No On The Spot Fines It Seems

Kintarō Hattori

ON-THE-SPOT fines for cyclists have gone the way of Dublin’s hoped-for Metro lines – they are not going to happen any time soon. Transport Minister Leo Mr Varadkar told Dublin City Council the National Cycle Policy pledge two years ago cannot be enforced as cyclists are not required to register their bikes or to carry identification. The policy had called on him to introduce the fines promised under the framework plan signed off by his predecessor Noel Dempsey.
In a statement yesterday, Mr Varadkar said: ‘There are barriers to the introduction of fixed notices, including the fact that there is no registration or licensing system for cyclists.’ Gardaí have the power to bring law-breaking cyclists to court, where they can be issued with an €800 fine for a first offence, rising to a jail term for a third offence within a 12 month period. However, such cases are rare. A spokesman for Mr Varadkar said he was ‘looking at all options’.
Dublin City councillor Mary Freehill said she feels the council is ‘being fobbed off’ by central government on a number of issues. She believes education and stronger Garda enforcement are needed regarding cyclists. Will Andrews, chair of the Dublin Cycling Campaign, also feels better training is needed for cyclists, like the free training provided by the local authority in Hackney, London.

http://e-edition.metroherald.ie/2011/10/03/index.html?p=1

As a cyclist I'd welcome on the spot fines. It might help clear up some of the muppetry we see other cyclists doing. Being dragged to court for relatively minor offences is a huge waste of time and money, so it needs to change. The reason they give for no on the spot fines are because bikes aren't registered and riders don't carry ID. Isn't it this the same in the UK yet they have on the spot fines.

What do you folk think? Would you welcome these fines, are the reasons they give for not implementing it legitimate or a load of old nonsense?

-Chris-

I'd definitely welcome them, vastly preferrable to getting dragged to court for a minor offence.

ashleey

If it's a 'minor' offence don't waste anyone's time or money. If it's serious take them to court.

Cookie_Monster

how come on the spot fines can be issued by Dublin Bus, Luas etc but not AGS for cyclists just cos they don't have ID?

Seems a bit of a cop out...

-Chris-

Surely they have the same ID issue when issung summonses

seamus

ashleey wrote: »

If it's a 'minor' offence don't waste anyone's time or money. If it's serious take them to court.

Minor offences are the irritating ones, the ones which reflect badly on cyclists (and pedestrians) in general.

It's also reasonable to say that if people know that minor offences are generally ignored, then it stands to reason that the slightly more risky behaviour will also be ignored, or at worst won't have any serious consequences.

This is a cop-out from Varadkar, and disappointing in general. You don't need to get ID from people. They pay the on-the-spot fine or the bike is taken from them and not released until they return with their fine. It should be a standard policy implemented for all such things including riding without lights, riding a clearly defective/unsafe bike, RLJ's, etc.
Those of us with half a brain cell will never fall foul of this on-the-spot fine and we also won't have suffer the indirect anti-cyclist hatred caused by these idiots.

monument

I think everybody should have bought The Sunday Times -- the original story was better

morana

seamus wrote: »

They pay the on-the-spot fine or the bike is taken from them and not released until they return with their fine. It should be a standard policy implemented for all such things including riding without lights, riding a clearly defective/unsafe bike, RLJ's, etc.
Those of us with half a brain cell will never fall foul of this on-the-spot fine and we also won't have suffer the indirect anti-cyclist hatred caused by these idiots.

Lads the number of Gardai is being reduced day by day and at the end of the year a whole heap more are retiring. I think their focus is more on drug smuggling, illegal diesel etc etc before they start going around with torque wrenches to check punters bikes!

seamus

morana wrote: »

Lads the number of Gardai is being reduced day by day and at the end of the year a whole heap more are retiring. I think their focus is more on drug smuggling, illegal diesel etc etc before they start going around with torque wrenches to check punters bikes!

There are specific task forces for the harder stuff. We're talking about the beat cops here whose job is picking up on the minor stuff on the street.

