Which large haulage companies dodge tolls?

Amtmann

I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

-Corkie-

Tremelo wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

Most of them are using the old roads especially the N4 and N8. Luceys only use the PPP at peak times btw.

road_high

I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.

-Corkie-

mfitzy wrote: »

I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.

Thats true but managment dont look at the bigger picture. The trucks are burning more Diesel idling in traffic in these towns plus eating up brakes/clutches in slow moving traffic. You are also wasting driving time (Tachograph hours) using the old roads. Your chances of having an accident are greatly increased using the older roads also.

Amtmann

Also, isn't there a tax rebate on tolls that companies can avail of?

road_high

-Corkie- wrote: »

Thats true but managment dont look at the bigger picture. The trucks are burning more Diesel idling in traffic in these towns plus eating up brakes/clutches in slow moving traffic. You are also wasting driving time (Tachograph hours) using the old roads. Your chances of having an accident are greatly increased using the older roads also.

That's very true re road safety but I'm not so sure about the fuel issue. Just using my own example of Kilkenny-Dublin, a few years back pre M9 I generally always went via N78 Athy. It's about 70 miles or less on this old road. The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
Granted the time savings and road safety and ease of driving far outweigh the (minor negatives), I bet you the haulage co.s consider these things and throw in a hefty toll the new motorways don't look so appealing. The old roads seem to take shorter mileage routes across the country and the towns along them are no longer such bottleknecks at all.

I can't understand why the Toll companies don't do some kind of deals with the hauliers, like a per year pass with a decent discount. At the moment the tolls seem to penalise (or don't reward enough) those that use them most which should not be the case.

kerosene

Thats a good point mfitzy. Not just the hauliers though, thousands of people are avoiding the tolls daily because of cost. If there was a weekly ticket like you can get on public transport, that could be used on all tolls more people would be likely to take it up.

dev100

mfitzy wrote: »

That's very true re road safety but I'm not so sure about the fuel issue. Just using my own example of Kilkenny-Dublin, a few years back pre M9 I generally always went via N78 Athy. It's about 70 miles or less on this old road. The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
Granted the time savings and road safety and ease of driving far outweigh the (minor negatives), I bet you the haulage co.s consider these things and throw in a hefty toll the new motorways don't look so appealing. The old roads seem to take shorter mileage routes across the country and the towns along them are no longer such bottleknecks at all.

I can't understand why the Toll companies don't do some kind of deals with the hauliers, like a per year pass with a decent discount. At the moment the tolls seem to penalise (or don't reward enough) those that use them most which should not be the case.

Penny wise and Pound foolish. Its down to greed by the government and the toll road companies.

antoobrien

mfitzy wrote: »

The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
Granted the time savings

The time savings will outweigh "heavy right foot syndrome" wrt fuel costs.

I tend to drive about the posted speed limit of the road (1.4l petrol), before Kilbeggan to Athlone was opened up on the M6 I was getting approx 34mpg. Since the M6 was completed into Galway I'm getting about 38.5mpg. That works out at an average 45km (approx 4l) extra per tank or at current prices about €6. It's also at least 45 minutes quicker to get from home to dwelling (no major difference in the distances traveled either).

There's also less ware & tear on the tyres, clutch & brakes, so the maintenance costs will naturally be lower. All of this will apply even more to haulage drivers.

I suppose an easy way to force them onto the tolls would be to start issuing delivery licenses for towns on tolled routes like they've done in Dublin since the port tunnel opened (part of the 5 axle ban).

Bullseye1

Do they actually save money by dodging the tolls? I would imagine the journey is longer and if stuck in traffic more fuel is consumed?

Bullseye1

There should be a reduced VAT rate on diesel for haulage companies. A significant number have gone out of business as a result of increased costs such as fuel. If the government can give this reduction to the Agricultrual Industry then why not the Haulage industry too. It would also help control inflation.

hi5

I thought they could claim the VAT back on diesel,but not the duty.
AFAIK farmers dont pay duty either.

niloc1951

mfitzy wrote: »

I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.

Here's an example of how the authorities have it sorted in France.
The D810 is parallel to the tolled A63, between Dax and Bayonne.
HGV's (>7.5t) are not allowed on the D810 unless making deliveries or collections on the route and the Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.

