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Heaslip to be dropped?

  • 08-10-2011 7:18am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    We failed to take our chances today and were found out by a lack of a 7.

    Jamie Heaslip is a shadow of his former self and was utterly anonymous today, now that it's clear that SOB would probably be more suited to 8 will Kidney drop Heaslip in favour for a more natural 7 with a view to keeping SOB in the team?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭Samich


    and who would go 7?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 302 ✭✭Principal Skinner


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    We failed to take our chances today and were found out by a lack of a 7.

    Jamie Heaslip is a shadow of his former self and was utterly anonymous today, now that it's clear that SOB would probably be more suited to 8 will Kidney drop Heaslip?

    The entire backrow was anonymous today, it's unfair to single out heaslip. The welsh shut them down


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    No.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭spiralism


    sure what does it matter, february is a long long way away. besides, the welsh backrow was unreal today anyways, i dunno how fair it is to judge him when our whole vaunted backrow got cleaned out


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Samich wrote: »
    and who would go 7?

    That's the question. I can't see Heaslip and SOB in the same back row against a world class 7 like Warburton again


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭LFC5Times


    The entire backrow was anonymous today, it's unfair to single out heaslip. The welsh shut them down

    In fairness O'Brien & Ferris tried and put in some hits and it's not really their fault that the Welsh nullified them.

    Heaslip without being over dramatic hardly tried to the same extent the other two do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭hardCopy


    Johnny O'Connor?
    Shane Jennings?

    I don't think so. Yes we need an openside but you can't just make them, we need to make do with what we have. The pack we have need to develop a more competitive breakdown.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭NoelJ


    We don't have a world class 7. Its like saying should be drop Sean O Brien if we have a world class 6,7,8. If you don't have it you cant use it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭yimrsg


    Wonderful reactionary thread with little input from the OP. Maybe we should be looking at why our entire backrow was poor, why ROG/Healy/etc looked out of sorts?

    Now is not the time for heads to roll (Ireland's next match is how far away?), now it's time to be grateful for all of the lads involved for what they have done. Thanks for the memories and let's hope for many more in the short term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    We lost out at scrumtime and we lost at least 2 lineouts. Hard for any of our pack to look good with Wales being so full of stamina and accurate low tackling.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    If we're going to get silly threads like this I'd prefer if this forum was locked down for 24 hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Kayless


    spiralism wrote: »
    sure what does it matter, february is a long long way away

    yes then we can go and beat Wales when its not that important, that’s the thing with this team they always seem to win when there’s nothing on the line but when it comes to big matches like today they flop, time to get younger guys in or we’ll end up get hammered by Italy next


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    NoelJ wrote: »
    We don't have a world class 7. Its like saying should be drop Sean O Brien if we have a world class 6,7,8. If you don't have it you cant use it.

    It's counter productive if we don't try and blood a young seven while we have the chance then, I never said we had a ready made replacement but it's clear that SOB isn't one and his ball carrying would be more effective at 8


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭chupacabra


    Wouldnt mind taking a punt on Dominic Ryan next Six Nations


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    The tactic of commiting as few men to the breakdown as possible and with the team seemingly under instruction not to offload in the tackle it limits a player of Heaslips ability - watch Heaslip for Leinster and then tell me he is not up to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭LFC5Times


    chupacabra wrote: »
    Wouldnt mind taking a punt on Dominic Ryan next Six Nations

    Worth a punt alright, could be the most likely young openside we have.

    Still can't help but feel if David Pollock didn't suffer with some bad injuries he could of been a proper openside for us. Alas we will never know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Demonic Ryan could be an option if he starts becoming first choice for Leinster


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Teferi wrote: »
    If we're going to get silly threads like this I'd prefer if this forum was locked down for 24 hours.


    I think your looking for the thread where we weren't beaten by Wales because of the lack of a 7.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    I think your looking for the thread where we weren't beaten by Wales because of the lack of a 7.

    And I think you are looking to troll.

    Ireland lost because of not playing well from 1 - 15 today.

    I haven't heard calls for a real 7 while we were on top.

