Has our IT Industry become like India's IT Industry?

strokemyclover

I seen a jobs announcement for a finance house in Tralee on the news earlier in the week. They cited the main reason for moving their IT development jobs from India to Ireland was the loyalty of Irish workers in comparison to India's workers who move from job to job to progress their careers after short terms. The company wanted to keep (IT and product) knowledge provided to workers in-house for longer.

Having had to look for a job over the past few months and looking at friends' situations too I don't think the Irish IT workforce is a million miles away from the situation in India to be honest. I know there are people who settle into a job and get sufficient opportunities to progress in the jobs they stay in for 5+ years. Then again, I know people who would stay the course for less than 5 years before deciding to move on to a better situation to further their careers/get extra money.

I realise the situation in India is probably more drastic than it is here in terms of time before trying to move to a better situation. I would like to get an idea of the IT market out there at the moment to see how many are out of work looking for jobs in comparison to those in work actively looking for other opportunities. Don't worry, I'm not an agency rep or reporter, I'm just out of work and desperate for a job!

I am currently out of work 8 months now at this stage, actively looking for 7 months. I have had 18+ interviews in that time. I am fully qualified, have over 5 years IT experience in my chosen field, there are tonnes of jobs in my field out there but I always seem to get down to a last 2 or 3 situation when interviewing and get pipped at the final decision. My impression from the feedback received is that I'm getting pipped by those who are coming from a job. I had to leave my previous position for medical reasons and left on great terms with fantastic references.

Poll to follow

Stheno

I'm on my fifth job in five years, been a mix of permanent and contract in that time. The longest I've had between roles in that time has been two months.

Do you mind me asking what field you work in OP?

strokemyclover

Stheno wrote: »

I'm on my fifth job in five years, been a mix of permanent and contract in that time. The longest I've had between roles in that time has been two months.

Do you mind me asking what field you work in OP?

ASP.NET development & support - mainly support

If I'm being honest, the development side of things is letting me down as I've only had 6 months exposure to any sort of development and that was in VB6 but I'm a solid 5+ years on the support side.

Mrs OBumble

Somehow I'm picking that workforce stability in Tralee is a bit higher than in Dublin, or even Cork :rolleyes:

Oh, and I don't know what sort of sweeteners India's equivalent of the IDA offers ...


Seriously though, it's good to hear of a company that's realise that "lower-cost geographies" may not be that long term.

Manach

As a matter of career progression, a certain amount of moving from company to company does seem to short-circuit the end of year revenue process.

starlit

JustMary wrote: »

Somehow I'm picking that workforce stability in Tralee is a bit higher than in Dublin, or even Cork :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be so sure about that!?

Eoin

I'll be 4 years in my current job in January, my last one was 6 years and I ended up there after a transfer from a subsidiary where I was working for 3 years. I've learnt a lot in my current place, so happy to stay there. In my last place, I was doing a variation of the same stuff for a few years. But the money was OK, and the benefits were very good so I got a bit stuck into a rut.

@strokemyclover - what type of support and where are you based? We've been trying to hire experienced staff for a while and there does seem to be a shortage.

My impression from the feedback received is that I'm getting pipped by those who are coming from a job

As in they're implying that you didn't get the job because you were out of work? That seems a bit strange. The only concern I would have in an interview if someone was out of work is if I got the impression that they sat on their arse the whole time without up-skilling or whatever in their spare time. In fact, an immediate start date could be an advantage.

strokemyclover

I've been non-stop looking for a job since and the stress related to that is enough for anyone tbh. I haven't had the money or time to think about a course in the meantime.

I'm always looking to upskill but now it's employer dependant due to circumstances. Right now, it feels like I'm banging my head against a wall....I'll get a job eventually, I'm sure of that, but it's not happening soon enough.

Loyalty and commitment aren't my only traits but they appear to be the only things going for me right now. I just can't get that across in an interview without sounding desperate - which obviously turns employers off. They're looking for the enthusiastic these days; in all honesty, any employer who's given me a chance in the past has been rewarded by 110% commitment to the cause, paid or unpaid - I just want to get the job done to everyone's expectations, that's where I get my satisfaction in work, regardless of personal sacrifices.

I'm in Dublin BTW

Eoin

Are you based in Tralee, or is that just the company you were reading up about?

Also, what type of support do you do? Sysadmin / end user support type work, software support etc?

By up-skilling, I meant even just picking up stuff yourself (online tutorials / web projects / a few books etc).

the_syco

strokemyclover wrote: »

I seen a jobs announcement for a finance house in Tralee on the news earlier in the week. They cited the main reason for moving their IT development jobs from India to Ireland was the loyalty of Irish workers in comparison to India's workers who move from job to job to progress their careers after short terms. The company wanted to keep (IT and product) knowledge provided to workers in-house for longer.

