Clamping Refund – Am I legally entitled?

TippTopp

Hi

Don’t know if I’m posting in the right section but any help or guidance on this matter would be most appreciated.

I was clamped in an Irish Rail Car Park by NCPS for non payment and display of a parking ticket last week. However I did pay for my ticket and the ticket was on the dash however I admit not in clear position. Photographs of my car were taken from all angles, however none were taken from the dash at the driver’s side, as the ticket would have been visible. Regardless I had to pay my fine EUR125 to be declaimed but I was assured by the customers services rep that I would be refunded if I could prove that I had a valid ticket. So I made my appeal via the NCPS website where I also scanned my parking ticket and the enforcement notice to them to validate my claim. However this morning I received feedback from NCPS that they would not refund the EUR125 as the ticket was invalid as it was not clearly displayed, as in accordance with their site rules. However I could if I wish make a second appeal via their Independent Parking Appeals Service.:mad:

My question is what can I do now – is this or can I pursue this mater via the Small Claims Court or what option do I have in getting my refund back? Am I legally entitled to my refund once I was able to produce a valid parking ticket, which my understanding of a valid ticket was to be in date and for the location stated.

Again any help at all on the above would be most appreciated
Thanks a million:)

wmpdd3

I have no experience of this but there was an identical story like yours on here a good while ago. Exactly the same, pictures taken from each angle except the angle that would show the ticket.

Very suspicious.

As the ticket isnt issued by the council, but a private company you could have a successful appeal.

dudara

A valid parking ticket is not enough - it's a "Pay AND Display" car park. The onus is on you to make sure that the ticket is clearly visible.

It's a matter of debate or opinion as to how visible your ticket was.

wmpdd3

Here we go:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055909312

Hi,

Pretty sure I'm not the first one with this query. My wife was parked in a NCPS car park (coolmine train station) and as every morning she got the ticket and put in on the dashboard - passager side behind the insurance/tax/nct disks. when she got back to the car on the evening the car was clamped and she called them (NCPS) they claimed it was due to failing to display a valid ticket.

She got clamped for failing to show a valid ticket. She purchased the ticket that morning at 7:34 and displayed it on the dashboard but their pictures don't show it -of course !!! anyway after appealing the case through webappeal they rejected it saying the ticket is not valid until displayed and their operative could not see any ticket and the onus is on the user to clearly display the ticket.

I don't mind being fined if she hadn't paid but in this case she paid, displayed and still got fined. We have the ticket to prove she paid but then on the display it's their say and picture not showing the ticket off course against our say. Do we have any case ???

And they say to go further we can appeal this decision to the Independent Parking appeal services. Who are they ?

TippTopp

dudara wrote: »

A valid parking ticket is not enough - it's a "Pay AND Display" car park. The onus is on you to make sure that the ticket is clearly visible.

It's a matter of debate or opinion as to how visible your ticket was.

Hi Dudara,
I agree with you as it's really one person's word against another. But baffled as to why they did not photograph that area of the dash. But another point and not relating to my case, is what if a person purchased a ticket, placed it on the dash and when closing the door, it flew off the dash, surely there has to be some leeway when assessing claims, as fair enough it is the onus of the driver to have their ticket displayed clearly but mistakes can happen from both the driver and or clamper, as it is very strange that they did not photograph the area where the ticket was actually displayed.
Anyway would this type of issue be under the remit of the Small Claims or how can I get this redressed?

Thanks again

daheff

TippTopp wrote: »

, is what if a person purchased a ticket, placed it on the dash and when closing the door, it flew off the dash, surely there has to be some leeway when assessing claims, as fair enough it is the onus of the driver to have their ticket displayed clearly but

this is a very valid point. the tickets are extremely flimsy and light. I've had to stick a clothes peg on mine to stop it being blown by wind (on opening door) or by the air distrubance caused by closing the door. i nearly got caught out by this in connolly before (and before i started using the clothes peg). unbeknownst to me the ticket was blown off the dashboard....luckily for me it blew onto the passenger seat facing upwards. the parking attendant told me afterwards that they nearly clamped me.

daheff

Another point that comes to mind is the right of way that is afforded to people who have used a particular piece of land to walk/drive through over many years....is there any such thing for maybe some land being used for public parking for many years that such a right may be available?

