaced.

It's an utter farce as well as being silly?

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

You should really contact the department and ask them about the companion pass and if the holder MUST be accompanied on any travel using the pass or if it is supplied for times when the holder can't travel without being accompanied. There are people entitled to travel who due to medical conditions would need to be accompanied at certain times, after treatment etc but who do not generally need this. Maybe it is an issue with the certifying medical practitioners giving companion passes in the wrong circumstances but afaik there is a list of conditions which entitle you to the companion pass automatically.



Where to start with this? The level of abuse is nothing more than in any other department.

Should you be posting about how you as an Irish rail employee dealt with certain customers? Does that not breach data protection or privacy or your own company guidelines? But well done on doing your job, That is what you get paid for is it not?

The entire system is silly? Maybe you should tell this to your local elected representatives instead of treating it like a topic for down the pub.

People many of whom have special needs or are illiterate have to fill out forms and get these stamped by their local Garda etc when they lose a pass and just fill out forms for a replacement if their pass is illegible but the process can take several weeks and these people many of whom don't have much disposable income have to pay for their travel during this time so they are understandably reluctant to get illegible passes replaced.

It's an utter farce as well as being silly?

How has be broken any data protection or privacy rules? He hasn't identified anybody. You really are clutching at straws there.

S/He has spoken to DSP officials who don't seem to care so what more do you expect him/her to do?

Do you think the system works well? Do you think it's appropriate that there are so many passes in existance?

Nermal

n97 mini wrote: »

Time to do away with the Free Travel Pass? Let people pay for the tickets themselves and then claim the money back from the DSP?

Better yet, just do away with the scheme altogether.

-Chris-

foggy_lad wrote: »

Where to start with this? The level of abuse is nothing more than in any other department.

Should you be posting about how you as an Irish rail employee dealt with certain customers? Does that not breach data protection or privacy or your own company guidelines? But well done on doing your job, That is what you get paid for is it not?

The entire system is silly? Maybe you should tell this to your local elected representatives instead of treating it like a topic for down the pub.

People many of whom have special needs or are illiterate have to fill out forms and get these stamped by their local Garda etc when they lose a pass and just fill out forms for a replacement if their pass is illegible but the process can take several weeks and these people many of whom don't have much disposable income have to pay for their travel during this time so they are understandably reluctant to get illegible passes replaced.

It's an utter farce as well as being silly?

He obviously hasn't breached any data protection guidelines.

He's not posting as an official representative of his employer, he's posting personal experiences in a personal capacity. There's never been any confusion on this.

He is allowed to be proud of doing a good job, and I don't feel it's fair for you to make little of it. It reflects more on you than him tbh.

On the whole, the entire second half of your post smacks of snideness, and you would do well to reconsider your posting style.
I mean, why even bother pointing out that he's called it silly and an utter farce? Why is there even a problem with that?

I'm not sure if your post qualifies as Trolling, but I certainly suggest you should be more careful with your posting in future.

John R

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Do you think the system works well? Do you think it's appropriate that there are so many passes in existance?

As Foggy Lad is someone who extensively uses his "entitlement" to free travel I would imagine he is not in favour of any move towards curbing this joke of a scheme in fear that it is decided he should actually pay for the services he uses.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

You should really contact the department and ask them about the companion pass and if the holder MUST be accompanied on any travel using the pass or if it is supplied for times when the holder can't travel without being accompanied. There are people entitled to travel who due to medical conditions would need to be accompanied at certain times, after treatment etc but who do not generally need this. Maybe it is an issue with the certifying medical practitioners giving companion passes in the wrong circumstances but afaik there is a list of conditions which entitle you to the companion pass automatically.

Foggy,I have no need to contact the Department of Social Protection as they quite properly have their policy on the issuance of Companion Passes in the public domain.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/pages/freetravel.aspx#app1

Free Travel Passholders aged under 66

You are getting Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension or Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement and are medically assessed as unfit to travel alone.
You live in Health Service Executive (HSE) - approved residential care, and are mediaclly assessed as unfit to travel alone and you:
were previously getting Disability Allowance, or
are assessed as being medically suitable for Disability Allowance.
You are blind or severely visually impaired and you:
are getting a Blind Pension or
satisfy the blindness codition for the Blind Pension or
are registered as a blind person with either the National Council for the Blind of Ireland or the National League of the Blind of Ireland.
You are getting one of the qualifying payments listed at Section 3.2 and you are certified by either the Irish Wheelchair Association or by your GP as being a permanent wheelchair user.
You are receiving full-time care and attention from someone who is getting Carers Allowance from this Department. To qualify for a companion pass based on this condition, you must be entitled to a Free Travel Pass in your own right. See conditions for free travel (Section 3.2)

It's repeated several times in relation to several categories as "Medically assesed as unfit to travel alone"

I find this to be a very clear outline and not one which can be interpreted on a part-time basis.

