Does Kidney hold grudges against certain players?

vetinari

Firstly, I'm an avid Munster fan and think Kidney is an excellent coach.

However, I'd have to say that Kidney has for want of a better word grudges against certain players.

The most obvious one is Mike Ross. Supposedly, Kidney didn't think him even good enough for a professional contract at Munster. That in of itself isn't a grudge. However, refusing to pick him after he had established himself in the premiership was. He persisted with Buckley for far far too long. You get the feeling he is only in the team now out of severe necessity.

Secondly, I'm still puzzled by the dropping of Reddan. These arguments that Murray provides better defensive cover when O Gara starts are hard to fathom. Stringer and O Gara made how many starts together. Its not as if Reddan was playing bad.

I thought he was playing well. How else would you describe losing your place to a kid starting his what second international match at world cup? I think Murray has played well and looks like he will be a great player. I still wouldn't start him.

you could make an argument that Kidney holds a grudge against Cullen but I think it's less clear cut.

Still though, for such an excellent coach, he seems to have quite the vindictive streak.

CatFromHue

He only holds grudges against ugly players and picks his team mainly on looks.

Thats why Murray and ROG were picked ahead of Sexton and Reddan, they're dreamy.

He also loves a bad boy thats why Earls got picked ahead of Andrew "goody two shoes" Trimble.

Simple really.

tolosenc

Fionn Carr supposedly did his missus, so I guess that's fair enough!

durkadurka

Jamie hagan qassaid to be involved In a spit roast situation too

CatFromHue

He doesn't pick Cullen cos he's not a fan of Wallace and Gromit.

totallegend

There is definitely something in the reddan issue. Kidney stuck with TOL long after he should have been given the bullet then when he finally dropped him, he more or less went straight to Murray. Go back further, he was first choice in 2008 six nations (not a successful campaign) but was nowhere the following year after Kidney took over. I don't know if it's a grudge but Kidney has clearly never rated him.

The Trimble issue is more of a preference for Earls than victimising Trimble I think.

In relation to Ross, it's easy to forget that he spent a season on the bench at Leinster making little impact, but by Autumn 2010 it was clear he was up to standard yet Kidney persisted with Buckley and Hayes who were not.

Criticising Kidney won't be flavour of the month right now though...

Fishooks12

vetinari wrote: »

Firstly, I'm an avid Munster fan and think Kidney is an excellent coach.

However, I'd have to say that Kidney has for want of a better word grudges against certain players.

The most obvious one is Mike Ross. Supposedly, Kidney didn't think him even good enough for a professional contract at Munster. That in of itself isn't a grudge. However, refusing to pick him after he had established himself in the premiership was. He persisted with Buckley for far far too long. You get the feeling he is only in the team now out of severe necessity.

Secondly, I'm still puzzled by the dropping of Reddan. These arguments that Murray provides better defensive cover when O Gara starts are hard to fathom. Stringer and O Gara made how many starts together. Its not as if Reddan was playing bad.

I thought he was playing well. How else would you describe losing your place to a kid starting his what second international match at world cup? I think Murray has played well and looks like he will be a great player. I still wouldn't start him.

you could make an argument that Kidney holds a grudge against Cullen but I think it's less clear cut.

Still though, for such an excellent coach, he seems to have quite the vindictive streak.

How could he have held a grudge against Ross? Ross only started showing international potential towards his second season at Leinster

Cullen would be starting if it weren't for the fact that the best Irish 2nd row partnership in history is ahead of him, plus he got a chance in the warm-up games when DOC was out of form and didn't take it.

Reddan was dropped purely because Kidney needed the physicality of Murray, nothing personal at all and not comparable to the ROG situation given they play in different positions

Plus the wonderful atmosphere in the camp should be enough evidence that all the players in the squad respect DK.

He holds no grudges, he merely picks the best team to do the job and has displayed a masterful awareness of how to break down different teams

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

There is definitely something in the reddan issue. Kidney stuck with TOL long after he should have been given the bullet then when he finally dropped him, he more or less went straight to Murray. Go back further, he was first choice in 2008 six nations (not a successful campaign) but was nowhere the following year after Kidney took over. I don't know if it's a grudge but Kidney has clearly never rated him.

