Quade Cooper in the NZ Team

Fergus_Nash

I just thought of this a few minutes ago. If Cooper had stayed in NZ would he be on the team now? I expect so, but where would he fit in?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

I just thought of this a few minutes ago. If Cooper had stayed in NZ would he be on the team now? I expect so, but where would he fit in?

Second choice Flyhalf and currently starting with Carter's injury

Nowhere near the set up as he is a liability

OR

a completely different player due to more conservative coaching.

davegrohl48

I'v given Cooper a chance based on the good reports I was reading on here. I'v looked at him in the World Cup, I'v looked back at some tri-nations.
What is all the fuss about? Very inconsistent performer and regularly makes very damaging mistakes for his own side.
I don't think he would be around the New Zealand setup.
If this is some six month long bad run of form fair enough.
But it looks like his style of play is to every few minutes try something fancy. It often leaves to not much, and it often leads to a bad mistake. How can you rely on that at 10? Plus I haven't noticed him doing anything in defence in the games I'v watched.

Kiwi_knock

He would probably be the backup to Carter, a more strict coach would get him to cut out the stupid stuff from his game.

In response to davegrohl48, Cooper has been disappointing in this WC and on this basis a lot of people are writing him off. However if you watched any Super Rugby last year you would see what a fantastic player he is. His combination with Genia last year was superb, so it is a strange that these two seem not to be in sync with each other at this WC. Cooper controlled the game very well last year, and actually showed he had a kicking game something that has gone missing in this WC. Cooper's performances have been one of the real disappointments of this WC but hopefully he can turn it around against the All Blacks.

thomond2006

This year Cooper was out of this world for the Reds. He's struggling at the moment.

Reloc8

See e.g. Carlos Spencer although I'm not convinced Cooper has the same skill set and to be honest Spencer seemed to be more assured - everything is relative - Spencer also a defensive liability.

(Spencers stats - 1995 - 2004, 35 sporadic caps, 291 points, Mehrtens preferred generally although Spencer was first choice 2003 world cup)

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

Nowhere near the set up as he is a liability when not at his best

OR

a completely different player due to more persuasive / rounded coaching.

pretty much exactly this

JustinDee

Reloc8 wrote: »

See e.g. Carlos Spencer although I'm not convinced Cooper has the same skill set and to be honest Spencer seemed to be more assured - everything is relative - Spencer also a defensive liability

Not much difference between the two players.
Both unbelievable when on-form. Both a liability when anbandoning basics where basics needed.

handsomecake

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I'v given Cooper a chance based on the good reports I was reading on here. I'v looked at him in the World Cup, I'v looked back at some tri-nations.
What is all the fuss about? Very inconsistent performer and regularly makes very damaging mistakes for his own side.
I don't think he would be around the New Zealand setup.
If this is some six month long bad run of form fair enough.
But it looks like his style of play is to every few minutes try something fancy. It often leaves to not much, and it often leads to a bad mistake. How can you rely on that at 10? Plus I haven't noticed him doing anything in defence in the games I'v watched.

to be fair he could walk on water during the super 15 but he is playing like a knob end at the moment.

expect him and sir richard to hanve handbags at twelve paces during the semi and for every touch of the ball he gets to be met with a boo and a hiss.

i think a lot of the super 15 players especially ones who got to latter rounds are burnt out .ridiculous season

handsomecake

beale and o connor havnt set the world alight in the rwc either.

irishbucsfan

handsomecake wrote: »

to be fair he could walk on water during the super 15 but he is playing like a knob end at the moment.

expect him and sir richard to hanve handbags at twelve paces during the semi and for every touch of the ball he gets to be met with a boo and a hiss.

i think a lot of the super 15 players especially ones who got to latter rounds are burnt out .ridiculous season

It could also be that tackling is non existent at times in the SXV whereas at international level it very much is. And Cooper is no fan of that.

handsomecake

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It could also be that tackling is non existent at times in the SXV whereas at international level it very much is. And Cooper is no fan of that.

true but im referring really to his attacking prowess. he hasnt made many trade mark like breaks of note

Fergus_Nash

Another question that I will put to all of you guys. Can he play in any other positions? Full-back or wing? Would he be a good first centre or is that just stupid?

MungBean

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Another question that I will put to all of you guys. Can he play in any other positions? Full-back or wing? Would he be a good first centre or is that just stupid?

