Hard shoulders

corktina

do we really need mile after mile of tarmac shoulders? Wouldnt roads be cheaper without them? The UK seem to manage quite nicely without them

L1011

corktina wrote: »

do we really need mile after mile of tarmac shoulders? Wouldnt roads be cheaper without them? The UK seem to manage quite nicely without them

New build SC roads don't have any significant size of shoulder at all, its a legacy thing. Very useful for passing slow vehicles without crossing the line when people drive properly on them, however its too often that said slow vehicle gets trapped needing to move back over due to a junction and nobody overtaking notices...

corktina

they are resurfacing the N72 near me at present to a high standard including the shoulders. If they left the shoulders they'd be able to re-surface twice the length for the same (ish) cost. Surely we could manage to park on a bit of grotty tarmac or the grass if we break down?

L1011

corktina wrote: »

they are resurfacing the N72 near me at present to a high standard including the shoulders. If they left the shoulders they'd be able to re-surface twice the length for the same (ish) cost. Surely we could manage to park on a bit of grotty tarmac or the grass if we break down?

They always resurface the same road as is already there. Would be extremely awkward to handle the milling/paving otherwise.

munchkin_utd

corktina wrote: »

do we really need mile after mile of tarmac shoulders? Wouldnt roads be cheaper without them? The UK seem to manage quite nicely without them

Irish hard shoulders are a pet hate of mine.
If a road is going to be built so wide then the overtaking possibility should be automatic like in a 2+1 or 2+2 and not dependent on someone to temporarily use the hard shoulder as a driving lane.

And with that in mind, if the hard shoulder is being sold to us as a place where we can drive on, then all the sh1te of the day like scraps of lorry tyres and whatnot should be methodically cleaned from it regularly. I for one will never pull in to one for fear of what might be there to damage the car.

That said, it is a legacy thing from a time when there was far more agricultural traffic on the roads and as a tractor overtaking means it works wonderfully. Not to mention that a sturdy slow moving tractor doesn't have to worry about hitting junk or potholes in the hard shoulder!!

Danno

ALL roads should have hard margins, anyone walking, cycling or using horses on our roads that don't have HM's are running the gauntlet.

A pet hate of mine is hedgerows on top of the road's edge, and usually these are growing on top of huge mounds/banks of soil and rock. They are not just plain dangerous, but an awful eyesore also.

Danno

Just to add, I would support an above point where the paving does not need to be the same quality as the main lane's surface, but they should be smooth enough to accommodate agri machinery (especially farmers drawing horseboxes) and cyclists.

corktina

Danno wrote: »

ALL roads should have hard margins, anyone walking, cycling or using horses on our roads that don't have HM's are running the gauntlet.

A pet hate of mine is hedgerows on top of the road's edge, and usually these are growing on top of huge mounds/banks of soil and rock. They are not just plain dangerous, but an awful eyesore also.

ideally yes, but they manage without them on trunk roads in the UK with 10 times the traffic and we need money saving measures AND better quality driving lanes.

Danno

UK roads seem narrow IMHO and feel dangerous to drive when compared to our roads. Besides, if the Germans want us to be driving Audis, Mercs and Volkswaggens they better continue to make sure we have the roads to drive them on. The UK have, well, Vauxhalls!

corktina

But they arent narrow or dangerous Their B roads are better than our N roads AND busier! Better roads yes but full standard hard shoulders? I can't see why these are needed.


Oh btw...Vauxhalls arent German?