I prefer my version:
They cited the main reason for moving their IT development jobs from India to Ireland was that they could understand the Irish people, and that because of the recession, they can now offer f**k all and get good quality people.

Also, if you pay peanuts, I doubt people will be loyal to you. Anyone know how many people they employed in India, and for how little?

Eoin

I would be very surprised if Irish IT staff were cheaper than Indian staff, even if the Irish staff were not being paid big bucks (especially given that it's a strong market for experienced IT staff at the moment).

Offshoring IT work can turn out to be a false economy quite easily.

strokemyclover

Eoin wrote: »

I would be very surprised if Irish IT staff were cheaper than Indian staff, even if the Irish staff were not being paid big bucks (especially given that it's a strong market for experienced IT staff at the moment).

Offshoring IT work can turn out to be a false economy quite easily.

No doubt Irish workers are more expensive. As I seen it in the news and described it; the rep for that company in Tralee said specifically the Irish tendency to be loyal was a major reason for moving their operations here. I just don't see it that way with how my friends are treating their current situations/how hard I'm finding it to get a job/how easily some are looking for other things actively and passively while in full time employment.

Despite how the poll is going, according to my friends, I would say 75% in a job are looking for another one. I reckon that's biased, but I can only go by how I see it according to those around me, probably based on 13/14 people currently in IT.

fret_wimp2

Edit: removed content. apologies

krissovo

In my experience of the Global outsourcing market with a major player, Ireland clearly has the lowest attrition rate globally especially against our low cost centers like India, Philippines and China. For example a center in Ireland will turn over approximately 18% of staff in year and the equivalent center for very similar roles in the Philippines will turn over around 32%.

I have some ideas why this is:

Firstly - Money, a tech starting salary in Manila is about €5k compared to €20k in Ireland. 3 years ago the starting salary in Manila was around €3k and Ireland was still €20k so tech's are changing jobs quicker to keep their market rate where in Ireland the market rate is decreasing if anything. The rates will fall again once another low cost location is open. The salaries are starting to stagnate and attrition is starting to lower with the opening of China.

Secondly - Capability, Western tech's as a whole have far superior problem solving skills, stress management and can handle flexibility much better than our Asian counterparts. This is not meant to be racist in anyway but a reality for anyone doing business with low cost locations. Due to this pressure once a low cost tech hits their limit they will move to a new role where in Ireland it is seen as a positive challenge.

Thirdly - Productivity - If it takes 20 tech's in Ireland to perform a service it takes 25 in our low cost locations. Our low cost locations also need additional management overhead to keep them focused on projects. Given the extra manpower requirement attrition will always be higher.

krissovo

Eoin wrote: »

Offshoring IT work can turn out to be a false economy quite easily.

This is very true, in my previous post I mention the additional overhead requirement. Another issue that we have found is that the retained organization of a customer that has been outsourced needs to be larger for quality control and service management etc. Also in some countries data and voice costs would be 10x that of Ireland which lead to some significant costs that were never calculated during the off shoring negotiations.

srsly78

OP you made a big mistake getting sidetracked into support, it's difficult to break out of. Development is where the money is.

Eoin

It depends on what type of support you're doing, which the OP hasn't said yet.

strokemyclover

srsly78 wrote: »

OP you made a big mistake getting sidetracked into support, it's difficult to break out of. Development is where the money is.

Eoin wrote: »

It depends on what type of support you're doing, which the OP hasn't said yet.

I mentioned asp.net support earlier in the thread. It was the first job I came across after completing my degree. I worked in a software house and thought I could move into development in there at a later stage. That didn't appear to be the case then, due to medical reasons I had to leave the company.

I am looking for a similar role to what I had but in a larger company with the opportunity to move into development at a later stage. As I said, there just didn't seem to be the chance in my last job - they went outside the company each time a new development position came about which was maybe twice in my 5+ years there.

BostonB

I have to agree with srsly78. Its a trap I keep failing into myself. Do any support at all, and its very difficult to get out of it. If a development opportunity comes up, it rarely goes to the support guy. Better to take the lowliest development position. I wish I'd followed that advise myself.

Eoin

strokemyclover wrote: »

I mentioned asp.net support earlier in the thread. It was the first job I came across after completing my degree. I worked in a software house and thought I could move into development in there at a later stage. That didn't appear to be the case then, due to medical reasons I had to leave the company.

I am looking for a similar role to what I had but in a larger company with the opportunity to move into development at a later stage. As I said, there just didn't seem to be the chance in my last job - they went outside the company each time a new development position came about which was maybe twice in my 5+ years there.

