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Which large haulage companies dodge tolls?

  • 10-10-2011 6:04pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭


    I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

    South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

    I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    Tremelo wrote: »
    I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

    South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

    I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

    Most of them are using the old roads especially the N4 and N8. Luceys only use the PPP at peak times btw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,248 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    mfitzy wrote: »
    I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.

    Thats true but managment dont look at the bigger picture. The trucks are burning more Diesel idling in traffic in these towns plus eating up brakes/clutches in slow moving traffic. You are also wasting driving time (Tachograph hours) using the old roads. Your chances of having an accident are greatly increased using the older roads also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Also, isn't there a tax rebate on tolls that companies can avail of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,248 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    -Corkie- wrote: »
    Thats true but managment dont look at the bigger picture. The trucks are burning more Diesel idling in traffic in these towns plus eating up brakes/clutches in slow moving traffic. You are also wasting driving time (Tachograph hours) using the old roads. Your chances of having an accident are greatly increased using the older roads also.

    That's very true re road safety but I'm not so sure about the fuel issue. Just using my own example of Kilkenny-Dublin, a few years back pre M9 I generally always went via N78 Athy. It's about 70 miles or less on this old road. The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
    Granted the time savings and road safety and ease of driving far outweigh the (minor negatives), I bet you the haulage co.s consider these things and throw in a hefty toll the new motorways don't look so appealing. The old roads seem to take shorter mileage routes across the country and the towns along them are no longer such bottleknecks at all.

    I can't understand why the Toll companies don't do some kind of deals with the hauliers, like a per year pass with a decent discount. At the moment the tolls seem to penalise (or don't reward enough) those that use them most which should not be the case.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 461 ✭✭kerosene


    Thats a good point mfitzy. Not just the hauliers though, thousands of people are avoiding the tolls daily because of cost. If there was a weekly ticket like you can get on public transport, that could be used on all tolls more people would be likely to take it up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭dev100


    mfitzy wrote: »
    That's very true re road safety but I'm not so sure about the fuel issue. Just using my own example of Kilkenny-Dublin, a few years back pre M9 I generally always went via N78 Athy. It's about 70 miles or less on this old road. The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
    Granted the time savings and road safety and ease of driving far outweigh the (minor negatives), I bet you the haulage co.s consider these things and throw in a hefty toll the new motorways don't look so appealing. The old roads seem to take shorter mileage routes across the country and the towns along them are no longer such bottleknecks at all.

    I can't understand why the Toll companies don't do some kind of deals with the hauliers, like a per year pass with a decent discount. At the moment the tolls seem to penalise (or don't reward enough) those that use them most which should not be the case.


    Penny wise and Pound foolish. Its down to greed by the government and the toll road companies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    mfitzy wrote: »
    The M9 adds about 5 miles distance wise as it's not as direct plus you are going faster and burn more fuel (heavy right foot)!
    Granted the time savings

    The time savings will outweigh "heavy right foot syndrome" wrt fuel costs.

    I tend to drive about the posted speed limit of the road (1.4l petrol), before Kilbeggan to Athlone was opened up on the M6 I was getting approx 34mpg. Since the M6 was completed into Galway I'm getting about 38.5mpg. That works out at an average 45km (approx 4l) extra per tank or at current prices about €6. It's also at least 45 minutes quicker to get from home to dwelling (no major difference in the distances traveled either).

    There's also less ware & tear on the tyres, clutch & brakes, so the maintenance costs will naturally be lower. All of this will apply even more to haulage drivers.

    I suppose an easy way to force them onto the tolls would be to start issuing delivery licenses for towns on tolled routes like they've done in Dublin since the port tunnel opened (part of the 5 axle ban).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Do they actually save money by dodging the tolls? I would imagine the journey is longer and if stuck in traffic more fuel is consumed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    There should be a reduced VAT rate on diesel for haulage companies. A significant number have gone out of business as a result of increased costs such as fuel. If the government can give this reduction to the Agricultrual Industry then why not the Haulage industry too. It would also help control inflation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭hi5


    I thought they could claim the VAT back on diesel,but not the duty.
    AFAIK farmers dont pay duty either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    mfitzy wrote: »
    I understand it could be up to 10euro to use these toll roads each way for a HGV so I would hardly blame for not using them if time is not a major consideration.

