False info(Log book)

ugglasdav

just asking peoples opinions on people putting bigger engines into their cars and not changing it on the log book, i came across this car http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2585223. has a 2.0 in it, but only has it down as a 1.0 Litre on log book. why do people do this?. if he crashes, wouldn't that mean hes not insured.

Henry Ford III

They do it for cheap tax and obtaining insurance by deception I reckon.

pudzey101

Shoudnt the NCT check this or is that part of the test to match engine with logbook?

David09

pudzey101 wrote: »

Shoudnt the NCT check this or is that part of the test to match engine with logbook?

Afaik, examining the engine for correct spec is not part of the test.

ugglasdav

pudzey101 wrote: »

Shoudnt the NCT check this or is that part of the test to match engine with logbook?

i was actually thinking about the co2 emissions, it would be putting out the emissions off a 2.0, but the tester would be testing emissions off a 1.0 so wouldn't it fail the NCT?

pudzey101

My local NCT center caught a guy with a 1.6 subaru on log but really had a 2.0turbo engine put in, they got onto a engineer and made the guy change it to correct form on logbook.

this is the only one time i heard of something been done about it though:/

HappyHouseWife

Great! some little spotty 17yo buys this and wraps it (and mates and/or girlfriend) around a tree.
Insurance companies should have an employee trawling Donedeal for sh1t like this and pressing charges for deception. Seller didn't even blur the reg ffs.
Like that'll ever happen.

pudzey101

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Great! some little spotty 17yo buys this and wraps it (and mates and/or girlfriend) around a tree.
Insurance companies should have an employee trawling Donedeal for sh1t like this and pressing charges for deception. Seller didn't even blur the reg ffs.
Like that'll ever happen.

was going to write something similar...but i chickened out :P +1

johnos1984

ignore this

bazz26

ugglasdav wrote: »

i was actually thinking about the co2 emissions, it would be putting out the emissions off a 2.0, but the tester would be testing emissions off a 1.0 so wouldn't it fail the NCT?

The NCT don't test for Carbon Dioxide (Co2) though, they test for Carbon Monoxide (Co).

msg11

ugglasdav wrote: »

just asking peoples opinions on people putting bigger engines into their cars and not changing it on the log book, i came across this car http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2585223. has a 2.0 in it, but only has it down as a 1.0 Litre on log book. why do people do this?. if he crashes, wouldn't that mean hes not insured.

Well, if he declared the engine change then he is fine. It's a matter for revenue to sort out tax wise.

As for NCT, well there just testing what's put in front of them, as in 1.0 Litre on log book should get tested as a 1.0 Litre so it should fail the test if it's a 2.0 Litre. But an issue could easily arise with different engines as it's technically not safe.

As for that car, well I doubt it's insured as a 2.0 because it would need to be mechanically assessed and them drum breaks on the back wouldn't be able to stop that car.

As for trawling donedeal, well you see there cars for sale there's no proof too say the car has been used on the road. Unless, the Garda or whoever decided to stake out a house and watch the guy take the car onto a public road. Then the can of **** worms would open up. Also the fact of trying to prove he knew that it was not a 1.0 Litre car, although the ad could be used as evidence.

Another problem with these home conversions is there done at home most of the time there just as good as factory, and then sometimes there done very poorly and are a hazard on the road. Also, where did these engines come from? Cars that were robbed and broken, so really the Garda should be clamping down on this and looking at the engine numbers.

I done a Mivec to GSR conversion, so 1.6 to 1.8. Never drove it, insurance would have been a 1.6 etc.. It's just very messy getting reports and insurance companys don't really insure conversions easily in my option. Sad really took me months of work only to sell it, seen the light really if you want a powerful engine buy the car it comes with it will save you alot of heartache.

OldmanMondeo

msg11 wrote: »

As for that car, well I doubt it's insured as a 2.0 because it would need to be mechanically assessed and them drum breaks on the back wouldn't be able to stop that car.

Sorry, but some large engine car used to have drum brakes on the back and hey still stopped.

msg11

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Sorry, but some large engine car used to have drum brakes on the back and hey still stopped.

Yeah I am sure there are, I rather be in a car with discs all round that are more than capable of stopping it because hey the manufacturer designed the breaking system to go with the 2.0 Litre engine not a 1.0 Litre.

