Does your club field more than one team in a league?

mrgaa1

Does your club have a second / third team that play within your countys league and championship(s)? If so what rules does your county enforce on your club?

I dont know

My Club don’t, we just have our Senior team & the Reserves, but there are two clubs in Tyrone that do – Errigal Ciaran who have a 3rds & 4ths (3rds Reserves) and Carrickmore who just have a thirds team.

Their 3rds teams can play in, and win the Division 3 league & Junior Championship.
I’m unsure if they are able to get promoted to Division 2. I have heard they can’t, and I have also heard they can so long as their first team isn’t in Division 2.
As far as I know, if they were to win the Junior Championship, they cant go forward to represent Tyrone in the Ulster Junior Club Championship

mrgaa1

I dont know wrote: »

My Club don’t, we just have our Senior team & the Reserves, but there are two clubs in Tyrone that do – Errigal Ciaran who have a 3rds & 4ths (3rds Reserves) and Carrickmore who just have a thirds team.

Their 3rds teams can play in, and win the Division 3 league & Junior Championship.
I’m unsure if they are able to get promoted to Division 2. I have heard they can’t, and I have also heard they can so long as their first team isn’t in Division 2.
As far as I know, if they were to win the Junior Championship, they cant go forward to represent Tyrone in the Ulster Junior Club Championship

so can players play for the 4th and 3rd teams in league games? Can players from the 1st team play for the 3rd team? How is that regulated?

bruschi

in wexford you have to put forward your list of first 15 players. none of those named can play for the second team. if there is a third team, then the next 15 players are named, and they cant play for the third team. but if you are not named, you can play for any team. its a bit open to abuse, but the fixtures committee can see any glaring ommissions or abuses by checking across the named championship teams from the previous year.

I dont know

Sorry, I should have been clearer there.
The firsts & Seconds play together as Seniors & Senior Reserves in Division 1 & Division 1 reserve – players can play on both of these teams – Although you have to name 12 players at the start of the year as Seniors who can’t play in the Reserve Championship, but afaik can play Reserve league games. Also, once you’ve played in the Senior championship, you cant play in the Reserve Championship, but it is possible to have played in the Reserve Championship first and then played in a later round of the Senior Championship – so you could pick up both medals

The thirds & fourths play together as Seniors & Senior Reserves in Division 3 & Division 3 reserve players can play on both of these teams – again you have to name 12 players at the start of the year as Seniors who can’t play in the Reserve Championship.


AFAIK, these are treated like two separate panels/clubs – so you declare for only one of them for a season. How this is regulated, I do not know, its not like you put in a transfer request from one panel in your club to another! It may be something like they do in wexford.

I do know that for the 12 players named who could only play first team football, alot of clubs put down names of members who no longer played football

For the example of Errigal, there have been a lot of questions asked. Their Senior Reserves would have been their 2nd best team, but this year they have entered a much stronger 3rds team as its seen as more competitive football, with their Senior Reserves made up of younger players with the potential of making it on to the Senior panel. The Question is, what about player performing well on the 3rds/4ths teams? Do they have to wait until the following season to make it up to the senior panel?

rpurfield

i know in meath you name 15 for your first team and they cant play b (reserve) league football,though ive often heard of lads retired/emigrated being named on that 15 to free someone up for the juniors!! i dont know is right about if a reserve team wins a junior/inter county champo they cant go forward to the provincal competition its normally the last team standing in that comp thats a first team.

Frank Spencer

A team that is not it's clubs first team cannot represent their county in their provincial championship. This scenario crops up almost every year in Dublin.

In Dublin the rule on panels is as below:

Where a club has teams competing in more than one division or has more than one team in the same division a panel of twenty players for each team except the lowest grade must be submitted to the CCC before the team plays their second game in the league. Where a team fails to submit a panel CCC shall consider the first twenty players to be used in a league to be that team’s panel.

