Emigration

harrythehat

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this but I guess it links directly with politics and economics.

I have been living abroad for three years now since I graduated college. Originally it was just supposed to be one,but with a next-to-useless Arts degree I have ended up staying out here because I'm on pretty decent money.

I would like to come home after this year though, either for further study or manybe to do an internship, but feel like I can't. Family and friends are advising me not to, and when I get home myself I manage to disabuse myself of the notion.

I feel let down by the government and authorities because there is so little support for expats coming home - in fact having been ordinarily resident elsewhere for the last three years I have lost my rights to social welfare and education grants.

Is there any point in coming home? And is there anything the political establishment are willing to do to help me and thousands like me?

JustinDee

harrythehat wrote: »

I feel let down by the government and authorities because there is so little support for expats coming home

Sorry but what "help" are you expecting?

Keep earning and saving then give a return a go if you really want to. Or else, try somewhere new. If you're three years out of uni, you'll be around only around 24-25 yrs old, yes? Still plenty to see and do.

I left Ireland in 1989 and didn't return til 2005. Lived in quite a few countries, enjoying where I was, picking up fluency in three languages and gained loads of work experience in the meantime.
Worked in my area of qualification for around half of those years and now am in an entirely different field altogether and loving my current job.
Didn't fall in my lap however. Some seriously hard yakka and patience was required.

My advice? Try another place first.
Things aren't going to improve overnight here and as you probably know, the entire continent is on shaky ground regarding its economies, not just Ireland.

harrythehat

JustinDee wrote: »

Sorry but what "help" are you expecting?

Specifically, I'd like the rules around ordinary residence changed so that emigrants returning home can do so with the safety nets all other Irish citizens enjoy. I see no reason why emigrants who have been forced to stay away due to the economic situation would not be entitled to education grants.

Good for you as regards how staying away went for you, but I don't want to stay away for 15 years and I don't see why I should have to. To that end, the other "help" I want is meaningful job creation.

JustinDee

harrythehat wrote: »

Specifically, I'd like the rules around ordinary residence changed so that emigrants returning home can do so with the safety nets all other Irish citizens enjoy. I see no reason why emigrants who have been forced to stay away due to the economic situation would not be entitled to education grants

Everything is based on contributions. If you're not in-country, you're not contributing surely? (I'm assuming you're not a property owner or such like).
What education grants are you thinking of? I know of one particular scheme that helps unemployed people to change skillsets. Obviously you can't just walk into it though.

Nobody forced anyone to emigrate either.
You chose to do what Irish students and graduates have been doing since the beginning of thearly twentieth century. Nothing unique in that.
If you think Ireland is bad now, you should have been around for the 80s, a decade which futher pales in comparison, by all accounts, to the 30s, 40s and 50s.

harrythehat wrote: »

Good for you as regards how staying away went for you, but I don't want to stay away for 15 years and I don't see why I should have to. To that end, the other "help" I want is meaningful job creation.

If my father can lose his job aged 62 and get another similar job aged 63, anyone can.
"Meaningful job creation" will have to wait a while. There is never going to be a turnaround in the space of a year. Economies run cyclical turns. You can't just flick a switch and all of a sudden, there is a bouyant economy with jobs a-plenty.

Dannyboy83

Is there any point in coming home?
That depends on what skills you have to offer.

Most of the recent college graduates I know are emigrating tho. They simply can't find work.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

Everything is based on contributions. If you're not in-country, you're not contributing surely? (I'm assuming you're not a property owner or such like).
What education grants are you thinking of? I know of one particular scheme that helps unemployed people to change skillsets. Obviously you can't just walk into it though.

Nobody forced anyone to emigrate either.
You chose to do what Irish students and graduates have been doing since the beginning of thearly twentieth century. Nothing unique in that.
If you think Ireland is bad now, you should have been around for the 80s, a decade which futher pales in comparison, by all accounts, to the 30s, 40s and 50s.


If my father can lose his job aged 62 and get another similar job aged 63, anyone can.
"Meaningful job creation" will have to wait a while. There is never going to be a turnaround in the space of a year. Economies run cyclical turns. You can't just flick a switch and all of a sudden, there is a bouyant economy with jobs a-plenty.