Don't need a torque wrench to look at some of the clunkers on the streets. You can educate anyone within 30 minutes on how to identify brakes which are broken/disconnected, wheels which are clearly in bits and so on. Wrecked bikes is a very minor one, but IMO it goes hand-in-hand with bad riding. That is, the kind of person who'll happily ride around on a BSO rustbucket with no brakes is the same person who uses the path, breaks lights, swerves in and out of traffic, rides the wrong way up cycle lanes and so on.

Surveyor11

Personally, I see some sort of deterrent as the only way - a few fines will soon sort that out. The problem is that most cyclists behave as pedestrians and not vehicles, and it's the ones that break the rules that colour us all. 3 guys in front of me broke the red lights at Castleknock Gate this morning, I waited in the cycling box at the top of the lane. I would say that cyclists breaking red lights are in the majority IMHO. I've seeing guys hairing through these red lights without even slowing down - you soon run out of luck and it's only a matter of time before you meet a pedestrian of a car that's doing a similar stunt (running a red light). Another 2 cyclists broke the pedestrian lights at Hanlons's Corner, the first cyclist almost hitting a mother with her buggy and young child that rightly stepped out to cross the road. And there was a motorcycle cop waiting at the lights who did sweet FA.

In fairness, we all crib about the state of infrastructure, but if we're going about our cycling lives in a less than ideal way, well we have to up the ante as well in terms of behaviour.

The ID problem is no issue - if it's a Guard, well it's a criminal offence to give false details. Irish Rail and LUAS enforcers have no problems ringing the Guards to check some ones details when they're issuing on the spot fines, so this is a minor issue

Stark

Surveyor11 wrote:

I've seeing guys hiaring through these red lights without even slowing down - you soon run out of luck and it's only a matter of time before you meet a prestrian of a car that's doing a similar stunt (running a red light)

Presumably they're more likely to have a red light if your light is green?

PCX

I'd say the average guard on the beat would be far more willing to pull someone over and have a word with a cyclist that they see behaving badly if they had the power to deal with the situation on the spot. If the only option that they have is to issue a summons then that means that they'll have to attend court themselves and they probably can't be bothered for such minor offences. That has lead to a situation that many cyclists think that the rules of the road don't apply to them or at least that there is no consequences if a guard sees them breaking the rules of the road.

Any time a guard spends in court is time they are not available to be doing their other duties so it's a waste of their time and taxpayers money. If it is possible to deal with an offence without going to court it's better for everyone involved -more guards available to be on the streets, less strain on the court service and the cyclist involved doesn't have to take a day off to attend court. I'm sure if the cyclist disagrees with the on the spot fine or feels they have been badly treated they could chose to go to court and take their chances there instead.

CramCycle

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

http://e-edition.metroherald.ie/2011/10/03/index.html?p=1

As a cyclist I'd welcome on the spot fines. It might help clear up some of the muppetry we see other cyclists doing. Being dragged to court for relatively minor offences is a huge waste of time and money, so it needs to change. The reason they give for no on the spot fines are because bikes aren't registered and riders don't carry ID. Isn't it this the same in the UK yet they have on the spot fines.

I also cannot see the issue with no ID, most people have some for of ID, even if its not legitimate on them at all times eg ATM card

If they don't believe the person to be telling the truth they could lock up their bike or get it shipped to the station by a paddy wagon if its not a busy day and release it upon payment or issue of official ID (admittedly alot of hassle but surely better than a day in court)

Jawgap

they're going after jaywalkers:

"The campaign will be particularly focused on speeding especially in 30kph and 50kph zones and gardai on bicycles will enforce jaywalking particularly at busy junctions where pedestrians are likely to break the lights."

I presume once the clocks go back we'll have the same nonsense we had last year with cyclists being targeted - I only say nonsense because last year I was stopped wearing my hi-vis jacket, with 2 TK11s on the front and three lights on the back to be given a leaflet on lighting up your bike.

