The End of Dutch Tolerance?

JupiterKid

Ever since the birth of the Netherlands as an entity in itself several centuries ago, the country has long been noted for its openness and tolerance towards minorities, be they ethnic, religious, political etc.

Indeed, international trade is what made Holland wealthy and distinct from some of its European neighbours where fascism, racism, intolerance and cultural unifomity reigned supreme.

However, the era of Holland being known as a tolerant country may be coming to rather sudden end. Geert Wilders, leader of a far right anti-Islam political party, won a record vote in recent elections and his party supports a right wing minority government. In just the past 6 months, the new government has slashed funding for cultural integration programmnes, abolished agencies that had promoted multiculturalism, has banned the burqua and has slashed funding for the arts, renewable energy and environmental protection sectors.

In addition, Amsterdam's days as a "fun" tourism destination may well be numbered as the new Dutch government is pressing ahead to restrict coffee shops that sell cannabis to members only - who will be restricted to Dutch nationals and long-term residents. There is also talk of re-criminalising prostitution and a general "crackdown" on the sex industry in Amsterdam and elsewhere in Holland.

Is this something to be concerned about? Well, my sister who has lived in Holland for the past 12 years thinks so. According to her, the amount of anti-foreign but especially anti Islamic sentiment is growing and what would have been considered unthinkable a decade ago - to publicly voice xenophobic sentiment - is increasingly becoming the norm. In the small town she lives in outside Amsterdam, a small Turkish kebab snack bar has been vandalised a number of times in just the past couple of months. Prior to these attacks it had never encountered problems. There is also racist and xenophobic graffitti appearing as well.

So is the tolerant society really coming to an end in Holland? Are the fears of some people and groups premature and over-exaggerated? What are the wider implications for Europe? What are the implications for the future relationship between Islamic immigrant communties and their European host societies?

pacquiao

Surely he feels this is in favor of the dutch people?

MadsL

A Dutch friend of mine had a brazillian partner. In order to get citizenship under family unification he had to take a year's worth of Dutch lessons to integrate. He speaks 4 languages fluently and his Dutch was already pretty good. He asked to take a fluency test, but was told he had to take one year of lessons, no excuses. There was no test, and no exam at the end of the year.Completely pointless but an exercise in Dutch Liberal Facism as my friend calls it.

Point being that Holland is used to being quite authoritarian - that is a concern.

djpbarry

JupiterKid wrote: »

Well, my sister who has lived in Holland for the past 12 years thinks so. According to her, the amount of anti-foreign but especially anti Islamic sentiment is growing and what would have been considered unthinkable a decade ago - to publicly voice xenophobic sentiment - is increasingly becoming the norm.

I don’t think this is anything new – the tolerant nature of mainland Europe in general is grossly overstated (in my opinion). I’ve met more than a few Belgians, Dutch and Germans who openly spout irrational nonsense about the brown faces in their midst, in much the same way that the Irish do (not all, obviously) about black faces. That said, I can’t see a Geert Wilders-like character enjoying too much support in Ireland.

Alopex

I think you're exaggerating about intolerance toward foreigners there.

From their government immigration minister on friday:
Immigration enriches the Netherlands: minister

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/10/immigration_enriches_the_nethe.php

Also I spent some time there, most people hate Wilders and feel embarrassed about him. Its not like Irish people all support Michael Lowry or Jackie Healy Rae, or Gerry Adams

When it comes to tolerance of cannabis I unfortunately think you are correct though.

alex73

JupiterKid wrote: »

In addition, Amsterdam's days as a "fun" tourism destination may well be numbered as the new Dutch government is pressing ahead to restrict coffee shops that sell cannabis to members only - who will be restricted to Dutch nationals and long-term residents. There is also talk of re-criminalising prostitution and a general "crackdown" on the sex industry in Amsterdam and elsewhere in Holland.