The 7.5t limit is becoming increasing common for deter heavies from using N or D roads where Autoroutes are available as an alternative.

See relevant signage below

reiger

alot of people talking rubbish here,they dont have a clue what it takes to run a fleet of trucks,with fuel bills going through the roof,and the like of Stobarts under cutting contracts to the bone.

will ye give lads a break avoiding tolls is one way of trying to keep costs down.some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns,please your making comparasions with you and your 1.4 car and a haulage company,come on now dont let yourself down there.

haulage companys have the pros and the cons weighed up of avoiding tolls.

ebbsy

Tremelo wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

Maybe you need to make yourself familiar with the economics of trucking companies, instead of guessing what might be happening ?

PaudyW

Far play to them, i dont take any toll road if i can help it, no matter what im driving,

Amtmann

ebbsy wrote: »

Maybe you need to make yourself familiar with the economics of trucking companies, instead of guessing what might be happening ?

What a peculiar post. Do you object to some part of my OP? If you're informed, please do enlighten us all.

ebbsy

Tremelo wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

Either you are for it or against it. You seem to be covering all bases.

Amtmann

ebbsy wrote: »

Either you are for it or against it. You seem to be covering all bases.

1. Clearly my post is about acquiring more information than I already have.
2. I'm sure that everyone, including lorry drivers, would prefer to use the motorways.
3. Yes, I'm covering all bases. If you don't want to contribute to the thread in a more constructive way, you can take yourself elsewhere. Petulant posts coming from nowhere aren't acceptable.

niloc1951

reiger wrote: »

...............some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns...............

If you are referring to '............Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.' in my earlier post, what is required of a driver of a >7.5t truck is documents indicating he/she has a deliver/collection to make on the restricted road, there is no 'licencing' procedure.

antoobrien

niloc1951 wrote: »

If you are referring to '............Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.' in my earlier post, what is required of a driver of a >7.5t truck is documents indicating he/she has a deliver/collection to make on the restricted road, there is no 'licencing' procedure.

No, was going on about my post where I suggested a port tunnel style licensing to force them onto the tolled roads.

reiger wrote: »

will ye give lads a break avoiding tolls is one way of trying to keep costs down.some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns,please your making comparasions with you and your 1.4 car and a haulage company,come on now dont let yourself down there.

I didn't let myself down, I put forth an opinion based on some figures I'm familiar with. It would be you who has let yourself down with an opinion that is not backed up by any discernible evidence.

The business practice of dodging tolls is one that many people don't understand. Then again a lot of businesses in Ireland think increasing productivity can be achieved by threatening people's jobs with while at the same time restricting their means to carry out those jobs - this is questionable to anybody with an ounce of sense in their body (but then many people want the banks to return to 2007 lending practices as if that was a normal situation not something which has been shown to be grossly unsustainable).

I illustrated how the fuel efficiency & maintenance costs have improved for my puny 1.4l petrol engined car since the motorway network has opened. I am told that diesel engines are much less forgiving than petrol engines with maintenance and given that your average haulier will do several times the mileage of a private car in a year the I'd imagine that they'd need much more frequent and costly maintenance. Given all that I imagine that the same principals would apply to trucks.

How about providing some facts for your opinion that toll dodging is saving the hauliers money. You can start with providing fuel efficiency figures for trucks for on motorway and off motorway driving.

L1011

One of the beancounters in work figured out that all tolls bar the M4 are cost-beneficial in salary terms alone - due to the time savings - and that the M4 becomes cost-beneficial on salary+fuel alone. This isn't counting the significantly lower wear on braking/suspension and lower collision (with associated downtime and repair cost) risk.

Fleet is all cars, so the time difference is more than a truck gets, though.

Remember that the prices quoted are VAT inclusive, at that. Haulage firms won't be paying all of that.

sealgaire

True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway

L1011

sealgaire wrote: »

True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway

Fuel consumption difference on the vehicles we had when the pointy head worked it out was negligable between 100 and 120. It was bloody massive between 60 and 120.