I appreciate that this may be clutching at straws, but its more an observational maybe than anything else

TippTopp

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Here we go:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055909312

Thanks a million Wmpdd3 - I just read that thread. What was the outcome of your ordeal with the NCPS?

dudara

TippTopp wrote: »

But another point and not relating to my case, is what if a person purchased a ticket, placed it on the dash and when closing the door, it flew off the dash, surely there has to be some leeway when assessing claims

Again, the onus is on you to make sure it is displayed. This means taking the time time to doublecheck it after closing the door.

but mistakes can happen from both the driver and or clamper, as it is very strange that they did not photograph the area where the ticket was actually displayed.

This is why they generally try to take as many photos as possible, so as to remove any error or question.

Now, in your case, you say that they are missing a photo of the dash. I think this is the key point to follow up on. Lodge this as a complaint with the Independent Parking Appeals Service.

Re the Small Claims Court - I genuinely don't know if this issue falls into their remit. The best person to answer this is the clerk at your local courthouse (contact links).

Taken from Courts.ie

Type of claims dealt with
(a) a claim for goods or services bought for private use from someone selling them in the course of a business (consumer claims)

(b) a claim for goods or services bought for business use from someone selling them in the course of a business (business claims)

(c) a claim for minor damage to property (but excluding personal injuries)

(d) a claim for the non-return of a rent deposit for certain kinds of rented properties. For example, a holiday home or a room / flat in a premises where the owner also lives provided that a claim does not exceed €2,000.

Claims in respect of other matters relating to rented accommodation must be brought to: Private Residential Tenancies Board, 2nd Floor, O'Connell Bridge House, D'Olier Street, Dublin 2. Website: www.prtb.ie

Excluded from the small claims procedure are claims arising from:

(a) a hire-purchase agreement

(b) a breach of a leasing agreement

(c) debts

Paulw

daheff wrote: »

Another point that comes to mind is the right of way that is afforded to people who have used a particular piece of land to walk/drive through over many years....is there any such thing for maybe some land being used for public parking for many years that such a right may be available?

I appreciate that this may be clutching at straws, but its more an observational maybe than anything else

Totally clutching at straws. A right of way does not equal a right to park.

BrianD

Forget about small claims court but persist in your appeal.

The purpose of enforcement is so that you pay for your parking. You have done this.

DCC allow for a 50% refund if you have a valid ticket but some how it wasn't visible when the enforcers were about.

It is absolutely pointless for NCPS to take photos of the car with the clamp without taking a picture of the dashboard. Generally these photos are to show that the vehicle was clamped and to show where it was parked e.g. in a clearway, disabled space etc. That's all these will show. They will not proved for NCPS that no ticket was displayed (nor for you).

I notice that DSPS seem to be taking pictures of the dashboards of cars and in through the windows. I'm guessing that this is to show non-display or a ticket out of time.

I would also point out to NCPS that the ticket is not "invalid" if not display. The ticket is perfectly valid as it proves that you have paid for your parking.

Also NCPS would want to improve on their customer service and professionalism as there are no T&C's for parking to be found on their site. There should be one for every site they manage/enforce.

I have got a refund from NCPS before. Keep at them.

TippTopp

Right - well I've send a mail off to the Small Claims asking if this type of dispute would come under their remit - fingers crossed that they come back with something positive - please let it not be a pfo mail. I'll keep everyone posted on the developments on this, as the reason why I want to go down the Small Claims route is that I believe it's more impartial than the Independents Parking Appeals. As it seems to me that there is no or very little regulation within the industry.

Thanks BrianD - I agree with you, as fair enough I should have had the ticket displayed clearer and happy to take a hit of 50/50 but not full whack, particularly when I've paid. I could still hassle NCPS and be a pain in the backside for them but I would like to wait to see what the small claims has to say, as it is an issue that needs to be addressed so maybe you might hear me on Joe Duffy or someone similar.

