Dublin quays

Bigcheeze

Driving down the South Quays this morning and there was a cyclist in the right hand lane (with no possible right turn for the next few hundred metres). All the cars building up behind him were moving in to the left lane to undertake him. I assumed he just felt safer out there. Is it legal? (the cycling and the undertaking)

Lumen

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Driving down the South Quays this morning and there was a cyclist in the right hand lane (with no possible right turn for the next few hundred metres). All the cars building up behind him were moving in to the left lane to undertake him. I assumed he just felt safer out there. Is it legal? (the cycling and the undertaking)

Undertaking is illegal, although slow moving traffic is a grey area.

Not keeping left is illegal.

Bigcheeze

Lumen wrote: »

No, undertaking is not legal.

I knew someone would jump on that part of the question. And the cycling ?

Bigcheeze

Lumen wrote: »

slow moving traffic is a grey area.

He was pretty slow alright. On a DB.

seamus

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I knew someone would jump on that part of the question. And the cycling ?

Impossible to say without context really.

Depending on the traffic conditions, it can sometimes be appropriate to move into the right-hand lane a little earlier than necessary. Usually this is when the traffic is moving but heavy, and you get an appropriate gap. This means that you change lanes without putting yourself in danger and without unneccesarily impeding anyone else.

Obviously speed is an issue too. Traffic on the quays can move quite quickly, it would not be appropriate for a very slow-moving cyclist to enter the right-hand lane early.

07Lapierre

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Driving down the South Quays this morning and there was a cyclist in the right hand lane (with no possible right turn for the next few hundred metres). All the cars building up behind him were moving in to the left lane to undertake him. I assumed he just felt safer out there. Is it legal? (the cycling and the undertaking)

I'd say the cyclist is wrong in this situation. Your supposed to keep LEFT unless turning right. Is it Legal? that I'm not sure about,as the quays are one way. But its certainly inconsiderate, as the cyclist is forcing the other road users to pass him/her on the left.

Lumen

Bigcheeze wrote: »

He was pretty slow alright. On a DB.

My general view on undertaking is that (a) people should keep left, particularly the MLMs on motorways who ought to be lynched from the overpasses (b) if there were sufficient lynchings there would be no need to undertake, (c) undertaking is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right.

As I driver I would tend to favour either being patient or leaning on the horn screaming obscenities.

That said there are cases for staying right on a bike, where you would otherwise need to cross several lanes of fast moving traffic before turning right. Nassau St in Dublin is a good example.

monument

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Driving down the South Quays this morning and there was a cyclist in the right hand lane (with no possible right turn for the next few hundred metres). All the cars building up behind him were moving in to the left lane to undertake him. I assumed he just felt safer out there. Is it legal? (the cycling and the undertaking)

It depends.

In a lot of cases you need to move into the right lane a good bit in advance of the turn as it's hard and sometimes near impossible to cross two or three lanes of traffic at the turn.

The prime example on the south quays is Victoria Quay (near Guinness) but also applies to other right turns.

More designed "box turns" would help but these would also slow traffic flow.

droidus

I usually stay in the right hand lane for all of Ormond quay so I can take a right at Capel street. Its far safer than crossing two lanes of traffic at speed.

Cookie_Monster

surely he has as much right as any other road user to be in that right lane at that point. either he's turning right ahead or he shouldn't be there at all, in which case none of the cars should be either technically...

Jawgap

I think a more substantial question would be "is it safe?"

Given the delivery trucks and buses that tend to line part of the South Quays, combined with traffic being fed in from various side streets, staying right could be about self-preservation. Better that, than being wrapped around the axles of some large vehicle with the satisfaction of knowing at least you were cycling legally and not inconveniencing motorists.

check_six

Lumen wrote: »

That said there are cases for staying right on a bike, where you would otherwise need to cross several lanes of fast moving traffic before turning right. Nassau St in Dublin is a good example.

Is this the same Nassau St with the 30kph limit? You need a new training regime!;)


Having said that, it is a good example of somewhere you need to keep to the right hand side. I would rarely trouble the left hand lane on that stretch of road myself.