The funding issues surrounding the Free Travel scheme are steadily coming to the forefront as the Inter- Departmental spending review continues apace.

The current level of entitlement is unsustainable,and will soon see major alterations in the administration of the Free Travel scheme.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Foggy,I have no need to contact the Department of Social Protection as they quite properly have their policy on the issuance of Companion Passes in the public domain.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/pages/freetravel.aspx#app1



It's repeated several times in relation to several categories as "Medically assesed as unfit to travel alone"

I find this to be a very clear outline and not one which can be interpreted on a part-time basis.

The funding issues surrounding the Free Travel scheme are steadily coming to the forefront as the Inter- Departmental spending review continues apace.

The current level of entitlement is unsustainable,and will soon see major alterations in the administration of the Free Travel scheme.

That is the policy on the issuance of the passes but they most likely have a different policy in place as to how the passes are to be used.

But if you believe that the policy is in fact how the pass should be used I hope you can put the policy into practice and whenever you are confronted by a single person using a companion pass you refuse to allow them travel free, according to your view of the policy this is what you and all transport staff should be doing.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Documents/sw40.pdf

I have read through the leaflet relating to free travel and nowhere does it mention that those with a companion pass MUST be accompanied, you would think that if that was what was required it would be highlighted and fully explained in the public information leaflet.

LXFlyer

Today's Irish Times has a comment piece on the Free Travel Scheme written by James Nix and Hassard Stacpoole....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1021/1224306218059.html

Review of expensive free travel scheme essential

JAMES NIX and HASSARD STACPOOLE

OPINION : Reform of the €77m-a-year scheme should bring free journeys into off-peak times and not discourage travel

SOME 700,000 people now avail of the free travel scheme which costs €77 million a year. Spending on the scheme has been capped at this level under the EU-International Monetary Fund bailout agreement, and this ceiling, together with wider capacity problems facing public transport, makes reform a must.

The numbers using public transport free of charge is causing capacity problems on buses and trains. Last month Jim Deegan, head of Railtours Ireland and a board member of the National Transport Authority, told a rail industry journal that the number of free travel passengers has resulted in fare-paying customers being “squeezed out”.

Deegan argues that the broad base and appeal of public transport is being undermined, pointing to a danger “the railway will lose its appeal to the general travelling public”. In the same article Iarnród Éireann chief executive Dick Fearn warned that the free travel scheme was presenting challenges for Government.

As the Republic’s population profile ages, the spending cap is, inexorably, rendering public transport unviable. Since last year the Department of Social Protection has declined to process any applications for free travel in respect of new public transport services – with the result that few applications are being submitted. The department is also not processing updated survey data showing a rising number of free travel pass customers on long-standing services. The result is that existing paying customers must pay more or the service ends, or is never provided in the first instance.

At the height of the boom – September 2006 – then minister for social welfare Séamus Brennan abolished the rule that travel pass holders pay at peak times. Brennan, however, significantly underestimated the cost – within three years State spending on the scheme had risen 30 per cent.
What can be done? Consideration needs to be given to reintroducing fares at peak times. The integrated ticketing system is being tested for introduction later this year with plans for an integrated free travel pass with photograph identification and signature.

The integrated free travel card will operate as a swipe in the greater Dublin area, where such ticketing is to be deployed first. Where integrated ticketing has not yet been rolled out – ie where there are no electronic readers – the proposed free travel pass card will operate as an ID entitling the holder to a ticket.

With these changes on the horizon it would not be difficult to reintroduce peak time fares for free travel passengers. Before September 2006 peak time fares were levied on urban buses – and only urban buses. Past anomalies will need to be resolved and there is a now a case to ask free travel customers also to pay for peak time rail journeys. However, where a peak time rail or bus journey costs more than €5 a discounted fare could be set for pass holders.

