Going into to Dairying

KCTK

I took over the family farm a year ago and it currently has dry cattle. Return not much on these when purchase of bullock, feed, dosing etc taken into account. I am now considering a total change of enterprise to go into dairying. Home farm has c.30ha of very good land and outside farm has 20ha or relatively good land (could use this for silage, heifers etc).
What roughly would I be look at for set up costs for parlour (nothing fancy, maybe secondhand) etc to milk maybe 90 cows on home farm. Paddocks, roadways, water etc all in place. May need conversion of some buildings as current just slatted tanks for bullocks but large house with c.80 cubicles in outside farm which used be used for sucklers in past.
Any ideas or replys much appreciated :rolleyes:

charityboy

i see you left out one small piece of the jigsaw ( quota ) can you get your hands on enough quota for 90 cows (roughly 120,000 gallons

funny man

KCTK wrote: »

I took over the family farm a year ago and it currently has dry cattle. Return not much on these when purchase of bullock, feed, dosing etc taken into account. I am now considering a total change of enterprise to go into dairying. Home farm has c.30ha of very good land and outside farm has 20ha or relatively good land (could use this for silage, heifers etc).
What roughly would I be look at for set up costs for parlour (nothing fancy, maybe secondhand) etc to milk maybe 90 cows on home farm. Paddocks, roadways, water etc all in place. May need conversion of some buildings as current just slatted tanks for bullocks but large house with c.80 cubicles in outside farm which used be used for sucklers in past.
Any ideas or replys much appreciated :rolleyes:

70k parlour if new build
12k milk tank
paddocks 1.10/1.50 per meter
4k just for pipe and drinkers

KCTK

I will be a new entrant and under 35 so hoping to start by applying for the 200,000 ltrs that are available to new entrants that meet certain criteria. After that I will have to source by other means...

whelan1

there are some other threads here like yours , have a look through, some good info

KCTK

whelan1 wrote: »

there are some other threads here like yours , have a look through, some good info

Thanks, have read a few, so much info its mind boggling to a fellow coming from dry cattle (uy them, feed them, kill them!!!)

I suppose my main question would be do people on here think there is a chance of making a decent living from c. 90 milking cows with no rented land especially with abolition of quotas just around the corner and what that will being in price etc?

Cheers

bbam

KCTK wrote: »

.with abolition of quotas just around the corner and what that will being in price

You see that's the crux of the problem right there...
If you can get into dairy without borrowing much money then I'd say you have a chance of making a living off 90 cows..
The problem is that there are numbers borrowing huge sums and getting in presuming that milk prices will hold strong as will the sale value of calves..
I know of some who are literally putting the deeds of everything against this gamble..

I've said it on other threads, do your sums.. Maybe others closer to dairying would have a better feeling but I would think your plan would want to include milk prices 20-30% lower than current, where costs of meal/fert/diesel will probably increase 5% year on year... Economies of scale will be key, I'd imagine 90 cows will be a starting point..

Have you worked at dairying before ??

5live

KCTK wrote: »

Thanks, have read a few, so much info its mind boggling to a fellow coming from dry cattle (uy them, feed them, kill them!!!)

I suppose my main question would be do people on here think there is a chance of making a decent living from c. 90 milking cows with no rented land especially with abolition of quotas just around the corner and what that will being in price etc?

Cheers

Hi KCTK. Your first job is to get quota. I assume you have an application in for new entrant quota in this years application, because it closed a week or so ago?

To answer your question, yes you can make a good living from 90 cows. Also from 60 cows and 120 cows. As bbam posted, the key is keeping costs down and borrowing as little as possible. You probably should budget on milk prices of 27/28c as there is going to be horrific fluctuations on price over the next years. An over supply of 1% can lead to a drop of 20% in price and vice versa so you should be looking at costs of under 20c max.

You are in a bit of a bind on parlours. You can get a very good parlour up for 35k but will you be able to handle increased numbers with it? There are plenty of good second hand plants out there at the minute and you can get very good value if you know what to look for.

