Owner of the apartment I'm living in has gone bankrupt.

Lame Lantern

Hey guys, was wondering if anybody could give me some advice as regards a very weird situation.

I've been living in a small apartment in north central Dublin for about 5 years now, student digs sort of standard. The property is owned by a friend of my grandad from the UK and I've been renting from him with no formal agreement since late 2005ish.

Anyway, he recently moved to the US and declared himself bankrupt. There's a mortgage on my apartment held by Anglo and obviously they're going to take the place back at some stage.

My question is, should I be worried about bailiffs turning up at my door unannounced and turfing me out? As I mentioned, I have no formal lease of any kind and have been paying cash so I don't know what my rights are. If Anglo is still required to give me notice to vacate then that's fine but if the rug can be pulled out from under me at any moment then I'll need to prepare some sort of contingency plan.

Thanks for any help!

Snakeblood

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Hey guys, was wondering if anybody could give me some advice as regards a very weird situation.

I've been living in a small apartment in north central Dublin for about 5 years now, student digs sort of standard. The property is owned by a friend of my grandad from the UK and I've been renting from him with no formal agreement since late 2005ish.

Anyway, he recently moved to the US and declared himself bankrupt. There's a mortgage on my apartment held by Anglo and obviously they're going to take the place back at some stage.

My question is, should I be worried about bailiffs turning up at my door unannounced and turfing me out? As I mentioned, I have no formal lease of any kind and have been paying cash so I don't know what my rights are. If Anglo is still required to give me notice to vacate then that's fine but if the rug can be pulled out from under me at any moment then I'll need to prepare some sort of contingency plan.

Thanks for any help!

I think that you're liable for tax the landlord should pay, as a tenant of someone who lives abroad. The onus is on you to take out the necessary tax for the govt. I'd be a bit concerned about that.

Lame Lantern

Snakeblood wrote: »

I think that you're liable for tax the landlord should pay, as a tenant of someone who lives abroad. The onus is on you to take out the necessary tax for the govt. I'd be a bit concerned about that.

Well that's disconcerting! He's spent most of the last few years resident in Ireland before the move back to the UK and then on to the US so if anybody decides to pursue me on that the liabilities shouldn't be great and I'll have a corner to fight, so for the sake of my sanity I won't concern myself with it for the moment. More interested to know if I'm going to be homeless without notice one of these days.

Zamboni

You know the writing is on the wall so head for the hills.
Looks like it could get messy so extract yourself from the situation as quickly as you can.

Snakeblood

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Well that's disconcerting! He's spent most of the last few years resident in Ireland before the move back to the UK and then on to the US so if anybody decides to pursue me on that the liabilities shouldn't be great and I'll have a corner to fight, so for the sake of my sanity I won't concern myself with it for the moment. More interested to know if I'm going to be homeless without notice one of these days.

I think you'd be better off moving out now, to be honest. You don't know when the sword is going to fall so you might be happier taking control of the situation and picking a place to move to, rather than being forced to unexpectedly. Best of luck with it anyway.

Lame Lantern

I don't want to bail unless I absolutely have to

I have no family in Ireland, no money and I'm enrolled in a research program at uni. Finding new accomodation in Dublin before the new year when I'm due another tranche of cash heading my way will be basically impossible. "Moving out" will mean stashing all my stuff in somebody's garage and getting a flight back to London until 2012 and asking the college if I can take this semester off.

I'm paid up until the end of the year, renewing my informal agreement for the next 6 months back in June when everything was hunky dory. It would mean walking away from a significant amount of money without the prospect of getting it back. I know going to ground is the prudent move, but if I can make the credible, legally sound claim that like any other long term tenants I can't be evicted without 3 months of notice no matter who's the boss I'd rather take my chances given that the alternative is the loss of this semester at college and possibly the whole year.

Oddjob

Why would you move out? You have no liability for your landlords tax situation.

Lame Lantern

Lame Lantern wrote: »

..........
I'm paid up until the end of the year, renewing my informal agreement for the next 6 months back in June when everything was hunky dory. .............

You paid your rent 6 months in advance? Are you serious?
Anyway, if it was informal and the tenancy is not registered to the PRTB etc it might be hard for anyone to prove you were actually renting.

3 months to year end, these things take time, if you can't afford to move just sit tight but try and move as soon as possible.

Are the utility bills in your name ?

Lame Lantern

I paid €900 in June for 6 months rent. Such was the value-for-security nature of the deal. I've benefitted from the arrangement for 5 years now so I've no regrets paying up front.