The benefits of free travel, particularly for older people, are obvious, and need to be brought to bear in reforming the system. By facilitating older people to make journeys they may not otherwise make, the scheme supports a more active older population, bringing clear health benefits. Reform should aim first and foremost to bring free travel journeys into off-peak periods, and not to discourage total travel.

If there is agreement that a system of peak time charges should be applied, then attention should shift to making that fair. (In areas served by infrequent services – and only run in the peaks – it would not be appropriate to charge. And where off-peak services do exist but are few and far between, an intermediate solution could be adopted, with peak journeys carrying a nominal charge of say 50 cent. A complete tariff exemption should be given for pass holders travelling at peak times to medical appointments).

Fare-paying customers have been hit hard since 2009. A 30-day Dublin Bus adult ticket has risen by €10 in the past 18 months to €110. The Republic faces a choice between leaving the free travel scheme frozen in its current form and confining price rises to paying customers, or asking all public transport users to share the burden on the other.

The difficulties in operating the free travel scheme in its post-2006 format are becoming more widely appreciated. The Department of Social Protection now needs to publish detailed proposals for reform well in advance of budget 2012. Consultation should be timely and comprehensive.

FREE TRAVEL: WHO QUALIFIES

There are three categories of free travel pass. Blue pass holders are over 66. Holders of a yellow pass are in receipt of a carer’s allowance, a disability allowance or unemployment assistance, while red pass holders have a long-term incapacity.

Before 2006 red pass holders were free at all times and holders of yellow and blue passes paid when boarding buses between 7am and 9am, and again between 4.30pm and 6.30pm. However, peak time payment did not apply to trains, an anomaly extended to trams on the 2004 introduction of the Luas.

When the free travel scheme was originally introduced in the 1960s there were few commuter rail services and the Dart was more than a decade away. Today, it is estimated that almost four million rail journeys are undertaken annually with the free travel pass, evenly split between commuter services in the Dublin area and the interurban rail network. Free travel now accounts for one-fifth of all journeys on intercity trains.

James Nix works with PlanBetter, an initiative of environmental groups An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Friends of the Irish Environment and Feasta. james@ien.ie.

Hassard Stacpoole works in media relations representing bus and light rail operators in the UK and writes regularly on transport matters. hassardstacpoole@hotmail.com

bk

First of all let me say I'm fully in support of the original spirit of the free travel scheme. To allow those who don't have any other way to travel to remain active part of the community. Being able to travel to doctor, going shopping, go to the local community center, etc.

However unfortunately we are seeing increasing levels of fraudulent use and an overly-broad scheme which both threaten to make the whole scheme unaffordable and therefore ruin it for those who really need and deserve it.

Here is what I think needs to be done to make the scheme workable:

1) Switch to contactless smart cards with photo ID, etc. on the front of it.

2) Require the users to tag on to use the card.

3) Allow the tag on only work at the reader next to the driver. So if the driver has time, s/he can check the picture on the id.

The above three points should help understand exactly how much the service is really being used and help eliminate fraudulent use with photocopied pieces of paper.

4) Allow the driver/ticket inspector/etc. to hold onto passes that aren't been used by the owner and send them to the Dept of Social Welfare who can then disqualify the owner of the card from free travel.

Would discourage people from allowing others to use the card.

5) Limit the free travel to off peak times only.

I always thought it was stupid that the free travel scheme was extended to all times. People don't need to travel during peak times in order to remain active part of the community.

If they do need to travel the odd time at peak times, they can pay like everyone else.

6) Intercity travel should be capped at €20 or €25. If the ticket is more, then you pay the difference.

This would encourage people to book early for cheap tickets on trains or take intercity buses for free. It is ridiculous that pass holders can just stroll onto a train with a €74 ticket when other much cheaper options for the same journey exist.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

First of all let me say I'm fully in support of the original spirit of the free travel scheme. To allow those who don't have any other way to travel to remain active part of the community. Being able to travel to doctor, going shopping, go to the local community center, etc.

However unfortunately we are seeing increasing levels of fraudulent use and an overly-broad scheme which both threaten to make the whole scheme unaffordable and therefore ruin it for those who really need and deserve it.

Here is what I think needs to be done to make the scheme workable:

1) Switch to contactless smart cards with photo ID, etc. on the front of it.

2) Require the users to tag on to use the card.

3) Allow the tag on only work at the reader next to the driver. So if the driver has time, s/he can check the picture on the id.

The above three points should help understand exactly how much the service is really being used and help eliminate fraudulent use with photocopied pieces of paper.

