Do you think you'll ever purchase an electric car?

MidlandsM

I saw the new clever TV ad for the Renault ZE range and it got me thinking - would i ever buy one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKg-LPOXIMs

Right now,one would'nt fit my needs being wayyyyy too expensive and the range/technology is still not advanced enough, but apart from those considerations, would you or will you ever part from a petrol/derv burner and buy one in the future?

Will it be inevitable for you?

CiniO

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

I would even today if I could afford it.

I have 2 cars, one of which is used for longer journeys, while other never does more than 100km per day.

The second one could easily be electrical.

The Guvnor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

No.

I do however own an electric reach truck - tight turning circle. Does what a km per week!:D

polod

No def not. how could you tow trailer with them ? id say it would be hard on the batteries My 1.9 tdi car can pull a tonne no bother. They would only suit city folk imo.

Big Nasty

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

No way never!

Thread needs poll.

L1011

Not unless the country shrinks. Significantly.

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

No.

Electric and/or hybrid cars are just a fad and are not the technology that will see cars into the next 100 years IMO.

Manufacturers are developing them now based on the 'seen to be green' idea that was started when all the american a list jumped on the Prius bandwagon but in general, when you take into account the way the electricity used to charge electric cars is produced, their overall foot print is far from green.

Liquid Hydrogen engines are the long term future IMO

Master and commander

They are a totally unproven and still experimental concept and i wont touch one until i am convinced of their capabilities. I won't eb convinced until it reaches 2nd or 3rd generation.
The things i will want in a car are;
- reliability under arduous conditions - can an electric vehicle handle mud water grit and salt up to the axles like a diesel can
- durability - i want a car with a minimum lifespan of 12 years or at least 200,000 miles. Diesels seem to go on for ever. You see mondeos with 350k miles and still going strong.
-obvisouly range is the big one, you gotta have at least 500 miles to the charge up

So when the manufacturers make a car that meets the above and equals or exceeds the diesel car's abilities at a competeitive price, then i will buy one. Till that day comes, i will stick to the proven diesel.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term future IMO

still an electric car technically. Battery pack just replaced with a fuel cell. But you are correct, it is the most long term solution. Fuel cell are just way too expensive at the present time.

At the end of the day, all the green eco spiel is of no consequence. 99% of folk don't give 2 sh!ts about the environment, CO2 or the ozone layer. It all comes down to $$$s.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

No.

Electric and/or hybrid cars are just a fad and are not the technology that will see cars into the next 100 years IMO.

Manufacturers are developing them now based on the 'seen to be green' idea that was started when all the american a list jumped on the Prius bandwagon but in general, when you take into account the way the electricity used to charge electric cars is produced, their overall foot print is far from green.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term future IMO

I disagree with everything you say. But at the moment I only want to point out that hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric cars.

subway

not sure tbh, i've started becoming more varied in my choice of transports recently.
i can use the bus/dart for trips into town, dublinbikes for getting around town, have a pushbike for local journeys, work from home 9 days out of 10 and the M5 gets me to where i need to go when i am in a hurry.

i actually think i wouldnt mind one as a cheap run around but not sure where it would fit it. seems like an expensive addition to just use it for going to the shops etc.

i could probably see myself with a motorbike and an electric car in a few years, but would probably hire a petrol car every now and then for big journeys.

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Master and commander wrote: »

still an electric car technically. Battery pack just replaced with a fuel cell. But you are correct, it is the most long term solution. Fuel cell are just way too expensive at the present time..

Some are being developed with that idea, but BMW and others have developed internal combustion engines which are running on liquid hydrogen...thats the technology I'm following with interest as you have a normal engine, with normal engine power, function, noises etc but the only emmission is water vapour!

Zubeneschamali

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

MidlandsM wrote: »

would you or will you ever part from a petrol/derv burner and buy one in the future?

I've nothing against electric cars, in principle. In practice, batteries have a long way to go before they give the range and convenience of petrol/diesel.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Some are being developed with that idea, but BMW and others have developed internal combustion engines which are running on liquid hydrogen...thats the technology I'm following with interest as you have a normal engine, with normal engine power, function, noises etc but the only emmission is water vapour!

Not normal fuel consumption though:



You might have a bit of range issue at 50 litres per 100 kilometers. That's before you go into storage issues and the fossil energy used to create the hydrogen in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I disagree with everything you say. But at the moment I only want to point out that hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric cars.

Thats the joy of a discussion but hydrogen FUEL CELL cars are electric cars yes, but liquid hydrogen power cars are most certainly not.

I correct my post though as I just noticed I wrote hydrogen fuel cell instead of liquid hydrogen:o

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Not normal fuel consumption though:



You might have a bit of range issue at 50 litres per 100 kilometers. That's before you go into storage issues and the fossil energy used to create the hydrogen in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

Yes, and what was the fuel consumption figures for the very first petrol engines?