The Change in the Netherlands is a DEMOCRATIC change. I have lots of cousins over there and they are fedup with the Sex-Drugs tourism trade. Over 80% of the prostitutes are foreign, and while prostitution is legal/registered and tax paying... many of the prostitutes are recruited abroad and sent to the neitherlands.

So its all fine to Legalise Pot.... Turn a blind eye to Cocaine.... turn the red light on in the shop.... and welcome everyone to live in you inclusive society... But what many dutch have seen in the last 20 years in the total destruction of Dutch society. Muslims arrive and don't integrate. Thousands of people travel to Neitherlands for NO OTHER REASON than to get stoned and have sex. So the wave is turning, people are fedup with the free for all and are returning to conservative dutch values.

djpbarry

alex73 wrote: »

...what many dutch have seen in the last 20 years in the total destruction of Dutch society.

Really? Total destruction? Civilisation as we know it is no more within the Dutch borders?

alex73

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? Total destruction? Civilisation as we know it is no more within the Dutch borders?

Ask the Dutch electorate... They are the ones who have elected the Politicians who are changing the tide in the Netherlands.

It goes to show the liberal policies have hard consequences.

woodoo

I think he makes some good points. When Muslims are ready to fully integrate into their host countries then we can welcome them in. But slowly.

alex73

woodoo wrote: »

I think he makes some good points. When Muslims are ready to fully integrate into their host countries then we can welcome them in. But slowly.

Its not just Muslims...

1. Prostitution, To liberate them from Pimps and Crime it was made legal. That and other reasons... Ok.. Well that would be fine if prostitutes were Dutch... But it quickly turned into a trafficking trade and today over 80% of them are non Dutch nationals. The Legal industry is run by criminals who traffic women to the Netherlands.

2. Cannabis, The Cafes have become a tourist stop (along with getting banged)


Many countries, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden have seen the Dutch experiment are are not willing to follow. Netherlands (particular Amsterdam) is seen as the de-facto red light city of europe. And a large number of Dutch while they wanted these freedoms, they did not want the abuse of them.

djpbarry

alex73 wrote: »

Ask the Dutch electorate...

I'm asking you. You made the point, you substantiate it.

woodoo wrote: »

When Muslims are ready to fully integrate into their host countries then we can welcome them in.

Or - a crazy idea, but hear me out - we treat people as individuals.

Nodin

alex73 wrote: »

Ask the Dutch electorate... They are the ones who have elected the Politicians who are changing the tide in the Netherlands.

It goes to show the liberal policies have hard consequences.

...haven't the right just lost the last election....?

woodoo

djpbarry wrote: »

Or - a crazy idea, but hear me out - we treat people as individuals.

Even if that means we end up with people choosing to live in societies within societies. I'm not particularly interested in that set up.

Sacksian

Or, maybe, we accept that all countries, and political systems, are more nuanced and complex than the stereotypes we generally use to describe them. It doesn't mean that everyone in the Netherlands is hopping off some bandwagon they've been on for the last 50 years.

It's the same with Scandinavia. Of course, they have right-wing politicians- it would be ridiculous to think otherwise - but, generally, they still have fairer tax redistribution policies, more equality, better public services, etc. And most people, even those on the right in these countries, would probably subscribe to greater levels of taxation than we have, more separation of church and state and more liberal social policies than have ever been presented to the Irish electorate by a party with a hope of being in government.

Social integration is incredibly complex and I can't think of many countries that have it wholly sussed. With regards to drug policy, do you think that the Dutch are going to criminalise drug use at any time in the near future?? Rather than simply regulating it further?

Sticky_Fingers

The end of Dutch tolerance, I'm open to correction on this from more informed posters but I've always thought that was a myth. In the big cities such as Amsterdam and Rotterdam tolerance existed but out in the countryside and smaller towns/villages much of the population are very conservative (bit of a generalisation I know).

irishh_bob

yesboyicecream wrote: »

Or, maybe, we accept that all countries, and political systems, are more nuanced and complex than the stereotypes we generally use to describe them. It doesn't mean that everyone in the Netherlands is hopping off some bandwagon they've been on for the last 50 years.