Utility bills are in my name.

Lame Lantern

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I paid €900 in June for 6 months rent. Such was the value-for-security nature of the deal. I've benefitted from the arrangement for 5 years now so I've no regrets paying up front.

Utility bills are in my name.

Sounds a bargain.
I'd be getting the ball rolling on getting the bills out of your name in December, might be difficult really as you'll need to put them in someone (the owners) elses name.

I don't think you'll be evicted between now and then though, are there other tenants too in the building or is it just a €150/month apartment the landlord had there.

Lame Lantern

There are other tenants in the building but every apartment is owned by a different investor, or near enough.

Basically, if I can keep the barbarians beyond the walls until Christmas I'm golden. If some creditor harassment company has the right to come in and kick down the door then I might have to consider fleeing the country. Thankfully the bank is Anglo which is fairly declawed and disinterested these days compared to your KBCs and such.

ted1

Oddjob wrote: »

Why would you move out? You have no liability for your landlords tax situation.

yes he does, the onus i son him to withold the VAT content and pay directly to the revenue

taking from: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/credits/rent-credit.html

Non - Resident Landlords
Where rent is paid to a landlord who is not resident in the State, certain obligations may arise for the tenant. If the landlord has an agent in the State to whom the rent is paid then no obligations arise. If however rent is paid directly to the landlord (this includes payment directly into a bank account held by the landlord) then the following actions must be taken. The tenant must deduct 20% of the rent due from the amount paid over to the landlord. This 20% must then be remitted to Revenue. The local Revenue Office should be contacted to make the appropriate arrangements for the collection of this charge. The remaining 80% of the rent due should be paid over to the landlord. At the end of the year the tenant should furnish the landlord with a completed Form R185 - Certificate of Income Tax Deducted (PDF, 47KB) . This form gives details of the amount of the rent that was paid over to Revenue. The landlord can then claim this amount as a credit on their annual Tax Return.

Zamboni

Are Anglo even aware of your 'arrangement' with the landlord?

seamus

Lame Lantern wrote: »

If some creditor harassment company has the right to come in and kick down the door then I might have to consider fleeing the country.

They don't.

At the end of the day, it is still your home and you are entitled to full and exclusive use of the property, regardless of who currently owns it. Nobody is entitled to enter the property without your permission.

You've been living the property for more than five years, so no doubt you have some statutory legal rights in this situation. Nobody can turn up and turf you out.

Try contacting FLAC (www.flac.ie) to see what they say.

My gut says that you'll be well safe up till Christmas, but you need to find out what your rights are in terms of how much notice Anglo have to give you.

But just to re-iterate; Nobody can turn up at your door and throw you onto the street. This is your home, you have a right to be there and to be safe there. In property, occupancy is more important than ownership.

Lame Lantern

Zamboni wrote: »

Are Anglo even aware of your 'arrangement' with the landlord?

I'm told that in the letter the receiver is sending out to the creditors that I'm listed as a tenant residing in the property. I don't think there are any other details listed beyond that.

Lame Lantern

seamus wrote: »

They don't.

At the end of the day, it is still your home and you are entitled to full and exclusive use of the property, regardless of who currently owns it. Nobody is entitled to enter the property without your permission.

You've been living the property for more than five years, so no doubt you have some statutory legal rights in this situation. Nobody can turn up and turf you out.

Try contacting FLAC (www.flac.ie) to see what they say.

My gut says that you'll be well safe up till Christmas, but you need to find out what your rights are in terms of how much notice Anglo have to give you.

But just to re-iterate; Nobody can turn up at your door and throw you onto the street. This is your home, you have a right to be there and to be safe there. In property, occupancy is more important than ownership.

Excellent, just the reply I was looking for. Will get in touch with them right away.

ted1

FYI have paied rent in advance makes you a creditor..

Kosseegan

If there is an action for possession of the apartment everybody living in the apartment will have to be served with a copy of the proceedings. Everybody who has been served has the right to go to the court hearings and tell their story. There is a part 4 tenancy here which the court will have to recognise.

Ray Palmer

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Well that's disconcerting! He's spent most of the last few years resident in Ireland before the move back to the UK and then on to the US so if anybody decides to pursue me on that the liabilities shouldn't be great and I'll have a corner to fight, so for the sake of my sanity I won't concern myself with it for the moment. More interested to know if I'm going to be homeless without notice one of these days.

You won't have any corner to fight you are simply liable for the tax the day he moved out of the country.

Pkiernan

Oddjob wrote: »

Why would you move out? You have no liability for your landlords tax situation.