The Trimble issue is more of a preference for Earls than victimising Trimble I think.

In relation to Ross, it's easy to forget that he spent a season on the bench at Leinster making little impact, but by Autumn 2010 it was clear he was up to standard yet Kidney persisted with Buckley and Hayes who were not.

Criticising Kidney won't be flavour of the month right now though...

The Reddan issue might be down to the fact that Reddan doesn't offer much threat in the loose and has defensive frailties. TOL on form was better so it was only right that Kindey gave him time to regain his form

WeeBushy

Kidney is generally slow to make changes and (on the Ross point) favours players based in Ireland. Does he hold grudges? No, I don't think so, but he is slow to change his mind. For the better and the worse.

It's a lot easier than you think. He rates the players that he knows and has worked with more than those he doesn't.

It's clearly a poor trait to have in his position, but them's the breaks.

jk86

WeeBushy wrote: »

Kidney is generally slow to make changes and (on the Ross point) favours players based in Ireland. Does he hold grudges? No, I don't think so, but he is slow to change his mind. For the better and the worse.

Yup. People never think of the good that comes of it. For instance, because of his persistence with certain players, going into the quarters we now have D'arcy in good form. I'd much rather that than have P Wallace or McFadden playing against Wales and D'arcy on the bench.

tolosenc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

How could he have held a grudge against Ross? Ross only started showing international potential towards his second season at Leinster

Cullen would be starting if it weren't for the fact that the best Irish 2nd row partnership in history is ahead of him, plus he got a chance in the warm-up games when DOC was out of form and didn't take it.

Reddan was dropped purely because Kidney needed the physicality of Murray, nothing personal at all and not comparable to the ROG situation given they play in different positions.

Well, for Ross, he was in at least one team of the year during his time in the Premiership.

Saying that Cullen didn't take his chance is subjective. He was better than DOC in the game in Bordeaux.

I don't think Murray offers substantially more physicality than Reddan.

CatFromHue

vetinari wrote: »

The most obvious one is Mike Ross. Supposedly, Kidney didn't think him even good enough for a professional contract at Munster. That in of itself isn't a grudge. However, refusing to pick him after he had established himself in the premiership was. He persisted with Buckley for far far too long. You get the feeling he is only in the team now out of severe necessity.

Secondly, I'm still puzzled by the dropping of Reddan. These arguments that Murray provides better defensive cover when O Gara starts are hard to fathom.

Oh right so we're going with this.

The Ross issue isn't as straight forward as you say. While he was on the English Premiership team of the season that was purely because of his scrummaging. The English Premiership teams of the seasons tend not to include international players. Jackman in his book wrote that all Harlequinns wanted from Ross was him to scrum and that's it. He had no game in the loose.

When he moved to Leinster he wasn't first choice and struggled to get game time. This is the end of the 09/10 season I'm talking about. Around this time Buckley went on the tour to Nz and Oz and played very very well. He scrumed well, was good about the park and actually helped create a try or two against the Kiwi's. He basically fulfilled his potential on that tour.

At the start of the 10/11 season Buckley was playing well for Munster and was getting the Heineken cup starting position from Hayes. He had a great game against Toulon in Thomond if I remember right. He was still fulfilling his potential.

Mike Ross at this stage had become Leinsters first choice, this was helped by Van der Linde leaving and Stan Wrights injury.

Buckley performed poorly against South Africa and then got injured. When he came back from injury he struggled for form. Ross though was continuing his good form for Leinster and then became Ireland's first choice for the 6 Nations.

If Kidney held a grudge against Ross well so did Cheika. In my opinion it's the revisionist and easy answer to say Kidney was ignoring Ross. He wasn't. Buckley was playing well, Ross wasn't playing. Then Buckley wasn't playing well and Ross got the Ireland jersey cos he was.

Reddan and Murray is a different animal. Murray had a great end of season for Munster last season and did well against Reddan both times they played. Murray and Reddan are still fighting it out for the Ireland jersey similar to ROG and Sexton. I don't think either of them would be assured of their place in the first 15.

padser

CatFromHue wrote: »

If Kidney held a grudge against Ross well so did Cheika. In my opinion it's the revisionist and easy answer to say Kidney was ignoring Ross.