    Here's an example of how the authorities have it sorted in France.
    The D810 is parallel to the tolled A63, between Dax and Bayonne.
    HGV's (>7.5t) are not allowed on the D810 unless making deliveries or collections on the route and the Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.

    The 7.5t limit is becoming increasing common for deter heavies from using N or D roads where Autoroutes are available as an alternative.

    See relevant signage below


  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭reiger


    alot of people talking rubbish here,they dont have a clue what it takes to run a fleet of trucks,with fuel bills going through the roof,and the like of Stobarts under cutting contracts to the bone.

    will ye give lads a break avoiding tolls is one way of trying to keep costs down.some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns,please your making comparasions with you and your 1.4 car and a haulage company,come on now dont let yourself down there.

    haulage companys have the pros and the cons weighed up of avoiding tolls.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Tremelo wrote: »
    I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

    South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

    I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

    Maybe you need to make yourself familiar with the economics of trucking companies, instead of guessing what might be happening ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭PaudyW


    Far play to them, i dont take any toll road if i can help it, no matter what im driving,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    ebbsy wrote: »
    Maybe you need to make yourself familiar with the economics of trucking companies, instead of guessing what might be happening ?

    What a peculiar post. Do you object to some part of my OP? If you're informed, please do enlighten us all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Tremelo wrote: »
    I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

    South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

    I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

    Either you are for it or against it. You seem to be covering all bases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    ebbsy wrote: »
    Either you are for it or against it. You seem to be covering all bases.

    1. Clearly my post is about acquiring more information than I already have.
    2. I'm sure that everyone, including lorry drivers, would prefer to use the motorways.
    3. Yes, I'm covering all bases. If you don't want to contribute to the thread in a more constructive way, you can take yourself elsewhere. Petulant posts coming from nowhere aren't acceptable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    reiger wrote: »
    ...............some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns...............

    If you are referring to '............Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.' in my earlier post, what is required of a driver of a >7.5t truck is documents indicating he/she has a deliver/collection to make on the restricted road, there is no 'licencing' procedure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    If you are referring to '............Gendarme carry out regular document checks to catch offenders.' in my earlier post, what is required of a driver of a >7.5t truck is documents indicating he/she has a deliver/collection to make on the restricted road, there is no 'licencing' procedure.

    No, was going on about my post where I suggested a port tunnel style licensing to force them onto the tolled roads.
    reiger wrote: »
    will ye give lads a break avoiding tolls is one way of trying to keep costs down.some one harping on about delivery licenses for towns,please your making comparasions with you and your 1.4 car and a haulage company,come on now dont let yourself down there.

    I didn't let myself down, I put forth an opinion based on some figures I'm familiar with. It would be you who has let yourself down with an opinion that is not backed up by any discernible evidence.

    The business practice of dodging tolls is one that many people don't understand. Then again a lot of businesses in Ireland think increasing productivity can be achieved by threatening people's jobs with while at the same time restricting their means to carry out those jobs - this is questionable to anybody with an ounce of sense in their body (but then many people want the banks to return to 2007 lending practices as if that was a normal situation not something which has been shown to be grossly unsustainable).

    I illustrated how the fuel efficiency & maintenance costs have improved for my puny 1.4l petrol engined car since the motorway network has opened. I am told that diesel engines are much less forgiving than petrol engines with maintenance and given that your average haulier will do several times the mileage of a private car in a year the I'd imagine that they'd need much more frequent and costly maintenance. Given all that I imagine that the same principals would apply to trucks.

    How about providing some facts for your opinion that toll dodging is saving the hauliers money. You can start with providing fuel efficiency figures for trucks for on motorway and off motorway driving.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    One of the beancounters in work figured out that all tolls bar the M4 are cost-beneficial in salary terms alone - due to the time savings - and that the M4 becomes cost-beneficial on salary+fuel alone. This isn't counting the significantly lower wear on braking/suspension and lower collision (with associated downtime and repair cost) risk.