Oh
Please
Elucidate a
Little

hi5

We need all the space we can get in Ireland to get round the painfully slow 50kmh drivers,they dont have that problem in the UK.

corktina

hi5 wrote: »

We need all the space we can get in Ireland to get round the painfully slow 50kmh drivers,they dont have that problem in the UK.

but they are the ones who never pull over...Why? cos they never use their mirrors and thus dont realise the holdup they are causing. The ones who DO pull over are the swiched on ones who know how to drive but dont want to go full speed (which is fair enough)

Irish and Proud

I for one don't think it's a good idea to completely eliminate hardshoulders - IMO, they're a great asset in terms of road safety. I often travel the section of R132 (old N1) Southwards towards Balbriggan. In Co Meath, there are Hard Shoulders (as of now) where I can confidently do 80kph. When I cross over into Fingal, the Carriageway is about the same width but the Hard Shoulders disappear which was always the case. I usually tend to knock at least 10kph off my speed on the narrower section due to poor sightlines and alignment. The lack of Hard Shoulders is one of the major reasons for the poor visibility. I also travel a stretch of the R132 in Meath where the hard shoulders were removed a couple of years ago - on one occasion, I encountered pedestrians on the road which meant I had to go into the hatched area to avoid them - I found the situation deadly dangerous given that it's a very busy road.

I personally think the government should aim to have all busy National and Regional roads fitted with Hard Shoulders of at least 1.5m in width (somewhere for pedestrians and cyclists to travel). If you take the existing Single Type 2 standard, it would be easy to add another 2m (each side) to the pavement width of 8m - this would give you 2m verges, 1.5m Hard Shoulders and 3.5m traffic lanes - this IMO would be a lot safer as overgrown vegetation would be less of a problem on the bends.

SeanW

Hard shoulders are very useful - I see them used a lot for slow vehicles, broken down vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists, people taking breaks on long journies, presumably also using mobile phones while not driving, a new use in the past 10 years or so for hard shoulders.

Just today I saw a car broken down on the N22, a 2+2 type road heading for the South Ring, it was stuck in the driving lane.

In short, hard shoulders remain a good idea and should be provided where practical.

corktina

a good quality road surface on the driving lane is a good idea too and I would venture are a better idea than a hard shoulder, the function of which in most circumstances would be catered for by a grass verge or a gravel margin.

galwaycyclist

corktina wrote: »

do we really need mile after mile of tarmac shoulders? Wouldnt roads be cheaper without them? The UK seem to manage quite nicely without them

The use of hard shoulders on Irish roads in the 1970s was associated with a 50% reduction in cycling accidents. UK design standards for similar roads are arguably negligent due to the absence of paved shoulders.

corktina

afaik, a lot of cyclists avoid riding on the hard shoulder due to the amount of debris that may cause them a puncture.

galwaycyclist

corktina wrote: »

afaik, a lot of cyclists avoid riding on the hard shoulder due to the amount of debris that may cause them a puncture.

Yep that is a problem with hard shoulders and you'll probably find a proportion of cyclists staying in the live traffic lane. However it is likely less of a problem with Hard shoulders than it would be with cycle lanes.

Hard shoulders attract occasional use as a "slow lane" for motor traffic where people pull in to let others pass. In the context of Irish maintenance regimes, this is actually a benefit for cyclists since it has the happy side effect of sweeping the hard shoulder clear of debris. Irish cycle lanes - as places that motorists are not supposed to enter at all - tend to be worse for gathering gunk. Especially if they get used at "extra urban" places that are never swept.

In 2004, after lobbying by cyclists, Galway city's elected council voted to amend the draft city development plan to make 2m hard shoulders the default cycling provision on the city's roads - where feasible. This has been studiously ignored by the city administration.

The top picture shows the effect of using cycle lanes at a semirural location - thats gravel



This picture shows the kind of thing the city officials think cyclists should be on - they have stated this is the "model" for the city. Those are yield markings - there are 18 of them.

munchkin_utd

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The top picture shows the effect of using cycle lanes at a semirural location - thats gravel

to be fair, it'd be cheaper to sweep the crap from the road than to pave hundreds or thousands of square meters of extra asphalt about the city to entice motorists to self sweep the street!!!

galwaycyclist

munchkin_utd wrote: »

to be fair, it'd be cheaper to sweep the crap from the road than to pave hundreds or thousands of square meters of extra asphalt about the city to entice motorists to self sweep the street!!!