    A reactionary thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Agreed! Dominic Ryan should be given a go at 7 instead of flooding the squad with 6s and 8s. Having said that no one was complaining about O'Brien when we were on the front foot. Having said that SOB is an 8. Warburton was ok today but I fail to see how he's the special talent everyone's mouthing on about. He's good but he's not world class. See what's he's like against the All Blacks or Australia against better 7s in my eyes.

    Where's the Heaslip who side stepped and smashed his way over against the French in 09? Or ripped Clermont the shreds on this own in 2010? Don't know what happened to him to be honest.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭LFC5Times


    Conas wrote: »
    Agreed! Dominic Ryan should be given a go at 7 instead of flooding the squad with 6s and 8s. Having said that no one was complaining about O'Brien when we were on the front foot. Having said that SOB is an 8. Warburton was ok today but I fail to see how he's the special talent everyone's mouthing on about. He's good but he's not world class. See what's he's like against the All Blacks or Australia against better 7s in my eyes.

    Where's the Heaslip who side stepped and smashed his way over against the French in 09? Or ripped Clermont the shreds on this own in 2010? Don't know what happened to him to be honest.

    He was on Twitter ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Teferi wrote: »
    And I think you are looking to troll.

    Ireland lost because of not playing well from 1 - 15 today.

    I haven't heard calls for a real 7 while we were on top.

    A reactionary thread.

    Everyone with half a knowledge of the game knew SOB wasn't a natural 7.

    We need an alternative and I was suggesting Heaslip's position could be under threat given that SOB has become a more important player.

    Maybe take off the rose tinted glasses before branding me a troll.

    I'm still immensely proud of the lads for topping the group and I think if we had taken our chances today we could have won but nonetheless we have a lack of threat on the ground


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Kayless


    Heaslips gotten cocky you could see it in his last interview but I think this will bring him down a pig or two and he will be great the 6 nations


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    No. Just no.

    I fear for Ferris.

    If he makes it, our other 4 back row players for the 6N, unless someone else stands up massively, should be Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien and Heaslip


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭yimrsg


    Conas wrote: »
    Agreed! Dominic Ryan should be given a go at 7 instead of flooding the squad with 6s and 8s. Having said that no one was complaining about O'Brien when we were on the front foot. Having said that SOB is an 8. Warburton was ok today but I fail to see how he's the special talent everyone's mouthing on about. He's good but he's not world class. See what's he's like against the All Blacks or Australia against better 7s in my eyes.

    Where's the Heaslip who side stepped and smashed his way over against the French in 09? Or ripped Clermont the shreds on this own in 2010? Don't know what happened to him to be honest.

    Dominic Ryan is nowhere near a full on groundhog 7 (yet) against Tipuric and the Dragons he and Leinster's pack was monstered by him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Everyone with half a knowledge of the game knew SOB wasn't a natural 7.

    You could say the same about David Wallace. If Wallace was there it would have made no difference because Wallace is like O'Brien not a natural 7. But if the intention was that O'Brien was going to be in genuine contention for the 7 shirt come the world cup Kidney should have given him more game time there. He didn't, instead O'Brien had to alter his game to play there when Wallace was injured. Not all that fair on O'Brien. Come next years Six Nation I don't know what backrow we'll have. Ferris in the second row has to be looked at...People on here with so called rugby brains talk utter nonsense when it come to this. Out of not more than fear. Put O'Brien into his best postions of either 6 or 8, and put in Dom Ryan or Jennings to 7.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭NoelJ


    I really find this pointless. Mike Ross only really was brought into the team this year. Ryan, Ruddock or anyone could be amazing in a few years. We could be left with O'Malley as 13 or there could be anyone.

    Bleeding in players can't happen really at international level. Kidney will be fired if we lose the 6 nations bad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Maybe the title of the thread was a bit harsh on Heaslip, could one of the mods change it to "how to accommodate Heaslip and O Briean?"

    Don't want to seem overly negative towards Heaslip when he wasn't the only one to play badly.;

    My querie is merely what to do with SOB and Heaslip of we're looking to accommodate a specialist 7


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Everyone with half a knowledge of the game knew SOB wasn't a natural 7.