It's the same with Scandinavia. Of course, they have right-wing politicians- it would be ridiculous to think otherwise - but, generally, they still have fairer tax redistribution policies, more equality, better public services, etc. And most people, even those on the right in these countries, would probably subscribe to greater levels of taxation than we have, more separation of church and state and more liberal social policies than have ever been presented to the Irish electorate by a party with a hope of being in government.

Social integration is incredibly complex and I can't think of many countries that have it wholly sussed. With regards to drug policy, do you think that the Dutch are going to criminalise drug use at any time in the near future?? Rather than simply regulating it further?

scandanavians are big into equality but they also insist on all sections of the workforce paying tax , in ireland , those on low incomes pay much less tax than in the likes of sweeden

Sacksian

irishh_bob wrote: »

scandanavians are big into equality but they also insist on all sections of the workforce paying tax , in ireland , those on low incomes pay much less tax than in the likes of sweeden

Absolutely, the Scandinavians buy into the welfare model but they also buy into the idea that everyone should contribute. That seems like a good idea to me and one which is more likely to promote equality.

The point is that, with the Dutch, there's a broader culture that they subscribe to - same as the Scandinavians - that you're missing when you start pointing at changes in policies towards the Red Light District in Amsterdam (which is a local government issue) and suggesting that they regret the last 40 years. It's still a good deal more liberal, on a number of social policy strands, than almost every other country.

I'd say the Dutch are more renowned for their pragmatism than tolerance i.e. recognize and accept that a problem or issue exists and see what is the least harmful response to it.

Manach

Offhand, the end of Dutch tolerance came with the murder of Pim Fortuyn.

imme

The Netherlands wasn't that enlightened when dealing with her former colonies in the East & West Indies. She didn't show much tolerance in respect to them.

The idea of sexual tolerance in the Netherlands is a relatively recent (20th century) one, religious tolerance is an older 19th century concept.

I think by and large the Dutch are a liberal people. There is also a strict protestant section of the population, the kind who read the bible daily and keep away from modern media.

The Netherlands will develop the way it develops, I don't see it having implications for the rest of Europe, maybe there won't be somewhere for Irish drug lords to go and hide away.

Empirically, Dutch people I speak to are worried about the rise of the right, likewise the Swedes for their country. They can't understand how these parties are gaining support.


Multiculturalism has been binned in the UK as well.

MadsL

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, the end of Dutch tolerance came with the murder of Pim Fortuyn.

"I am also in favour of a cold war with Islam. I see Islam as an extraordinary threat, as a hostile religion."

When asked by the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant whether he hated Islam, he replied:

“ I don't hate Islam. I consider it a backward culture. I have travelled much in the world. And wherever Islam rules, it's just terrible. All the hypocrisy. It's a bit like those old reformed protestants. The Reformed lie all the time. And why is that? Because they have standards and values that are so high that you can't humanly maintain them. You also see that in that Muslim culture. Then look at the Netherlands. In what country could an electoral leader of such a large movement as mine be openly homosexual? How wonderful that that's possible. That's something that one can be proud of. And I'd like to keep it that way, thank you very much.[19] ”

Fortuyn used the word achterlijk, literally meaning "backward", but commonly used as an insult in the sense of "retarded". After his use of "achterlijk" caused an uproar, Fortuyn said he had used the word with its literal meaning of "backward".

---

In fairness, the man was an idiot.

crucamim

Most of the White South Africans were of Dutch orgin and it was they who were the base of Apartheid. The Dutch settlers in the East Indies (now Indonesia) were even more racist.

In Holland amateur soccer is segregated into Catholic leagues and Calvinist leagues - with the Catholics playing on Sundays, the Calvinists (Presbyterians) playing on Saturday. Since 1918 there have been 3 separate school systems all 100% taxpayer funded. One system consists of secular schools owned and controlled by the State, Catholic schools owned and controlled by the RC Church and Calvinist schools, owned and controlled by the Presbyterian church.