Technology has to develop, IMO electric/hybrid cars are just the stopgap between petrol/diesel and liquid hydrogen.

Big Nasty

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I disagree with everything you say. But at the moment I only want to point out that hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric cars.

Do you just hover over the forum waiting for EV threads to come up?

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Yes, and what was the fuel consumption figures for the very first petrol engines?

Technology has to develop, IMO electric/hybrid cars are just the stopgap between petrol/diesel and liquid hydrogen.

We're not starting from a 19th century steam technology position. This is the 21st century, we've long ago landed on the moon, harnessed nuclear fission, sent space probes outside our solar system etc. Technology has moved on, the hydrogen fuel cell is more efficient than using hydrogen in an ICE power plant.

Electric motors seem to have served just fine for a long time in nuclear submarines and high speed trains (just some of their uses). Saying they're a stopgap is like saying they've only just appeared, when in fact they have been around as long as the internal combustion engine and we've used them for transport purposes for a long time.

Anan1

Master and commander wrote: »

The things i will want in a car are;
- reliability under arduous conditions - can an electric vehicle handle mud water grit and salt up to the axles like a diesel can
- durability - i want a car with a minimum lifespan of 12 years or at least 200,000 miles. Diesels seem to go on for ever. You see mondeos with 350k miles and still going strong.
-obvisouly range is the big one, you gotta have at least 500 miles to the charge up

I'd imagine electric motors are many, many times more durable and reliable than a modern diesel engine right now - so that just leaves range.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Do you just hover over the forum waiting for EV threads to come up?

This thread is about electric vehicles, it's not about me. Feel free to start a thread about me if that's your interest

Owen

He's a closet member of the green party.

MidlandsM

Yes, but I'll never buy a Renault one! :)

Poll now added.......good discussion and opinions so far !

Big Nasty

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

This thread is about electric vehicles, it's not about me. Feel free to start a thread about me if that's your interest

I'm just waiting for the hydrogenengine to come along!

EPM

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Wouldn't suit me. My usual daily commutes about 460km. If I had a Leaf for example I'd probably need juice on the way up, on the way back down and then charge it again for the following morning. I've better things to be doing that wasting time charging the bloody thing. For the moment my smelly, dirty diesel will do the job just fine.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

EPM wrote: »

Wouldn't suit me. My usual daily commutes about 460km. If I had a Leaf for example I'd probably need juice on the way up, on the way back down and then charge it again for the following morning. I've better things to be doing that wasting time charging the bloody thing. For the moment my smelly, dirty diesel will do the job just fine.

For a cool 1.2 million you could have your basic needs covered by an EV

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/cartech/rimac-concept-one-is-a-1340bhp-electric-supercar-50005191/

Big Nasty

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

EPM wrote: »

My usual daily commutes about 460km

:eek::eek::eek:

I would barely do that a month!

Anan1

MidlandsM wrote: »

Right now,one would'nt fit my needs being wayyyyy too expensive and the range/technology is still not advanced enough, but apart from those considerations, would you or will you ever part from a petrol/derv burner and buy one in the future?

Will it be inevitable for you?

Let's put it another way. If EV dealt with range, cost, and charging time, can anyone think of a single reason to buy an ICE car?

subway

Anan1 wrote: »

Let's put it another way. If EV dealt with range, cost, and charging time, can anyone think of a single reason to buy an ICE car?

lol, if an EV was better in every way than an ICE then its an easy argument...
the fact is they are not in the most common ways that ICE vehicles are measured, and better in other ways, which makes it a more interesting argument

Master and commander

Anan1 wrote: »

I'd imagine electric motors are many, many times more durable and reliable than a modern diesel engine right now - so that just leaves range.

I have no quibble on the electric motor itself, you are correct. they are simple and bulletproof as can be seen with the traction motors of locomotives.

what i doubt is the durability of all the power electronics and batteries that they are driven by. i worked in machinery sector befgore and the vast majority of faults are electronic control related, not mechanical.
Batteries currently wear out fast, some vehicles claim to have a 100000km life battery - and they are proud of it. That is a pathetic lifespan for a major component of the vehicle. whereas a diesel engine will operate indefinitely.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

btw Diesel power is the choice of proplusion if you want a quieter submarine.

There are quiet diesel subs, I'm sure I've read the Germans make them. I'm not a submarine expert, so I won't offer an opinion contrary to yours on the quietness factor. What I will say, somewhat ironically I feel, nuclear submarines and nuclear aircraft carriers use nuclear/electric propulsion systems because of range considerations. Poor old diesel submarines don't have the overall range or submersed range of nuclear electric submarines.