Kerrydude1981

Same rule applies in Kerry,start of the year all teams have to name a first 15 and a second 15 if they have a c team,Dingle,Kilcummin and Laune Rangers b teams were in the Senior County League Division 5 this year.

mrgaa1

So in all cases so far clubs can abuse the rule by naming certain players not in the first 15 who could then subsequently play for both teams. It seems to be a common problem across Ireland then.

bruschi

mrgaa1 wrote: »

So in all cases so far clubs can abuse the rule by naming certain players not in the first 15 who could then subsequently play for both teams. It seems to be a common problem across Ireland then.

yup. I know for the hurling team, whilst I was a fringe player on the senior side and in and out of the starting side, for the league I generally played for both teams for a couple of years until named fully on the first 15.

it is always going to be like that though. because you go the other way, and just say a player is named on the first 15, and then is not deemed good enough, that player is caught because if he cant make the first team, then he isnt able to play for the second team and is left with no games.

Wexford make an effort to check teams so clubs dont abuse it and put down players who have retired or left the club or such. most clubs are fairly decent about it all anyway and I cant say it causes much bother.

mrgaa1

I understand where you are coming from. However I don't think the system is entirely fair in that if theres a few divisions between the 1st and 2nd teams someone who is making it onto the 1st team and plays on the 2nd team should be sharper and fitter than their opponents giving an advantage to that 2nd team over their opponents.
Their opponents may not have the luxury of calling upon other players from a higher division team and most certainly they can't ask neighbouring clubs for a "lend" of a few players.

The official guide doesn't take care of this issue and it appears counties have different views on how this should work.

One county states that the 1st team names 24 players who can not play for the 2nd team. Everyone else can play for both teams. Therefore player number 25 can play for the 2nds in a lower division and also play for the 1st team in the higher division. As the county states that all divisions are senior then player number 25 could play in the junior championship, possibly play in a higher championship (but not return to the lower championship) and still play for both 1st and 2nd teams as Rule 6.20 of the official guide doesn't apply.
It is widely known that the 24 players named are not correct - some players named are abroad and have been for a number of years. In fact in one case I heard player number 25 actually started the first league game for his 1st team and played other games through out the league for both teams.

Unfortunately this all comes down to self-policing which doesn't work as non second teams in the relevant divisions work of a panel of 22-28.

Its important that people get games but if theres a panel of 22-28 for most clubs then there will always be players who don't regular games but thats the way it goes - i suppose.

Frank Spencer

I should have mentioned that in Dublin once a player has played 4 games in certain league he is ineligible to play in a lower league for the remainder of the season. That in theory should stop a player not on the list of twenty playing with two teams over the entire course of the season.

mrgaa1

Frank Spencer wrote: »

I should have mentioned that in Dublin once a player has played 4 games in certain league he is ineligible to play in a lower league for the remainder of the season. That in theory should stop a player not on the list of twenty playing with two teams over the entire course of the season.

How is that checked? Do you have access to the rule or regulation for that? That sounds like a good idea.

bruschi

mrgaa1 wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from. However I don't think the system is entirely fair in that if theres a few divisions between the 1st and 2nd teams someone who is making it onto the 1st team and plays on the 2nd team should be sharper and fitter than their opponents giving an advantage to that 2nd team over their opponents.
Their opponents may not have the luxury of calling upon other players from a higher division team and most certainly they can't ask neighbouring clubs for a "lend" of a few players.

The official guide doesn't take care of this issue and it appears counties have different views on how this should work.

One county states that the 1st team names 24 players who can not play for the 2nd team. Everyone else can play for both teams. Therefore player number 25 can play for the 2nds in a lower division and also play for the 1st team in the higher division. As the county states that all divisions are senior then player number 25 could play in the junior championship, possibly play in a higher championship (but not return to the lower championship) and still play for both 1st and 2nd teams as Rule 6.20 of the official guide doesn't apply.
It is widely known that the 24 players named are not correct - some players named are abroad and have been for a number of years. In fact in one case I heard player number 25 actually started the first league game for his 1st team and played other games through out the league for both teams.

Unfortunately this all comes down to self-policing which doesn't work as non second teams in the relevant divisions work of a panel of 22-28.