I suggested to the Guard that maybe I didn't need to be stopped to be given a leaflet and he told me his instructions were to stop all cyclists and give them a copy of it - I had the presence of mind to note his number as I expect he will be Commissioner some day.

Stick to the ninja cycle salmon, I say:)

fletch

If you do have ID, do you have to show it to the Guards?

Stark

Jawgap wrote: »

gardai on bicycles will enforce jaywalking particularly at busy junctions where pedestrians are likely to break the lights."

Better policy would be to give more green time to pedestrians where this is an issue.

Jawgap wrote:

I only say nonsense because last year I was stopped wearing my hi-vis jacket, with 2 TK11s on the front and three lights on the back to be given a leaflet on lighting up your bike.

Maybe he wanted you to switch off your high beams when there was oncoming traffic

CramCycle

fletch wrote: »

If you do have ID, do you have to show it to the Guards?

If your on/in a vehicle on the roads, you must obey directions given to you by An Gardai, so I imagine if they ask, then yes.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

they're going after jaywalkers:

"The campaign will be particularly focused on speeding especially in 30kph and 50kph zones and gardai on bicycles will enforce jaywalking particularly at busy junctions where pedestrians are likely to break the lights."

I didn't even think jaywalking was an actual offence here. Not to mention the number of guards who do it themselves

CramCycle

bluewolf wrote: »

I didn't even think jaywalking was an actual offence here. Not to mention the number of guards who do it themselves

If you are within a certain distance of a crossing it is, I think 15m is the distance but I can't remember.

Kintarō Hattori

bluewolf wrote: »

I didn't even think jaywalking was an actual offence here. Not to mention the number of guards who do it themselves

If they are targeting jaywalkers it'll be interesting. Most pedestrians ignore the lights and run across the road. I'm sure we've all seen the Gardai cross against a red light.

How many jaywalking pedestrians cause accidents? I wouldn't have thought the number was particularly high- is it worth them enforcing it?

ashleey

Is not all getting a bit ott?

Kintarō Hattori

ashleey wrote: »

Is not all getting a bit ott?

It is.

dited

Jawgap wrote: »

they're going after jaywalkers:

"The campaign will be particularly focused on speeding especially in 30kph and 50kph zones"

I'm having trouble reconciling the above quote with this one from later in that article:

The Irish Times wrote:

Chief Superintendent Alan Reid of the Dublin Metropolitan Division said the controversial 30 kilometre enforcement zone in Dublin city centre was proving to be a success ... However, he said it was being implemented as a traffic calming measure rather than as an enforcement measure.

I'm not entirely sure what he means, but I seem to remember the Sunday Tribune doing their own speed check on the quays after the lower limit was implemented, with over 90% of the vehicles clocked at over 30kph.

I'm also pretty sure that the guards have consistently refused to answer any questions regarding the number of speeding tickets (if any) issued in the new 30kph zone.

galwaycyclist

I had a long conversation with a Guard about this one night. We were doing an event in Galway where the guards would stop unlit cyclists and a member of the Galway Cycling Campaign would give them a cycling skills leaflet and a reflective armband or a little red LED flasher. (Gear came via the HSE).

His view was that most people nowadays carry some form of ID - ATM card etc. He said that even without the on-the-spot fines he would have no problem doing a blitz and summonsing a load of cyclists at the same time.

The key obstacle for him was his certainty that if he tried anything like that he would be laughed out of court. That everyone from the bench down to his own colleagues would treat the idea as a joke and he would expose himself to ceaseless ridicule.

Ultimately the problem rests with our legal culture.

manwithaplan

seamus wrote: »

You don't need to get ID from people. They pay the on-the-spot fine or the bike is taken from them and not released until they return with their fine.

