Why are motor tax rates not linear?

CiniO

F.e emission rates.

If your engine emits less than 120 g/km you pay only €104
If your engine emits more than 225 g/km you pay as much as €2100

Seems mad.
A journey in car with emission at f.e. 230 g/km will produce the same amount of CO2 as the same journey in two cars with emission of 115 g/km.


But revenue for mentioned 2 cars takes only €208 while for single high emission car 10 times more which is €2100.

Shouldn't it be linear?
Like twice bigger emissions, twice bigger price.

pajo1981

It's progressive taxation - it targets the better off.

alias no.9

pajo1981 wrote: »

It's progressive taxation - it targets the better off.

The better off eh? The ones who can afford new Band A & B executive saloons?

Anan1

CiniO wrote: »

F.e emission rates.

If your engine emits less than 120 g/km you pay only €104
If your engine emits more than 225 g/km you pay as much as €2100

Seems mad.
A journey in car with emission at f.e. 230 g/km will produce the same amount of CO2 as the same journey in two cars with emission of 115 g/km.


But revenue for mentioned 2 cars takes only €208 while for single high emission car 10 times more which is €2100.

Shouldn't it be linear?
Like twice bigger emissions, twice bigger price.

The idea isn't simply to charge per gram of CO2 produced, it's to discourage the purchase and ownership of cars with high emmissions.

ShadowHearth

Anan1 wrote: »

The idea isn't simply to charge per gram of CO2 produced, it's to discourage the purchase and ownership of cars with high emmissions.

Rape him too.

GSBellew

pajo1981 wrote: »

It's progressive taxation - it targets the better off.

Not really, the change to CO2 / emissions based taxation actually rewarded the better off whilst those who can not afford to buy newer cars still struggle on with old CC based rates.

si_guru

GSBellew wrote: »

Not really, the change to CO2 / emissions based taxation actually rewarded the better off whilst those who can not afford to buy newer cars still struggle on with old CC based rates.

Really.. what about the €8K+ VAT and VRT on this new car?

Anan1

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Rape him too.

What?

GSBellew wrote: »

Not really, the change to CO2 / emissions based taxation actually rewarded the better off whilst those who can not afford to buy newer cars still struggle on with old CC based rates.

I bought a new car in the last days of the old system, it's saving me €1100+ pa to tax.

mawk

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Rape him too.

Uuuh?

CiniO

Anan1 wrote: »

What?
I bought a new car in the last days of the old system, it's saving me €1100+ pa to tax.

But probably there's just a few cases like that in whole country

Anan1

CiniO wrote: »

But probably there's just a few cases like that in whole country

I'd say there are more than you'd think. A lot of people forget how much lower CO2 emissions are in newer cars, and wrongly assume that their own older car would be in the same tax band as its brand new equivalent. Remember also that buying a post-2008 car isn't something that only the wealthy do - an 08 supermini can often be a more affordable proposition than an older, larger car.

Atomic Pineapple

It's all academic anyway because the amount of emissions a car produces is proportional to the distance it is driven in its lifetime.

I drive my ST which is in the second highest band only at weekends so I actually generate much less emissions over a week than someone who has a band A car but covers high mileage in that car during a week compared to my low mileage.

Yet the person who actually pollutes less, pays more, mental.

*I'm on the CC based tax but just used it as an example if I was on emissions based tax

_Kaiser_

draffodx wrote: »

Yet the person who actually pollutes less, pays more, mental.

See I just fundamentally disagree with that argument - mostly because this whole thing (that change to emissions-based taxation) was driven by MONEY, and nothing at all to do with "saving the planet" :rolleyes:

Besides, with emerging/growing economies in China and Asia, our CO2 emissions nationally will be only a fraction of what they're putting out - hell, with the amount of cows in this country I wouldn't be surprised if THEY put out more emissions than the average motorist

Let's take myself as a not atypical example. I used to work 30 mins drive/40km from my job, but it required me to travel all over the county in question (IT support), often bringing equipment - PCs/servers and so on - with me.

As a result, I bought a 2006 2L TDI DSG Passat (which being on the old system, costs me over €600 a year to tax) - no company car for me!
Now, a full tank on this car (70L) lasts about 1100km and while I did get some allowance for this (albeit 25c - later 19c per km), it barely covered the diesel costs.. never mind the extra wear and tear and thus consumables/additional servicing required. But it was a requirement of the job and so I had to pay the costs.

Unfortunately I was made redundant and when I did finally get a job it was back in Dublin. So now I have a 200km daily commute and pay (roughly) €500 a month in diesel and tolls alone.
Because it pays a lot less and my costs have increased significantly, and because it's a temporary contract role with no certainty I can't just up and move closer (as is often the "default" response on these Boards in such a case) and because I'm living outside (any) of the city/cities, public transport is completely unsuitable - if it exists at all in many cases!

But on the basis of the argument above, as I have to travel more to get to work (as opposed to sat on my ass claiming the dole) I should "pay more".

No thanks - I think I pay enough as it is!

Joe 90

The reality is that the amount of emissions you produce is proportional to the amount of fuel that you use. The higher tax on bigger cars comes from another sort of green-ness , envy.

corktina

draffodx wrote: »

It's all academic anyway because the amount of emissions a car produces is proportional to the distance it is driven in its lifetime.

I drive my ST which is in the second highest band only at weekends so I actually generate much less emissions over a week than someone who has a band A car but covers high mileage in that car during a week compared to my low mileage.

