Clamping

hamhead

HI folks i live in a private estate and as a way of getting people to pay the management fees the management company has decided to introduce permit parking to the area and will only issue permits to those who have paid the fees. I would like know peoples opinion on this ? And do you think this is something that we will see more of from these companys as a way to get there money.:mad:

m.j.w

seems resonable enough, you should be paying your fees and if you do you will get your permit

uberwolf

the management company can typically only introduce these types of changes with the passing of a vote of the majority of the members available at a general meeting. So this is likely to be a decision of your peers.

There can hardly be much complaint that you should have to pay to use the services that you've contracted to pay for?

Milk & Honey

A lot depends on the terms of the leases. Managing agents often think they can do what they like by having resolutions passed by the management company but this is often not the case.

jd

Seems to getting more common
eg
http://www.neighbours.ie/dublin/showthread.php?t=27201

A very, very reluctant last resort I'm afraid, fact is the sheriff has served notice on the Management Company (i.e. each homeowner) over an unpaid bill & they're looking to force us into liquidation. This has extreme consequences such as an additional court ordered levy being charged to each household, not being able to sell your home (even if you could - lol) and loads more.

WHIP IT!

hamhead wrote: »

HI folks i live in a private estate and as a way of getting people to pay the management fees the management company has decided to introduce permit parking to the area and will only issue permits to those who have paid the fees. I would like know peoples opinion on this ? And do you think this is something that we will see more of from these companys as a way to get there money.:mad:

Is this legal? Voted on by the resident's association or otherwise? Sounds terribly strange to me.

hamhead

Thanks for that seems to be a situation like the one where i live very annoying to see clampers coming to a place where parking is not a problem to begin with.

hamhead

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Is this legal? Voted on by the resident's association or otherwise? Sounds terribly strange to me.

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

WHIP IT!

hamhead wrote: »

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

Yes, but does that make it legal? How can they just decide to make up a shortfall elsewhere by taking away people's parking rights??

I would get legal advice straightaway. By all means pay your Maintenance etc, but this threat of introducing clamping to get their way doesn't seem legal to me.

athtrasna

hamhead wrote: »

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Is this legal? Voted on by the resident's association or otherwise? Sounds terribly strange to me.

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

would have to be the management company ie the majority of all owners present at an AGM/EGM. Residents associations have no legal standing.

Bluefoam

hamhead wrote: »

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

1) if you own your apartment & parking space, they have no right to clamp you - its your property.

2) The law is a bit vague around the issue of private companies clamping - if a private company (not the council) detain your vehicle against you will, you may remove the clamp by any means at your disposal - think angle grinder...

* this is not intended as legal advice, so check it out first.

jd

Bluefoam wrote: »

1) if you own your apartment & parking space, they have no right to clamp you - its your property.

Your apartment would be held under a lease, and normally you don't "own" the parking space, you have a licence to use it.

You'd need to look at the lease and the articles and memorandum of association of the management company.

{ianal}

hamhead

WHIP IT! wrote: »

hamhead wrote: »

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

Yes, but does that make it legal? How can they just decide to make up a shortfall elsewhere by taking away people's parking rights??

I would get legal advice straightaway. By all means pay your Maintenance etc, but this threat of introducing clamping to get their way doesn't seem legal to me.

I would like to think you are right having checked into the minutes from the last AGM
The 23 people in attendance took a seceret ballot of which 20 of them decided that clamping would be brought into the estate. They say it will improve Parking in the estate but unless you have paid your fees you will not be entitled to a parking permit and you will be clamped. It seems to be more about revenue for the management company than anything else.

hamhead

Bluefoam wrote: »

hamhead wrote: »

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

1) if you own your apartment & parking space, they have no right to clamp you - its your property.

2) The law is a bit vague around the issue of private companies clamping - if a private company (not the council) detain your vehicle against you will, you may remove the clamp by any means at your disposal - think angle grinder...

[SIZE="1"]* this is not intended as legal advice, so check it out first.[/SIZE]

I don't think the parking space actully belongs to me unfortunately.

The angle grinder sounds like a good plan ha ha.

hamhead

athtrasna wrote: »

hamhead wrote: »

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Is this legal? Voted on by the resident's association or otherwise? Sounds terribly strange to me.