I don't think that's how on-the-spot fines work. The fine notice is issued on-the-spot (rather than by a court) but payment is made at some point thereafter. No-one ponies up a few quid to a Garda. This would be problematic for all sorts of obvious reasons. Many (probably most) on-the-spot fines involve no personal interaction at all e.g. parking fines, motoring offences captured by speed camera.

ashleey

I was listening to Today FM and I'm all for nicking blokes doing 50km/h on the pavement and skittling old ladies and kids but has the whole world gone mad or is it just me?
My 5 year old at the time was knocked down by a cyclist breaking a red light. She wasn't hurt luckily and a Guard was there to sort out the idiot.
But debating id, on the spot fines, Jay walking, blah, blah? Police state anyone?
Come down properly on the complete twits.
The way the conversation was going on Today FM is going to end up with pumped up bus drivers flattening cyclists because 'he was in my way'.
The best signs are 'Shared Space' ie for everyone and it's not a motorway.

monument

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The key obstacle for him was his certainty that if he tried anything like that he would be laughed out of court. That everyone from the bench down to his own colleagues would treat the idea as a joke and he would expose himself to ceaseless ridicule.

Ultimately the problem rests with our legal culture.

The ST article on this quoted a high ranking Dublin garda saying judges let cyclists off with the probation act once an excuse of some sort is given (ie road unsafe etc).

On-the-spot fines allow for a way around this -- cyclists would only be in court after not paying fines or for more serious incidents.

Or the comments from the garda may be noticed and acted on, but I think it's understandable for the legal system to be slow to convict cyclists for, say, breaking a red light when a motorist doing the same is usually dealt with outside court. Although this could be the courts taking a far too measured view of things.

seamus

manwithaplan wrote: »

I don't think that's how on-the-spot fines work. The fine notice is issued on-the-spot (rather than by a court) but payment is made at some point thereafter. No-one ponies up a few quid to a Garda. This would be problematic for all sorts of obvious reasons. Many (probably most) on-the-spot fines involve no personal interaction at all e.g. parking fines, motoring offences captured by speed camera.

OK, fair enough. But if they can't satisfy the Garda as to their identity - name & address - then the Garda takes the bike till they call to the station with decent ID.

Iwannahurl

ashleey wrote: »

I was listening to Today FM and I'm all for nicking blokes doing 50km/h on the pavement and skittling old ladies and kids but has the whole world gone mad or is it just me?
My 5 year old at the time was knocked down by a cyclist breaking a red light. She wasn't hurt luckily and a Guard was there to sort out the idiot.
But debating id, on the spot fines, Jay walking, blah, blah? Police state anyone?
Come down properly on the complete twits.
The way the conversation was going on Today FM is going to end up with pumped up bus drivers flattening cyclists because 'he was in my way'.
The best signs are 'Shared Space' ie for everyone and it's not a motorway.

Countries like Denmark and the Netherlands are not police states, and their cyclists, pedestrians and motorists generally behave themselves (at least in my experience of their road traffic culture).

Mature grown-up adult state anyone?

sdanseo

-Chris- wrote: »

I'd definitely welcome them, vastly preferrable to getting dragged to court for a minor offence.

Makes sense.

I'm a driver, not a cyclist - the mortal enemy I know, but I'll make it a constructive input, we share the roads after all. Got linked here from the thread opened on ES.

A good proportion of cyclists I see flout the Road Traffic Act quite blatantly. Undertaking, swerving in front of cars (often while quite rudely pointing at me or other drivers in the process), using pedestrian lights to avoid delays but holding up 50 cars in the process, and of course riding straight through red lights. These idiots (and I realise they are a minority, albeit still a substantial number) are a danger unto themselves and of course if they cause an accident, they're going to

a) Die or get messed up
b) Get blood on my car and that's messy
c) Leave me open to litigation.

It's in everyone's interests that both cyclists and drivers, and even pedestrians - in short, everyone who uses the road - are subject to the same rules, regardless of the machine they're using. If I run a red light, I get points and a fine. If a cyclist does it, they get a slap on the wrist. It's unsafe and unfair.