Kidney ignored Ross to the point that he played a 37 year old John Hayes ahead of him during the Autumn internationals while Ross was first choice at Leinster and Hayes was second choice at Munster behind a very substandard Buckley.

It's hardly the same thing as Cheika preferring a bang in form Stanley Wright the previous season.

Trying to make out that it is really weakens your argument.

CatFromHue

padser wrote: »

Kidney ignored Ross to the point that he played a 37 year old John Hayes ahead of him during the Autumn internationals while Ross was first choice at Leinster and Hayes was second choice at Munster behind a very substandard Buckley.

It's hardly the same thing as Cheika preferring a bang in form Stanley Wright the previous season.

Trying to make out that it is really weakens your argument.

No Buckley wasn't substandard at this time. He was in good form and deserved to be Ireland's first choice. Their weren't too many people giving out about his selection before the SA game. After it yes, not before. Buckley had become first choice for Munster in the Heineken cup and had a great game against Toulon.

At the start of 09/10 season Ross and Wright got nearly equal game time for Leinster with Mike Ross starting both the Heineken cup game against London Irish and Brive. As the season wore on though Cheika picked him less and less. He was given a shot and Cheika didn't think he was up to it.

@CatfromHue

@CatfromHue, the acid test to that whole reasoning/argument is the non-inclusion of Ross in the AIs (2010).

Before that, your argument makes sense. But approaching the AIs, it didn't take even the slightest passerby to notice that Ross could scrum and Buckley couldn't, that Ross could play 80 and Hayes couldn't. Ross got lucky to get involved after the AIs tbh.

marco_polo

I would say that like any coach, that for the most part it is a bias towards a certain type of player in a given position rather than a personal. Ball carrying 7s like Wally and SOB over Jennings, more mobile second rows such as DOC, Ryan over Cullen. A more physical scrum half like TOL and Murray over Reddan etc.

Ross I cannot really explain , I can only guess that management remained unconvinced about the non scrummaging aspects of his game, which to be fair would not have been completely without foundation a few seasons ago.

padser

CatFromHue wrote: »

padser wrote: »

Kidney ignored Ross to the point that he played a 37 year old John Hayes ahead of him during the Autumn internationals while Ross was first choice at Leinster and Hayes was second choice at Munster behind a very substandard Buckley.

It's hardly the same thing as Cheika preferring a bang in form Stanley Wright the previous season.

Trying to make out that it is really weakens your argument.

No Buckley wasn't substandard at this time. He was in good form and deserved to be Ireland's first choice. Their weren't too many people giving out about his selection before the SA game. After it yes, not before. Buckley had become first choice for Munster in the Heineken cup and had a great game against Toulon.

At the start of 09/10 season Ross and Wright got nearly equal game time for Leinster with Mike Ross starting both the Heineken cup game against London Irish and Brive. As the season wore on though Cheika picked him less and less. He was given a shot and Cheika didn't think he was up to it.

You managed to write an entire reply to my post which ignored the actual point. I'll re state it in one sentence so it's crystal clear.

"Playing a 37 year old John Hayes ahead of Mike Ross is a completley different thing to preferring Stanley Wright to Mike Ross"

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

@CatfromHue, the acid test to that whole reasoning/argument is the non-inclusion of Ross in the AIs (2010).

Before that, your argument makes sense. But approaching the AIs, it didn't take even the slightest passerby to notice that Ross could scrum and Buckley couldn't, that Ross could play 80 and Hayes couldn't. Ross got lucky to get involved after the AIs tbh.

Not really now with Buckley, as I said it really looked like he was turning out to be the prop that he had shown he might be at the start of that season and up to the SA game. He'd had a strong end of the previous season and a pretty good start to the new one. Obviously that didn't go very well in the SA game and then he got injured.

I can only imagine that Hayes was picked ahead of Ross because of his loose game, while limited that was. Ross came on a huge amount last season in his loose play. I do remember for Leinster against Edinburgh just before the AI's Ross taking a ball off a ruck into contact. He not only was stopped by one defender, but the defender then went to rip the ball off him in a pretty straight forward manner. That wouldn't happen now.