Sobanek

It happens a lot with BMWs.
316s getting 1.9 140hp engine from 318is.
And the 320/520 getting 2.5/2.8 engines.

Tomas_S

Sobanek wrote: »

It happens a lot with BMWs.
316s getting 1.9 140hp engine from 318is.
And the 320/520 getting 2.5/2.8 engines.

If someone had an accident with a car like this, the insurance company wouldnt pay out. They do check things like that after the accident. So its like you have insurance but you don't

Thats why they ask you was there any modifications done to a car.

danjo

Sobanek wrote: »

It happens a lot with BMWs.
316s getting 1.9 140hp engine from 318is.
And the 320/520 getting 2.5/2.8 engines.

Note that some 316's come with 1.9 engines. So if you come across one, it does not necessarily mean that the engine was swapped. They are still classified as a 316 by the manufacturer but listed as BMW "Other" on the Motor Tax database.

Sobanek

Tomas_S wrote: »

If someone had an accident with a car like this, the insurance company wouldnt pay out. They do check things like that after the accident. So its like you have insurance but you don't

Thats why they ask you was there any modifications done to a car.

Unless they take the engine apart, they can't prove that

1.6 and 1.9 are the same engines. Just a different displacement. They even look the same.:D

It's the same thing with the M50 engines. M50B20, M50B25, M50B28. You can't simply tell.

Anan1

Sobanek wrote: »

Unless they take the engine apart, they can't prove that

1.6 and 1.9 are the same engines. Just a different displacement. They even look the same.:D

It's the same thing with the M50 engines. M50B20, M50B25, M50B28. You can't simply tell.

Don't they have an engine number that can be cross-checked for displacement?

JerCotter7

Sobanek wrote: »

Unless they take the engine apart, they can't prove that

1.6 and 1.9 are the same engines. Just a different displacement. They even look the same.:D

It's the same thing with the M50 engines. M50B20, M50B25, M50B28. You can't simply tell.

1.6 and 1.9 are different engines. One is a SOHC and the other is DOHC. You are thinking of the 1.6 and the 1.8 M40/M43. Presuming you are talking about E36's.

I never knew they looked the same from the outside. Surely they could tell easily by weight or something?

Matt Simis

The "log book" is for Tax.
The insurance doc is for insurance.
They are separate things.

Having 1.8litre on the log book but having 2.0 in the car doesnt affect your insurance assuming you have insured it as a 2.0, which most likely the owner did otherwise they would effectively have no insurance which would be dumb. If they were going to do that they just wouldnt insure it at all and save even more money.

Ive had cars before that Revenue incorrectly registered (sadly not with smaller CC engines, but with "Diesel" or TDI listed on a petrol car). This has no bearing on insurance, obviously. Remember that the car name and model doesnt change, so even a look up on the Regplate would still say what it is. There are also legitimate reasons for changing engine size.

The assertion that each of these sellers lied to their insurance company or has invalid details on file is totally incorrect.

Anan1 wrote: »

Don't they have an engine number that can be cross-checked for displacement?

Many BMWs use similar sized, shaped and weighing blocks, the idea that one should be taxed more than the other is an Irish invention and inadvertently made very difficult to police by the manufacturer. My understanding is the engine numbers are stupidly hard to find too.

Henry Ford III

Matt Simis wrote: »

The "log book" is for Tax.
The insurance doc is for insurance.
They are separate things.

Having 1.8litre on the log book but having 2.0 in the car doesnt affect your insurance assuming you have insured it as a 2.0, which most likely the owner did otherwise they would effectively have no insurance which would be dumb. If they were going to do that they just wouldnt insure it at all and save even more money.

Hmmm.....the link to the offending ad said this though Matt.....

"1.0 on book - cheap insurance and tax".

Dodgy central don't you think?

Matt Simis

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Hmmm.....the link to the offending ad said this though Matt.....

"1.0 on book - cheap insurance and tax".

Dodgy central don't you think?

Well in that case yeah, moronic!

BronsonTB

pudzey101 wrote: »

Shoudnt the NCT check this or is that part of the test to match engine with logbook?

They now should be checking the paperwork matches the actual engine. (Recent addition of the test) They are not they're to take an engine apart to ensure it is a correct engine from manufacture tho.