Difference for trucks is being able to cruise continously at the same speed as their max on the old roads was rather than stop/start through towns. Trucks should benefit more from fuel savings than a passenger vehicle.

cargo

Tremelo wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

South Coast draw tankers into Glanbia in Ballyragget so would be coming off at Urlingford to turh right in Durrow for Glanbia. (yes they could come further North before getting off the Mway but it would nearly be worse as they'd be coming cross country froom Ballacolla)

Not sure if they do it for through loads to Dublin but I've often sen them heading for Glanbia on this route.

AugustusMinimus

sealgaire wrote: »

True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway

Aren't Heavy Good Vehicles limited to 80kph ?

And to whoever asked, VAT registered Haulage companies can claim back the VAT on diesel. They can't claim back the duty.

-Corkie-

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Aren't Heavy Good Vehicles limited to 80kph ?

Nope about 90kph in most cases. Most of the N.I trucks are limited to well lets say as hard as she will go..:)

fl&sh

-Corkie- wrote: »

Nope about 90kph in most cases

the national maximum speed limit for HGVs IS 80kph.

As a driver myself,its left up to me wether i use the tolled roads or not.the company i work for has no problem repaying me the cost but i refuse to use them.the NRA have not placed the toll prices to incentify companys to use them IMO.

donkey balls

Most large transport companies use the new tolls as they do reduce fuel consumption and employee costs ot etc,As for them been called motorways is a joke more like glorified dual carriageways the NRA are either f**king morans or inept in their job,Between Limerick and Dublin there is one layby that HGV/cars can pull in to even then there is no run in space for a hgv to get up to speed to rejoin the road.:mad:
As for the tolls them selves a truck going from Dublin to Cork and back could end up going through six tolls for that journey which adds up over a year if the trip is done on a daily basis,Also to tax a hgv you could be looking at anything over €2000 up to €3000 a year.

Bagenal

cargo wrote: »

South Coast draw tankers into Glanbia in Ballyragget so would be coming off at Urlingford to turh right in Durrow for Glanbia. (yes they could come further North before getting off the Mway but it would nearly be worse as they'd be coming cross country froom Ballacolla)

Not sure if they do it for through loads to Dublin but I've often sen them heading for Glanbia on this route.

The bit about going to Glanbia, Ballyragget is spot on.

The one gripe I have about the motorways in Ireland regarding trucks is the "no overtaking rule". The basics of this is that any vehicle whose speed limit is 80km/h must not use the outside lane of a motorway. I reckon some civil servant looked at the motorway rules in the UK, seen this bit & decided to put it in the rules here completely ignoring the fact that it only applies to three lane motorways in the UK. AFAIK there are no three lane motorways in Ireland, I've only come accross two lane ones. I wrote to a certain minister of transport regarding this a couple of years ago & got a moronic answer in reply. :rolleyes:

As for the toll issue, take a truck going from Cork to Belfast & back via the M50, perhaps add up the toll costs on that & see what it comes to.

L1011

Most of the M50, sections of M1, M2, planned for more M1 in the short term. M4, M7 in the long term.

UK has plenty of two lane motorway too.

fl&sh

Bagenal wrote: »

AFAIK there are no three lane motorways in Ireland, I've only come accross two lane ones.

there are a few around Dublin.

if i'm not mistaken the IRHA took a test case and won it on the grounds that it should only apply on a three lane carrigway and not the most common two lane found here.

i know of a lad that does kerry-Dublin with his first drop off near rathcormac (20km outside cork).if he was to use the motorway exclusively he would have to pay three tolls on his way up and two on the way back,5 x 5.70.

to avoid the tolls it only takes 30-35mins max longer and 10km extra.NO brainer for large haulage firms.

Bagenal

Bagenal wrote: »

AFAIK there are no three lane motorways in Ireland, I've only come accross two lane ones.

.

I shot myself there alright, I should have said other than the M50 & the other few bits of 3 laners.
I stand corrected. Eating humble pie now lol

niloc1951

fl&sh wrote: »

........................if i'm not mistaken the IRHA took a test case and won it on the grounds that it should only apply on a three lane carrigway.................

I'm not surprised as the rule in other jurisdictions only applied to 3 or more lane motorways AND here they wrote the regulation to apply to motorways and not dual carriageways.
So, for example, it's an offence to drive on the outside lane of the 2 lane M7 as far as Naas but not on the 3 lane N7 from Naas to to Newlands Cross.
Such b@ll@cks could only be brought into law here.