4) Allow the driver/ticket inspector/etc. to hold onto passes that aren't been used by the owner and send them to the Dept of Social Welfare who can then disqualify the owner of the card from free travel.

Would discourage people from allowing others to use the card.

5) Limit the free travel to off peak times only.

I always thought it was stupid that the free travel scheme was extended to all times. People don't need to travel during peak times in order to remain active part of the community.

If they do need to travel the odd time at peak times, they can pay like everyone else.

6) Intercity travel should be capped at €20 or €25. If the ticket is more, then you pay the difference.

This would encourage people to book early for cheap tickets on trains or take intercity buses for free. It is ridiculous that pass holders can just stroll onto a train with a €74 ticket when other much cheaper options for the same journey exist.

I would love to see solid statistics for the increasing levels of fraud but people don't realise that unless bus drivers and rail staff properly check the passes presented to them and confiscate those which are illegible or which don't have a photo when they should etc instead of harassing innocent people who are fully complient with the rules of the scheme by asking to see a passport and threatening to leave them stranded miles from home when they overstep their authority then there can be no proper record of how much fraud and mis-use is happening.

There is one small step which would cost nothing to implement but would cut down on the real fraud of people getting their hands on replacement passes when the original is still in circulation, if the photopass was made compulsory and only provided in local social welfare offices on production of a passport much of the fraud would be eliminated.

the groutch

there needs to be a return to the off-peak only travel cards imo.
Seamus Brennan's decision to extend it to 24/7 was purely trying to buy the grey vote at the time, and is not sustainable long term because the costs are passed on to the paying customers, with increases of approx 6% per year.

Victor

John R wrote: »

As Foggy Lad is someone who extensively uses his "entitlement" to free travel I would imagine he is not in favour of any move towards curbing this joke of a scheme in fear that it is decided he should actually pay for the services he uses.

Less of the snide personalisation please.

Could you give the source for their information on how Foggy Lad funds his travel on public transport?

foggy_lad

the groutch wrote: »

there needs to be a return to the off-peak only travel cards imo.
Seamus Brennan's decision to extend it to 24/7 was purely trying to buy the grey vote at the time, and is not sustainable long term because the costs are passed on to the paying customers, with increases of approx 6% per year.

What happened when harney tried to take the medical card off pensioners? Or when they tried to stop people claiming back the money deducted for years from their pensions when in state hospitals and nursing homes?

This government will fall if they try to take free travel from the pensioners or disabled especially when there is so much money thrown freely at the worst members of society.

Petty crime and anti social behaviour is rewarded with all the benefits those responsible can claim while decent members of society who have paid their dues get shafted once again!

Does anyone have any figures for how much a local career criminal costs the state in Garda and court resources as well as health service and probation service costs for them and their dysfunctional families and a lifetime on benefits for them all.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

This government will fall if they try to take free travel from the pensioners or disabled especially when there is so much money thrown freely at the worst members of society.

No they won't, not anymore.

Who are they going to vote for instead, FF? Suuurrre.

Given how strong and large the current government is, it is a perfect opportunity for them to roll back ridiculous extra entitlements like these that were handed out like candy during the good times.

monument

But foggy the suggestion isn't to take it off them it's to only restrict it at peak times and, even at that, to give them discounts where the fare is over €5 at peak.

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

Less of the snide personalisation please.

Could you give the source for their information on how Foggy Lad funds his travel on public transport?

With respect Victor, if a contributor works for a transport holding or has some level of a connection with some transport issue then there is a thread where we can declare this in case of a conflict of interest. On that basis, if somebody is passionate enough about or seemingly knows about a certain ticket/travel scheme then it is only reasonable to expect that they use and benefit from same.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would love to see solid statistics for the increasing levels of fraud but people don't realise that unless bus drivers and rail staff properly check the passes presented to them and confiscate those which are illegible or which don't have a photo when they should etc instead of harassing innocent people who are fully complient with the rules of the scheme by asking to see a passport and threatening to leave them stranded miles from home when they overstep their authority then there can be no proper record of how much fraud and mis-use is happening.

There is one small step which would cost nothing to implement but would cut down on the real fraud of people getting their hands on replacement passes when the original is still in circulation, if the photopass was made compulsory and only provided in local social welfare offices on production of a passport much of the fraud would be eliminated.

So drivers should check all passes but at the same time shouldn't check the passes of innocent people ?