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

We're not starting from a 19th century steam technology position. This is the 21st century, we've long ago landed on the moon, harnessed nuclear fission, sent space probes outside our solar system etc. Technology has moved on, the hydrogen fuel cell is more efficient than using hydrogen in an ICE power plant.

Electric motors seem to have served just fine for a long time in nuclear submarines and high speed trains (just some of their uses). Saying they're a stopgap is like saying they've only just appeared, when in fact they have been around as long as the internal combustion engine and we've used them for transport purposes for a long time.

We are starting from the equivalent of the 19th century when it comes to liquid hydrogen engines, its a new technology regardless of how advanced other technologies are now.

And as for electric motors being used for years in transport....not in cars they haven't. And mentioning trains and submarines is ridiculous IMO, electric trains run from over head power lines or get their power from the rails and electric submarines make their own power from nuclear reactor on board...neither have any relevance to or possible use whatsoever in cars.

And as you mentioned yourself, electric engines/motors are as old as petrol ones so its a new technology that is truly green and suitable to the car as we know and use it today is needed.

_Conrad_

Yes, but I'll never buy a Renault one! :)

Not if i can avoid it, I hope something else such as hydrogen is developed properly before i'm forced to get an electric car.

Master and commander

LIGHTNING wrote: »

btw Diesel power is the choice of proplusion if you want a quieter submarine.

all submarines are electrically propelled. Diesel engine drives generator which either directly powers elecric propulsion motors or charges batteries for submerged operation.

Same with locomotives. Diesel engine drives alternator which drives traction motors in bogies.
Diesel electric propulsion either way, get your facts right mate.

skregs

Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?

Master and commander

Will you just get back on topic and stop rattling on about submarines. FFS

I can read, it is you who are clearly wrong as you said DIESEL PROPULSION. Its not, its DIESEL ELECTRIC.

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

We are starting from the equivalent of the 19th century when it comes to liquid hydrogen engines, its a new technology regardless of how advanced other technologies are now.

And as for electric motors being used for years in transport....not in cars they haven't. And mentioning trains and submarines is ridiculous IMO, electric trains run from over head power lines or get their power from the rails and electric submarines make their own power from nuclear reactor on board...neither have any relevance to or possible use whatsoever in cars.

And as you mentioned yourself, electric engines/motors are as old as petrol ones so its a new technology that is truly green and suitable to the car as we know and use it today is needed.

If our society set out to invent the bow and arrow today, how difficult would it be for us? How about we set out to invent a basic cannon? Would any of these tasks be as hard as it was for their original inventors? If not, why not?

A designer/engineer in a car company today can model various engine configurations hundreds or thousands of times using modern computing power to reach an optimal design configuration. We have tools available to us now that were not available to original pioneers of internal combustion engines.

I mention the use of electric motors only to show that they are a refined and reliable technology. Accordingly putting an electric motor in a car is not such a big deal. It's just a logical progression, they are more efficient than ICE after all.

Also you're not proposing we use a new technology, you're proposing we continue to use ICE.

Nissan doctor

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

Sitec wrote: »

I think they are the future. The technology is only going to improve and become easier to live with.

Before people jump on board there are a few problems.

1. The price of the vehicle is too much.
2. Lack of charging points.
3. The manufacturer will have to prove they're reliable.

These things will all come in time but you would be bonkers to buy one now.

I don't agree, Unless the world undertakes a multi trillion dollar/euro revamp of the way electricity is produced today then plug in electric vehicles are not the way forward. You may safe on fuel use in your daily commute, but you will have to pay for the electricity, which is produced, mostly, from fossil fuel burning power stations and an increase in electric vehicles, would increase the load on these stations, cancelling out any emmission savings made the using the electric car.

eagerv

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Noise, the enjoyment of interacting with your car i.e (downshifting coming into a nice corner etc)

Agreed, I am sure it will be easy to simulate if required:)

Back to the OP, I think electric vehicles are the future, not sure what the energy storage will be though.

Interesting thread.

Big Nasty

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

eagerv wrote: »

Agreed, I am sure it will be easy to simulate if required:)

http://jalopnik.com/353460/virtual-engine-noisemaker-will-confuse-intimidate-the-other-minivans

Master and commander

Noise, the enjoyment of interacting with your car i.e (downshifting coming into a nice corner etc)

the average joe soap has little or no interest in such things. They just want to get from a to b with minimum hassle. What your talking about is a very small market for manufacturers to be concerned with. They may make some premium vehicles with ICEs to keep ye happy. or else a simulated version in an EV

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't agree, Unless the world undertakes a multi trillion dollar/euro revamp of the way electricity is produced today then plug in electric vehicles are not the way forward. You may safe on fuel use in your daily commute, but you will have to pay for the electricity, which is produced, mostly, from fossil fuel burning power stations and an increase in electric vehicles, would increase the load on these stations, cancelling out any emmission savings made the using the electric car.