From your OP you said the outfarm has the housing so will you have to build housing on the home farm to hold cows in spring/wet weather, if wintering cows on the out farm? Some of the diggings from that could be used to reduce the cost of roadways but as the cows are on this for hours each day you shouldnt skimp on the roads.

Let us know how you are getting on:)

KCTK

5live wrote: »

Hi KCTK.
To answer your question, yes you can make a good living from 90 cows. Also from 60 cows and 120 cows. As bbam posted, the key is keeping costs down and borrowing as little as possible. You probably should budget on milk prices of 27/28c as there is going to be horrific fluctuations on price over the next years. An over supply of 1% can lead to a drop of 20% in price and vice versa so you should be looking at costs of under 20c max.

You are in a bit of a bind on parlours. You can get a very good parlour up for 35k but will you be able to handle increased numbers with it? There are plenty of good second hand plants out there at the minute and you can get very good value if you know what to look for.

From your OP you said the outfarm has the housing so will you have to build housing on the home farm to hold cows in spring/wet weather, if wintering cows on the out farm? Some of the diggings from that could be used to reduce the cost of roadways but as the cows are on this for hours each day you shouldnt skimp on the roads.

Let us know how you are getting on:)

Yes the initial costs will be the making or breaking of this, Definately needed is the parlour, tank etc. Housing in home farm is the next thing, not sure of viability of housing over winter in outside farm. Buildings in home farm are slatted units but not much room for installing cubicles etc. Not sure if dismantling house in outside farm and moving it would be most cost effective/best option. Roads and paddocks not really a problem as all in place already and in v. good condition.

Would be budgeting for price as low as 25c so keeping cost to minimum is a must.

In answer to bbam I have not worked in dairy before (another problem!!)

whelan1

KCTK wrote: »

In answer to bbam I have not worked in dairy before (another problem!!)

would you not go and work with a local dairy farmer for a week and see what it involves... seems a bit silly to me to be going to all this bother if you haven't worked on a dairy farm before

JohnBoy

A cold week, and go on the beer a few nights too, then see how you feel

KCTK

whelan1 wrote: »

would you not go and work with a local dairy farmer for a week and see what it involves... seems a bit silly to me to be going to all this bother if you haven't worked on a dairy farm before

Just sussing out the numbers first, if there seems to be a hope of making a go of it then I'll be out to a neighbour for a few weeks of milking to see exactly what its like

5live

JohnBoy wrote: »

A cold week, and go on the beer a few nights too, then see how you feel

lol:D. It does tend to sort the men (and women(forgot whelan1 for a minute;)))from the boys and girls. But it has to happen in the middle of calvings. It might be worth talking to the local creamery manager to find someone that might let you shadow him for a few days especially around calvings. Invaluable experience imo.

There was a good article in the journal a while back on conversions of beef housing to dairy housing which might be worth a look at.

Tanks are fairly common around so you should pick one up handily enough, heard of a 1200gallon going for 5k a while back. The packos and meullers and the rest of the manufacturers will have a list of fellows looking to trade in before buying so it shouldnt be too dear

funny man

KCTK wrote: »

Yes the initial costs will be the making or breaking of this, Definately needed is the parlour, tank etc. Housing in home farm is the next thing, not sure of viability of housing over winter in outside farm. Buildings in home farm are slatted units but not much room for installing cubicles etc. Not sure if dismantling house in outside farm and moving it would be most cost effective/best option. Roads and paddocks not really a problem as all in place already and in v. good condition.

Would be budgeting for price as low as 25c so keeping cost to minimum is a must.

In answer to bbam I have not worked in dairy before (another problem!!)

If the yard on the out-farm is in good condition surely it will do for dry cows and replacements, just get a couple of different views on how best to get some cubicles on the home farm, try to spend your budget on where you will get most return cows, Parlour, reseeding, soil fertility and so on.

An over supply of 1% can lead to a drop of 20% in price and vice versa so you should be looking at costs of under 20c max.

so an over supply of 5% will lead to a 100% drop, if this is so we are all doomed!

5live

funny man wrote: »

so an over supply of 5% will lead to a 100% drop, if this is so we are all doomed!

