Roundabouts

Kintarō Hattori

Chaps,

Can I ask your advice on navigating roundabouts. On my journey into town I have about a million of them and had thought I'd been navigating them safely but it seems that may not have been the case.

The one linked to below is one of the first and certainly the busiest/most dangerous on my route. I've attached a plan of it from Google Maps. Red shows how I had been navigating it on the inside lane. Green is how I'm being told by two drivers how I should navigate it. They say I need to be in the outside lane as I'm taking the 3rd turnoff and that I should then move over into the inside lane.

I would have thought this was a risky maneuver for a cyclist as while that may very well be the rules of the road I suspect most people wouldn't expect a cyclist in the outside lane and then to change to the inside lane once off of the roundabout.



http://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.479529,-6.203622&spn=0.002548,0.006968&t=m&z=18&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=53.479528,-6.203624&panoid=WkpAo-Sbpj943j8dZj_5KQ&cbp=11,197.25,,0,9.28

Lumen

Do what cars do.

Do not go round the roundabout in the outside lane, or you will get creamed by an exiting car.

If you cannot change lanes safely before your chosen exit, continue round and do it again.

Always have a plan B.

Roger Hassenforder

+1 on doing what the cars do.
stay on the LHS of the right lane until you are passed the exit before yours (i.e. the on ramp to the motorway) & signal your intention to turn left.

goldencleric

I know this roundabout, Blake's Cross I believe. It is quite tricky, the left lane is labelled as D'bate and M1 south and the right is labelled M1 north/ Swords I believe, so it is a bit ambiguous.

I never know which to choose, I just try and be ahead of the traffic at the beginning and use the left lane.

IMO a person in the right lane really should definitely not be taking the M1 south exit so I choose to keep it in the left as you are doing. It is probably safer to take the right lane, easily accomplished from a stop as you suggested but extremely dangerous in the middle of a flow of traffic.

You could also get complete arseholes trying to undertake you as you are exiting at the Swords exit, if you use the right hand lane.

RacoonQueen

I'd take the green.

However, motorists are hypocrites. One roundabout I take on, I take the second exit, so I'd be the red on your diagram. Cars, more often than not taking the first or second exit will take the green - just so they don't have to drive behind me. Nearly get taken out - every time. Cars tend to go round roundabouts slower than bikes, I've a few small roundabouts on my commute as well and I always have to pull on the brakes so I don't rear end cars as I'm travelling faster than them, so I really don't understand why they feel the need to try and cut me out...

Kintarō Hattori

Lumen wrote: »

Do what cars do.

Do not go round the roundabout in the outside lane, or you will get creamed by an exiting car.

If you cannot change lanes safely before your chosen exit, continue round and do it again.

Always have a plan B.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

+1 on doing what the cars do.
stay on the LHS of the right lane until you are passed the exit before yours (i.e. the on ramp to the motorway) & signal your intention to turn left.

Heh mixed messages there. Looking at the RSA website they mention you need to be in the right hand (outside) lane as a motorist but it also throws up this:

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to:

...,
motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout,
...

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

So is that saying that as we are a cyclist it's perfectly OK for us to stay in the left hand lane?

Beasty

I navigate that roundabout on my commute. Normally the lights are on red when I approach it and I place myself in front of the first vehicle in the left lane. I can get away quicker than the traffic when the lights turn green and I quickly more into the right lane to take the 3rd exit

If the lights are on green when I'm approaching them I'll move from the hard shoulder into the middle of the left lane - I'm normally as fast as (or faster than) the traffic, and again I move out into the right lane as I hit the roundabout

The key is basically looking over your right shoulder and checking for traffic cutting across from the right hand lane to take the motorway exit - looking out for indicators in particular. I had one incident where I was on the left of the right lane when a driver tried to cut across me to take the motorway exit slip road - she basically forced me about 10 metres down the slip road before coming to a stop - she looked more shocked than I did when I went to her car to ask what she was playing at, and hopefully she had learned her lesson!