Nobody was forced, but myself like many others felt that they had no other choice. I was literally told to go on the dole or go to work in London. That effectively feels like being forced.

Your comment regarding your father shows a remarkable failure of logic.

@ the original posted: Why on earth do you want to return to Ireland, stay where you are. You will get a much better deal.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

Nobody was forced, but myself like many others felt that they had no other choice. I was literally told to go on the dole or go to work in London. That effectively feels like being forced

Job searching usually requires going on the dole, joining a scheme (part-pay, part-welfare) or taking up an interim job in the meantime. Even in this day and age, there are possibilities in the latter two.
Graduation with a degree doesn't guarantee a job. Never did. In affluent times, there was greater competition. In not-so-affluent, there is competition.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Your comment regarding your father shows a remarkable failure of logic

Not really. A man in his early sixties didn't p*ss and moan or play the victim. Wasn't too proud. Just got on with it, with no contacts and no leads. Applied and got the job in a retail outlet.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

Graduation with a degree doesn't guarantee a job. Never did. In affluent times, there was greater competition. In not-so-affluent, there is competition.


Not really. A man in his early sixties didn't p*ss and moan or play the victim. Wasn't too proud. Just got on with it, with no contacts and no leads. Applied and got the job in a retail outlet.

Who said anything about education? I didnt.

Its a complete failure of logic, "my father got a job therefore you must be able to get a job". It would be funny if it wasn't such a tragic misunderstanding of people's situation.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

Who said anything about education? I didnt.

Its a complete failure of logic, "my father got a job therefore you must be able to get a job". It would be funny if it wasn't such a tragic misunderstanding of people's situation.

How do you know what his situation was? Was it any less "tragic" than others?
Sorry for spreading a bit of positive news. Carry on with the line about being forced or ejected from Ireland.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

How do you know what his situation was? Was it any less "tragic" than others?
Sorry for spreading a bit of positive news. Carry on with the line about being forced or ejected from Ireland.

I dont need to know what your father's situation was, its irrelevant. All I'm demonstrating is that there is a fundamental break down of logic between essentially saying "He could do it, therefore you can". Its an appalling simplification of a very complex issue.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

I dont need to know what your father's situation was, its irrelevant. All I'm demonstrating is that there is a fundamental break down of logic between essentially saying "He could do it, therefore you can". Its an appalling simplification of a very complex issue.

And again with the melodramatic superlatives. "Appalling"?
Woe-betide-us for we are truly f***ed.
Any better?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

And again with the melodramatic superlatives. "Appalling"?
Woe-betide-us for we are truly f***ed.
Any better?

Consider it melodramatic if you wish, that's your right. There is a huge cross section of Irish society that are truly ****ed. The set backs many young people are experiencing now will follow them for their lives.

This is the reason that anyone with the resources to leave are getting out as fast as they can.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

Consider it melodramatic if you wish, that's your right. There is a huge cross section of Irish society that are truly ****ed. The set backs many young people are experiencing now will follow them for their lives.

This is the reason that anyone with the resources to leave are getting out as fast as they can.

Oh peace!
Believe it or not, this isn't a unique situation. The country (and its young people) has been absolutely stuffed before. Even more so in fact.
How old were you during the 80s? Do you not remember what it was like?

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

Oh peace!
Believe it or not, this isn't a unique situation. The country (and its young people) has been absolutely stuffed before. Even more so in fact.
How old were you during the 80s? Do you not remember what it was like?

I remember what the 80's were like, this is eventually going to be worse.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

I remember what the 80's were like, this is eventually going to be worse.

So is this pre-emptive moaning then?

ChRoMe

ChRoMe wrote: »

I remember what the 80's were like, this is eventually going to be worse.

I'm not moaning, on the contrary both my wife and I were fortunate to leave Ireland in 2008, debt free with a household income comfortably in six figures.