In 1940 all the officers of the Dutch army based in Europe took an oath of allegience to Adolf Hitler. About 25K Dutch nationals, nearly all of them Calvinists, voluntarily enlisted in the Waffen SS. Under Nazi government the Jews of Holland suffered far more than in any other western European country - because Dutch Calvinists assisted the Nazis to round up Jews.

Holland's much vaunted tolerance is not long standing and is often little more than skin deep.

In Holland there is a law requiring its Head of State to be a Calvinist - despite about 40% of the population being from a Catholic background.

djpbarry

woodoo wrote: »

Even if that means we end up with people choosing to live in societies within societies.

That seems far less likely to happen if we stop generalising about certain groups and, I repeat, treat people as individuals. Integration is a two-way street.

Jelle1880

MadsL wrote: »

"I am also in favour of a cold war with Islam. I see Islam as an extraordinary threat, as a hostile religion."

When asked by the Dutch newspaper Volkskrant whether he hated Islam, he replied:

“ I don't hate Islam. I consider it a backward culture. I have travelled much in the world. And wherever Islam rules, it's just terrible. All the hypocrisy. It's a bit like those old reformed protestants. The Reformed lie all the time. And why is that? Because they have standards and values that are so high that you can't humanly maintain them. You also see that in that Muslim culture. Then look at the Netherlands. In what country could an electoral leader of such a large movement as mine be openly homosexual? How wonderful that that's possible. That's something that one can be proud of. And I'd like to keep it that way, thank you very much.[19] ”

Fortuyn used the word achterlijk, literally meaning "backward", but commonly used as an insult in the sense of "retarded". After his use of "achterlijk" caused an uproar, Fortuyn said he had used the word with its literal meaning of "backward".

---

In fairness, the man was an idiot.

Not even close.
His ideas were radical, but he was a highly intelligent and charismatic man.

What should be more worrying is that he did speak for a large part of Dutch citizens, which reflected in his political popularity.

Wilders, now there's an idiot.
To be fair, it's not surprising to me (I'm from Belgium and know several Dutch people), the Netherlands have been overrun with immigrants.
Most of them speak Dutch and work (people from former colonies, for example Suriname) but lately, as in other parts of Europe, they have seen an influx of people unwilling to work and just profit from the system.

crucamim wrote: »

1. Most of the White South Africans were of Dutch orgin and it was they who were the base of Apartheid. The Dutch settlers in the East Indies (now Indonesia) were even more racist.


2. In Holland amateur soccer is segregated into Catholic leagues and Calvinist leagues - with the Catholics playing on Sundays, the Calvinists (Presbyterians) playing on Saturday. Since 1918 there have been 3 separate school systems all 100% taxpayer funded. One system consists of secular schools owned and controlled by the State, Catholic schools owned and controlled by the RC Church and Calvinist schools, owned and controlled by the Presbyterian church.



3. In 1940 all the officers of the Dutch army based in Europe took an oath of allegience to Adolf Hitler. About 25K Dutch nationals, nearly all of them Calvinists, voluntarily enlisted in the Waffen SS. Under Nazi government the Jews of Holland suffered far more than in any other western European country - because Dutch Calvinists assisted the Nazis to round up Jews.


Holland's much vaunted tolerance is not long standing and is often little more than skin deep.


4. In Holland there is a law requiring its Head of State to be a Calvinist - despite about 40% of the population being from a Catholic background.

1. This doesn't mean that Dutch people in general are racist/intolerant.

2. This pillarisation was ended in the 1960's. The reason the system exists now is because clubs just decided to maintain it, the religious part doesn't come into it anymore.

3. Blatant lie, The Netherlands had a very active resistance, the Nazi-regime was only supported by a minority of the population.
As for Dutch people fighting for the Waffen SS, this happened all over Europe.

4. And ? The Netherlands have been ruled by the same Royal house since it's inception, it's hardly as if this would have any bearing on political candidates being overlooked due to their religion.