Having said all that, you are perfectly entitled to take the left hand lane all the way round the roundabout

Surveyor11

Basic rule - stay left if turning left (while indicating left) or going straight on (indicate when approaching exit if it's a roundabout with more then 4 exits), stay right if turning right (and indicate right, indicate left at exit). Note that some roundabouts are signed differently. People in cars are generally impatient and ignorant of cyclists, for instance I have one roundabout where I have to turn right - i stay to the left of the, right hand lane, arm out to indicate my intention. But not unusual for a car to take the left lane, under take me on the roundabout then cut in front of me for the same exit I'm taking. Dangerous for me, but sure if you're in a nice cosy car what the heck.

The big problem with roundabouts is that no one knows how to use them. No one indicates properly, so I never trust drivers. I hate using them on the bike and will try and engineer them out of a commute if I can help it.

Hermy

Beasty wrote: »

Having said all that, you are perfectly entitled to take the left hand lane all the way round the roundabout

You sure Beasty?

Beasty

Hermy wrote: »

You sure Beasty?

From the ROTR quoted above

In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to:

....
cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout

Now I know the ROTR are not the law, but they do reflect the law, and this is a subject we have covered before

Lumen

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Heh mixed messages there. Looking at the RSA website they mention you need to be in the right hand (outside) lane

The outside lane of a roundabout is on the left.

galwaycyclist

You may be "entitled" to stay in the left lane but it is arguably bad advice, especially if you are crossing multilane exits. Either you get off and walk or take a roundabout like a car making sure to prevent following traffic from trying to pass you in the same lane as you circulate and staying well clear of any entrances. Half of all bike car collisions on roundabouts involve entering drivers who fail to yield to circulating cyclists.

Beasty

I was not "advising" it - you will see from my earlier post the approach I take at the roundabout in question - I was simply stating what the rules allow (and many cyclists actually do in practice)

Jawgap

I know this roundabout very well.

If the light is red, I filter through and position myself ahead of the traffic but on the inside left of the right hand land (if that makes sense) - leaving the left lane for traffic heading for the motorway. I make sure I'm as far forward of the waiting traffic as possible without being on the roundabout itself.



When the lights go green, I stay towards the right, making sure traffic from the left lane, and anyone who fancies their chances coming out of the Donabate Road, has space to get to the motorway. Once I'm clear of the motorway turn I signal with my left arm, check over my shoulder then move back to the left, not forgetting to thank anyone who I've held up with the manoeuver!




If the lights are green as I approach I slow down and let them go red - if I get to the junction and they're still green I improvise a solution best on the explanation above with lots of looking, obvious signals and short sprints!

Raam

There is really only one answer: plough straight through the roundabout.

Idleater

My commute involves probably one of the only roundabouts in the country where _everyone_ (i.e almost everyone so you have to factor in the odd person that actually uses the road correctly) consistently uses the left lane of a 2 lane each way road to go to both an exit beyond 12 o'clock and > 2.

It's here at the top of Ballycoolin. When cycling this, I have to do the opposite of the above suggestions and indicate right whilst staying to the RHS of the left/outside lane, purely to allow me to exit at the third/fourth (depending if you consider a blocked off gate an exit) without the cars "undertaking" me around the outside.

HivemindXX

The green line is a terrible, worst of both worlds option. You should do what Roger suggested and follow green until you have passed the exit before the one you want and then transition to the left lane.

The rules I follow for roundabouts are; stay in the middle of my lane and keep my speed the same as the majority of traffic as much as I can. I take which lane to use on a case by case basis. For example on the Walkinstown roundabout I never go all the way in to the inside (3rd) lane.

I second the comment about people being hypocrites. Despite the zen attitude I try to cultivate when cycling I got in to an argument with a gob****e asshole moron person who overtook me on the outside and then immediately tried to cut across me to take the exit. He had to stop or hit me so he rolled down the window to give me his opinion. Apparently I shouldn't have been in the outside lane if I wasn't take the next exit but it was ok for him to be on the inside lane overtaking me when he wanted to take the next exit.

Lusk Doyle

Jawgap wrote: »

That's some shaky cycling. Were you out the previous night?

Raam wrote: »

There is really only one answer: plough straight through the roundabout.

Or get a lift around it!