I know it's a poor excuse but I do find the quality of the paper that the parking tickets very poor as in light. So much so that sometimes when I put the ticket into the plastic holder it tends to crunch up which you have to remove and start again. Which as we all know when you're against the clock at the train stations the oportunity of ensuring that ticket is intact, while racing to get a train is or was least of my problems. But for EUR125 I'm going to keep on at this

Thanks everyone for the posts as really appreciated

Kid Charlemagne

dudara wrote: »

A valid parking ticket is not enough - it's a "Pay AND Display" car park. The onus is on you to make sure that the ticket is clearly visible.

It's a matter of debate or opinion as to how visible your ticket was.

No it isnt in this case - the clampers have no photograph of the drivers dash area - therefore no proof that the ticket wasnt displayed. Therefore no leg to stand on in front of a judge. Guaranteed win in a court.

dudara

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

No it isnt in this case - the clampers have no photograph of the drivers dash area - therefore no proof that the ticket wasnt displayed. Therefore no leg to stand on in front of a judge. Guaranteed win in a court.

If you read my second post on the matter, you will see that this is exactly how I advised the OP to proceed. NCP have all the photos, except the one that matters.

The only question is if the OP will get his case in front of a judge, as we do not know if the Small Claims Court will accept the case.

Bella mamma

TippTopp wrote: »

Hi

Don’t know if I’m posting in the right section but any help or guidance on this matter would be most appreciated.

I was clamped in an Irish Rail Car Park by NCPS for non payment and display of a parking ticket last week. However I did pay for my ticket and the ticket was on the dash however I admit not in clear position. Photographs of my car were taken from all angles, however none were taken from the dash at the driver’s side, as the ticket would have been visible. Regardless I had to pay my fine EUR125 to be declaimed but I was assured by the customers services rep that I would be refunded if I could prove that I had a valid ticket. So I made my appeal via the NCPS website where I also scanned my parking ticket and the enforcement notice to them to validate my claim. However this morning I received feedback from NCPS that they would not refund the EUR125 as the ticket was invalid as it was not clearly displayed, as in accordance with their site rules. However I could if I wish make a second appeal via their Independent Parking Appeals Service.:mad:

My question is what can I do now – is this or can I pursue this mater via the Small Claims Court or what option do I have in getting my refund back? Am I legally entitled to my refund once I was able to produce a valid parking ticket, which my understanding of a valid ticket was to be in date and for the location stated.

Again any help at all on the above would be most appreciated
Thanks a million:)

Hi, as mentioned in your post above you were advised re an independent review. This was in the rejection letter your received and is your first post of call. See my post. Best of luck.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71517966

castie

I wonder if you could take a picture of a ticket being displayed which is not covered by their pictures would this be proof?

i.e you have a picture showing an area of the dash containing the ticket of which cannot be seen in their pictures.
Would this prove that the failed to inspect properly rather than you failed to display?

daheff

Paulw wrote: »

Totally clutching at straws. A right of way does not equal a right to park.

i think you misinterpreted my comment


my point was if you had always been able to park unhindered/ uncharged then there maybe a case similar to the right of way thing where people who were always able to cross an area of land have a legal right to continue to cross this area of land

apologies if again i am not explaining my point enough. I do however concede that this is clutching at straws

cbyrne11

Hi guys,

Bumping this thread because I am wondering how successful I might be in appealing a clamping fine I got this morning?

I parked my car in a loading bay last night, I checked the signs and it said 10.00-16.00 loading bay, there were signs either side pointing into the loading bay that said that, so I assumed my car would be ok, but when I came out this morning at about 8my car was clamped and said that it was park in a clearway. I called and got the clamp removed and I asked the clampers to point out the clearway sign and he pointed 30-35 ft down the road, passed a busstop that was inbetween the loading bay and another stretch of road that was unmarked, I argued with him that surely the loading bay signs should also mark it as a clearway but he said no that that signed cover the loading bay aswell.

Does anyone know what the rule on clearways are do they have to mark the start and end of them? Seems like a trap the way that the loading bay signs were marked.

It looked like there used to be another pole at the start of the loading bay that had been removed I assume that this used to mark the clearway, the comcrete on the path is broken so I assume that was what was there!

Any help that would be great.

Colin