This practive was alot more popular in the past but both Gardai & Insurance companies are now fully aware of the practice & act accourdingly.

But like everything there is alweays somebody trying to pull one over on the law.

You can always report it to the revenue whistleblower hotline & they will investigate to ensure the correct VRT has been paid after the engine change. Bare in mind they also look at donedeal & see these adverts too.

Tomas_S

JerCotter7 wrote: »

1.6 and 1.9 are different engines. One is a SOHC and the other is DOHC. You are thinking of the 1.6 and the 1.8 M40/M43. Presuming you are talking about E36's.

I never knew they looked the same from the outside. Surely they could tell easily by weight or something?

1.6 and 1.9is look completely different.

pudzey101

BronsonTB wrote: »

They now should be checking the paperwork matches the actual engine. (Recent addition of the test) They are not they're to take an engine apart to ensure it is a correct engine from manufacture tho.

This practive was alot more popular in the past but both Gardai & Insurance companies are now fully aware of the practice & act accourdingly.

But like everything there is alweays somebody trying to pull one over on the law.

You can always report it to the revenue whistleblower hotline & they will investigate to ensure the correct VRT has been paid after the engine change. Bare in mind they also look at donedeal & see these adverts too.

+1

JerCotter7

Tomas_S wrote: »

1.6 and 1.9is look completely different.

Yeah I said that. I was on about the M40 or M50 block engines.

Sobanek

pudzey101 wrote: »

+1

Nothing like being a rat, eh? :rolleyes:

HappyHouseWife

Sobanek wrote: »

Nothing like being a rat, eh? :rolleyes:

Nobody needs to rat anybody out if the seller is using "1.0 engine on logbook, cheap tax and insurance" as a selling point and reg is readable on ad.
Don't forget, a percentage of every legitimate insurance policy goes to cover uninsured drivers and a person who insures this car as a 1 litre is uninsured!
Are you happy paying your car insurance knowing part of your policy is paying for this carry on?

si_guru

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Nobody needs to rat anybody out if the seller is using "1.0 engine on logbook, cheap tax and insurance" as a selling point and reg is readable on ad.
Don't forget, a percentage of every legitimate insurance policy goes to cover uninsured drivers and a person who insures this car as a 1 litre is uninsured!
Are you happy paying your car insurance knowing part of your policy is paying for this carry on?

Agreed - Thank you!

Same is true for those stupid parents who front for kids.. I am 43 and no doubt some of my policy premium is taken to cover little johnny who tears up the streets at night in his "mom's" Civic Vti... (1.3 on the book...). etc, etc.

We all pay in the end...

the_syco

Don't think there is somewhere on revenue.gov.ie that you acn report this to...?

Kat1170

Sobanek wrote: »

Unless they take the engine apart, they can't prove that
1.6 and 1.9 are the same engines. Just a different displacement. They even look the same.:D

It's the same thing with the M50 engines. M50B20, M50B25, M50B28. You can't simply tell.

If the insurance company are facing a payout of a couple of hundred thousand due to an accident they will gladly do it if it means not paying out.

jsd1004

HappyHouseWife wrote: »

Nobody needs to rat anybody out if the seller is using "1.0 engine on logbook, cheap tax and insurance" as a selling point and reg is readable on ad.
Don't forget, a percentage of every legitimate insurance policy goes to cover uninsured drivers and a person who insures this car as a 1 litre is uninsured!
Are you happy paying your car insurance knowing part of your policy is paying for this carry on?

Not necessarily uninsured. As long as they were not aware of an engine swap they are still insured as they did not make a false declaration. Obviously in this case they should know.
Regarding the NCT i cannot see them removing covers half dismantling cars to find an engine no. As previously mentioned 320 325 e30 engines are identical bar displacement.

HappyHouseWife

jsd1004 wrote: »

As previously mentioned 320 325 e30 engines are identical bar displacement.

Why do people keep bringing the BMW thing up? it's completely irrelevant. If you ring your insurer to get cover on your new 535d they don't just assume it's a 3.5ltr because of the 35 in the badge. (AFAIK it's a 3 ltr twin turbo)
They will either have a database or they will specifically ask you the engine size.
The issue here is somebody selling a 2 litre Corsa while making a USP of "1.0 on logbook for cheap tax and insurance"