Batsy

JupiterKid wrote: »

Geert Wilders, leader of a far right anti-Islam political party, won a record vote in recent elections and his party supports a right wing minority government. In just the past 6 months, the new government has slashed funding for cultural integration programmnes, abolished agencies that had promoted multiculturalism, has banned the burqua and has slashed funding for the arts, renewable energy and environmental protection sectors.

It's refreshing to see another European country take such an attitude. Europeans are starting to fight back against the evils of multiculturalism and the Islamification of their proud Christian lands. The fact that Geert Wilders' party got so many votes is not only unsuprising but it also tells you what the Dutch people feel about the years of the Left opening their country's borders to every Tom, Dick and Abdul, including those who profess who hate Holland, Christianity and everything that both stand for.

It's good to see the Dutch people taking a stand and hopefully, one day soon, Britain will follow suit.

Batsy

MadsL wrote: »

A Dutch friend of mine had a brazillian partner. In order to get citizenship under family unification he had to take a year's worth of Dutch lessons to integrate. He speaks 4 languages fluently and his Dutch was already pretty good. He asked to take a fluency test, but was told he had to take one year of lessons, no excuses. There was no test, and no exam at the end of the year.Completely pointless but an exercise in Dutch Liberal Facism as my friend calls it.

Point being that Holland is used to being quite authoritarian - that is a concern.

You mean, somebody had to learn Dutch in order to live in....... Holland?

How evil! Yeah, they are definiely racists those Dutch.

The British government is bringing out similar laws. Soon, anybody wanting to live in Britain will have to be able to speak English. Imagine that? Gone will be the days when GPs and nurses can't even speak the language. Although I'm suprised that law wasn't introduced sooner.

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

To be fair, it's not surprising to me (I'm from Belgium and know several Dutch people), the Netherlands have been overrun with immigrants.

“Overrun” implies the natives are being outnumbered by immigrants, which is hardly the case.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Most of them speak Dutch and work (people from former colonies, for example Suriname) but lately, as in other parts of Europe, they have seen an influx of people unwilling to work and just profit from the system.

Have they? Or is this just perceived to be the case?

Batsy wrote: »

Europeans are starting to fight back against the evils of multiculturalism and the Islamification of their proud Christian lands.

Europeans are in the what now?

Batsy wrote: »

Gone will be the days when GPs and nurses can't even speak the language.

How many GPs and nurses in the NHS cannot speak English? Because I’ve yet to meet one.

Cork boy 55

JupiterKid wrote: »

Ever since the birth of the Netherlands as an entity in itself several centuries ago, the country has long been noted for its openness and tolerance towards minorities, be they ethnic, religious, political etc.

---

So is the tolerant society really coming to an end in Holland? Are the fears of some people and groups premature and over-exaggerated? What are the wider implications for Europe? What are the implications for the future relationship between Islamic immigrant communties and their European host societies?

Re:Islamic immigration

Scale matters

Netherlands Muslim Population
Estimated 1990 344,000 2.3%
Estimated 2010 914,000 5.5%
Projected 2030 1,365,000 7.8%

http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population/

BluntGuy

Batsy wrote: »

It's refreshing to see another European country take such an attitude. Europeans are starting to fight back against the evils of multiculturalism and the Islamification of their proud Christian lands.

Slightly hyperbolic, no?

woodoo wrote: »

I think he makes some good points. When Muslims are ready to fully integrate into their host countries then we can welcome them in. But slowly.

What does "fully integrate" mean?

Nodin

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Re:Islamic immigration

Scale matters

Netherlands Muslim Population
Estimated 1990 344,000 2.3%
Estimated 2010 914,000 5.5%
Projected 2030 1,365,000 7.8%

http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population/

A whole 7.8%? Amazing. Of course they'll be a solid block, of one sect of Islam and all totally observant, if not fundamentalist?

(off topic, however - I'm forced to point out that your many of your observations and predilictions politically, in so much as I can make them out, would be anathema to your preferred Presidential candidate and his party.)

woodoo

BluntGuy wrote: »

What does "fully integrate" mean?