Dermot Illogical

I always cycle in the RH lane on the South Quays (City Quay) because I'm turning up towards Pearse Station. It's safer than taking my chances crossing lanes when I need to turn.
However, I'm generally travelling in excess of the 30kph limit that applies to traffic on that stretch. I wouldn't be comfortable out there if I wasn't hockeying it tbh.
Sitting out there at a snail's pace is a bit ignorant imho, and potentially dangerous.

Wishbone Ash

Was the cyclist attempting to cross over to the left lane? in some junctions around Dublin, traffic is 'fed' into the right lane. It can be very difficult then for a cyclist to get over to the left lane. (The N3 at Blanchardstown inbound comes to mind).

morana

I go down Pease st to Tara Street and onto North Strand and basically you have to be in the right hand lane in tara street or in the middle! going across Beresford place you have to cross to the left but its a dangerous one.

I go where I feel its the safest

Bigcheeze

He didn't seem to be attempting to cross as he was staying over to the right.

It was down past the hapenny bridge not near to any junction.

I drive there every morning and never see cyclists on the right. A lot of guys can keep up with traffic but those DB's aren't built for speed.

Dord

droidus wrote: »

I usually stay in the right hand lane for all of Ormond quay so I can take a right at Capel street. Its far safer than crossing two lanes of traffic at speed.

+1 It's a dodgy one alright. If you stay in the left then you've no chance once you get to Capel Street. I'd usually move to the right and give it some welly up the quay. :pac:

Lusk Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

MLMs

Eh?

Nice point though. I agree. The blinkers are on for so many in the (alleged) fast/overtaking lane :mad:

cython

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Eh?

Nice point though. I agree. The blinkers are on for so many in the (alleged) fast/overtaking lane :mad:

Middle Lane Morons, I presume

galwaycyclist

I do this on Merchants Road in Galway. Usually because I intend taking a right turn that is closed to motor traffic. It is technically legal for other (motor) traffic to pass me on the left if I am turning right and they aren't. It is much less hassle to switch into the right hand lane from the top of the road rather than try to negotiate my way accross lanes of following,and by now fast moving, traffic half way down.

dermiek

It is also legal to overtake on the left if traffic in right hand lane is moving slower. Also, AFAIK, must check though, you are permitted by law to cycle in both lanes, but common sense should prevail at times.
I don't blame the cyclist for staying in r.h.lane, but I wouldn't have the nerve t.b.h.
Small cahunas.

Cookie_Monster

dermiek wrote: »

It is also legal to overtake on the left if traffic in right hand lane is moving slower. Also, AFAIK, must check though, you are permitted by law to cycle in both lanes, but common sense should prevail at times.

That law expressly states in slow moving traffic so it's not something you can do normally, only in traffic.

p

I can understand people worrying about crossing multiple lanes of traffic. To me, this is the perfect candidate for a 'box turn'. May take a few seconds longer, but i'd rather than on the quays.


(this is reverse for right hand side roads)

Cookie_Monster

p wrote: »

I can understand people worrying about crossing multiple lanes of traffic. To me, this is the perfect candidate for a 'box turn'. May take a few seconds longer, but i'd rather than on the quays
(this is reverse for right hand side roads)

that's stupid though, you are giving up your right of way to go directly around the turn and becoming a hazard for those going straight on.

Just cross the lane in advance and let the people behind you worry about themselves.

tomasrojo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's stupid though, you are giving up your right of way to go directly around the turn and becoming a hazard for those going straight on.

Just cross the lane in advance and let the people behind you worry about themselves.

We had a discussion of these turns before.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694898

I agree they're worth keeping in mind, but personally I can only think of one right turn on my usual routes where I'd use it.

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

p wrote: »

I can understand people worrying about crossing multiple lanes of traffic. To me, this is the perfect candidate for a 'box turn'. May take a few seconds longer, but i'd rather than on the quays
(this is reverse for right hand side roads)

that's stupid though, you are giving up your right of way to go directly around the turn and becoming a hazard for those going straight on.

Just cross the lane in advance and let the people behind you worry about themselves.

It's not stupid, not everybody wants to or even is able to switch lanes in advance and cycle on while holding a load of traffic up behind them.

The image isn't great but if done right, or far better designed right, you're not "becoming a hazard".