OK - a lot of people have some dev skills in various areas of support (I had some knowledge of web dev when I was doing sysadmin stuff years ago), so it wasn't clear that you supported .net applications.

If you're in Dublin and looking for a software support role, drop me a PM.

Support isn't necessarily a dead end at all though. Apart from the obvious progression to service & support management, it can also lead into consultancy / professional services type work. It depends on the company.

zweton

guess support side aint too bad if you manage to get a network/sys admin role.

Yumejin

Horses for Courses!

In my experience I agree with Eoin, outsourcing to India can be a false economy. Many of my friends who have been involved with outsourcing software development work have been less than satisfied with the results. Like anything I suppose its “horses for courses”…some workloads that are easy to automate lend themselves well to outsourcing to India but software development by its very nature is in a constant state of flux, whether this is based on shifts in market trends on the Global Economy or Legislative amendments or just simply a change of heart on the part of the major stakeholder.

Yumejin

strokemyclover wrote: »

I seen a jobs announcement for a finance house in Tralee on the news earlier in the week. They cited the main reason for moving their IT development jobs from India to Ireland was the loyalty of Irish workers in comparison to India's workers who move from job to job to progress their careers after short terms. The company wanted to keep (IT and product) knowledge provided to workers in-house for longer.

Having had to look for a job over the past few months and looking at friends' situations too I don't think the Irish IT workforce is a million miles away from the situation in India to be honest. I know there are people who settle into a job and get sufficient opportunities to progress in the jobs they stay in for 5+ years. Then again, I know people who would stay the course for less than 5 years before deciding to move on to a better situation to further their careers/get extra money.

I realise the situation in India is probably more drastic than it is here in terms of time before trying to move to a better situation. I would like to get an idea of the IT market out there at the moment to see how many are out of work looking for jobs in comparison to those in work actively looking for other opportunities. Don't worry, I'm not an agency rep or reporter, I'm just out of work and desperate for a job!

I am currently out of work 8 months now at this stage, actively looking for 7 months. I have had 18+ interviews in that time. I am fully qualified, have over 5 years IT experience in my chosen field, there are tonnes of jobs in my field out there but I always seem to get down to a last 2 or 3 situation when interviewing and get pipped at the final decision. My impression from the feedback received is that I'm getting pipped by those who are coming from a job. I had to leave my previous position for medical reasons and left on great terms with fantastic references.

Poll to follow

I have recently completed a Masters Degree in Software and Information Systems(1st class) and have qualified as a Trainer since I finished my degree but the feedback I have been getting when I apply for jobs in Software Development is that Employers are more interested in people with recent experience i.e. people who are working.

I have looked at internships but the Governments Internship Programme does not seem to be delivering all that was promised…as many graduates do not qualify for social welfare. Instead they work for free and still have to cover travelling expenses etc… who can afford this over a 6-9 month period. As a mature student with a family I would find this hard to sustain.:(

Yumejin

Secondly - Capability, Western tech's as a whole have far superior problem solving skills, stress management and can handle flexibility much better than our Asian counterparts. This is not meant to be racist in anyway but a reality for anyone doing business with low cost locations. Due to this pressure once a low cost tech hits their limit they will move to a new role where in Ireland it is seen as a positive challenge.

Consequently, because of its inherently creative nature, outsourcing software development in this way, by all accounts, incurs huge overheads!

krd

krissovo wrote: »

Thirdly - Productivity - If it takes 20 tech's in Ireland to perform a service it takes 25 in our low cost locations. Our low cost locations also need additional management overhead to keep them focused on projects. Given the extra manpower requirement attrition will always be higher.

At the most extreme. A company I worked for years ago. 20 tech workers in Dublin were more productive in than over 200 tech workers, in a certain Asian country.

Of course that wasn't the original management plan.

They thought they could hire a huge number of workers for a pittance, in this Asian country. They could. But. The workers that you could hire for a pittance there, couldn't speak English and didn't know that much about computers. The local cowboys screwed them out of millions.

The savings in shipping to Asian aren't always as phenomenal as they seem - they can be really good in some instances. But you have to pay the local cowboys - and there are cultural problems - all the low hanging fruit has been picked.

krd

BostonB wrote: »

I have to agree with srsly78. Its a trap I keep failing into myself. Do any support at all, and its very difficult to get out of it. If a development opportunity comes up, it rarely goes to the support guy. Better to take the lowliest development position. I wish I'd followed that advise myself.

Yep, that is true.

And if you end up in the dirty end of support, it's as hard as escaping Alcatraz.