    We need an alternative and I was suggesting Heaslip's position could be under threat given that SOB has become a more important player.

    Maybe take off the rose tinted glasses before branding me a troll.

    I'm still immensely proud of the lads for topping the group and I think if we had taken our chances today we could have won but nonetheless we have a lack of threat on the ground

    This is utter nonsense. It's like you've heard all these things before and are just repeating them back without really understanding them, especially that rose tinted glasses stuff.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Teferi wrote: »
    This is utter nonsense. It's like you've heard all these things before and are just repeating them back without really understanding them, especially that rose tinted glasses stuff.

    So you reconstruct my post as utter nonsense without any insight in one sentence without offering any insight as to why it's nonsense..............and I'm the troll???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    So you reconstruct my post as utter nonsense without any insight in one sentence without offering any insight as to why it's nonsense..............and I'm the troll???

    Yep. Just like you didn't respond to any of my points.

    This will go nowhere. I'm off to bed for a few hours kip. S'later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Teferi wrote: »
    Yep. Just like you didn't respond to any of my points.

    This will go nowhere. I'm off to bed for a few hours kip. S'later.


    good input


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    tolosenc wrote: »
    No. Just no.

    I fear for Ferris.

    If he makes it, our other 4 back row players for the 6N, unless someone else stands up massively, should be Ruddock, Dom Ryan, O'Brien and Heaslip


    Do you mean injury wise?
    Thought he had a decent world cup - massive tackler and makes yards.....would you drop him for an unknown leinster/munster backrower?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭Running Balance


    yimrsg wrote: »
    Wonderful reactionary thread with little input from the OP. Maybe we should be looking at why our entire backrow was poor, why ROG/Healy/etc looked out of sorts?

    Now is not the time for heads to roll (Ireland's next match is how far away?), now it's time to be grateful for all of the lads involved for what they have done. Thanks for the memories and let's hope for many more in the short term.
    totally agree, but i do think heaslip has been poor/out of form for the last yr or so, hopefully get it back for the 6 nations


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Do you mean injury wise?
    Thought he had a decent world cup - massive tackler and makes yards.....would you drop him for an unknown leinster/munster backrower?

    With his knee, I just don't see him playing pro rugby for more than acouple more seasons.

    Not dropped, we just need to get new players up to speed. If he makes the next World Cup he'll be hard to displace from the 6 shirt.


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  • yimrsg wrote: »
    Dominic Ryan is nowhere near a full on groundhog 7 (yet) against Tipuric and the Dragons he and Leinster's pack was monstered by him.

    yup, the (yet) there is perfect though. He's got an awful lot to learn, and I'm hoping he doesn't get second season syndrome, but he's the most "7-like" 7 that we are producing.

    What we need to understand better is when and how to change from using a groundhog to a tank. Leinster's HEC final a prime example of how a switch between a ball carrying 7 and a deckscrubber can change everything about the ball that you get.

    They both have their merits, and having both options available is invaluable. Unfortunately, we had 2 6s on the pitch, a 6 on the bench, and another guy who finished the season playing 6 too. This was possibly the biggest problem I had with the selection, and we saw it often. There was never a backup plan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭yimrsg


    yup, the (yet) there is perfect though. He's got an awful lot to learn, and I'm hoping he doesn't get second season syndrome, but he's the most "7-like" 7 that we are producing.

    What we need to understand better is when and how to change from using a groundhog to a tank. Leinster's HEC final a prime example of how a switch between a ball carrying 7 and a deckscrubber can change everything about the ball that you get.

    They both have their merits, and having both options available is invaluable. Unfortunately, we had 2 6s on the pitch, a 6 on the bench, and another guy who finished the season playing 6 too. This was possibly the biggest problem I had with the selection, and we saw it often. There was never a backup plan.

