Irish Nationalists and Freemasons

Madra98

I was wondering if someone who has quite a strong grip on Irish nationalism and histroy, could he ever possibly justify being a Freemason. I just found out that someone that I am aware of is a Freemason. And it baffles me. The idea of Freemasonry is supposed to join all men together in a unity of brotherhood free of Religion and sectarianism. Yet while three quarters of the Irish population were in abject slavery and starving on tennant farms, these men where in their lodges stuffing themselves on gourment food and fine wines. Not to mention that during the 1798 Rebellion when men Catholic and Protestant were willing to put aside their differences and work together, the Freemasons demanded that any man with United Irish beliefes be purged from lodges ( Mainly in the North ) Surely if the founding fathers of America were Freemasons they are more than used to some open Rebellion. And surely the United Irishmens beliefs of uniting all men together should have appealed to the Freemasons. We also cannot forget the link between Scottish rite masonry and the Orange Order. Not to mention their anti Catholic agenda throughout the years ( my own local lodge was first opened after all the men attended a protestant mass although they are supposed to be non religious ) If what they say is true, that they are a fraternity that are highly motivated towards charity and fund raising I would have no problem with them, but is that true ? Now dont get me wrong I am not sectarian but I am not quite sure that the Freemasons can consider themselves non sectarian with those and many more facts in mind.

Sleepy

Old men dress up, get drunk and follow old rituals that their group have done for doneys years and then donate to local charities. What's there to care about?

I see no more harm in a bunch of unionist leaning men gathering in their lodge to get pissed than I do a bunch of republicans howling Wolfe Tone songs whilst wearing their celtic jerseys in a bar in Carlow tbh.

Madra98

Sleepy wrote: »

Old men dress up, get drunk and follow old rituals that their group have done for doneys years and then donate to local charities. What's there to care about?

I see no more harm in a bunch of unionist leaning men gathering in their lodge to get pissed than I do a bunch of republicans howling Wolfe Tone songs whilst wearing their celtic jerseys in a bar in Carlow tbh.

I am not talking about a bunch of guys singing OH AH UP THE RA In a pub. I am talking about an intelligent well eductaed individual with Nationalistic thoughts. The question is due to the course of history are the two ( Freemasonry and Nationalism) at odds.

Red Hand

Many people use freemasonry (or golf/tennis/rugby/idealogical stances) to advance their positions and status. Jeez, it even depends on whether you are a regular at church (and which church) in the case of Obama.

I wouldn't see freemasonry and nationalism at odds. Think of all the people throughout history who were freemasons and nationalistic. Churchill, nearly all the American Revolution patriots, Rudyard Kipling, Daniel O Connell etc. "Brotherhood of men" can be interpreted any way you like...which "men" are to be your brothers?

robroy1234

To consider this - I am very much a staunch Irish nationalist (not in the sense as in the BNP in the UK) but, Republican and born and raised a Catholic. I am also a Freemason and have been for quite a few years, and I enjoy the meetings etc., For further clarification on the history of Freemasonry here in Ireland you could visit the Grand Lodge in Dublin, or a lodge that has a museum attached such as North Munster. There have been many weird and wonderful myths built up over the years and comical as they are we only request three requirements for entry into our fraternity 1. be of full masonic age (21 years) 2. be in good standing in your neighbourhood (i.e. no criminal record) and 3. believe in a supreme being (regardless to whom you choose that supreme to be).

As for all the other stuff including bringing up the devil to create the night of the great wind of 1839.....all far fetched and with humorous regret - untrue.

But, if it makes you feel any better, you can feel free to imagine me as a godfather-mafia figure, twitching my fiendship moustache, and plotting your demise - even if I don't have a clue to who you are.

p.s. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

robroy1234

Madra98 - there have been prominant Irish leaders, even during the Easter rising who were freemasons, but with the Catholic Church's power and authority made these men keep such matters known only to themselves. The Catholic Church previously brought down Irish Nationalism in the 19th Century by attacking Parnell so much so that the Church itself went against the wishes of the Irish people. Prior to that church did very little to help the starving people - one bishop in Kerry fled to an Island off the coast so not to share his own provisions. If you visit places such as Foxford, County Mayo, you will see where freemasonry and the church worked together. But, certain leaders before, during and after the Easter Rising, the War of Independence and the Civil War knew that their membership had to be kept quiet in not to inflame the church and tear apart the newly formed Independant state.

Denerick

I think its a fairly silly reservation to have. The Freemasons were/are a gentlemans club for people of a liberal or progessive persuasion. Daniel O'Connell was a freemason until the Pope prohibited it.