Bagenal

niloc1951 wrote: »

I'm not surprised as the rule in other jurisdictions only applied to 3 or more lane motorways AND here they wrote the regulation to apply to motorways and not dual carriageways.
So, for example, it's an offence to drive on the outside lane of the 2 lane M7 as far as Naas but not on the 3 lane N7 from Naas to to Newlands Cross.
Such b@ll@cks could only brought into law here.

I agree with ya on that

dowlingm

All trucks going into bypassed towns with a guards barracks should be subjected to random tacho and other safety checks - at least 1 hour/day every day at random times to try and stay ahead of truckers messaging each other. Fermoy would be a good example.

donkey balls

dowlingm wrote: »

All trucks going into bypassed towns with a guards barracks should be subjected to random tacho and other safety checks - at least 1 hour/day every day at random times to try and stay ahead of truckers messaging each other. Fermoy would be a good example.

And what is that going to acheive? considering the majority of Gardai would not know what to look for;).

fl&sh

dowlingm wrote: »

All trucks going into bypassed towns with a guards barracks should be subjected to random tacho and other safety checks - at least 1 hour/day every day at random times to try and stay ahead of truckers messaging each other. Fermoy would be a good example.

are you saying that to make drivers or companys pay tolls it should be made as aukward as possible to bypass these toll plazas???

veryangryman

fl&sh wrote: »

are you saying that to make drivers or companys pay tolls it should be made as aukward as possible to bypass these toll plazas???

Limerick City Council did this (witness dock road) so why not anywhere else.

Truckers should stick to the main routes. A ban from all bypassed towns (barring those with business in the towns themselves) would be the right idea. Even if it meant lifting tolls for them a la port tunnel, it wouldnt be a bad idea.

I am of course reminded of that RSA ad mentioning a guy hit by an Artic Lorry outside Fermoy on (guess what) the old road.

Bagenal

dowlingm wrote: »

All trucks going into bypassed towns with a guards barracks should be subjected to random tacho and other safety checks - at least 1 hour/day every day at random times to try and stay ahead of truckers messaging each other. Fermoy would be a good example.

If it was required to force trucks to use motorways instead of the the roads they replaced then perhaps do as the French did & put strictly enforced weight limits on the old roads. If this was done then there would'nt be a need for tacho checking, checking tachos is not an easy task especially the modern electronic ones that require a computer to check.

SeanW

veryangryman wrote: »

I am of course reminded of that RSA ad mentioning a guy hit by an Artic Lorry outside Fermoy on (guess what) the old road.

Complain to the Minister for Transport. It's the government that decided to have these motorways tolled when the towns in question don't have internal bypasses, like Kilcock, Enfield (sort of) and Kinnegad (had before they let the town grow onto it).

Anyone with half a brain could have seen that tolling a town's primary bypass was going to lead to congestion in the town caused by toll avoidance.

Everyone except the government that is ...

donkey balls

Bagenal wrote: »

If it was required to force trucks to use motorways instead of the the roads they replaced then perhaps do as the French did & put strictly enforced weight limits on the old roads. If this was done then there would'nt be a need for tacho checking, checking tachos is not an easy task especially the modern electronic ones that require a computer to check.

Were did you get that info from? the new ones are easier to read as it prints off like a shopping till receipt and tells you how many hours you have drove and any breaks taken along with other work.
As for the tolls only in Ireland would the then minister for transport dempsey sign deals with private companies that if they don't make a profit that the Irish tax payer would pay the difference,And this one really pisses me off some time ago the RSA/Gardai and the UK authority had over 7,000 complaints about dodgy transport companies operating from Ireland.
Now in any other country the transport licence would be revoked and the company shut down and pay massive fines,what did dempsey do SFA he stated that to revoke an operators licence would have implications of that person making a living so by him implying that does it mean I can go out and get pissed and when stopped for drink driving and brought to court I could plead that to take my licence away is denying me a living.:rolleyes:
As for the new roads there piss poor compared to the UK&Europe

veryangryman

donkey balls wrote: »

[/B]
I could plead that to take my licence away is denying me a living.:rolleyes:
As for the new roads there piss poor compared to the UK&Europe

The UK has 50 million people - alot more money to finance good roads, which are already VERY congested. Yes they are moving in the most part, but you dont get the empty stretches we do. Many M roads we have are overspecced. M3 beyond Navan and M9 after Carlow some good examples.