I do however feel a profound disappointment that our kids wont grow up in Ireland and will be away from their extended families. I'm also devastated for the young couples that we know that are now locked into negative equity with essentially no way out.

you appear to be quite flippant regarding the hardships others are experiencing, others who display empathy are not "moaning"

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

I'm not moaning, on the contrary both my wife and I were fortunate to leave Ireland in 2008, debt free with a household income comfortably in six figures
I do however feel a profound disappointment that our kids wont grow up in Ireland and will be away from their extended families. I'm also devastated for the young couples that we know that are now locked into negative equity with essentially no way out.

So its okay to give examples of people at the tough end of things yet "irrelevant" giving examples of people who can soldier on?
Guess what. You are no less subjective than I.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

you appear to be quite flippant regarding the hardships others are experiencing, others who display empathy are not "moaning"

Not at all.
Its just not in my nature to take the melodramatic route having been through the same myself and having family who have been through far worse.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

So its okay to give examples of people at the tough end of things yet "irrelevant" giving examples of people who can soldier on?

When the examples are attempting to construct a logical link between the originators situation and someone elses, yes, that does make it irrelevant.

You, me or anyone else has not been through this before. Yes Ireland has been through a recession before however the global context that this one is occurring in has not been felt before. The traditional safe havens of getting the boat no longer apply to a large amount as a they did in the past.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

You, me or anyone else has not been through this before. Yes Ireland has been through a recession before however the global context that this one is occurring in has not been felt before. The traditional safe havens of getting the boat no longer apply to a large amount as a they did in the past.

Speak for yourself.
The "traditional safe havens" are exactly where emigrants have headed, yourself included. It is exactly the same. There were plenty of dystopian doomsayers about before. They just had no internet to surf the wave of calamity upon.

My mother's family have been through far worse. They've never moaned a sook about what happened to whats left of them though.

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
The "traditional safe havens" are exactly where emigrants have headed, yourself included. It is exactly the same. There were plenty of dystopian doomsayers about before. They just had no internet to surf the wave of calamity upon.

My mother's family have been through far worse. They've never moaned a sook about what happened to whats left of them though.

Its quite different on a number of levels. Traditionally with Irish emigrants entering the UK were unskilled and generally worked in the construction sector (male) or the service industry (female). There was a surplus of work that this imported unskilled Irish labor satisfied, that is certainly not the case today. Unfortunately, even now the skilled but inexperienced wave of modern Irish emigrants are entering a British economy are having difficulty securing stable employment.

The world economy itself has also changed, the massive increase in globalization over the past twenty years has caused any comparisons with the 80s or earlier to be completely redundant.

Regarding myself, I'm fortunate enough to have a skill set in very niche part of the technology sector that thankfully, so far, has not been affected.

So the "too long didnt read" version can be summarized to this, the world is a very different place to when your mammy went through a recession.

Edited to add: In addition, America one of the traditional destinations for Irish emigrants is suffering a devastating drop in economic activity, that combined with a massive increase in obstacles to enter the country (legally or illegally) thanks to being post 9/11 has removed one of the default options for Irish emigrants.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its quite different on a number of levels. Traditionally with Irish emigrants entering the UK were unskilled and generally worked in the construction sector (male) or the service industry (female). There was a surplus of work that this imported unskilled Irish labor satisfied, that is certainly not the case today. Unfortunately, even now the skilled but inexperienced wave of modern Irish emigrants are entering a British economy are having difficulty securing stable employment

This is generalisation. Migration also involves the skilled labour force qualified in practice and qualifications. Not just the brickies people see in a Charlie Bird TV piece.

ChRoMe wrote: »

The world economy itself has also changed, the massive increase in globalization over the past twenty years has caused any comparisons with the 80s or earlier to be completely redundant

There have always been trade blocs. No different and certainly not "completely redundant" a point. I would say the state of the world economy-wise and in almost every other facet, was in a more calamitous situation in the 40s and 50s. The global economy in the early 70s underwent a massive depression. The 1980s were largely a result of that as well as other political changes.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Regarding myself, I'm fortunate enough to have a skill set in very niche part of the technology sector that thankfully, so far, has not been affected.

So the "too long didnt read" version can be summarized to this, the world is a very different place to when your mammy went through a recession

Easy on the condescension. "My mammy" and her family went through a lot more than a recession.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Edited to add: In addition, America one of the traditional destinations for Irish emigrants is suffering a devastating drop in economic activity, that combined with a massive increase in obstacles to enter the country (legally or illegally) thanks to being post 9/11 has removed one of the default options for Irish emigrants.