Yeah Kidney stuck with Hayes too long. It should be noted though that in the Samoa game where there was a lot of difficulty at scrum time that it was Court who was giving away most of the penalties. Not Hayes.

Zuffer

I don't think it's about grudges, but two or three weeks ago I would have agreed that Kidney does have certain biases which lead him to sub-optimal selection decisions. Plenty of other people have written what exactly they think his bias is, and I'm not going to repeat all of that.

However, in the games against Australia and Italy he's put out a team that has done exactly what has needed.
- Donnacha is smashing rucks, making tackles and taking lineout ball.
- Murray did very well against Italy.
- We haven't needed an 'out-and-out 7'.
- Earls is scoring tries.

I think a lot of the boards.ie received wisdom about certain players has been shown to be, if not wrong, then at least not as clear cut as we thought.

If I had been picking the team prior to the start of the tournament, I would have had Jennings, Cullen, and Trimble in the starting 15, and probably McFadden involved too. Murray would have been 3rd choice scrum half, and ROG would have been 2nd choice 10. Good thing it wasn't me picking the team.

CatFromHue

padser wrote: »

You managed to write an entire reply to my post which ignored the actual point. I'll re state it in one sentence so it's crystal clear.

"Playing a 37 year old John Hayes ahead of Mike Ross is a completley different thing to preferring Stanley Wright to Mike Ross"

I can only think it was to do with Hayes having a truck load of caps where he played well for Ireland whereas Ross was only really just establishing himself with Leinster. Also while Buckley had established himself as No.1 Hayes was still getting game time.

I think Kidney can be faulted for showing too much loyalty to some players, Hayes and TOL, but to say he has a grudge or an agenda against other players is rubbish.

[Jackass]

CatFromHue wrote: »

He only holds grudges against ugly players and picks his team mainly on looks.

Thats why Murray and ROG were picked ahead of Sexton and Reddan, they're dreamy.

He also loves a bad boy thats why Earls got picked ahead of Andrew "goody two shoes" Trimble.

Simple really.

Hence the reason a certain second row can't make the bench, even though in my book he should be pushing for the number 4 jersey. (O'Callaghan gives away an awful amount of penalties and the other person is arguably our best line out operator, particularly when spoiling opposition ball, a bafflingly little know quality to the general fan it seems, and kidney. - Can you guess who I'm referring to?)

JustinDee

[Jackass] wrote: »

Hence the reason a certain second row can't make the bench, even though in my book he should be pushing for the number 4 jersey. (O'Callaghan gives away an awful amount of penalties and the other person is arguably our best line out operator, particularly when spoiling opposition ball, a bafflingly little know quality to the general fan it seems, and kidney. - Can you guess who I'm referring to?)

How many penalties has O'Callaghan given away this RWC? A grand total of 2. One on Sunday on Italian maul and one against Australia for not entering ruck through gate.

Leo Cullen also gives away penalties. Its a tight-five's lot to give away penalties. Part of their role entails clearing out or tidying up rucks.
I'd say O'Callaghan has been tireless on-field and has done a great job so far. His tackle on Elsom in the Aussie match exemplifies the kind of form he's in.

robd

WeeBushy wrote: »

Kidney is generally slow to make changes and (on the Ross point) favours players based in Ireland. Does he hold grudges? No, I don't think so, but he is slow to change his mind. For the better and the worse.

The IRFU favours players based in Ireland. Such bias can be traced back through other coaches. Jordan Murphy is another one who never appeared much in an Irish shirt despite being an excellent and exciting attacking full back. Dempsey was always preferred. Guess he deserved that bit of luck that got him into the World Cup squad this year despite being in his twilight years.

totallegend

Zuffer wrote: »

I don't think it's about grudges, but two or three weeks ago I would have agreed that Kidney does have certain biases which lead him to sub-optimal selection decisions. Plenty of other people have written what exactly they think his bias is, and I'm not going to repeat all of that.

However, in the games against Australia and Italy he's put out a team that has done exactly what has needed.
- Donnacha is smashing rucks, making tackles and taking lineout ball.
- Murray did very well against Italy.
- We haven't needed an 'out-and-out 7'.
- Earls is scoring tries.

I think a lot of the boards.ie received wisdom about certain players has been shown to be, if not wrong, then at least not as clear cut as we thought.