The Revenue disagrees.

Ultimately the tenant is responsible to collect these taxes (by withholding them from the rent).

OP: look for another place.

James.

ted1 wrote: »

yes he does, the onus i son him to withold the VAT content and pay directly to the revenue

.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You won't have any corner to fight you are simply liable for the tax the day he moved out of the country.

Pkiernan wrote: »

The Revenue disagrees.

Ultimately the tenant is responsible to collect these taxes (by withholding them from the rent).

this is a ridiculous expectation from revenue.

how is a tenant supposed to know where a landlord is living ?

maybe a landlord is currently living in ireland but is planning on leaving tomorrow or next week, how is a tenant supposed to know this ?

ted1

Well paying into a non Irish account is a give away. Or by known the owner is a friend of a relative and lives in the UK is another give away.

Bigcheeze

ted1 wrote: »

Well paying into a non Irish account is a give away. Or by known the owner is a friend of a relative and lives in the UK is another give away.

He paid cash.

Also, just leaving the country doesn't make the landlord non-resident for tax purposes.

Stupid revenue are too incompetent to collect tax so expect private tenants to do the job for them, with no consideration for the fact that 99% of the public have no idea that this obligation exists and have no rights to access the tax residency status of their landlord.

Not in a million years would Revenue be successful in enforcing this against the OP. Any judge would chuck it out.

Baralis1

So the landlord is bankrupt and has now left the country and ownership of the apartment is unclear, possibly owned by the bank. The tax situation of the rent you are paying is unclear. You have been in the apartment for going on 7 years and you paid in cash to a family connection who has no longer any ownership of the apartment due to bankruptcy with no proof that you were a tenant.
Op, I really think you have a very strong position here.

There are a number of options for you. People may query the morals of them but you are in an awkward situation, none of your making and have nothing to lose.

Firstly I would pay no more rent. Your relative's friend no longer owns the apartment and you are unsure of the tax situation. Now if the bank who own it get in contact and set themselves up as landlord, you could give the full story and offer to pay rent from Dec and they may gladly accept.

I really don't think they can't get rid of you as a tenant without a lot of hassle on their part. They can't just turn up and throw you out or even do it at short notice. You have been there nearly seven years, it is your home and a reputable bank will not do something illegal.

If you really wanted, and this may not be that moral but would have a strong legal case in my opinion, you could claim that you are a squatter, have no rental agreement, have not paid rent and that this is your home, which it is. I bet that no court in the land would evict you without years of legal wrangling if ever. To be honest, the rent you were paying at 150 a month was a token only anyway and is a tiny fraction of normal rent.
Look at the guy in the news this week that was allowed stay in an abandoned NAMA house by a court after only four months squatting.

I really think you are very secure in this apartment and while legal stuff etc will go on, it would be a long slow process, years long if ever to evict you.

Or you could just stay as long as you need to and move on after.

Milk & Honey

It takes a minimum of 12 years to acquire squatters rights. the apartment may not even be 12 years old.
The guy in the paper who was squatting simply had a trespassing charge dismissed. He was not told he could stay in the house. He is still amenable to a civil process of ejectment. The loser in such a case will have to pay costs.

clint_silver

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I'm told that in the letter the receiver is sending out to the creditors that I'm listed as a tenant residing in the property. I don't think there are any other details listed beyond that.

I wouldnt worry. Baralis summed it up above, will take months if not years to sort out. You paid your rent, if your landlord didnt do anything with it after that, that's not your problem. Its your home. Theyll come to sort of agreement in time if they really want you out. it wont be anytime soon though.

Victor

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I'm told that in the letter the receiver is sending out to the creditors that I'm listed as a tenant residing in the property. I don't think there are any other details listed beyond that.

As you have pre-paid rent, you are a creditor. Why haven't you received a letter? You need to make the fact that you have pre-paid rent know to the receiver.

It may be useful for you to actually determine what bankruptcy status your landlord has. It may also be useful to keep the bank aware of you right to notice and the fact that you have pre-paid rent.

You may find Revenue chasing you for unpaid tax.

---

Baralis1 wrote: »

If you really wanted, and this may not be that moral but would have a strong legal case in my opinion, you could claim that you are a squatter, have no rental agreement, have not paid rent and that this is your home, which it is. I bet that no court in the land would evict you without years of legal wrangling if ever.

Offering dubious legal advice is not acceptable. Lying to the court is perjury and can be punished by 7 years in prison.

UDP

OP, who did you pay the rent to? was it the landlord directly?