No i think the figure shows that a small drop or increase in supply will lead to a huge increase or drop in prices because purchasers will see a lot of sellers with either big or small stocks and will act acordingly:(

KCTK

funny man wrote: »

If the yard on the out-farm is in good condition surely it will do for dry cows and replacements, just get a couple of different views on how best to get some cubicles on the home farm, try to spend your budget on where you will get most return cows, Parlour, !

Yes looking at the houses on the home farm the weekend and it probably would not take too much of a change around on the buildings to get get c.70 cubicles in, would need a scraper alright as passages would not be on the cubicles so extra spend on that (maybe second hand options in area) Most of the farm has been resseded in last 6/8 years so would not need to do a huge amount of this all at once and lime etc has been spread every few years also.

Have alot of experience of calving season alright, up to a few years ago we had 85 sucklers so that used be fun when a scour etc would hit a large amount of them all at once (didn't have the twice a day milking to go with it though...) But will definately be taking everyones advice of shaddowing a local dairy farmer come the spring, I shouldn't have too much problem i'd say getting one of them to accept some free labour at that stage for a week!!!

funny man

My only advice now is to consider the lifestyle change from suckling to dairy, it's more than just milking, you need a good system at calving time or you can become over stretched, you need to educate yourself on the technical stuff breeding and grass etc., if your not up to speed already. on picking a local farmer i'd choose someone on top of their game with a good attitude towards dairying and a willingness to show you everthing about their business, just be warned some dairy farmers have a problem with beef guys switching over to dairying, they might not admit it but they think you will pull down the price of their milk. be warned!

linebacker52

Join a good discussion group I would even start going to the meetings now.

KCTK

funny man wrote: »

you need to educate yourself on the technical stuff breeding and grass etc., !

That definately is one of my main concerns, if I am doing this I want to know exactly what I am doing and I must admit for a non dairy farmer the amount of technical stuff involved just looks unreal.

Good point linebacker52 also, one question I would have is are there any short courses (a week or so) run anyplace for a good grounding in all the technical stuff to supplement attending discussion groups?

funny man

KCTK wrote: »

That definately is one of my main concerns, if I am doing this I want to know exactly what I am doing and I must admit for a non dairy farmer the amount of technical stuff involved just looks unreal.

Good point linebacker52 also, one question I would have is are there any short courses (a week or so) run anyplace for a good grounding in all the technical stuff to supplement attending discussion groups?

I wouldn't be too concerned about the technical stuff if you have an interest to learn, you'll pick it up. known it is one thing putting it into practice is another.

Bactidiaryl

there may not be quotas post 2015 but there will be contracts and a probability that shares will be needed to be purchased if not already on hand.existing boards of co-ops are not going to let dairy conversion farmers access to their valuable processing capacity without them paying for their own requirements.and this is where contracts and stainless steel shares will come in.this cost may not be huge but i suspect somewhere in the region of €40-100/1000gls.good luck.

whelan1

funny man wrote: »

I wouldn't be too concerned about the technical stuff if you have an interest to learn, you'll pick it up. known it is one thing putting it into practice is another.

most of us learn the hard way and experience is the best way

KCTK

whelan1 wrote: »

most of us learn the hard way and experience is the best way

Totally agree, but any advice from ye guys who have learnt the hard way is much appreciated

Had Teagasc advisor with me today and it may not take much to convert exesting buildings to incorporate cubicles for cow numbers I'm planning. Also an old building which faces on to the road would do for a dairy so parlour would be my main spend. I have seen loads of advice on other threads on parlour builds, any very quick do's/don't from any of ye guys?

jeff greene

KCTK wrote: »

Totally agree, but any advice from ye guys who have learnt the hard way is much appreciated

Had Teagasc advisor with me today and it may not take much to convert exesting buildings to incorporate cubicles for cow numbers I'm planning. Also an old building which faces on to the road would do for a dairy so parlour would be my main spend. I have seen loads of advice on other threads on parlour builds, any very quick do's/don't from any of ye guys?

Keep it basic, room to expand, milk in other parlours first.