Conspiracy theorists like to exaggerate this groups importance in western history, mainly because it is so shrouded in secrecy.

Absolam

Madra98, I think you might be taking a very narrow view of Freemasonry in Ireland. No doubt there were some Freemasons stuffing themselves on gourmet food and fine wines whilst at the same time there were Freemasons starving on tenant farms; it wasn't Masonry that divided them, it was class and nationality.
Freemasons are charged (these days anyway!) "to be a quiet and peaceable subject, true to your government, and just to your country; you are not to countenence disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live." That may have been observed more in the breach when you consider the likes of the American Revolution, but strictly speaking it would have been unMasonic to support the United Irishmen. Just as strictly speaking it would be unMasonic to support any paramilitary group (either Loyalist or Republican) now. However, since discussion of politics is forbidden in Lodges, how it would be decided that someone was behaving unMasonically is difficult to call!
There is/was no link between Scottish Rite Freemasonry and the Orange Order; the Orange Order was formed by individuals who were Freemasons and wholesale copied ritual forms and structures from Freemasonry, but no Masonic body is, was, or will be, associated with the Orange Order.

Freemasonry does not have an anti Catholic agenda; quite the opposite in fact, it's the Catholic Church that takes issue with Freemasonry. I'm not sure how you know what happened when your local lodge first opened? Perhaps the members were attending a Protestant service because they were all Protestants? Freemasons are not non religious; most would be fairly religious in my opinion, but Freemasonry admits anyone who professes a belief in a Supreme Being, regardless of their religion.

Having hopefully cleared up those points (happy to address the many more if you like!), I'll finish by saying Freemasons (like myself) don't consider themselves non sectarian, because that implies sectarianism is something we need to consider. Freemasonry is not a religion, and permits no discussion of religion for the very good reason that religion causes division between people who would otherwise get along just fine. So rather than non sectarian, you might consider us asectarian .

The Corinthian

Madra98 wrote: »

Now dont get me wrong I am not sectarian but I am not quite sure that the Freemasons can consider themselves non sectarian with those and many more facts in mind.

Freemasonry varies greatly from organization to organization. In most cases, they tended to be humanistic and, if anything, republican in character - such as those lodges that were typical of the founding fathers of the USA, in the eighteenth century, or groups such as the Carbonari in Italy, in the nineteenth century.

It is easy to consider Freemasonry sectarian, but in reality it is anti-clerical in nature. Modern Freemasonry was largely a product of the Enlightenment, when deistic and humanistic views were all the rage, and in this regard organized religions reacted belligerently against them - in particular the Roman Catholic Church, which went so far as to set up crypto-Freemasonry alternatives in the shape of the Knights of Columbanus (and arguably Opus Dei later).

In Ireland Freemasonry was not a unified group. Most Freemasonry was populated by protestants, but this is largely because the majority of Catholics tended to lack the social and educational status to be able join - those Catholics that did have this social and educational status did actually join, as has already been pointed out with the example of Daniel O'Connell.

The 'problem' with Freemasonry is that Nationalism/Unionism has been largely divided on religious grounds, for the last century or so. As such the Orange Order, which is only one form of Irish Freemasonry, expanded the concept of anti-clericalism to encompass Roman Catholicism in general. This is easy to understand if you consider the influence that Roman Catholicism had on nationalism from the latter of the nineteenth century onwards - borne out by the fact that Ireland was heavily influenced by Roman Catholic policy up until the 1990's (divorce, abortion, contraception, education, etc).

It is also interesting to note that the Orange Order actually only enjoyed revivals whenever Nationalism became more identified with Catholicism - not the other way around.

Certainly in predominantly protestant or multi-denominational societies, Freemasonry can turn sectarian, but one should not forget that this is more an extreme manifestation of the anti-clerical nature of Freemasonry, rather than being essential to Freemasonry. In predominantly Catholic countries such as Italy, France, Spain, Hungary or Austria, masonic groups are not sectarian for obvious reasons.

For the record, I am not a Freemason, am Roman Catholic and have little time for either Unionism or Nationalism. Or religion in general, TBH.

Emme

I always thought that the French Revolution of 1789 and the Irish Revolution of 1798 stemmed from a European/Enlightenment/Masonic beginning. Here is an interesting link:

http://www.munsterfreemason.com/Freemasonry_in_Ireland.htm

Wexford and Carlow have a strong history of Freemasonry. They were also very involved in the 1798 rebellion. Wealthy protestants such as Bagenal Harvey took part in the 1798 rebellion. Freemasons have been linked to Irish nationalism in the past.