Hermy

Beasty wrote: »

Now I know the ROTR are not the law, but they do reflect the law, and this is a subject we have covered before

I stand corrected. I honestly didn't know this was advocated by the rules of the road and I'm surprised this is the case to be honest. You learn something knew and all that.

Jawgap

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

That's some shaky cycling. Were you out the previous night?



Or get a lift around it!

Newbie mistake - set off in way too big a gear:)

galwaycyclist

Hermy wrote: »

I stand corrected. I honestly didn't know this was advocated by the rules of the road and I'm surprised this is the case to be honest. You learn something knew and all that.

The advice on roundabouts in the current edition of the RoTR was a matter of intense dispute with stakeholders when it was produced.

Bear in mind that in "law" the only rule for roundabouts is that you enter them by turning left. After that everything is pretty much down to lane discipline and traffic in possession of the junction having priority over entering and following traffic.

Khannie

I hate this roundabout, but I navigate it slightly differently (but I think the same as the OP). I keep to the centre of the left hand lane. Much like others I tend to hit the roundabout when lights are red and position myself in front of traffic. I anticipate the green light about a second before the cars do (because I've a better view of the opposing lights turning red) and stick in the centre of the left lane, indicating that I'm going past the M1 turn off with my right arm. It means I'm not cutting from the right lane back across to the left again. I've never had any trouble doing this. Much like the others, I tend to hit the M1 exit before any car has a chance to cut me off.

I do something similar at the (fairly similar) roundabout at swords / feltrim / pavillions.

Hermy

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The advice on roundabouts in the current edition of the RoTR was a matter of intense dispute with stakeholders when it was produced.

Bear in mind that in "law" the only rule for roundabouts is that you enter them by turning left. After that everything is pretty much down to lane discipline and traffic in possession of the junction having priority over entering and following traffic.

I think regardless of what the Rules say the fact that so few people actually negotiate roundabouts with any semblance of common sense means they're always going to be a hazard for cyclists.

emanresu

The inside of a road is on the left, near the kerb,
and the outside is on the right, near the centre.

There is confusion because some people think of a roundabout as a circle and refer to the side near the centre as the inside, and the side near the edge as the outside.

But the roadway on a roundabout is the same as any other part of the road, so the left hand lane is still the inside lane and the right hand lane is still the outside lane.
They are inside and outside of a road not of a circle.

Referring to inside and outside lanes causes confusion and it is necessary to try to find out what a poster really means from the rest of the text.

It is better to avoid those terms when talking about roundabouts and refer to left and right lanes instead (or Lane 1, Lane 2 etc).

(And, as with many other things, inside and outside lanes mean the opposite in the USA).

Lawr

I want to problematise this roundabout thing a bit by throwing a cycle lane into the mix.

I should begin by saying that I lost it today coming home. I was screaming obscenities at a driver. I must have called him everything in the book. I'm 54 years old. It's a big book. I even invited the pr*ck to exit his SUV. I must be losing it. I felt terrible later. Worse, I'll probably meet up with the bast*rd later and won't even recognise him. (Actually, I bet I will. Very distinctive features. Ugly.) Anyway, I did feel terrible, and I think it was because I wasn't sure if the guy was right or not. I think, though, that he was wrong. But the worst of it is that the cycle paths/lanes are really making the rules of the road an interpretive nightmare.

The pictures below illustrate my situation. Picture 1 is a map of the Corbally Roundabout. As you can see, four roads pour into that roundabout. I was on the Corbally Link Road, heading into Corbally via the Corbally Road. Entering at three o'clock on the map, I would exit at 12. The roundabout has two lanes. I would be on the inside entering, but switch to the outside as I rounded past the Athlunkard Street junction. Typically, traffic at rush hour is all converging on the Corbally Road. Traffic on Athlunkard Street does not grant right of way to those entering the roundabout from the Link Road, probably as they would never move if they did. So everyone dumps into the roundabout. It's a mess, but if people move slowly, everyone manages.

Picture 2 is a satellite image of the same roundabout. The unnumbered picture is where I entered, where you see the orange truck in the photo. Difficult to see in that photo, there is a cycle lane adjacent to the footpath on the other side of a railing to the left of the road as it enters the roundabout. That cycle path continues on the other side of the next exit and continues up and dumps onto Athlunkard Street in the direction of the Limerick city centre. Picture 3 views the roundabout from the service road to the left of where I exited. You might be able to make out the cycle path and the railing next to the lady walking toward the city centre on Athlunkard Street. I would be about where that silver car is straight ahead in the picture.