Don't underestimate the cost of adding cubicles, the cubicle itself, clamps, neck rail, brisket board, mat and base will be sizable, add scrappers then if needed.

KCTK

jeff greene wrote: »

Don't underestimate the cost of adding cubicles, the cubicle itself, clamps, neck rail, brisket board, mat and base will be sizable, add scrappers then if needed.

Scrapers, mats etc will definately come at later stage too, basic to start with. What are thoughts of automatic feeders though in parlour? Not realistic to assume that cows will spend 100% of milking time on grass in my part of country.

Tipp Man

KCTK wrote: »

Scrapers, mats etc will definately come at later stage too, basic to start with. What are thoughts of automatic feeders though in parlour? Not realistic to assume that cows will spend 100% of milking time on grass in my part of country.

wouldn't be too quick to rule out mats - I think you will find it very hard to get cows to lie on cubicles without them. And cows not lying on cubicles brings its own set of problems

KCTK

Tipp Man wrote: »

wouldn't be too quick to rule out mats - I think you will find it very hard to get cows to lie on cubicles without them. And cows not lying on cubicles brings its own set of problems

Hmm, any thoughs on any alternative to mats for a year or two, is lime any good as a substitute?

Tipp Man

KCTK wrote: »

Hmm, any thoughs on any alternative to mats for a year or two, is lime any good as a substitute?

You;ll be liming whether you have mats in or not I'd say - I would class lime as a necessity

whelan1

would the lime on concrete not be very severe on their bags?

Joe the Plumber

KCTK wrote: »

Hmm, any thoughs on any alternative to mats for a year or two, is lime any good as a substitute?

I've heard of farms on the continent using a bed of saw dust 4 or 5 inchs deep as the lying bay in cubicle houses, Is it possible or nonsense?

blue5000

KCTK wrote: »

Hmm, any thoughs on any alternative to mats for a year or two, is lime any good as a substitute?

Maybe use old belting off a coveyer belt, how much are cubicle mats these days? Wouldn't use sawdust, bacteria thrive in it=mastitis.

jeff greene

Without mats, straw would be the best if it would suit your slurry system. I'm using straw now as its cheaper than saw dust this year. With mats you'll still need some form of bedding, sawdust, straw but would need less of it. Lime or stuff like stalosan f is needed with all

KCTK

jeff greene wrote: »

Without mats, straw would be the best if it would suit your slurry system. I'm using straw now as its cheaper than saw dust this year. With mats you'll still need some form of bedding, sawdust, straw but would need less of it. Lime or stuff like stalosan f is needed with all

Thanks guys, god the poor ould suckler cow is really neglected compared to her cousin the dairy cow, no mats, no bedding, no nothing!!!
I wouldn't be able to use straw as cubicles will be on slats, have done a few searches on mats, not actually as expensive as I thought, if I can get conversion done at right price I may be able to stretch to them.

Next question I have here is for rough dimensions of a 14 unit parlour not including the dairy (another building which will be ajoining will do for dairy). Just looking for rough length/width.

Thanks

5live

KCTK wrote: »

Thanks guys, god the poor ould suckler cow is really neglected compared to her cousin the dairy cow, no mats, no bedding, no nothing!!!
I wouldn't be able to use straw as cubicles will be on slats, have done a few searches on mats, not actually as expensive as I thought, if I can get conversion done at right price I may be able to stretch to them.

Next question I have here is for rough dimensions of a 14 unit parlour not including the dairy (another building which will be ajoining will do for dairy). Just looking for rough length/width.

Thanks

I have cows on bare concrete still:o. About 2/3 of the cubicles have mats and i normally buy 10 or 15 when i have the cash. They are not essential but they do add greatly to comfort.