If I had been picking the team prior to the start of the tournament, I would have had Jennings, Cullen, and Trimble in the starting 15, and probably McFadden involved too. Murray would have been 3rd choice scrum half, and ROG would have been 2nd choice 10. Good thing it wasn't me picking the team.

Yeah, fair point, but just because we win the matches doesn't make the selection immune from criticism. In fairness, we should have beaten that Italy team with any number of combinations but beating Wales will require a massive step up.

In relation to:
- Cullen/DOC, I think DOC is doing well but can't fathom why Cullen is not on the bench ahead of Leamy (since Ryan is there to cover 6 and Leamy is in brutal form).
- Murray had a poor first half, looked like nerves and inexperience; if the Ireland pack had not been so dominant in the second half it could have been different but fair play to him all the same.
- We haven't needed an out and out 7 because a) we haven't come up against a team with a top class "scavenger" (hate that word) and b) Heaslip has done a great job of winning turnover ball BUT Sam Warburton will be a massive test for our back row, a totally different challenge to what we've faced so far.
- Let's face it, Earls' tries were put on a plate for him by first Ferris and then Trimble, particularly the first one. Any of Earls/Trimble/McFadden would have scored them.

premierstone

JustinDee wrote: »

How many penalties has O'Callaghan given away this RWC? A grand total of 2. One on Sunday on Italian maul and one against Australia for not entering ruck through gate.

Leo Cullen also gives away penalties. Its a tight-five's lot to give away penalties. Part of their role entails clearing out or tidying up rucks.
I'd say O'Callaghan has been tireless on-field and has done a great job so far. His tackle on Elsom in the Aussie match exemplifies the kind of form he's in.

Exactly and the penalty he gave away Saturday actually saved a further 4 pts, both O'Callaghan and Darcy have answered their critics and are playing their best rugby for a couple of seasons, every selection that Kidney has made has been justified and yet we get the naysayers criticising him :rolleyes:

yimrsg

JustinDee wrote: »

How many penalties has O'Callaghan given away this RWC? A grand total of 2. One on Sunday on Italian maul and one against Australia for not entering ruck through gate.

You're totally wrong on the penalty count, DOC conceded 3 penalties against Italy alone. http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93497.html He's not as prone to coughing up penalties as he once was.

He could have been carded as Italy were so close to the line and had a hugely dominant maul. If people talk of the possibility of him saving us 4 points then you can also argue the side that he could have cost us another 4 points and possibly spent 10 minutes in the bin.

yimrsg

JustinDee wrote: »

You're quoting me stats from ESPN. They happen to be incorrect.

You quoted stats from where exactly?

JustinDee

yimrsg wrote: »

You're totally wrong on the penalty count, DOC conceded 3 penalties against Italy alone. http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93497.html He's not as prone to coughing up penalties as he once was.

He could have been carded as Italy were so close to the line and had a hugely dominant maul. If people talk of the possibility of him saving us 4 points then you can also argue the side that he could have cost us another 4 points and possibly spent 10 minutes in the bin.

You're quoting me stats from ESPN. They happen to be incorrect. For example, according to that list, Rory Best conceded no penalties.

GerM

robd wrote: »

The IRFU favours players based in Ireland. Such bias can be traced back through other coaches. Jordan Murphy is another one who never appeared much in an Irish shirt despite being an excellent and exciting attacking full back. Dempsey was always preferred. Guess he deserved that bit of luck that got him into the World Cup squad this year despite being in his twilight years.

Despite a couple of major injuries, Geordan Murphy has 74 caps for Ireland. He has been given plenty of opportunities, many ahead of Dempsey. The fact was his defensive work let him down one too many times and only around 2007 Dempsey was instilled as undoubted first choice. Unfortunately for Murphy, when Dempsey was put out to pasture, the next Lions test 15 was just making a name for himself.

If you're good enough, you'll be selected. Maggs, Easterby, Murphy and Bowe have had no trouble amassing caps. There's no player playing abroad not getting their game that is better than what we currently have in the squad.

yimrsg

JustinDee wrote: »

You're quoting me stats from ESPN. They happen to be incorrect. For example, according to that list, Rory Best conceded no penalties.