Its important that people get games but if theres a panel of 22-28 for most clubs then there will always be players who don't regular games but thats the way it goes - i suppose.

on the first point, it seems you are making the point that one clubs first team wont be as sharp as another second team? granted one or 2 players form the first higher grade would help, but a clubs first team should always be more than capable of playing anothers second.

as for the second point, I completley disagree with players not getting a chance to play. no player should be in a position where he cant play a game every week just beacue of technicalities. my own opinion is that naming a panel of 24 is far far too much. thats 9 players who cant start, and 4 who have no chance of getting a game each week. thats not the way it should be. it wouldnt be that way for championship. you can only play 15 players, and how can lads on the subs or the fringes of a team get a chance if they cant play for their seconds?

have you had a bad experience with an opposing club or something to bring up this topic?

in wexford, if you dont play championship for the first team, you can play for the second team, up until you play for the higher team. and thats the way it should be. once you play for the firsts, you then have to be regraded to go back to the lower championship grade. only 8 are allowed be regraded from a club team each year.

that point made about playing 4 times is a good one alright.

Frank Spencer

mrgaa1 wrote: »

How is that checked? Do you have access to the rule or regulation for that? That sounds like a good idea.

It's something that can be retrospectively checked as all teams must submit a list of players to the referee.

The rule reads as follows:

A player may not play in any lower league division if he has played in more than three games in
any higher league division(s) in the same season. Penalty – Team – Loss of match to opponents on
objection. Player – 4 weeks suspension.

theoneeyedman

bruschi wrote: »

in wexford you have to put forward your list of first 15 players. none of those named can play for the second team. if there is a third team, then the next 15 players are named, and they cant play for the third team. but if you are not named, you can play for any team. its a bit open to abuse, but the fixtures committee can see any glaring ommissions or abuses by checking across the named championship teams from the previous year.

Roscommon is similar tothis ....name 15 and anyone else canplay on 2nd team etc in league. Once you play say senior championship you are immediately inelligable for lower grade championship. A club can regrade I think 4 at end of each year for following championship. Any team can progress up the divisions starting at junior b, junior a, intermediate etc. No club can have 2 teams in same championship, happened a few years ago when strokestown were relegated from senior and won junior a in same year and 2nd team could not be promoted. Not unusual for bigger clubs to compete at intermediate level, castlerea St Bridget's and clan NA ngael have all done it in last 10 years with Bridget's reaching final last year

mrgaa1

A lot of counties seem to have 2nd or more teams playing within their leagues. The issue that I have with them is that clubs can abuse this setup and it appears now that most counties have their own interpretation of how this should be implemented.
For example a club I know were playing a vital 5th division league game and the opponents had two players not named in their "select list" but had regularly been playing for their 1st team (this 1st team played in the 1st division) playing in the vital league game. The two players scored 7 points between them and subsequently won this match. No rules were broken but the fact the a player who is not named can play in two teams in a senior league is not fair on other clubs who don't have the luxury of selecting players from a higher division.

My point, i suppose, is that perhaps its time central council catered for this anomaly in a rule change. Everyone needs to play games but when a club can abuse a rule then there are issues.

bruschi

mrgaa1 wrote: »

A lot of counties seem to have 2nd or more teams playing within their leagues. The issue that I have with them is that clubs can abuse this setup and it appears now that most counties have their own interpretation of how this should be implemented.
For example a club I know were playing a vital 5th division league game and the opponents had two players not named in their "select list" but had regularly been playing for their 1st team (this 1st team played in the 1st division) playing in the vital league game. The two players scored 7 points between them and subsequently won this match. No rules were broken but the fact the a player who is not named can play in two teams in a senior league is not fair on other clubs who don't have the luxury of selecting players from a higher division.

My point, i suppose, is that perhaps its time central council catered for this anomaly in a rule change. Everyone needs to play games but when a club can abuse a rule then there are issues.

true, but I know its a non issue in Wexford, and most other counties have their own bye laws for how championships and leagues are run. by bringing in central council laws, you are going to mess up successfully run competitions throughout.

Make a submission through your club for the county convention. Frank Spencers point about playing 4 times for the first side ruling you out is a good one. and it is easily controlled, as every team has to submit gameday team sheets and subs introduced.

I know in Wexford most teams dont see the leagues as that important, and they are just good competetive games to get in shape for the championship, which is by far the most important. leagues take a significant backstep.