As an aside, I say that jaywalking should be brought back as an offence. Auld fella today just walked (sorry, turtled) across a 4-lane junction just as our light went green, by the time the codger had got out of the way it was nearly red again. Should be worth a €50 fine. Very, very annoying, and I;m sure it annoys you cyclists too.

Lumen

sdeire wrote: »

If I run a red light, I get points and a fine. If a cyclist does it, they get a slap on the wrist. It's unsafe and unfair.

If you run a red light and get caught, you may get points and a small fine. The cyclist may get a summons and a heavy fine (this does actually happen). I see drivers running red lights on a daily basis without getting caught. How many traffic light cameras are in Ireland?

Points aside, I think the fine is higher on the cyclist (€200 from what I remember). The point of the on the spot fines is to be both easier to give out and less punitive than a summons.

morana

So all the kids in all the estates doing wheelies, skidding, bunny hopping up and down paths...in general have fun on a bike will all be subject to these ots fines or just an appearence in Smithfield Courts??

I said it before the cops are under severe pressure to deal with crime I am sure this is very low on their list of priorities....

ArticHare

Other cyclists breaking red lights is becoming the most stressful part of my journey to work (the only stressful part I guess). Most people did it this morning on my way in, its bugging to the point that I say it to some of them as they're doing it or at the next junction they can't roll straight through.

Hope it stops annoying me soon. A car coming too close every now and again doesn't bother me at all, its bound to happen, especially at the speed I whizz about.

monument

morana wrote: »

So all the kids in all the estates doing wheelies, skidding, bunny hopping up and down paths...in general have fun on a bike will all be subject to these ots fines or just an appearence in Smithfield Courts??

I said it before the cops are under severe pressure to deal with crime I am sure this is very low on their list of priorities....

No, just ASBOs for the baby goats... Joking aside, children are not the problem and the fines should just exclude them.

But on pressure on the gardai... Yes, indeed, that's why giving them the powers to give on-the-fines to say those 17+ is better than the current very time consuming method of dragging them to court, at which point courts will often let them off.

morana

ArticHare wrote: »

Other cyclists breaking red lights is becoming the most stressful part of my journey to work (the only stressful part I guess). Most people did it this morning on my way in, its bugging to the point that I say it to some of them as they're doing it or at the next junction they can't roll straight through.

Hope it stops annoying me soon. A car coming too close every now and again doesn't bother me at all, its bound to happen, especially at the speed I whizz about.

you are having a laugh arent you?

ArticHare

morana wrote: »

you are having a laugh arent you?

Nope, I know it shouldn't bug me so much but its the height of stupidity. Clearly you don't mind this eh.

Jawgap

ArticHare wrote: »

Nope, I know it shouldn't bug me so much but its the height of stupidity. Clearly you don't mind this eh.

You have to look at it as dynamic interval training! By jumping the lights those guys (and gals) are doing you a favour because you now have something to aim for in the next few hundred metres.

ArticHare

Jawgap wrote: »

You have to look at it as dynamic interval training! By jumping the lights those guys (and gals) are doing you a favour because you now have something to aim for in the next few hundred metres.

You're right it does provide an incentive.

Iwannahurl

morana wrote: »

I said it before the cops are under severe pressure to deal with crime I am sure this is very low on their list of priorities....

So it would appear.


http://www.northernsound.ie/news-details.php?nid=8003&action=newsdetails

Iwannahurl

ArticHare wrote: »

Nope, I know it shouldn't bug me so much but its the height of stupidity. Clearly you don't mind this eh.

Bugs me too, but then I've been compared to Victor Meldrew more than once.

I'm routinely passed out by reckless cyclists while I'm stopped at red lights. Their favourite jape is to fly past us stationary losers at speed, often with earphones firmly in place, occasionally with helmet on (for added irony), mount the footpath using the dished kerb, and then press on regardless.

The footpath abuse often occurs at blind corners, but the possibility that they might encounter a pedestrian doesn't deter them either.

It's unfair and unjustified, of course, but it's also the case that these lazy and careless idiots give conscientious cyclists a bad name.