Picture 4 looks toward the Corbally Road. I would have been on the outside of the outside lane, following the path of the car in the photo. You can see to the left that there is a grassy area to the left.

What is probably not visible is the cycle path that extends from Athlunkard St., about 10 yards before the roundabout to the Corbally Road, exiting onto the road just as you exit the roundabout. Pictures 5 and 7 (I am only allowed 5 photos, so I'll post a follow up with the remaining two photos so you can see what I'm talking about.

Lawr

So picture 5 shows you where cyclists are expected to leave the road and enter the cycle path. Picture 7 shows you were it dumps off onto the road after the roundabout. Picture 8 shows you that there is no cycle path or lane or anything after the roundabout as you head toward County Clare. Many people cycle on the footpath, avoiding the road altogether.

There is no such cycle by-pass for the Link Road. That cycle path continues on into the city centre.

What got me started with this guy was that I was on the left, nearly against the curb and this guy in his SUV was pinching in on me. I wasn't moving. I knocked on his vehicle to let him know that I was right there. How he didn't see me or my lights is hard to imagine, as I'd been behind him through the roundabout. I have a very bright light.

Nevertheless, when I knocked on his vehicle, he lowered his passenger side windows and started in on me. The thing that got me first was "you cyclists"--immediately, it was a you and us situation, and the you's were the bad guys. Secondly, he started insisting that I should be on the cycle path, which was a good five yards to my left across a swath of grass.

I asked him if he knew where I had come from, implying that in order for me to be on that cycle path, I would have had to be coming from town. He said he knew where I had come from and insisted that I should be on the cycle path. That's when I lost it.

Looking at it now, there was no way to use that cycle path given the direction from which I had been coming. To be honest, I hardly ever use the cycle lanes anyway, as I find that it confuses the road user's obligation toward me. Who has the right of way when a cycle path crosses a road, for instance, as in picture 3?

I think that cycle paths have obfuscated the status of cyclists and made travelling by bike more dangerous than ever. If drivers and cyclists had to share one space, cyclists would have to know the rules of the road and motor vehicles would have to accommodate cyclists. Of course, there are many places with no adjacent cycle lanes and I've had weeks where I'd been strafed a half-dozen times. Motorists seem to have this sense that nothing should impede their progress. If they need to pass me, but can't because oncoming traffic is not accommodating them, they'll squeeze through, sometimes at speed. These cars pass me with only inches to spare and often force me onto the curb.

Cycle paths and lanes are confusing both cyclists and motorists. Is a bicycle a road vehicle (by law, yes), or is it something else? I think that I lost it with this guy because he called attention to the thing that most aggravates me about this legal obligation to use cycle lanes: that it is divisive. It calls attention to the fact that many motorists do not want to share this space with cyclists. This guy started with "you cyclists". It was said in a tone of derogation. Then, to sweeten the deal, he began to attribute my resistance to his "interpretation" of my legal obligations as a cyclist as due to my not being Irish. This guy had a pigeon hole for everyone that did not think like him. The only sensible appeal that I made was one of scale: no matter what the interpretation of the rules, this guy was responsible for 2 to 2 1/2 tons of steel against my 11 stone. He had an obligation to vulnerable road users. And in fairness to him, though we continued on in the same direction, he didn't try to take retribution with his vehicle as I passed him further up the road.

alaimacerc

Lumen wrote: »

Do what cars do.

Please themselves?

Looking at the map, I'm not sure what cars would do. There's the "I'm going straight, so I take the left lane" theory, but then there's also the "it's the third exit, so I take the right lane" theory. Absent any explicit markings, you're pretty much down to "consensus hunch".

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

So is that saying that as we are a cyclist it's perfectly OK for us to stay in the left hand lane?

By the ROTR, you can do either. By the attitude of motorists... they'll form their own theory (generally amounting to, whatever's most convenient for them at any given moment in time), and expect you to have done that.