You'll need to explain that one for me I'm not very bright. You are saying that putting in kilometers of up and down kerbing thats harder to sweep is cheaper than providing a hard shoulder? Or are you saying that on main roads in a university city no space should kept available for cyclists to keep moving?

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The top picture shows the effect of using cycle lanes at a semirural location - thats gravel

Semi Rural - are you well? There's been nothing rural about that road for over 10 years. And it's a lot safer since they've widened & resurfaced the road than it used to be.

For those of you unfamiliar with Galway that's the entrance to Parkmore West Industrial Estate (home to a large number of medical devices and other factoies), from the Tuam road (this part of the road is formerly know as an Cnoc Mór),

galwaycyclist wrote: »

This picture shows the kind of thing the city officials think cyclists should be on - they have stated this is the "model" for the city. Those are yield markings - there are 18 of them.

Would you rather not be told to yield? That footpath & cycle lane was largely CPO'd out of private property so it's only proper that the priority of access stays with the driveway

Btb that's a vast improvement on what it was like before they started building in Doughiska. I remember when the biggest problem on that road wasn't the uneven surface or inches deep potholes, it was the dogs roaming out of the halting site on the hill.

Get a grip on reality.

galwaycyclist

The subject of the thread is hard shoulder not the relative definitions of urban vs rural vs semi-rural so I don't propose to engage with you on that point.

If you have a personal grievance over the land take on the Doughiska Rd I suggest you take it up with the City Council or raise under the Doughiska rd on the Galway City forum. For what its worth the Cycle Campaign's analysis was that, because of the junction density, the Doughiska Rd was probably best dealt with using a 9.2m carriageway with no cycle lanes.

HivemindXX

antoobrien wrote: »

Would you rather not be told to yield? That footpath & cycle lane was largely CPO'd out of private property so it's only proper that the priority of access stays with the driveway

This is terribly wrong headed thinking.

People pulling out of their driveways should not have right of way. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. The fact that they used to own this stretch of footpath makes no difference.

In the case of this road, an on road cycle track, or a thin hard shoulder if you prefer, would be better in every way. It would have been cheaper to put in, it would be better for cyclists who aren't required to yield 18 times in a few hundred meters and it would be better for motorists who don't have to deal with cyclists who inevitably decide they would be better off in the main road which appears to be too narrow for safe overtaking. People pulling out of private driveways still have to yield when they get to the main road and they don't have to worry about finding out whether a triangle painted on the footpath protects them from being sued if they hit a cyclist when they refuse to yield to traffic on the public footpath when pulling out of their private driveway.

antoobrien

HivemindXX wrote: »

This is terribly wrong headed thinking.

Not really this is a mostly residential road along a set of housing estates and 10 year old plus one offs (throw in the obligatory school, Lidl & a few warehouses). There's no reason for any passing traffic on this road.

As the previous poster said a 9.2m road was recommended, 7m is the normal road width. That leaves plenty of room for bus stops, cyclists and motorists.

what_traffic

galwaycyclist wrote:

The top picture shows the effect of using cycle lanes at a semirural location - thats gravel

Great picture; also to note for those not familiar with Galway - the far side of the roundabout in this picture no cycle lane markings at all (no hard shoulder either) same road width and dont have the problem shown in the picture above. Road is swept naturally by traffic.

ardmacha

People pulling out of their driveways should not have right of way. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. The fact that they used to own this stretch of footpath makes no difference.

Absolutely. Driveways should yield to traffic on the road, pedestrian, cycle or motor. This should be perfectly obvious and should not be made ambiguous in any way.

niloc1951

ardmacha wrote: »

Absolutely. Driveways should yield to traffic on the road, pedestrian, cycle or motor. This should be perfectly obvious and should not be made ambiguous in any way.

Yes, giving way to passing traffic and pedestrians when exiting from private property (yard, driveway, service station, etc. etc.) is 'hard wired' into my driving attitude, in fact I consider it to be one of the rules of the road.
Have I been programmed wrong or is this just another case of our road designers/engineers incompetence.