Europe? Wow, generalise much? For a country with the population base we have, the roads aint that bad. So discounting big countries (Spain, France, Germany, Italy), see if you can back the statement up.

Proportionate to our population, the roads are quite good. And no i dont think they couldnt be better.

donkey balls

veryangryman wrote: »

The UK has 50 million people - alot more money to finance good roads, which are already VERY congested. Yes they are moving in the most part, but you dont get the empty stretches we do. Many M roads we have are overspecced. M3 beyond Navan and M9 after Carlow some good examples.

Europe? Wow, generalise much? For a country with the population base we have, the roads aint that bad. So discounting big countries (Spain, France, Germany, Italy), see if you can back the statement up.

Proportionate to our population, the roads are quite good. And no i dont think they couldnt be better.

Overspecced are you for real :rolleyes:the surfaces on some of these new so called motorways are a disgrace, what about the fact if you leave Shannon airport heading for Dublin there is only one layby to pull into and thats just passed Limerick so between Birdhill untill Dublin there is no place to pull up in case of an emergency.
Also there is no run in space to build your speed back up to join the road at a speed that other vehicles are travelling.

Irish and Proud

donkey balls wrote: »

Overspecced are you for real :rolleyes:the surfaces on some of these new so called motorways are a disgrace, what about the fact if you leave Shannon airport heading for Dublin there is only one layby to pull into and thats just passed Limerick so between Birdhill untill Dublin there is no place to pull up in case of an emergency.
Also there is no run in space to build your speed back up to join the road at a speed that other vehicles are travelling.

If you want to know what bad motorways are, you should try Belgium mate!!! :pac::pac::pac:

...and what Irish motorways are a disgrace and why? I was on the M50 many a time and from what I've experienced in European cities, the M50 is actually very good in terms of surface for an urban motorway - I know there's a bumpy section at Ballymount, but still. I travel the M1 regularly and while the pavement on the Drogheda Bypass is a little uneven in places, I wouldn't have any major complaints about the M1. The M3 in Meath is a motorway like I've never seen one before - the only other that compares IMO is the new AP-7 from Cartagena to Mazarron in Spain. Nothing wrong with the N11 DC/M sections - the Arklow Bypass is a bit course and a little uneven though. Was in the M7/M8 early last year and it was brilliant - heard the M6 and M9 is even better. Now, it is the 1990's since I was on the continent apart from Spain (2006 & 2009), but I heard that Belgium for example has still the same clapped out motorway network though a programme may be underway to rectify this.

Regards!

donkey balls

If you bothered to read my post I commented on the lack of layby on some of the motorways and when in place there is not enough run in space,I have managed to travel on all of the new roads here from start to finish and there is still some that are a bit rough which just happen to be on the toll road parts.
I'm not saying that all the roads are bad and remember when travelling down south or over to the west having to go through all the bottle neck towns like Kinnegad Fermoy etc.

Irish and Proud

donkey balls wrote: »

If you bothered to read my post I commented on the lack of layby on some of the motorways and when in place there is not enough run in space,I have managed to travel on all of the new roads here from start to finish and there is still some that are a bit rough which just happen to be on the toll road parts.
I'm not saying that all the roads are bad and remember when travelling down south or over to the west having to go through all the bottle neck towns like Kinnegad Fermoy etc.

I did read your post and I read it again just now. Just to clarify my last post, when I meant the M7/M8, I certainly didn't mean the M7/M8 Toll Section - rather the M7 and M8 motorways in general from Dublin to Cork - I should have made that clearer. However, your post was in response to that of 'veryangryman' who made a general comment about the quality of the roads in Ireland and in that context, your response could very easily be interpreted in a general manner IMO. Obviously, you didn't quite mean that and I certainly would agree that the M7/M8 Toll section (was on it the day after it opened) was generally inferior to the adjoining sections of motorway. I don't think our motorways are overspeced, but I would generally agree with 'veryangryman' in that our roads compare well to many other Western countries - we're certainly up there with Spain (2009 my last visit). I would certainly agree with you on the subject of rest/service areas.

I hope I didn't cause too much offense...

Regards!