Whilst I agree that gathering stats is inaccurate, in my recollection DOC conceded 3 penalties against Italy which tallies with what is on the espn website. I've looked for other websites that show rugby stats and that's the only one I've found that shows penalties conceded. You say he conceded only 2 penalties so far, is that from your memory or is there another website that shows stats?

I'm not having a pop at you or looking for an argument just genuinely interested in another source for reading.

elguapo

So Kidney thinks some players are better than others, or more suited to play against certain teams, and picks his own team accordingly?

That's just petty, that is.

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

Despite a couple of major injuries, Geordan Murphy has 74 caps for Ireland. He has been given plenty of opportunities, many ahead of Dempsey. The fact was his defensive work let him down one too many times and only around 2007 Dempsey was instilled as undoubted first choice. Unfortunately for Murphy, when Dempsey was put out to pasture, the next Lions test 15 was just making a name for himself.

If you're good enough, you'll be selected. Maggs, Easterby, Murphy and Bowe have had no trouble amassing caps. There's no player playing abroad not getting their game that is better than what we currently have in the squad.

+1 on that Ger; the myth that Murphy was ignored or harshly treated is just that, a myth, and myth-propagator-in-chief is Gerry Thornley, every column he wrote in the lead-up to the squad announcement referred to Murphy's 'treatment' in 2007. The fact is that Dempsey was the better all-round full-back and was one of the few to emerge from the RWC2007 debacle with any credit. Murphy never really recaptured the attacking form he'd shown in a green jersey leading up to 2003 and as you say, his defensive calamities are well publicised. 72 caps (incl 55 starts) is not someone who has been ignored.

Easterby himself is often held up on boards.ie as an example of a "Coach's pet", (usually when someone is giving out that Quinlan didn't win more caps), but as you say, if you're good enough, you get picked and Easterby was our best #6 for a long period, no favouritism required.

What I would say is that if there is any grey area of selection between two players, the guy based in Ireland will get the benefit of the tight call so I think the guys in England do have to show more. Your final sentence is correct though, there is no-one in England (or elsewhere) who should feel aggrieved at not being in New Zealand. Downey has been mentioned as someone who should be in the squad, but I don't agree.

JustinDee

yimrsg wrote: »

Whilst I agree that gathering stats is inaccurate, in my recollection DOC conceded 3 penalties against Italy which tallies with what is on the espn website. I've looked for other websites that show rugby stats and that's the only one I've found that shows penalties conceded. You say he conceded only 2 penalties so far, is that from your memory or is there another website that shows stats?

I'm not having a pop at you or looking for an argument just genuinely interested in another source for reading.

I know you're not having a pop at me. Absolutely no worries.
I work in IRFU.

[Jackass]

JustinDee wrote: »

How many penalties has O'Callaghan given away this RWC? A grand total of 2. One on Sunday on Italian maul and one against Australia for not entering ruck through gate.

Leo Cullen also gives away penalties. Its a tight-five's lot to give away penalties. Part of their role entails clearing out or tidying up rucks.
I'd say O'Callaghan has been tireless on-field and has done a great job so far. His tackle on Elsom in the Aussie match exemplifies the kind of form he's in.

I think he gave two away in his own half against Italy alone. I'm more speaking from his overall career than anything, and more stating the case for Cullen to be on the bench as a specialist second row as apposed to Ryan who offers back-row cover too, I just think it's a case of master of one trade rather than jack of all. There's no doubt Cullen is underrated, particularly in the set-piece, where, as I said, I think he's amongst our best, particularly at disrupting opposition lineout, which he's done exceptionally well in every oppertunity he's gotten in green, but still can't seem to even make the bench.

But most of all, I just wanted to post that picture.

Podge_irl

I'd be absolutely astounded if there is a single coach in rugby at any level who doesn't have favourites.

Kidney is inherently conservative. He'll take a player he knows well over another player who he thinks is at a similar level. It's frustrating though there are plenty of examples of coaches that go way too far in the other direction (example in chief being Lievremont).

As regards Murphy - the man has 70 odd caps. That's not being ignored. It's almost about twice as many as he would have gotten if I'd been coach. He's a calamity waiting to happen.