As far as i know it was voted in by the residents committee

would have to be the management company ie the majority of all owners present at an AGM/EGM. Residents associations have no legal standing.

The management company is made up has some of the residents sitting on its board as far as I'm aware I'm not really sure about this situation

athtrasna

hamhead wrote: »

They say it will improve Parking in the estate but unless you have paid your fees you will not be entitled to a parking permit and you will be clamped. It seems to be more about revenue for the management company than anything else.

The management company relies on all fees being paid so that basic services such as insurance, common area lighting, fire alarms, gardening, maintenance, refuse (in some developments) etc are carried out. The management company does an annual budget and fees are calculated as a percentage of this as per lease agreements. Management companies do not make a profit. If clamping is being brought in as a way to encourage people to pay their fees it's clearly because not enough fees are being paid to keep the company going.

hamhead wrote: »

The management company is made up has some of the residents sitting on its board as far as I'm aware I'm not really sure about this situation

The management company is the legal entity comprised of all owners in the development. Directors of the MC are elected at AGMs and every member is entitled to be a director (provided their fees are paid). If the directors proposed to the AGM that clamping was introduced and the AGM agreed to that, then they are entitled to bring in a clamping company and permit system. The MC owns all common areas including the car park and are entitled to bring in rules governing access to such areas.

bath handle

athtrasna wrote: »

hamhead wrote: »

They say it will improve Parking in the estate but unless you have paid your fees you will not be entitled to a parking permit and you will be clamped. It seems to be more about revenue for the management company than anything else.

The management company relies on all fees being paid so that basic services such as insurance, common area lighting, fire alarms, gardening, maintenance, refuse (in some developments) etc are carried out. The management company does an annual budget and fees are calculated as a percentage of this as per lease agreements. Management companies do not make a profit. If clamping is being brought in as a way to encourage people to pay their fees it's clearly because not enough fees are being paid to keep the company going.

hamhead wrote: »

The management company is made up has some of the residents sitting on its board as far as I'm aware I'm not really sure about this situation

The management company is the legal entity comprised of all owners in the development. Directors of the MC are elected at AGMs and every member is entitled to be a director (provided their fees are paid). If the directors proposed to the AGM that clamping was introduced and the AGM agreed to that, then they are entitled to bring in a clamping company and permit system. The MC owns all common areas including the car park and are entitled to bring in rules governing access to such areas.

The MC can't alter the terms of the leases.

rusty_ie2004

what part of the country ya in?

WHIP IT!

rusty_ie2004 wrote: »

what part of the country ya in?

I'm going to hazard a guess the OP (and athtrasna) are in the same South Co Dublin village that was mentioned in a link posted earlier in this thread.

It appears more than a few liberties have been taken here. Would be interested to hear what cmes of it.

athtrasna

A quick check on my previous posts will reveal that I actually live in Dublin 15 fwiw.

I am a director of OUR management company and while we do have clamping it is not a permit system, our clampers are contracted to clamp vehicles parked in places other than marked spaces eg gable ends, in front of front doors, on paths etc. I also know that we cannot pay for the services required if people don't pay their fees. We are lucky in that we don't have to resort to desperate measures such as introducing a permit system to encourage people to pay the fees that they have committed to pay in legally binding contracts.

An AGM or EGM has the power to amend the lease agreements provided the majority of attendees support that and a quorum of all members is achieved.

WHIP IT!

athtrasna wrote: »

An AGM or EGM has the power to amend the lease agreements provided the majority of attendees support that and a quorum of all members is achieved.

Yes, that seems to be the crux of the matter here. Was this adhered to at the meeting where it was pushed through?

The rights/wrongs of keeping up to date with your fees is immaterial here... the question is - was it or is it legal for the MC to bring in clamping where there was none previously inb order to make up a shortfall of funds from elsewhere??

I'd be interested to know how new/old this estate is?

athtrasna

The OP said it was passed at the AGM 20-3 of the 23 present. In our development the quorum is just two people so I would think that 23 was more than enough to have a binding vote.