How the Irish have integrated into American society and UK society.

BluntGuy

woodoo wrote: »

How the Irish have integrated into American society and UK society.

Not a very good answer. Some specifics please.

djpbarry

woodoo wrote: »

How the Irish have integrated into American society and UK society.

How have the Irish integrated into UK society and what sets them apart from other immigrant groups?

woodoo

BluntGuy wrote: »

Not a very good answer. Some specifics please.

Who would the English consider integrated better into UK society Irish Immigrants or Pakistani Muslim immigrants?

I think you get my point but you are looking for me to give you specific examples so you can attempt to pick them apart. I say tower hamlets you say not everywhere is like tower hamlets etc etc. In the round the Irish have assimilated better than some other foreigners into that society.

Have you ever lived in a major UK city? I have.

djpbarry

woodoo wrote: »

Who would the English consider integrated better into UK society Irish Immigrants or Pakistani Muslim immigrants?

Oh, I don't know, the white, English-speaking, "Christian" group maybe?

woodoo wrote: »

I say tower hamlets you say...

...Kilburn.

BluntGuy

woodoo wrote: »

Who would the English consider integrated better into UK society Irish Immigrants or Pakistani Muslim immigrants?

I think you get my point but you are looking for me to give you specific examples so you can attempt to pick them apart.

No, I don't get your point, sorry. You haven't really explained what you mean by "integrate". In what way are Irish immigrants "integrating" better than other immigrants. And more importantly is the "integration" you're talking about actually necessary for "social cohesion".

Have you ever lived in a major UK city? I have.

I used to live in London.

Jelle1880

djpbarry wrote: »

“Overrun” implies the natives are being outnumbered by immigrants, which is hardly the case.

Maybe overrun is a wrong word, 'seen a large influx' would have been better.

Have they? Or is this just perceived to be the case?

They have.
But it's not just Holland though, most countries with a decent to good social security system is seeing it.

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

They have.
But it's not just Holland though, most countries with a decent to good social security system is seeing it.

So the Netherlands has seen a large influx of people who have no intention of working and intend on living exclusively off the state? So I can hop on a plane to Amsterdam right now and register for as many benefits as I like?

Jelle1880

djpbarry wrote: »

So the Netherlands has seen a large influx of people who have no intention of working and intend on living exclusively off the state? So I can hop on a plane to Amsterdam right now and register for as many benefits as I like?

You can try.

Nodin

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You can try.

So it can't be done...? What is it you're getting at?

Jelle1880

Nodin wrote: »

So it can't be done...? What is it you're getting at?

I said he could try, if that's what he wanted.
It's not a secret that certain parts of society would rather stay at home and abuse benefits than get a job, and countries like Belgium, Holland,... are very much affected by this.
Luckily over the last few years methods have been created to combat this (Like withdrawing unemployment benefits to people who consistently refuse job-offers).

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You can try.

So it's not all that easy then? Cos that's what I thought.

Which brings me back to my point about perception.

SupaNova

woodoo wrote: »

How the Irish have integrated into American society and UK society.

Better than they integrate on a holiday in Majorca.

Being serious I would guess the Irish have integrated better into the US and UK than other groups, due to sharing a 1st language, and having similar cultures.

djpbarry

SupaNova wrote: »

Being serious I would guess the Irish have integrated better into the US and UK than other groups, due to sharing a 1st language, and having similar cultures.

But again it comes down to what is meant by "integrate" and who gets to decide who has integrated and who has not.

woodoo

djpbarry wrote: »

But again it comes down to what is meant by "integrate" and who gets to decide who has integrated and who has not.

Befriend, Marry, Socialise with, Employ, Converse well in the host language etc the people of the host country and see them as equals.

Not integrating imo, failure to learn the host language, using their own language over the host language. Considering the native people as not suitable for marriage or friendship due to their culture or religion.

Alopex

SupaNova wrote: »

Better than they integrate on a holiday in Majorca.