He could probably play full back as he seems to drop back there from time to time and let Beale take over his defensive duties at 10. He doesnt seem to have the defensive ability to play anywhere else though.

handsomecake

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

Another question that I will put to all of you guys. Can he play in any other positions? Full-back or wing? Would he be a good first centre or is that just stupid?

played first centre when he initially broke into aussies. you might remember him with mullet haircut. scored an outlandish try against leicester mid week

handsomecake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KEGIvxxRxU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9fcbgOqLYo

o gara is mister dependable and your go-to-guy but the likes of him and johnny wilkinson can only dream of being able to do some of that stuff.

whether there is a need for that sort of flamboyance is a debate for another day though.some would argue-no and this rwc would back that up. he has tried to force everything and berrick barnes looks far more structured. its entertaining though

handsomecake

although he makes arwell thomas look good in this one

duckysauce

Hope he gets right up mc caws nose , runs around donald duck , and gets the crowd into a boiling hissy fit, bnz implode and go out all feigning injury ,Aussies then get beaten in the final by les frogs.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

he's overrated just 'cos he has some flash moves like those completely unnecessary flick hand passes. like this one, why didn't he throw out a regular pass:
[

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hquX4PlNqyw

and people have the nerve to compare him to carter, cooper isn't fit to lace dan's boots.

duckysauce

georgiecasey wrote: »

he's overrated just 'cos he has some flash moves like those completely unnecessary flick hand passes. like this one, why didn't he throw out a regular pass:
[

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hquX4PlNqyw

and people have the nerve to compare him to carter, cooper isn't fit to lace dan's boots.

neither is Dan unfortunately

handsomecake

duckysauce wrote: »

Hope he gets right up mc caws nose , runs around donald duck , and gets the crowd into a boiling hissy fit, bnz implode and go out all feigning injury ,Aussies then get beaten in the final by les frogs.

so do i.it would be classic

duckysauce

handsomecake wrote: »

so do i.it would be classic

classic and your bnz lose ?

handsomecake

duckysauce wrote: »

classic and your bnz lose ?

yeah it would be deadly

duckysauce

sweet

GerM

As IBF said, Cooper looks great in the S15 because of how it is played. It's glorified tag. I love watching it but the levels of intensity and defence are way, way down on test rugby and even HEC rugby. The game is entirely focussed on attack which suits Cooper perfectly. There are over 40 points scored in the majority of games and in some there was scores that genuinely look more like basketball scores i.e. 50-47 this year. When he comes to test level the defences are all over him. They don't give him nearly the same amount of time to run, they don't give him the space to try anything and they pressure him to expose his complete inability to think under pressure. He's totally overrated due to his S15 form. I think if he left the S15, he'd be similar to Spencer who came north to great fanfare and, whilst he showed some moments of brilliance was a failure overall and ended up on the bench in his last season after being part of the Northampton team that was relegated from the Premiership two years before.

Reloc8

MungBean wrote: »

He could probably play full back as he seems to drop back there from time to time and let Beale take over his defensive duties at 10. He doesnt seem to have the defensive ability to play anywhere else though.

He's coached/directed to drop out of the defensive line off set pieces due to his defensive problems.

That's sometimes said to be also because of his counterattack but Beale is at least as damaging a player off loose kicks and obviously much more secure under a high ball.

If it were me, at the point where you're taking a guy out of harms way you have to consider whether he should be picked at all. Not to mention that dropping him back puts him in exactly the sort of position where he's likely to pull a mentaller.

And they left Giteau at home...unbelievable in a world cup year.

Reloc8

georgiecasey wrote: »

he's overrated just 'cos he has some flash moves like those completely unnecessary flick hand passes. like this one, why didn't he throw out a regular pass:

and people have the nerve to compare him to carter, cooper isn't fit to lace dan's boots.

Actually on that particular play he's done exceptionally well. The tackle is coming in from his left, and had he tried to make an orthodox pass to the same player as he flung it out to, it probably would have smothered him/caused a knock on.

shaggykev

He reminds me of Freddie Michalak of France and we all know what Freddie dud to N Z in 07.


He can either have a stinker or be sublime but to unlock NZ you need to have that little bit of magic. He very well may have another stinker on Sunday bit you're unlikely to beat NZ with an O Gara type 10

What price Cooper to be MOTM?

GerM

handsomecake wrote: »

played first centre when he initially broke into aussies. you might remember him with mullet haircut. scored an outlandish try against leicester mid week

I prefer to remember him for waving BOD under the posts in 2009 for the try that tied the game in the last second.

CatFromHue

In fairness to Cooper he looked very exciting against a lot of the Super 15 teams. As mentioned above there is many different reasons this is.
When it got to the knock out stages and in the final particularly he was found wanting and it was more Genia who controlled the team. Carter outclassed him in the final if you ask me.
The final would be the closest thing to international rugby where small mistakes are ruthlessly punished.

pickarooney

He seems to do exceptionally well when nobody tries to tackle him. The RWC is a bit of a 'Wet November Wednesday in Stoke' for him I suspect.

.ak

I find it very hard to see Cooper on an AB team. Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is one of the most skillful players in rugby union, but the one thing the AB's pride themselves on with Carter is a strong midfield in both offense and defense. Cooper offers the first, but severely lacks in the latter. One facet of Carter's play is his defense. He's like having an extra center running all over the pitch and making some genuinely strong tackles. Even the second and third choice AB 10's have this ability (Cruden looked fairly strong at points in the game). Cooper is allergic to this kind of stuff.