How is the driver to know the innocent person ? Will they have yet another style of pass ?

I agree with the laudable aims behind this scheme but it does need reform and having a small cash outlay might be the very thing to dissuade the fakers.

Certainly a properly produced card allowing tag on/tag off would help as would the ability to properly punish miscreants with the full support of the authorities .

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

With respect Victor, if a contributor works for a transport holding or has some level of a connection with some transport issue then there is a thread where we can declare this in case of a conflict of interest. On that basis, if somebody is passionate enough about or seemingly knows about a certain ticket/travel scheme then it is only reasonable to expect that they use and benefit from same.

There are a lot of people very interested in trains and railway systems who do not regularly get trains and do not work for any railway either directly or indirectly.

Why must it be assumed by people that I or indeed anyone must have a free travel pass just because they can access the department of social protection website and read the information it contains?

On the issue of my travel arrangements, How I fund my travel by bus, taxi, train, boat, plane or whatever form of transport I decide upon is not relevant to any discussion here and I find it hard to understand how you are allowed discuss it here yet again after being warned at least once before not to speculate on any users personal situation.

I do not do any more than an average amount of travelling by public transport and iirc i have contributed to the conflict of interest thread a lot earlier than yourself even though i would have a lot less involvement or interest in transport and dont have any relatives employed by Irish rail or CIE.

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

So drivers should check all passes but at the same time shouldn't check the passes of innocent people ?

How is the driver to know the innocent person ? Will they have yet another style of pass ?

I agree with the laudable aims behind this scheme but it does need reform and having a small cash outlay might be the very thing to dissuade the fakers.

Certainly a properly produced card allowing tag on/tag off would help as would the ability to properly punish miscreants with the full support of the authorities .

Of course they should check all passes but asking demanding to see a passport and threatening someone with confiscating their pass if they cant provide identification they are not obliged to provide is a sign of someone who has issues with dealing with the disabled or is just a bully.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

parsi wrote: »

So drivers should check all passes but at the same time shouldn't check the passes of innocent people ?

How is the driver to know the innocent person ? Will they have yet another style of pass ?

I agree with the laudable aims behind this scheme but it does need reform and having a small cash outlay might be the very thing to dissuade the fakers.

Certainly a properly produced card allowing tag on/tag off would help as would the ability to properly punish miscreants with the full support of the authorities .

Of course they should check all passes but asking demanding to see a passport and threatening someone with confiscating their pass if they cant provide identification they are not obliged to provide is a sign of someone who has issues with dealing with the disabled or is just a bully.

So they have to just accept it if someone refuses to prove their eligibility ?

foggy_lad

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1021/1224306218059.html

FREE TRAVEL: WHO QUALIFIES

There are three categories of free travel pass. Blue pass holders are over 66. Holders of a yellow pass are in receipt of a carer’s allowance, a disability allowance or unemployment assistance, while red pass holders have a long-term incapacity.

Before 2006 red pass holders were free at all times and holders of yellow and blue passes paid when boarding buses between 7am and 9am, and again between 4.30pm and 6.30pm. However, peak time payment did not apply to trains, an anomaly extended to trams on the 2004 introduction of the Luas.

When the free travel scheme was originally introduced in the 1960s there were few commuter rail services and the Dart was more than a decade away. Today, it is estimated that almost four million rail journeys are undertaken annually with the free travel pass, evenly split between commuter services in the Dublin area and the interurban rail network. Free travel now accounts for one-fifth of all journeys on intercity trains.

Nobody on unemployment assistance will qualify for free travel, it is not a qualifying payment! Just shows how accurate the article writers are.

Also with the old system you could not get any Bus Eireann bus on a friday evening leaving Dublin, Cork, Weaterford, Galway or Limerick between 2.30pm and 8pm afaik

The numbers using public transport free of charge is causing capacity problems on buses and trains. Last month Jim Deegan, head of Railtours Ireland and a board member of the National Transport Authority, told a rail industry journal that the number of free travel passengers has resulted in fare-paying customers being “squeezed out”.

Deegan argues that the broad base and appeal of public transport is being undermined, pointing to a danger “the railway will lose its appeal to the general travelling public”. In the same article Iarnród Éireann chief executive Dick Fearn warned that the free travel scheme was presenting challenges for Government.