Though something similar can happen with test. Test is an ugly business. And the test guys may have plenty of experience and want to get into dev - but their paths can be blocked. It can be infuriating to watch more junior people get into Dev, with little or no experience, while you're stuck in Test hell.

zweton

What is the best way to get out of support? I have been doing it a year but would really like to get out of it asap. I guess certs would be a good start, something like mcitp?

Eoin

zweton wrote: »

What is the best way to get out of support? I have been doing it a year but would really like to get out of it asap. I guess certs would be a good start, something like mcitp?

Do you want to move from desktop support into sysadmin/network admin type work?

Not all tech support roles are dead end entry level jobs by any means. And the same goes especially for QA.

zweton

Yes, is there a "best" route? Are you in that area yourself eoin?

Eoin

I used to be - I was doing desktop / NT support and was trying to go down the UNIX sysadmin route at the time. As it happens, I did end up in dev, but not really by choice - it just happened due to re-orgs in my company at the time of the dotcom crash in 2000/2001.

I'm really out of touch with that side of things though, so I don't know if certifications are the best way to go. MCSE was seen as being a good set of certs to get back then, don't know if that's still the case.

An awful lot depends on your company - I was lucky in that we had a small tech support team with a few different technology stacks, so they let me do some basic UNIX admin stuff so I could skill up and cover for the usual UNIX admin. Big companies can be good for that as well as there might be projects you can work on to help progress - or they can be really bad, as they have dedicated staff for that stuff. It varies a lot.

BostonB

In the past my route out has always just to go build something useful and/or needed usually on my own time. From then on you usually get asked to do similar things, or expand what you'd done.

mickman

irish IT people are leagues and leagues ahead of their Indian counterparts - fact.

Japanese company announced the other day that they are leaving india and moving to ireland

read this morning that because of the rise in labour costs in china - manufacturers can now manufacture in the US for the same costs because of higher productivity - better transport links etc.

The big move to the east is coming to an end in my opinion - of course asia will grow rapidly but the idea that they will take all our good jobs is nonsense

_Kaiser_

I started off with one of the American multinationals back in 1997 on the phones doing helpdesk support. Worked my way up through Level 2, Deskside, then when the organisation changed around 2000 moved into the pre-sales side (big mistake!) doing configuration support and (briefly) web shop support

Finally left after 7.5 years as I'd become stuck in a rut and did a year with another American multinational to get some Wintel server experience - enterprise support really.

Would probably have stayed there too and worked up, but the opportunity came up to be the IT Administrator/Manager for a public sector organisation where I was responsible for everything - tendering/procurement, infrastructure, server/client installation and support, helpdesk management (after I'd set one up that is ), training of staff, leading a team of 2 deskside guys and so on. Was looking after 20 sites and 5000 users overall - through both on and offsite support.

Grew it from (as the CEO described it) "a green field site" to one which became the model for other organisations in the same sector and drew the interest of players like Microsoft and DELL who saw the opportunity to partner with us and sell the new technology (at that point Server 2008 and Hyper-V) into the sector.

I'd still be there were I not made redundant after 4.5 years because of the recruitment moratorium In fairness they appealed it twice to no avail and I was eventually let go late in 2009.

Was out of work for a year despite my best efforts to find something - a soul-destroying process of having time wasted and hopes raised, or to get to the last stage of an interview and be beaten by someone just a "little bit better".. partly because I've spent my career working and learning by doing not studying - mostly because I was so busy in my last role that I often got home at 6 and did another 3/4 hours from home.

Still, I put the time to use and got familiar with some of the things I'd never had a chance to delve into properly (like Hyper-V, Server 2008 R2 etc) but it was hard going to be honest given the ongoing unemployment situation and the stress and worry that brings.

Anyway, a year to the week since I was made redundant, I finally got a call from a company I'd interviewed with for a IT team lead role (unsuccessfully - again got to the last stage) and was asked if I'd be interested in helping them out with some projects for 6 months. Turned into another Deskside role which (to be honest) I'm finding frustrating given I'd worked up from that years ago and there's no will to change anything - despite the advantages and savings even simple changes would make both to the users and the IT department.

So still looking as the contract is up (again) soon, but really trying to get back into the "back office" end of my last role (ideally something like a technical team lead) but it's very tough going as I'm either "overqualified" or don't have enough paper qualifications or exposure to things that "traditionally" used to be seperate roles (like Linux, development and so on)

krd

Eoin wrote: »

Not all tech support roles are dead end entry level jobs by any means.

No, they're not - not always. Landing one of the better paid ones is tricky. And they can really vary, in going from being a piece of cake to extremely stressful. like second or third level - if you're doing emails and call backs. As long as there isn't messing going on, it can be reasonably stress free.