"Irish Freemasonry was one of the few organisations that provided a meeting place for men of all faiths and politics to meet as one. Amongst our membership were men like Aymas Griffiths, Henry Joy McCracken, Thomas Russell, Lord Edward Fitzgerald and Daniel O’Connell (the Liberator) , and it was only in the 1840’s when Papal Bulls were enforced, that our roman catholic Brethren were forced to withdraw from membership of the Masonic Order in Ireland. Their loss had a dramatic effect on Masonic membership throughout the Irish Constitution."

For more see this website:

http://www.irishfreemasonry.com/index.php?p=1_55_Inishowen-Friends-of-Messines

Morlar

robroy1234 wrote: »

....... there have been prominant Irish leaders, even during the Easter rising who were freemasons,

...... certain leaders before, during and after the Easter Rising, the War of Independence and the Civil War knew that their membership had to be kept quiet ......

Who exactly are you referring to ?

Why should I believe this claim (assuming you respond with name(s) ?

robroy1234

Morlar - the obvious people of course and those previously mentioned....

Morlar

robroy1234 wrote: »

Morlar - the obvious people of course and those previously mentioned....

Sorry but I am having a hard time believing that.

I personally know a descendant of McCracken who fought at the battle of Antrim on the United Irishmen side and was a mason, so I have no doubt about that one obviously.

However as far as Independence era Irish nationalist leaders (1916 Rising, War of Independence, Irish Civil War) being masons? ? ? I would not be surprised if there were members on the peripherary but that they played a key role or were among the leadership I have seen no evidence of this at all.

robroy1234

April 13th 1922 anti-treaty forces took over the Four Courts, the Ballast Office and the Masonic Hall...they knew exactly where certain members of those who took part and led the independence movement met...

The Corinthian

Wow. It's been a while since I'd seen civil war politics rear it's head in discussion. I'd thought all you guys had died of old age by now.

robroy1234

Nah - family tradition means holding a grudge for many years....

cocaholic

Just saw the the thread starter (haven't read all the posts) and while a lot of Irish nationalists were Anglo-Irish Anglicans, a majority are/were Roman Catholics and the Catholic Church has forbidden Catholics from joining the Freemasonry.

cocaholic

Absolam wrote: »

Madra98, I think you might be taking a very narrow view of Freemasonry in Ireland. No doubt there were some Freemasons stuffing themselves on gourmet food and fine wines whilst at the same time there were Freemasons starving on tenant farms; it wasn't Masonry that divided them, it was class and nationality.
Freemasons are charged (these days anyway!) "to be a quiet and peaceable subject, true to your government, and just to your country; you are not to countenence disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal authority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live." That may have been observed more in the breach when you consider the likes of the American Revolution, but strictly speaking it would have been unMasonic to support the United Irishmen. Just as strictly speaking it would be unMasonic to support any paramilitary group (either Loyalist or Republican) now. However, since discussion of politics is forbidden in Lodges, how it would be decided that someone was behaving unMasonically is difficult to call!
There is/was no link between Scottish Rite Freemasonry and the Orange Order; the Orange Order was formed by individuals who were Freemasons and wholesale copied ritual forms and structures from Freemasonry, but no Masonic body is, was, or will be, associated with the Orange Order.

Freemasonry does not have an anti Catholic agenda; quite the opposite in fact, it's the Catholic Church that takes issue with Freemasonry. I'm not sure how you know what happened when your local lodge first opened? Perhaps the members were attending a Protestant service because they were all Protestants? Freemasons are not non religious; most would be fairly religious in my opinion, but Freemasonry admits anyone who professes a belief in a Supreme Being, regardless of their religion.

Having hopefully cleared up those points (happy to address the many more if you like!), I'll finish by saying Freemasons (like myself) don't consider themselves non sectarian, because that implies sectarianism is something we need to consider. Freemasonry is not a religion, and permits no discussion of religion for the very good reason that religion causes division between people who would otherwise get along just fine. So rather than non sectarian, you might consider us asectarian .

A general question out of interest, women can't join the Freemasons in certain places? why is that so?

Morag

Because it is a fraternity.

There are some women for whom their gender is not consider an issue, such as the current queen of England for her rank as a monarch negates her gender.

There are self styled lodges who's members are completely female and rare ones which admit both genders but these are considered to not be 'regular' and are not recognised by the Mainstream Grand Lodges.

And then there are sister orders which were set up in some countries for women,
A bit like when Baden Powel was aghast at girls wanting to be 'Boy' Scouts and refused to admit them and so his siser Anges set up Girl Guides.