Being serious I would guess the Irish have integrated better into the US and UK than other groups, due to sharing a 1st language, and having similar cultures.

Thing is they integrate well in every european city. not just english speaking ones. Places like Belgian and German cities have GAA clubs and you never hear of locals complaining about the Irish causing trouble.

Wherever you find Muslims you find the locals having problems

djpbarry

woodoo wrote: »

Befriend, Marry, Socialise with, Employ, Converse well in the host language etc the people of the host country and see them as equals.

Quite a lot of Irish people in London would not meet those criteria – I’ve encountered more than a few who socialise exclusively with other Irish people.

woodoo wrote: »

...using their own language over the host language.

That’s ridiculous. Immigrants must speak English at all times?

woodoo wrote: »

Considering the native people as not suitable for marriage...

Who people choose to marry is no business but their own.

Alopex wrote: »

Thing is they integrate well in every european city. not just english speaking ones. Places like Belgian and German cities have GAA clubs....

So when Irish people establish a GAA club, they’re integrating. But if a Pakistani guy establishes, say, an Islamic literary society, he's not integrating?

How the hell does that makes sense?

SupaNova

djpbarry wrote: »

But again it comes down to what is meant by "integrate" and who gets to decide who has integrated and who has not.

Failure to integrate seems to mean not giving up ones religion, culture, language and associations with people of the same country of origin.

Another poster seemed worried by a growing Muslim population. Why? A growing Islam population does not equal a declining population of other religions and cultures. Is the fear that there will ultimately be more Muslims than other people on the planet and at some point in the future we will be living under Islamic law?

woodoo

djpbarry wrote: »

Quite a lot of Irish people in London would not meet those criteria – I’ve encountered more than a few who socialise exclusively with other Irish people.
That’s ridiculous. Immigrants must speak English at all times?
Who people choose to marry is no business but their own.
So when Irish people establish a GAA club, they’re integrating. But if a Pakistani guy establishes, say, an Islamic literary society, he's not integrating?

How the hell does that makes sense?

Thats where we differ. I would prefer immigrants to integrate as i mentioned above. If they can't integrate i'd prefer if they stayed away.

djpbarry

woodoo wrote: »

Thats where we differ. I would prefer immigrants to integrate as i mentioned above. If they can't integrate i'd prefer if they stayed away.

Fine. But if such rules on “integration” were mandatory, nobody would ever migrate anywhere. Which I guess is what you want, but I think you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of people don't want that.

Jelle1880

SupaNova wrote: »

Failure to integrate seems to mean not giving up ones religion, culture, language and associations with people of the same country of origin.

Another poster seemed worried by a growing Muslim population. Why? A growing Islam population does not equal a declining population of other religions and cultures. Is the fear that there will ultimately be more Muslims than other people on the planet and at some point in the future we will be living under Islamic law?

Not exactly that, but I do believe there is some sort of fear that Muslims will soon outnumber the original inhabitants of certain countries.

Already there are places (And again I use Belgium as an example) where schools in big cities have classes that consist of 95% Muslims.
Now, this is not a big deal in itself, but there is definitely a problem when these groups try to impose their will upon others.
For example schools using only Halal meat for lunch, schools where Christmas stuff is seen as 'provocative' or 'insulting to other religions',...

djpbarry: I don't think there's anyone asking people who migrate to other countries to completely give up their beliefs (That's not integration but assimilation), language, traditions,... but merely to adhere to local laws, customs and as a bare minimum learn the language.
Sadly there are those who see even that as too much and would rather that others adapt to them.

djpbarry

Jelle1880 wrote: »

djpbarry: I don't think there's anyone asking people who migrate to other countries to completely give up their beliefs (That's not integration but assimilation), language, traditions,... but merely to adhere to local laws, customs and as a bare minimum learn the language.

Sure – no reasonable person is going to take issue with that. But the definition of integration set out above by another poster goes way above and beyond this. In fact, by that ridiculously stringent definition, I’m not sure there are too many migrants anywhere in the world who have “integrated”.