Case in point: last night I approaching a roundabout, intending to turn right, so I'd gone to the outside of the right lane. Along comes car from behind me, swerving suddenly to the left, then stopping to excoriate me for being in "the fast lane". (And I quote. This is a matter of metres from the roundabout.) I try to explain the whole "get in lane" concept, but it seems he was dead set about overtaking at that point, or maybe just taking the "racing line" through the roundabout-chicane, for all the sense he was making on the point. I guess I should be grateful he didn't just "collect" me on the way through, but it illustrates the difficulty of doing what motorists "expect" you to do.

Beasty wrote: »

Now I know the ROTR are not the law, but they do reflect the law, and this is a subject we have covered before

My understanding is that they don't have force of law as such, but if there's an insurance claim, or a careless/dangerous driving court case, who was (and who wasn't) following the ROTR will certainly be taken into account. Well, that's the theory.

Jawgap wrote: »

If the light is red, I filter through and position myself ahead of the traffic but on the inside left of the right hand land (if that makes sense) - leaving the left lane for traffic heading for the motorway. I make sure I'm as far forward of the waiting traffic as possible without being on the roundabout itself.

There's a couple of junctions where I end up doing that. It's not ideal, as you're potentially going to get passed on either side -- or worse, cut up either left-to-right, or right-to-left -- but it's the best you can do in some circumstances. One roundabout I regularly have to deal with has three lanes on several entries. The left hand is left-turn only, so if you're going straight ahead, you have to be in the middle lane... and it's by no means guaranteed you won't have people ignoring the turn arrow, and undertaking you to go straight, or people from the second lane pulling out, overtaking you, and cutting you up to turn left directly in front of you. It'd be a mark of shame for some people to be seen to be behind a bicycle for two seconds, after all.

When the lights go green, I stay towards the right, making sure traffic from the left lane, and anyone who fancies their chances coming out of the Donabate Road, has space to get to the motorway. Once I'm clear of the motorway turn I signal with my left arm, check over my shoulder then move back to the left, not forgetting to thank anyone who I've held up with the manoeuver!

Yup, I think that's the ideal way, and is feasible if there's a gap, or if the traffic's so chock-a-block it's moving slower than you. In some cases you do have to resort to taking the exit on the far side of the right lane, and stop and recover from there. (At least you have all the loonies on one side of you, all going the same way, at that point.)

Idleater wrote: »

My commute involves probably one of the only roundabouts in the country where _everyone_ (i.e almost everyone so you have to factor in the odd person that actually uses the road correctly) consistently uses the left lane of a 2 lane each way road to go to both an exit beyond 12 o'clock and > 2.

That's really stretching the definition of "straight ahead", isn't it? Crazy layout, I guess it's just robbed the motorists of whatever small sense they had at that point.

HivemindXX wrote: »

I second the comment about people being hypocrites. Despite the zen attitude I try to cultivate when cycling I got in to an argument with a gob****e asshole moron person who overtook me on the outside and then immediately tried to cut across me to take the exit. He had to stop or hit me so he rolled down the window to give me his opinion. Apparently I shouldn't have been in the outside lane if I wasn't take the next exit but it was ok for him to be on the inside lane overtaking me when he wanted to take the next exit.

Right of way goes to those with the greater momentum!

Hermy wrote: »

I think regardless of what the Rules say the fact that so few people actually negotiate roundabouts with any semblance of common sense means they're always going to be a hazard for cyclists.

Testify. It worries me that they're still showing public information films on TV to explain these "new-fangled" roundabouts. But it worries me even more when I see how urgently required they are.

Lawr wrote: »

Is a bicycle a road vehicle (by law, yes), or is it something else?

Two attitudes are pretty common: people that think that bikes shouldn't be on the road at all (and special cases of this, like that they shouldn't be on N roads, say); and those that are prepared to concede that they are, but on sufferance. The idea that they have equality in terms of right of way, etc, is very much a distant third. Just occasionally you'll get the odd person who seems so apprehensive about a bike that they'll hover nervously at your shoulder, crawling along (or at the other side of a junction, etc), no matter how much you give them the elbow, the nod of the head, the full-scale wave of the arm at the shoulder, etc.