In the US during the 1800's, a group designed for women but including men, the Order of the Eastern Star, was created. OES was readily embraced by US Masonry and Masonic buildings throughout the country were made available for their meetings. Eastern Star rules required that the primary officer of the lodge be female (Worthy Matron), but also mandated that at her side was a male Mason (holding the position of near equal importance, that of Worthy Patron). Those in the US saw Eastern Star as a way to 'share' the fraternalism of the Masonic family; those in Great Britain seemed to perceive it more as an incursion into Masonry by women which they felt was unacceptable.

If you wish to know more then I suggest you read here,

http://www.masonicinfo.com/women.htm
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/women.html

robroy1234

Cocaholic - the question about Catholicism and Freemasonry stems from the Vatican but doesn't at all stop many Irish Catholics becoming Freemasons, myself included. When the Vatican failed to get rid of Freemasonry in certain countries the Church created its own fraternal organisations loosely based on freemasonry, such as the Knights of St. Columba, and The Catenians. The only occasions when the church has been successful in stamping out freemasonry is when it does so in allegiance with totalitarian dictatorships such as Italy with Mussolini's Fascists, Spain with Franco's Fascists and Germany with Hilter's Nazis...

HavingCrack

robroy1234 wrote: »

Cocaholic - the question about Catholicism and Freemasonry stems from the Vatican but doesn't at all stop many Irish Catholics becoming Freemasons, myself included. When the Vatican failed to get rid of Freemasonry in certain countries the Church created its own fraternal organisations loosely based on freemasonry, such as the Knights of St. Columba, and The Catenians. The only occasions when the church has been successful in stamping out freemasonry is when it does so in allegiance with totalitarian dictatorships such as Italy with Mussolini's Fascists, Spain with Franco's Fascists and Germany with Hilter's Nazis...

Interestingly, a significant number of Nationalist military commanders during the Spanish Civil War were either known or suspected freemasons-Queipo de Llano, Mola and Yague were the most notable. Due to Church pressure most of these were sidelined in the political stakes.

robroy1234

Religion and Politics do not mix.....my parent's rule was that at parties and get togethers, religion and politics are not discussed, as they cause terrible arguments and divisions. The same applies to Freemasonry.

cocaholic

robroy1234 wrote: »

Cocaholic - the question about Catholicism and Freemasonry stems from the Vatican but doesn't at all stop many Irish Catholics becoming Freemasons, myself included. When the Vatican failed to get rid of Freemasonry in certain countries the Church created its own fraternal organisations loosely based on freemasonry, such as the Knights of St. Columba, and The Catenians. The only occasions when the church has been successful in stamping out freemasonry is when it does so in allegiance with totalitarian dictatorships such as Italy with Mussolini's Fascists, Spain with Franco's Fascists and Germany with Hilter's Nazis...

Why is the Vatican so against Freemasonry?

The Corinthian

cocaholic wrote: »

Why is the Vatican so against Freemasonry?

Philosophical, but ultimately political and historical reasons.

Freemasonry is Deistic and as this tends to reject revealed religion and to be anti-clerical, and hence those organizations that are custodians to the revealed religions. Thus it was natural for the most hierarchical of all such custodians to be hostile against anyone who denies their authority.

A second reason can be found in the historical context of the eighteenth and nineteenth century Italy. Freemasonry was a magnet for new concepts such as nationalism at this time (as evidenced by the US founding fathers and even Irish nationalists).

In Italy, which was a collection of fragmented states, the Papal States, which controlled much of central Italy, was seen by many Italian nationalists as the greatest obstacle against unification. As many of these were or came from Freemasonry (such as the Carbonari), they - and Freemasonry - constituted a direct threat to the temporal power of the Church.

The Church's practice of excommunicating those who threatened her temporal power was not limited to Freemasons; when Italy was finally united by the house of Savoy (which involved the annexation of Papal lands, including Rome), every king of Italy, as well as any high ranking politician of the Kingdom was excommunicated automatically - a practice that continued until the Lateran Treaty of 1929.

robroy1234

Why is the Vatican so against Freemasonry?

Why is water wet? my own personal view is that the Vatican has always need to have an enemy to battle with, these also include Pro-choice, Scientists, Evolutionists, and anyone with a sense of humour...On the whole I find the extremists in all religions not only oppose freemasonry, but violently oppose all of the above. The main problem I see with these religions, and not the Vatican alone, is when they start to dictate on matters concerning politics, economics, medicine, society and law.