    The thing is though we don't seem to be making/training/developing them in any abundance compared to Wales who seem to have a conveyor belt of talent. Ryan plays more like David Wallace than Martyn Williams. If we want to play fast expansive rugby then we need a groundhog and at present the best in the squad is Heaslip, maybe it's him who should be earmarked for Ireland's future 7. We've more similarities with the French backrow; guys like Bonnaire, Harinordoquy, Dusatoir and Oeudrago all are tall fast mobile guys who can tackle, take lineouts and good on the round but not true specialists for one position and are interchangeable. Picamoles is different in that he does the majority of ball carrying.

    Wales have Martyn Williams who is now replaced by Warburton and Tipuric who are both 22 and Ryan is 21. Warburton is international class, Tipuric HC class and Ryan is still pro 12. Maybe because Leinster have such riches in the back row that it's harder for him to get games and develop that side. Even if Ryan doesn't turn out to be a groundhog 7 and develops into the style of player like one of the above French backrowers then he'll still be worth his weight in gold.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    "Warburton is international class, Tipuric HC class and Ryan is still pro 12. Maybe because Leinster have such riches in the back row that it's harder for him to get games and develop that side. Even if Ryan doesn't turn out to be a groundhog 7 and develops into the style of player like one of the above French backrowers then he'll still be worth his weight in gold."

    Given that Ryan scored tries and made the tackle of the season in the Heineken, describing him as Pro12 standard seems a bit much. Particularly when he's at a province so loaded with backrow quality (at least an entire full international backrow ahead of him) that they started seeing how Kevin McLoughlin and Rhys Ruddock did in the second row.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭yimrsg


    "Warburton is international class, Tipuric HC class and Ryan is still pro 12. Maybe because Leinster have such riches in the back row that it's harder for him to get games and develop that side. Even if Ryan doesn't turn out to be a groundhog 7 and develops into the style of player like one of the above French backrowers then he'll still be worth his weight in gold."

    Given that Ryan scored tries and made the tackle of the season in the Heineken, describing him as Pro12 standard seems a bit much. Particularly when he's at a province so loaded with backrow quality (at least an entire full international backrow ahead of him) that they started seeing how Kevin McLoughlin and Rhys Ruddock did in the second row.

    I thought my point was clear that in terms of being a groundhog scavenger, Ryan is behind Tipuric and far behind Warburton if we asked him to play like Martyn Williams, despite being of similar age, he's not up with other 7's of that ilk in the pro 12. Tipuric destroyed Leinster in the pro 12 recently and looked more than capable of stepping up in the HC. I mentioned that I thought of Ryan as being very similar to David Wallace in that he's fast powerful and athletic but isn't a typical 7.

    I've no doubt in Ryan's capabilities but I don't think he's not going to develop into a Brussow/McCaw/Pocock style player more so a French style backrower and to expect him to suddenly develop into a groundhog one in what is one the most competitive backrows around is not likely. In his circumstances, being a generalist would give more playing time in either 6, 7 or 8 rather than only focusing on a single position and being a specialist groundhog, a role that has been overlooked by past and present Irish management.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Maybe the title of the thread was a bit harsh on Heaslip, could one of the mods change it to "how to accommodate Heaslip and O Briean?"

    Don't want to seem overly negative towards Heaslip when he wasn't the only one to play badly.;

    My querie is merely what to do with SOB and Heaslip of we're looking to accommodate a specialist 7

    Easy, play them both at their best positions at 8 & 6 respectively.

    The issue is more how to accommodate SOB & Ferris and a specialist 7 (if we can find one). Does that mean/is it worth dropping Heaslip?

    For me thats a no. Heaslip doesn't reach the levels with Ireland as he does with Leinster mainly because of the outdated style of play Kidney has the side playing and the balance of the backrow which means he's left doing a lot of the dirty work that would normally be dealt with by Jennings at Leinster.

    Anyway the closet thing we have to a specialist 7 was sitting in the stands (after not even being picked in the initial 30 man squad) while we had two 6's on the pitch and 2 more on the bench.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭Dr.Evil


    I'm sure somebody will step up. I don't think Bowe or Heaslip made the World Cup squad, but made a huge impact in the Ireland jersey the following year. One or two of the young players around now will do similar I would hope. Whether it's Ryan, Ruddock, Gilroy, or others.


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