There is also generally a clause in the leases that says the directors can make changes to the lease where it is in the best interest of the development - and certainly encouraging all members to pay their contracted fees would be in the best interest of any development. Therefore it is to be commended that they actually brought the motion to an AGM whereupon it was passed.

blah

I'm amazed that the issue with management fees is so bad that the MC can't pay bills. I expect that in coming years you'll see so many cases of MCs having these money issues, no sinking fund etc that any buyers will include checking the financial state of the MC before they consider buying (as they should, buy more buyers will be aware of it)

If a building is going to need a new roof in 30/50 years how will it be paid for.What if 25 years from now someone wants to buy an apartment and then realises that they'll be asked to pay €20k for a new roof 5 years later?

I'd be more worried about that than parking permits.

Lantus

blah wrote: »

I'm amazed that the issue with management fees is so bad that the MC can't pay bills. I expect that in coming years you'll see so many cases of MCs having these money issues, no sinking fund etc that any buyers will include checking the financial state of the MC before they consider buying (as they should, buy more buyers will be aware of it)

If a building is going to need a new roof in 30/50 years how will it be paid for.What if 25 years from now someone wants to buy an apartment and then realises that they'll be asked to pay €20k for a new roof 5 years later?

I'd be more worried about that than parking permits.

You've hit the nail right on the head.

The problem is that in most estates made up of housing and apartments there doesn't appear to be any legal requirement for soliciters to check there is a managment company. We know this because lots of people have sold there houses and left without paying any fees (4+years worth) and the then managment gane thas tried to pass on that cost to the new owners who didn't even realise there was a managment company in the estate they were moving into!

How can an MC attempt to even recover costs from people who have high tailed it and whats to stop everyone doing it unless the legal system makes it mandatory to check. Another loop hole that no one thought about.

The issue of roofs is very pertanant. As no one actually owns the roof on an apartment it's a ticking time bomb. Apartments are rife (ours are anyway) for non payment as currently they know they can get away with it. I'm sure they will be the first to knock down your door when a problem needs sorting out though.

The real problem though it that no one has the money to pay these fee's. After mortgaes, bills, food and other essentials the MC fee is often a luxury extra that can be put off for many.

Kosseegan

Lantus wrote: »

You've hit the nail right on the head.

The problem is that in most estates made up of housing and apartments there doesn't appear to be any legal requirement for soliciters to check there is a managment company. We know this because lots of people have sold there houses and left without paying any fees (4+years worth) and the then managment gane thas tried to pass on that cost to the new owners who didn't even realise there was a managment company in the estate they were moving into!

How can an MC attempt to even recover costs from people who have high tailed it and whats to stop everyone doing it unless the legal system makes it mandatory to check. Another loop hole that no one thought about.


.
The issue of roofs is very pertanant. As no one actually owns the roof on an apartment it's a ticking time bomb. Apartments are rife (ours are anyway) for non payment as currently they know they can get away with it. I'm sure they will be the first to knock down your door when a problem needs sorting out though.

The real problem though it that no one has the money to pay these fee's. After mortgaes, bills, food and other essentials the MC fee is often a luxury extra that can be put off for many.

It is negligent of a solicitor to conclude a sale without checking management fees are paid up to date. The new owner can be sued and can in turn sue ghis solicitor.

athtrasna

blah wrote: »

I'm amazed that the issue with management fees is so bad that the MC can't pay bills. I expect that in coming years you'll see so many cases of MCs having these money issues, no sinking fund etc that any buyers will include checking the financial state of the MC before they consider buying (as they should, buy more buyers will be aware of it)

If a building is going to need a new roof in 30/50 years how will it be paid for.What if 25 years from now someone wants to buy an apartment and then realises that they'll be asked to pay €20k for a new roof 5 years later?

I'd be more worried about that than parking permits.

I know of management companies with five figure debts! Unfortunately I know that because I have friends living in them...friends who will never be able to sell their properties and are paying mortgages more than three times the current property values. It is scary.

We were lucky, our developer left our MC with money in the bank and since the owners took over as directors a number of years ago, we have been building up that money and still managing to reduce fees. That sinking fund has now come into play as we've got a very significant expense this year to carry out repairs in the car park...and we will also have to repaint the exteriors of the buildings within the next 18 months.

I think very few people who bought in managed developments, particularly those with apartments, had a full understanding of what the implications of that are. We were lucky, our solicitor was excellent and explained most of it. The rest I learned pretty fast! I have been a director from the first AGM after the developers stood down as directors as I believe it's the best way to protect my investment. I strongly urge others to do likewise.