Re length of parlour, it all depends on your preference for distance between units ie 2'3", 2'6" or 3' are the standard distances so multiply by 14 and leave at least 10' in front for room to exit. The width will also depend on the distance between units as at 2'3" the cows will need a wider parlour than at 3' as the cows will be at right angles to the pit rather than at a 45 degree angle with 3'. If i remember the start of the thread correctly, you have enough room for any of the options so you will have to decide yourself which unit spaceing you prefer and work from that

whelan1

there are 40 second hand mats on done deal for €35 each

stanflt

whelan1 wrote: »

there are 40 second hand mats on done deal for €35 each

just bought 60 new ones from alfco for that and that included fitting-ouch

mattthetrasher

i have mats they cost 40 but a friend of mine has winter milkers on peat it stays on cubicle for about 4 days he reckons its easier and cleaner than mats and cheap too he collects it in a silage trailer and stores enough for winter

funny man

peat is definitely cleaner that mats on there own but if cubicle bed were put on a good slope with mats and a covering of cubicle lime or sawdust they will be just as clean, i wouldn't class peat as been cheap most guys that i know have quit using it in favour of mats. i wouldn't recommend putting in cubicles and not putting anything on top of the concrete.

KCTK

5live wrote: »

Re length of parlour, it all depends on your preference for distance between units ie 2'3", 2'6" or 3' are the standard distances so multiply by 14 and leave at least 10' in front for room to exit. The width will also depend on the distance between units as at 2'3" the cows will need a wider parlour than at 3' as the cows will be at right angles to the pit rather than at a 45 degree angle with 3'. If i remember the start of the thread correctly, you have enough room for any of the options so you will have to decide yourself which unit spaceing you prefer and work from that

Yes the parlour will be a new build so not restricted on size. I am wondering what would be recommended as best width option, I know that closer to right angle means putting on the clusters between the legs, what do people think of this?

keep going

KCTK wrote: »

Hmm, any thoughs on any alternative to mats for a year or two, is lime any good as a substitute?[/QUOTE bought old astroturf last year off donedeal and cows loved it.its filled with sand and weighs a ton so dosent move.works out around 6 e a cubicle.use plenty lime on it this year putting in scrapers so hoping they will stay cleaner but they didnt get that dirty anyway.what are yer thoughts on white rhino versus cubicle lime or other cubicle products

jeff greene

Keep Going wrote: »

bought old astroturf last year off donedeal and cows loved it.its filled with sand and weighs a ton so dosent move.works out around 6 e a cubicle.use plenty lime on it this year putting in scrapers so hoping they will stay cleaner but they didnt get that dirty anyway.what are yer thoughts on white rhino versus cubicle lime or other cubicle products

Can you post some pictures if you get a chance. Does the 'grass' hold dirt though? Interesting idea, I remember seeing astroturf on DD alright.

bbam

KCTK wrote: »

Yes the parlour will be a new build so not restricted on size. I am wondering what would be recommended as best width option, I know that closer to right angle means putting on the clusters between the legs, what do people think of this?

It seems to be a personal taste on this one... Best if you get some experience of both and see which you like yourself...

5live

KCTK wrote: »

Yes the parlour will be a new build so not restricted on size. I am wondering what would be recommended as best width option, I know that closer to right angle means putting on the clusters between the legs, what do people think of this?

I milked for a few months in a 3' parlour so we were putting on in front of the legs. Any time a cow got restless, the cluster came off as she would stand on the milk line. About 6 cows out of 12 had to be put on a second time each round but heifers were easy to milk as they were closer to the pit. Now closer to the pit is less dangerous as you dont have to go into the row of cows to put on the cluster when they try to move forward but they still stood on the milk line. That is why i went for 2'6" centres as it was the right compromise for me. Others may have a different opinion on that though

whelan1

always wondered how the jersey crosses get on in the parlour as they are quite small, do they push up? i assume most of the parlours they are in where made for bigger cows

5live

whelan1 wrote: »

always wondered how the jersey crosses get on in the parlour as they are quite small, do they push up? i assume most of the parlours they are in where made for bigger cows

Yeah the are a pain in the behind at times but i find them settling much earlier than friesian/holstein. I wouldnt like to have a 2'3" and be crawling in after the buggers though. And if cows are hungry and you have 2 jerseys coming in together then you often have 2 in one space when the bigger girls push in:eek:. But that is rare enough and can happen too with 2 friesian heifers but much less often