Opponents of EV's are fond of pointing out that electricity is still mostly produced from fossil fuels and that these must be accounted for in emissions. Have you considered not only the emissions from your cars tail pipe but the CO2 emitted to get the oil out of the ground, refine it and transport it several times before it is ever burned in your car? Do you know how that process of oil extraction, transportation, refinement, transportation and eventually burning in your car compares to an EV run off the grid?

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Power_Station_to_Wheels/

Do you know how much energy is wasted at night time when power plants keep turning over because civilisation cant be turned off at night? Most EV owners charge at night which uses energy that would otherwise be wasted anyway. Another way of putting that, if the EV owner hadn't charged his/her car at night, the energy would still have been produced at the power plant and subsequently wasted. You would have to have a lot of EV's (250k the SEAI said in a report I think) before you need to generate extra electricity.

MidlandsM

Yes, but I'll never buy a Renault one! :)

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Noise, the enjoyment of interacting with your car i.e (downshifting coming into a nice corner etc)

would the Tesla not tickle yer fancy?;)

SouperComputer

With current prices, wont be buying one anytime soon, but I might convert a small car like a CRV to EV this winter.

slimjimmc

Nissan doctor wrote: »

We are starting from the equivalent of the 19th century when it comes to liquid hydrogen engines, its a new technology regardless of how advanced other technologies are now.

And as for electric motors being used for years in transport....not in cars they haven't. And mentioning trains and submarines is ridiculous IMO, electric trains run from over head power lines or get their power from the rails and electric submarines make their own power from nuclear reactor on board...neither have any relevance to or possible use whatsoever in cars.

And as you mentioned yourself, electric engines/motors are as old as petrol ones so its a new technology that is truly green and suitable to the car as we know and use it today is needed.

Electric motors are ideally suited to transport and especially cars (better torque curve, quieter, lighter, more compact, independent control) and have been used in far harsher environments for over a century.

Electric motors are a perfect choice, the weakness is the energy source. Battery technology is improving all the time, it'll take time but they'll get there, just like it took time for the early IC cars to develop enough that you could travel a decent range without breaking down on your way to a pharmacy to buy dino-juice.

SV

Not until I see how hydrogen powered technology develops.

I'll be like Will Smith in I-Robot on the motorbike before I buy an electric car.

Bruthal

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Electric motors seem to have served just fine for a long time in nuclear submarines and high speed trains (just some of their uses). Saying they're a stopgap is like saying they've only just appeared, when in fact they have been around as long as the internal combustion engine and we've used them for transport purposes for a long time.

Electric motors would have no problem powering cars, its supplying the electrical power for them that is the problem.

Nuclear subs are large enough to accomodate a nuclear reactor to steam power an electric generator, and a high speed train or any electric train can have an overhead line, neither of which would be too practical in a car.

savagecabbages

Compare one fossil fuel burning power station charging 1000 electric cars at once vs 1000 fossil fuel burning cars operating at the same time. The economy of scale certainly favours the power station. Also the power station is also powering everything it normally powers.

What we do have in this country (and almost every other) is an electricity grid that goes to each and every home in the country, allowing cars to be charged at any home.

I'm not very clued in on hydrogen vehicles, but I assume the infrastructure would have to be rolled out to petrol stations to allow mass usage. This would be expensive. Especially when compared to the infrastructure (Power grid) which already exists to charge EV's.

For now electric wins hands down, in that we know what it is capable of.
Hydrogen is a bit of a wildcard at the moment. Too early to see if its viable or not...

pippip

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

I notice Renault have really jumped into this now with a few different models.....including a electric Kangoo van!

Sesshoumaru

No, not ever, I'm not convinced.

Currently the Leaf takes 30 mins to get to 84% from 0% using a DC rapid charger.

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/2011/10/10/2011-10-10_nissan_develops_10minute_electric_car_charger_.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20118306-48/nissan-developing-a-10-minute-car-charger-report-says/

The breakthrough reportedly came by changing the electrode inside a capacitor from carbon to tungsten oxide and vanadium oxide to improve power, reports Asean Automotive News.

Batteries charged using the updated system were complete in ten minutes, with no significant effect on storage capacity or voltage, the reports said.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/2011/10/10/2011-10-10_nissan_develops_10minute_electric_car_charger_.html#ixzz1aYbtgBKu

There is also talk of reducing this down to 3 minutes and the researchers say it doesn't affect battery capacity. The other important point on this is that they are talking about 0% to 100% charge times of 3 minutes or 10 minutes. At the moment the current DC rapid charger gets you from 0% to 84% in about 30 minutes. The remaining 16% takes another 15 minutes if you want a 100% charge from a DC rapid charger.