The railways have long ago lost their appeal to the travelling public but not because of free travel pass holders. The railways are losing customers because of late trains and trains which can't compete with busses which cost half as much and actually serve town centres etc

There are some free travle pass gougers who will drink and abuse other passengers on the trains but it is not the free travel that is causing the issue here it is Irish Rail's failure to have these people barred from using trains! the bye-laws for both rail and light rail allow for barring people from the railways for anti-social behaviour!

foggy_lad

parsi wrote: »

So they have to just accept it if someone refuses to prove their eligibility ?

It is not the drivers duty or job to check if a passenger is eligible but they are allowed chack if the person IS the person named on the pass, Currently the only way they can do this is by asking the person to provide a sample of their signiture and if it matches the signiture on the pass they must be allowed travel(unless there is some other breach of the rules or breach of the companys bye-laws). If there is no signiture on the pass it should be confiscated and returned immediately to the department.

One very cheap way of preventing duplicate passes and of ensuring that only the pass holder uses the pass is to take the issue of the photo pass out of the hands of CIE and give the responsibility to the social welfare offices, then make the photopass a compulsory part of the pass and only issue it to those whose identity has been properly verified by passport or Garda age id card. This way only the person who is entitled to use the pass will get a photo pass.

Currently if you had a pass and report it lost etc the department will issue you a new pass and you can give that to someone else and keep your old pass, the other person can then easily get a photopass in Dublin Bus or any CIE travel centre by bringing in the slip off the pass along with proof of your address like a gas bill or phone bill along with your social welfare pps card and the photopass will be issued in your name and address etc but with the other persons picture. this is just one way of defrauding the system.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are a lot of people very interested in trains and railway systems who do not regularly get trains and do not work for any railway either directly or indirectly.

Why must it be assumed by people that I or indeed anyone must have a free travel pass just because they can access the department of social protection website and read the information it contains?

On the issue of my travel arrangements, How I fund my travel by bus, taxi, train, boat, plane or whatever form of transport I decide upon is not relevant to any discussion here and I find it hard to understand how you are allowed discuss it here yet again after being warned at least once before not to speculate on any users personal situation.

I do not do any more than an average amount of travelling by public transport and iirc i have contributed to the conflict of interest thread a lot earlier than yourself even though i would have a lot less involvement or interest in transport and dont have any relatives employed by Irish rail or CIE.

Possibly it is because the minute somebody on here mentions any curtailment of the free travel scheme or any issue, you are involved in defending it while being critical of stories of staff members who allegedlystop people from using suspected illegally held passes; that and your interest in references on this forum to the scheme and in dept knowledge of the scheme would lead most people to guessing that you carry or possess such a pass. As the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire so you can't blame us for thinking otherwise

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Possibly it is because the minute somebody on here mentions any curtailment of the free travel scheme or any issue, you are involved in defending it while being critical of stories of staff members who allegedlystop people from using suspected illegally held passes; that and your interest in references on this forum to the scheme and in dept knowledge of the scheme would lead most people to guessing that you carry or possess such a pass. As the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire so you can't blame us for thinking otherwise

If any staff member has suspicions about any travel pass ot any ticket or indeed wanted a bit of help in ejecting some nasty element from a train or bus I would honestly fully support them whether in confiscating the pass and returning it to the department or in taking the ticket and issuing a fine or in getting rid of drinking troublemakers.

But if some bully-boy decides to overstep his authority and threaten some disabled person with confiscating their pass because they don't have a form of id they are not obliged to have thus leaving them stranded hundreds of miles from home I think the staff member should be sacked!

As for smoke and fire we all know where your alliegiences lie, deep within the cellers of Heuston station but hey there is nothing wrong with having a lifelong interest in railways or the history and developement of railways. If you have any evidence to show that i am in possession of a free travel pass please share it with us now.

-Chris-

The next person who attacks the poster rather than the post gets a week ban.

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

But if some bully-boy decides to overstep his authority and threaten some disabled person with confiscating their pass because they don't have a form of id they are not obliged to have thus leaving them stranded hundreds of miles from home I think the staff member should be sacked!

Oh strewth, this fable again :rolleyes:

foggy_lad wrote: »

As for smoke and fire we all know where your alliegiences lie, deep within the cellers of Heuston station but hey there is nothing wrong with having a lifelong interest in railways or the history and developement of railways.

I have no idea what you are on about here

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you have any evidence to show that i am in possession of a free travel pass please share it with us now.

As stated above, you do more than enough to leave people with that impression.

foggy_lad

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75050076&postcount=24

In the same article Iarnród Éireann chief executive Dick Fearn warned that the free travel scheme was presenting challenges for Government.