It's a common design in Germany and a common way of cycling even without design features in Denmark. But at the same time I would not advise anybody to do it here without knowing the junction given possible conflicts.

Often, given that you have to slow or stop sometimes to cross lanes, the box turn can turn out to add very few extra seconds, and no time difference in some cases.

There's a designed "box turn" planned for Dublin's quays on the planned new bridge (due regardless of BXD getting the green light)... See: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showthread.php?t=2056384039

galwaycyclist

The box turn or go left to turn right is a good trick to have up your sleeve - particulary for traffic signals where the right turn is banned.

Just to clarify thuough in Denmark AFAIK this is a legal requirement for cyclists they arent supposed to do direct right ("left") turns. A law I believe many ignore in some situations.

Lumen

p wrote: »

(this is reverse for right hand side roads)

cdaly_

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Just to clarify thuough in Denmark AFAIK this is a legal requirement for cyclists they arent supposed to do direct right ("left") turns. A law I believe many ignore in some situations.

But I bet they have dedicated traffic signals and sensors to assist in the manoeuvre though...

BostonB

You see some in the right lane quite a lot on the quays.

p

cdaly_ wrote: »

But I bet they have dedicated traffic signals and sensors to assist in the manoeuvre though...

Actually, not really. It's just the normal flow of traffic. Cross the junction, stop at the corner, turn bike 90 degrees. Then just wait for the other lights to change. Never ever felt like a delay when I was there though, at least on the larger roads. Smaller streets without dedicated cycle lanes you obviously don't do it.

Works best when you have right angled junctions, but still, it's a useful manoeuvre to have in the bag when you need it. I'd especially consider showing it to inexperienced cyclists who were intimidated by crossing 2 lanes of traffic on places like the Quays.

tomasrojo

Probably a good manoeuvre when you're hauling a trailer too, if traffic is a bit fast-moving.

monument

p wrote: »

Actually, not really. It's just the normal flow of traffic. Cross the junction, stop at the corner, turn bike 90 degrees. Then just wait for the other lights to change. Never ever felt like a delay when I was there though, at least on the larger roads. Smaller streets without dedicated cycle lanes you obviously don't do it.

Works best when you have right angled junctions, but still, it's a useful manoeuvre to have in the bag when you need it. I'd especially consider showing it to inexperienced cyclists who were intimidated by crossing 2 lanes of traffic on places like the Quays.

Yes, but doesn't the normal flow on larger roads in Copenhagen often more and more include cyclists first and less filter traffic lights than in Dublin? I'm less sure about the latter part on filter lights.

Their ped crossing seem to be set back more too while ours are more often right up on the junction a lot of the time, but not always. There's a few places when traffic is heavy but moving that I would do a box turn but don't like to break the ped crossing line.

p

monument wrote: »

Yes, but doesn't the normal flow on larger roads in Copenhagen often more and more include cyclists first and less filter traffic lights than in Dublin? I'm less sure about the latter part on filter lights.

Are you referring to the Green Wave concept? That's really only on one or two runs in the city, where there's usually a parallel road that's more suitable for cars.

monument wrote: »

Their ped crossing seem to be set back more too while ours are more often right up on the junction a lot of the time, but not always. There's a few places when traffic is heavy but moving that I would do a box turn but don't like to break the ped crossing line.

Hrmmm... I'm not sure about that, just looking at google street view I can't tell. Thinking about it, people often actually end up stopping behind the zebra crossing, where they would be anyway if they were coming along the other road. But yea, it is generally problem though that planners need to be aware of.

tomasrojo

There's also a slight problem here of a potential "shoal"* of cyclists extending into the junction at the point where you would want to stop, turn and wait. What is the etiquette for joining this queue of stop-line defiers?

*http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2009/05/indignity-of-commuting-by-bicycle_12.html

As far as I know, I am the only cyclist in New York who does not observe this rule, because while I'm quite happy to queue up behind somebody at an intersection, I have never, ever had somebody stop behind me. If you're waiting, someone will pull up ahead of you. If a third person comes, they'll roll ahead and stop in front of the second person. On a busy day, this accumulation results in sort of a shoal of cyclists which juts out into the middle of the street like a sandbar of idiocy.