Zoney

If we did away with hard shoulders, we would need more footpaths (which are presumably more expensive due to the kerbing). If you're bringing up the UK as an example, they do generally have more footpaths than we do.

Go down the country here and you'll get urban areas (villages, outskirts of towns) where there are no footpaths, nevermind rural areas with housing or tourist areas.

Proper multi-lane roads would also cost more.

Hard shoulders are a reasonable compromise and we're all used to them here.

corktina

we dont have to do away with the hard shoulders, just not maintain them to the same standard as the driving lanes.

On balance Id rather have more properly surfaced roads (or a smaller tax bill) than a hard shoulder.

Danno

Scroll into 3 minutes of this video to see the use of hard margins here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOeVNwTF4DU

hi5

The hard shoulder between Durrow and Abbeyleix on the N8 is now a bicycle lane all the way on both sides,it probably exists elsewhere but its a new one on me.
I dont think I've ever seen a bicycle on that road to be honest,maybe its to enourage them off the motorway:D

Irish and Proud

hi5 wrote: »

The hard shoulder between Durrow and Abbeyleix on the N8 is now a bicycle lane all the way on both sides,it probably exists elsewhere but its a new one on me.
I dont think I've ever seen a bicycle on that road to be honest,maybe its to enourage them off the motorway:D

Well it's better than removing them like what Meath CC did to a short section of the R132 South of Drogheda during resurfacing works - great surface I must say, but that's not the point!

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

we dont have to do away with the hard shoulders, just not maintain them to the same standard as the driving lanes.

On balance Id rather have more properly surfaced roads (or a smaller tax bill) than a hard shoulder.

maintain them to a lower standard and I'd cycle out in the middle of the driving lane (perfectly legal) instead of a ****ty uncomfortable badly maintained surface but would piss everyone off no end and cause huge delays.

I'd also never bother pulling into them either in the car if the surface was a little bit dodgy to allow people to pass...

corktina

the trouble is "perfectly legal" is your opinion. If a Gard decides HIS opinion is it is Obstruction then the Opinion the Judge will listen to is the Gards.

Of course if there was no hard shoulder (or if it was removed á lá Meath CC) then there would be no problem as regards cyclists (except more of them getting flattened) and anyone breaking down could pull on to the grass. (naturally that is MY opinion. :-)

galwaycyclist

hi5 wrote: »

The hard shoulder between Durrow and Abbeyleix on the N8 is now a bicycle lane all the way on both sides,it probably exists elsewhere but its a new one on me.
I dont think I've ever seen a bicycle on that road to be honest,maybe its to enourage them off the motorway:D

There are proposals for something similar in Limerick/North Tipp

Limerick to Nenagh Cycle Lanes - opinions needed on proposal

Informed opinion among the cycling community is that this is a highly questionable use of public money that may have the effect of increasing the number of cyclists using the live traffic lanes instead of the hard shoulders.

Danno

The cycle lane between Durrow and Abbeyleix is regularly used, especially at weekends and during fine weather. Well worth the investment of a few signs and white lines.

The surface is to such a high standard that it will last years and require feck all maintenance. I think they should roll this out on all N Secondary routes and R routes.

If they did the national cycle trail would be some tourist attraction!

walsheliz

I think the way the road has been laid out with a car and cycle lane on both sides is fantastic. All N roads should be done this way. If a car needs to use the hard shoulder for the proper purpose then the cyclists just go round the car. It's utterly brilliant and I wish ideas of this nature were rolled out nationwide.

AugustusMinimus

I can't see why this isn't being implemented everywhere, although with a previso.

That the cycle lane be a joint hard shoulder. Cars and other traffic being allowed into the hard shoulder for the following two reasons.

1. In case of a break down
2. Temporarily to leave faster traffic pass. Obviously this would have to be done safely and ensuring there are no cyclists or walkers in the cycle lane / hard shoulder at the time.