As the Republic’s population profile ages, the spending cap is, inexorably, rendering public transport unviable. Since last year the Department of Social Protection has declined to process any applications for free travel in respect of new public transport services – with the result that few applications are being submitted. The department is also not processing updated survey data showing a rising number of free travel pass customers on long-standing services. The result is that existing paying customers must pay more or the service ends, or is never provided in the first instance.

At the height of the boom – September 2006 – then minister for social welfare Séamus Brennan abolished the rule that travel pass holders pay at peak times. Brennan, however, significantly underestimated the cost – within three years State spending on the scheme had risen 30 per cent.
What can be done? Consideration needs to be given to reintroducing fares at peak times. The integrated ticketing system is being tested for introduction later this year with plans for an integrated free travel pass with photograph identification and signature.

The integrated free travel card will operate as a swipe in the greater Dublin area, where such ticketing is to be deployed first. Where integrated ticketing has not yet been rolled out – ie where there are no electronic readers – the proposed free travel pass card will operate as an ID entitling the holder to a ticket.

With these changes on the horizon it would not be difficult to reintroduce peak time fares for free travel passengers. Before September 2006 peak time fares were levied on urban buses – and only urban buses. Past anomalies will need to be resolved and there is a now a case to ask free travel customers also to pay for peak time rail journeys. However, where a peak time rail or bus journey costs more than €5 a discounted fare could be set for pass holders.

The benefits of free travel, particularly for older people, are obvious, and need to be brought to bear in reforming the system. By facilitating older people to make journeys they may not otherwise make, the scheme supports a more active older population, bringing clear health benefits. Reform should aim first and foremost to bring free travel journeys into off-peak periods, and not to discourage total travel.

If there is agreement that a system of peak time charges should be applied, then attention should shift to making that fair. (In areas served by infrequent services – and only run in the peaks – it would not be appropriate to charge. And where off-peak services do exist but are few and far between, an intermediate solution could be adopted, with peak journeys carrying a nominal charge of say 50 cent. A complete tariff exemption should be given for pass holders travelling at peak times to medical appointments).

Fare-paying customers have been hit hard since 2009. A 30-day Dublin Bus adult ticket has risen by €10 in the past 18 months to €110. The Republic faces a choice between leaving the free travel scheme frozen in its current form and confining price rises to paying customers, or asking all public transport users to share the burden on the other.

The difficulties in operating the free travel scheme in its post-2006 format are becoming more widely appreciated. The Department of Social Protection now needs to publish detailed proposals for reform well in advance of budget 2012. Consultation should be timely and comprehensive.

It is understandable how the likes of Dick Fearns and Barry Kenny and the grosslymisinformed will accuse pensioners of mass organised fraud when the evidence is much clearer that the punitive fines structure, slow and late trains, dirty trains, trains with no snack cars, trains that dont connect, trains with no destination displayed inside or out etc etc are the reasons why people are shifting to alternative transport options.

Even something like a 3car set or short dart set pulling right to the end of the platform on a cold morning forcing people to chase it down to have some chance of a seat drives people back to their cars and when they have enjoyed their cars for a while they are unlikely to return to the train!

Pensioners and the disabled are already less likely to be using trains during peak hours so will be less likely to take up seats usually used by commuters, the main thing is there has always been a lack of peak time capacity on all Irish Rail services except for the Western Rail Corridor.

-Chris-

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As stated above, you do more than enough to leave people with that impression.

Drop. It. Now.

-Chris-

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is understandable how the likes of Dick Fearns and Barry Kenny and the grosslymisinformed will accuse pensioners of mass organised fraud when the evidence is much clearer that the punitive fines structure, slow and late trains, dirty trains, trains with no snack cars, trains that dont connect, trains with no destination displayed inside or out etc etc are the reasons why people are shifting to alternative transport options.

Is this actually a thread about people shifting to alternative transport options, or are you just taking the opportunity for a quick rant because you're not allowed to attack the poster, but you feel you need to take some kind of swipe in petty revenge.

I'm getting really tired of this.

foggy_lad

-Chris- wrote: »

Is this actually a thread about people shifting to alternative transport options, or are you just taking the opportunity for a quick rant because you're not allowed to attack the poster, but you feel you need to take some kind of swipe in petty revenge.

I'm getting really tired of this.