Guesswork and more generalisation unless . . . you've a further subjective example?

ChRoMe

JustinDee wrote: »

This is generalisation. Migration also involves the skilled labour force qualified in practice and qualifications. Not just the brickies people see in a Charlie Bird TV piece.


There have always been trade blocs. No different and certainly not "completely redundant" a point. I would say the state of the world economy-wise and in almost every other facet, was in a more calamitous situation in the 40s and 50s. The global economy in the early 70s underwent a massive depression. The 1980s were largely a result of that as well as other political changes.


Easy on the condescension. "My mammy" and her family went through a lot more than a recession.


Guesswork and more generalisation unless . . . you've a further subjective example?

Yes there are skilled emigrants, however this time around it appears that those with experience are unable to leave Ireland due to financial commitments taken during the boom times. The factors holding people at home at least appear to be stronger than they were before. The free movement of labour in the EU also increases the competition between emigrants.

Yes there have always been trade blocks, they just haven't ever been so efficiently connected, which while it can bring advantages also allows problems to spread faster, as we are seeing.

Apologies I didn't mean to be condescending, the mammy comment was in response to you referring to your mother and the too long didnt read is a reference to a shorthand I see on other forums.

The America comment is not speculation, I have a dear friend back in Ireland married to a American woman and is the father to an American citizen. He is having difficulties obtaining the right to work there. I've heard similar stories from others.

FTA69

I always find it hilarious when people in London start banging on about "hard times", if they want to see hard times they should take a spin over to Ireland with hundreds of people competing for any McJob that pops its head up. Since emigrating to London last month I've secured two jobs and have never been so busy, at one stage I actually had to turn down a painting contract because I couldn't get anyone to help me do it, why? Because all my friends in that trade are up the walls.

London, unlike Ireland, is a place where anyone can soldier on provided they have a brain in their heads and a willingness to work.

JustinDee

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes there are skilled emigrants, however this time around it appears that those with experience are unable to leave Ireland due to financial commitments taken during the boom times. The factors holding people at home at least appear to be stronger than they were before. The free movement of labour in the EU also increases the competition between emigrants

Again, this is generalisation.
Free movement of labour in the EU was around in the days of the EEC also. There have always been visa agreements between Ireland and the New World countries and now even more with the Middle East and SE Asia.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes there have always been trade blocks, they just haven't ever been so efficiently connected, which while it can bring advantages also allows problems to spread faster, as we are seeing

No, it doesn't. There are still numerous trade blocs. There always have been. Treaties and agreements change and adapt with each change in the economic climate.

ChRoMe wrote: »

The America comment is not speculation, I have a dear friend back in Ireland married to a American woman and is the father to an American citizen. He is having difficulties obtaining the right to work there. I've heard similar stories from others.

So yes then. More subjective examples and "others"

spider guardian

harrythehat wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this but I guess it links directly with politics and economics.

I have been living abroad for three years now since I graduated college. Originally it was just supposed to be one,but with a next-to-useless Arts degree I have ended up staying out here because I'm on pretty decent money.

I would like to come home after this year though, either for further study or manybe to do an internship, but feel like I can't. Family and friends are advising me not to, and when I get home myself I manage to disabuse myself of the notion.

I feel let down by the government and authorities because there is so little support for expats coming home - in fact having been ordinarily resident elsewhere for the last three years I have lost my rights to social welfare and education grants.

Is there any point in coming home? And is there anything the political establishment are willing to do to help me and thousands like me?

Why do you want to come home? If you are earning good money where you are and have a decent lifestyle then what is the problem? Homesickness?

Ireland doesn't owe you a living, you need to see the labour market in terms of it being global, or at the very least it being continental. While your skills mightn't be in demand in Ireland they may very well be in Europe somewhere. This isn't easy for someone raising a family but if you're young and carefree why not continue to grasp the opportunity to gain good experience. When the market rebounds here you will have the skills and experience to get a decent job.

You are better off abroad and working than in Ireland doing a training course which may or may not be of benefit to you down the line.