    Fleet is all cars, so the time difference is more than a truck gets, though.

    Remember that the prices quoted are VAT inclusive, at that. Haulage firms won't be paying all of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 727 ✭✭✭sealgaire


    True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    sealgaire wrote: »
    True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway

    Fuel consumption difference on the vehicles we had when the pointy head worked it out was negligable between 100 and 120. It was bloody massive between 60 and 120.

    Difference for trucks is being able to cruise continously at the same speed as their max on the old roads was rather than stop/start through towns. Trucks should benefit more from fuel savings than a passenger vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭cargo


    Tremelo wrote: »
    I'm not very familiar with trucking companies, but I've noticed that Eddie Stobart and Lucey Transport use the PPP sections of our motorways and pay tolls.

    South Cost has a large fleet and they dodge the M7 toll at Portlaoise, exiting the M8 at Urlingford and driving through Durrow and Abbeyleix.

    I'm not condemning here (though personally I would much prefer if they used the motorway), but how widespread is toll dodging among hauliers in this country?

    South Coast draw tankers into Glanbia in Ballyragget so would be coming off at Urlingford to turh right in Durrow for Glanbia. (yes they could come further North before getting off the Mway but it would nearly be worse as they'd be coming cross country froom Ballacolla)

    Not sure if they do it for through loads to Dublin but I've often sen them heading for Glanbia on this route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,518 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    sealgaire wrote: »
    True, not necessarliy true that using motorway saves fuel. You just end up driving faster on the motorway

    Aren't Heavy Good Vehicles limited to 80kph ?

    And to whoever asked, VAT registered Haulage companies can claim back the VAT on diesel. They can't claim back the duty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    Aren't Heavy Good Vehicles limited to 80kph ?

    Nope about 90kph in most cases. Most of the N.I trucks are limited to well lets say as hard as she will go..:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭fl&sh


    -Corkie- wrote: »
    Nope about 90kph in most cases

    the national maximum speed limit for HGVs IS 80kph.

    As a driver myself,its left up to me wether i use the tolled roads or not.the company i work for has no problem repaying me the cost but i refuse to use them.the NRA have not placed the toll prices to incentify companys to use them IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,396 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    Most large transport companies use the new tolls as they do reduce fuel consumption and employee costs ot etc,As for them been called motorways is a joke more like glorified dual carriageways the NRA are either f**king morans or inept in their job,Between Limerick and Dublin there is one layby that HGV/cars can pull in to even then there is no run in space for a hgv to get up to speed to rejoin the road.:mad:
    As for the tolls them selves a truck going from Dublin to Cork and back could end up going through six tolls for that journey which adds up over a year if the trip is done on a daily basis,Also to tax a hgv you could be looking at anything over €2000 up to €3000 a year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭Bagenal


    cargo wrote: »
    South Coast draw tankers into Glanbia in Ballyragget so would be coming off at Urlingford to turh right in Durrow for Glanbia. (yes they could come further North before getting off the Mway but it would nearly be worse as they'd be coming cross country froom Ballacolla)

    Not sure if they do it for through loads to Dublin but I've often sen them heading for Glanbia on this route.
    The bit about going to Glanbia, Ballyragget is spot on. :D

    The one gripe I have about the motorways in Ireland regarding trucks is the "no overtaking rule". The basics of this is that any vehicle whose speed limit is 80km/h must not use the outside lane of a motorway. I reckon some civil servant looked at the motorway rules in the UK, seen this bit & decided to put it in the rules here completely ignoring the fact that it only applies to three lane motorways in the UK. AFAIK there are no three lane motorways in Ireland, I've only come accross two lane ones. I wrote to a certain minister of transport regarding this a couple of years ago & got a moronic answer in reply. :rolleyes:

    As for the toll issue, take a truck going from Cork to Belfast & back via the M50, perhaps add up the toll costs on that & see what it comes to.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Most of the M50, sections of M1, M2, planned for more M1 in the short term. M4, M7 in the long term.

    UK has plenty of two lane motorway too.


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