Part of that post was in answer to this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75050076&postcount=24 where the thread does go off topic slightly, apologies for keeping it off topic

-Chris-

foggy_lad wrote: »

Part of that post was in answer to this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75050076&postcount=24 where the thread does go off topic slightly, apologies for keeping it off topic

I've read the post. I see no mention of modal shift due to poor service. It's a pity you're not big enough to admit you were just taking a swipe, and instead have resorted to trying to justify the post with some tenuous link.

The constant badgering of people (from both sides of the fence) has become very, very frustrating.

foggy_lad

-Chris- wrote: »

I've read the post. I see no mention of modal shift due to poor service. It's a pity you're not big enough to admit you were just taking a swipe, and instead have resorted to trying to justify the post with some tenuous link.

The constant badgering of people (from both sides of the fence) has become very, very frustrating.

The link was more about capacity issues and how these would surely be exaccerbated by pensioners abusing the free travel scheme and other elderly people pretending to be pensioners but I fail to see how they could do this if they do not possess a free travel pass as surely they would not be allowed on the train without the appropriate ticket?

Yes the link may have been tenous but i considered it relevant

I wont be responding to anymore personal attacks or flaming like has been directed at me in this thread, in future I will report posts I feel are not appropriate or which are out of line and hopefully temperatures all round will remain lower.

I would ask again that Losty Dublin and John R provide whatever evidence they have of my possession or use of any free travel pass either lawfully or illegally or could they please refrain from making any remarks about it.

TheChrisD

bk wrote: »

5) Limit the free travel to off peak times only.

I always thought it was stupid that the free travel scheme was extended to all times. People don't need to travel during peak times in order to remain active part of the community.

Actually, in order to do what I do in the community, I have to travel at peak times in the opposite direction to the rush. Should people like me still be charged even though we're not exacerbating a situation?

bk wrote: »

This would encourage people to book early for cheap tickets on trains or take intercity buses for free. It is ridiculous that pass holders can just stroll onto a train with a €74 ticket when other much cheaper options for the same journey exist.

Problem with that is that currently a free travel recipient cannot pre-book anything, either online or in the station, at the hatch or at a TVM. No functionality exists for it. I suppose it's to prevent people from just making a load of fraudulent bookings with it.

foggy_lad wrote: »

But if some bully-boy decides to overstep his authority and threaten some disabled person with confiscating their pass because they don't have a form of id they are not obliged to have thus leaving them stranded hundreds of miles from home I think the staff member should be sacked!

I had this nearly happen to me a couple of times on the bus. Technically, according to the conditions of the free travel pass, I am not actually required to even have the Photo ID card in it because I live in Meath. But the driver/inspector was having none of it, and it was only because I actually had my passport on me at those times that it wasn't taken from me.

So I had to go out of my way to go into Dublin Bus head office to get the ID card in it so that it hopefully wouldn't happen again.

Jimoslimos

bk wrote: »

....but would never dream of stealing as much as an apple from a shop.

Careful now, dangerously close to the anti-piracy motto 'you wouldn't steal a car':pac:

n97 mini wrote: »

Time to do away with the Free Travel Pass? Let people pay for the tickets themselves and then claim the money back from the DSP?

Potentially even more susceptible for abuse.

bk wrote: »

1) Switch to contactless smart cards with photo ID, etc. on the front of it.

2) Require the users to tag on to use the card.

3) Allow the tag on only work at the reader next to the driver. So if the driver has time, s/he can check the picture on the id.

Totally agree, another advantage of having this in place is the computer can automatically flag up suspicious journeys for investigation - i.e. Mon-Fri peak hours - although there would be data protection and privacy issues to overcome

foggy_lad

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Careful now, dangerously close to the anti-piracy motto 'you wouldn't steal a car':pac:


Potentially even more susceptible for abuse.


Totally agree, another advantage of having this in place is the computer can automatically flag up suspicious journeys for investigation - i.e. Mon-Fri peak hours - although there would be data protection and privacy issues to overcome

The new cards with photo imprinted will reduce a lot of the opportunist fraud but may not stop organised criminals forging the cards, But it is definitely a great improvement whenever it is rolled out by the DSP free travel section. In the interim a system of requiring every pass holder to have a photopass issued by their local welfare office or even a requirement to carry a passport or Garda Id card would help but I fear this may require legislation to implement.

The new cards should hopefully be able to be used anonymously for compiling statistics which could lead to service improvements.