But if there's messing, it can be really terrible. If you're on a tech support team, and you're working with people who are taking the piss, or just awful. It really can come back on you. I've worked along side people, who tell everyone who calls in, that their problem is being fix and everything will be fine in 30 minutes - and then they do nothing.

You really need to be working with good people, and have control over your stuff.

You can end up being labelled by recruiters as a "customer service rep"

And the same goes especially for QA.

I prefer QA to tech support.

But, if it's run really badly, you can have developers screaming at you for finding bugs in their code. And going into the bug database and removing your entries.

But what I found. When I finished up in college, and hadn't really done anything. I would get calls to all kinds of jobs - everything from electronic engineering to development roles. This is where my career went horribly wrong - my first serious job offer, was a development role - they sent me the offer letter - offered me the job over the phone - I had sent my acceptance letter - we talked - they told me to wait for the call for the start date - they kept me hanging on for months (it was worth hanging on for, the pay package was incredible0 - The HR had changed their minds but they were too ****ty to tell me.

Then I got a job in QA - and then, every job I would apply for, I would be ignored unless it was QA. And this was really terrible, as the whole dot com thing was kicking in, and companies were hiring people with no tech experience or background to train as developers in all kinds of things - but I could only get called to QA interviews.


And my QA manager (he eventually got fired - his chums got him a QA management job elsewhere - he's still a disaster - the only qualification the guy has is a leaving cert) every company I would apply for would call him looking for a reference. Even though he wasn't on my CV. He was giving me malicious references - which he thought were funny and he would boast to people about it. I had really good references from other managers I had been working for but they kept calling him. He had some crazy personal vendetta against me. He was doing this to a few people. He was even telling people to put him on their CV as a reference, and then when someone called he'd give a bad reference. Even when people caught him at it there was little they could do.

And I couldn't get another job until he got fired (he wrecked the company - they took his computer off him, put him in a small cupboard office with just a phone and gave him three months to find a job).

The dot com bubble burst.

And I grabbed the first job I could. Which was in Tech support. And then, I stopped being called to QA interviews. And would only be offered "customer service". And really everything went to hell from there.

I know lots of people who work in tech support. I know quite a few people, who had management positions, or jobs as developers, or well paid jobs admining UNIX etc But for a lot of them, it's the same story, they took one step into tech support and they're finding it virtually impossible to get out of it.

I think it's tougher now than ever. Development is very ageist (25 is considered middle-aged). There isn't anything near the number or kind of companies there was before the dot com collapse. A lot of stuff we used to do here has moved to Eastern Europe. A company I used to work for used to employ over 50 developers in Dublin. Now they have about 10 people here and all the coding is done in India.

_Kaiser_

krd wrote: »

The dot com bubble burst.

And I grabbed the first job I could. Which was in Tech support. And then, I stopped being called to QA interviews. And would only be offered "customer service". And really everything went to hell from there.

I know lots of people who work in tech support. I know quite a few people, who had management positions, or jobs as developers, or well paid jobs admining UNIX etc But for a lot of them, it's the same story, they took one step into tech support and they're finding it virtually impossible to get out of it.

I think it's tougher now than ever. Development is very ageist (25 is considered middle-aged). There isn't anything near the number or kind of companies there was before the dot com collapse. A lot of stuff we used to do here has moved to Eastern Europe. A company I used to work for used to employ over 50 developers in Dublin. Now they have about 10 people here and all the coding is done in India.

I'd have to agree - Support (once you're in it) is VERY hard to break back out of.

As I said above, and a bit like yourself, when I was made redundant from my last role I was applying for everything I could and when I accepted this job, I knew it was a step backwards (although it wasn't SUPPOSED to be as far back as it's turned out to be), would involve a daily commute of 3 hours (and the expense of running my car into the ground with the mileage I'm doing), but I figured hey, it's better than the alternative and it's easier to get a job when you're in one....

Not so... the only jobs I'm being contacted about now are similar IT Admin/Deskside roles, generally for 5-10k less than I was on previously but with responsibilities for what used to be 2/3 seperate roles - plus I'm having to compete with people 15 years younger with shiny new qualifications who CAN work for that kind of money (just as I could have when I started off, sharing a house with a few lads with no debts etc).

So I'm "overqualified" (apparently) and yet still can't get the more senior roles despite doing it every day for 4 and a half years, so unless I resign myself to doing a job I did 6/7 years ago or can find the time and money to put myself through some sort of ITIL-type course (because on a fixed-term contract you don't qualify for training - even though these companies advertise it as a perk of working for them), then I can't see a way out either.