Digifriendly

.ak wrote: »

I find it very hard to see Cooper on an AB team. Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is one of the most skillful players in rugby union, but the one thing the AB's pride themselves on with Carter is a strong midfield in both offense and defense. Cooper offers the first, but severely lacks in the latter. One facet of Carter's play is his defense. He's like having an extra center running all over the pitch and making some genuinely strong tackles. Even the second and third choice AB 10's have this ability (Cruden looked fairly strong at points in the game). Cooper is allergic to this kind of stuff.

Excellent and very perceptive post. You should apply for Declan Kidney's job when he eventually goes.

duckysauce

he is stirring it up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/australia/8822229/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-New-Zealand-cant-handle-pressure-says-Australias-Quade-Cooper-ahead-of-semi.html

Fishooks12

Cooper was top class in the tri-nations decider so I wouldn't talk him down just yet.

NZ looked rudderless against Argentina and I reckon the Aussies could have the measure of them in a tight game given the pressure that will be on the NZ 10

GerM

I thought his major contribution in the Tri-Nations decider was kneeing McCaw in the head which should have earned him several weeks holiday. Genia was the spark that won that game for Australia, creating two tries and Samo scorching in an individual effort. I thought Cooper was very aimless and when NZ got on the front foot and dominated for about 25-30 minutes he was unable to take the pressure off his forwards at all. All in all, I think that the writing was on the wall for his form in this WC in the Tri-Nations. His performance in the away match to NZ was the stuff of nightmares.

I really wouldn't have him in a test side. He might do something brilliant and win you a game but there's a good chance that the other side are only in the game because he can't control proceedings whatsoever. Any player that needs to be hidden away from tackling shouldn't be playing test level.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I don't care that they were 29-3 up, this could be most ridiculous thing I've seen a 10 do in a game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHUiR2jbcA

irishbucsfan

georgiecasey wrote: »

I don't care that they were 29-3 up, this could be most ridiculous thing I've seen a 10 do in a game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGHUiR2jbcA

He had the advantage, there was no risk involved really. Brilliant stuff.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had the advantage, there was no risk involved really. Brilliant stuff.

Oh right, I missed that. Still think he's overrated though.

Wouldn't mind a few more Knees landing their way onto McCaw's head tbh

handsomecake

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He had the advantage, there was no risk involved really. Brilliant stuff.

absolutely love those commentators . as biased as they can be they are far more entertaining and knowledgable than some of the clowns we get this side of the equator

handsomecake

AdamD wrote: »

Wouldn't mind a few more Knees landing their way onto McCaw's head tbh

nice

handsomecake

GerM wrote: »

I thought his major contribution in the Tri-Nations decider was kneeing McCaw in the head which should have earned him several weeks holiday. Genia was the spark that won that game for Australia, creating two tries and Samo scorching in an individual effort. I thought Cooper was very aimless and when NZ got on the front foot and dominated for about 25-30 minutes he was unable to take the pressure off his forwards at all. All in all, I think that the writing was on the wall for his form in this WC in the Tri-Nations. His performance in the away match to NZ was the stuff of nightmares.

I really wouldn't have him in a test side. He might do something brilliant and win you a game but there's a good chance that the other side are only in the game because he can't control proceedings whatsoever. Any player that needs to be hidden away from tackling shouldn't be playing test level.

another big difference in the game in brizzy was the absence of kaino.
he takes no guff and gets over the advantage line. think sean o brien on weetabix + lucozade

CatFromHue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZbWpVoLg4c

Watch from 3.20 to see Coopers tackle on Nonu's try that equalled the score with 20 mins to play.

handsomecake

CatFromHue wrote: »

Watch from 3.20 to see Coopers tackle on Nonu's try that equalled the score with 20 mins to play.

turnstile

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

handsomecake wrote: »

turnstile

at least a turnstile makes contact and you're slowed down a bit, cooper didn't even attempt a tackle. though i wouldn't be too keen on nonu in full flight running at you either!

Kiwi_knock

Yeah Cooper can not tackle and he hates being tackled as well. Playing him is like carrying a passenger in defence but the Reds and the Wallabies seem to be coping quite well with it. Cooper on his day is brillant but if the game starts getting tough then he starts making the stupid mistakes. I still think he can have a great game against NZ, no chance would I drop him for Barnes.

Don't understand what the point of Cooper trying to tackle Nonu there is tbh.

Understand why people are shocked that he didn't, but he's never ever ever ever stopping him there. It's an exercise in futility. Damned if you do, damned if you don't make the effort.

CatFromHue

Not really Emmet, if you look again Cooper could have put in a tackle 5 to 7m away from the line. Even if he just slows him down there are enough defenders close enough to get back and support him. Both Beale and McCabe are covering across and are just a meter away as he scores the try.

Remember this is the Tri Nations deciding game and this score puts the game at 20 all with 20 mins to go.

GerM

I think it's not only his tackling but his positioning is shocking also. He was in no man's land and couldn't have stopped Nonu from there. It was the same for BOD's try in 2009 when he shot out of the line 5m from his own line and BOD waltzed under the posts. Half of the game of rugby is played without the ball and Cooper is atrocious at it.