Yet the person who actually pollutes less, pays more, mental.

*I'm on the CC based tax but just used it as an example if I was on emissions based tax

Personally I think all ST owners should pay double....until such a time as I can afford one...

bgo1

The new CO2 tax is environmental in that if we didnt introduce it we would pay throught the nose in fines from Europe over the next few years, im not sure if the gov is bringing in more or less money from it than the old system but would be interesting to know...

Cows would be CO2 taxed based on what they emit if scientists could figure out how to lower their emissions..they havent done that yet! so we stick with what we can do. Its relatively fair although putting the tax onto petrol purchase has very good reasoning in it too and ST driver is correct in what he says regarding his emissions over the course of a year.

Henry Ford III

Tax isn't always fair. That is all.

Tigger

my car is 176 and i pay nearly 900 so hows that fair?

PrettyBoy

This is Ireland. Tax rates don't have to be fair or makes sense here.

savagecabbages

CiniO wrote: »

F.e emission rates.

If your engine emits less than 120 g/km you pay only €104
If your engine emits more than 225 g/km you pay as much as €2100

Seems mad.
A journey in car with emission at f.e. 230 g/km will produce the same amount of CO2 as the same journey in two cars with emission of 115 g/km.


But revenue for mentioned 2 cars takes only €208 while for single high emission car 10 times more which is €2100.

Shouldn't it be linear?
Like twice bigger emissions, twice bigger price.

Would you prefer half the bigger emissions, half the bigger price?
i.e. half €2100
Silly logic IMO

* not saying I agree with the exoensive taxation system, but as a nation our cars are polluting less under the new system than if we continued using the older one...


A fuel based motor tax system would be ideal (and greener in theory), anyone here financially minded be able to tell me how much the govt make off motor tax in a year, and how much they would have to add to pump fuel to make up the shortfall?

Xpro

Our motor tax system is the worst system on the entire planet, simple as that. Revenue its at loss with this new co2 tax thing and still nothing is changed.

challengemaster

The reason is...

MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY

I'm sure that was the thought that someone had when they were deciding on it

CiniO

bgo1 wrote: »

The new CO2 tax is environmental in that if we didnt introduce it we would pay throught the nose in fines from Europe over the next few years,

So what about all the countries in EU where motor tax is not dependent of CO2 or there is no motor tax at all.

Generally in most EU countries, environmentally friendly cars are not really encouraged in any way.
I don't believe all that countries pay fines.

Voodoomelon

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Tax isn't always fair. That is all.

About sums it up. I just wind myself up about motor tax, not to mention self-employed people not getting any dole if business goes south.

Completely illogical and unfair.

bandit14

Voodoomelon wrote: »

About sums it up. I just wind myself up about motor tax, not to mention self-employed people not getting any dole if business goes south.

Completely illogical and unfair.

+ 1

board.eddy

car tax should be on petrol imo so that everyone pays per mileage, its the only fair way

-Corkie-

Voodoomelon wrote: »

not to mention self-employed people not getting any dole if business goes south.

Completely illogical and unfair.

Totally O/T but thats not the case.

Cookie_Monster

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Tax isn't always fair. That is all.

Tax is never fair.

Living in a country now where every second car is 3.5l + really makes you see how regressive the Irish tax system is and the kind of cars it rules out as obscenely expensive to own. The tax here is in the fuel and it's still about the equiv of €1.35 a litre. (it's only 91 oct though)

bgo1

CiniO wrote: »

So what about all the countries in EU where motor tax is not dependent of CO2 or there is no motor tax at all.

Generally in most EU countries, environmentally friendly cars are not really encouraged in any way.
I don't believe all that countries pay fines.

The fines are not for car emissions per say, its only one way of reducing the overall CO2 to hit EU targets, use of nuclear power is a massive bonus to this e.g france is littered with them (although we use the UK's nuclear energy already) and we have coal power stations, yet id be very suprised if EU countries dont have some road tax or road tax under a different guise..

the gov will soon put up the price for even lower emission class cars so the countries who dont use the system will find they are missing a trick as at least they can say its for the 'green' cause (not getting into if man-made CC is true or not haha!)

Or maybe those canny eastern europeans have found a way of trapping the infamous cow emissions

unkel

The people who thought up the CO2 based rates should be hung up for high treason

A large big engined saloon used to bring in €1293 in motor tax based on the cc system. Now some of them only bring in €156 in motor tax. I.e. the BMW 530d

This means that people who buy (nearly) new cars and can afford big motor tax rates and used to pay for it no problem, now only have tiny motor tax bills to pay...

And people who used to struggle with motor tax bills now stopped paying it altogether. Some people (like me) just stopped using their car. Other people just stopped paying but still use their car

LOOSE, LOOSE, LOOSE situation here

Motor tax intake is only a fraction of what it was a few years ago. Motor tax should be paid by the people who use motors the most. People who do a lot of miles / people who use cars with big polluting engines. Motor tax should be on fuel. Not on a fixed yearly basis, regardless of doing 2,000 miles or 50,000 miles.

rebel.ranter

I remember back in 1988 there was a yellow Rolls Royce that used to park in Cork city, in a church car park just off North Main St. I remember the tax on that car going down when everyone else's went up. I think that was when they put the ceiling on over 3L as being the same, to suit the wealthy.
So a linear system was removed years ago, why should it be any different now?