UK to discuss EU withdrawal referendum

biko

Nigel Farage must be wetting himself

A historic vote on growing demands for Britain to leave the European Union will be held in the Commons before Christmas.
MPs will debate whether the Government should give voters a chance to decide the issue once and for all in a referendum.
It will be the first time Parliament has held a major vote on seeking the public’s view since the 1975 referendum confirming the decision to join the Common Market.

If UK leaves the EU Ireland should follow suit and instead open trade agreements with UK/US more.

The Scientician

If the UK left the EU and Ireland remained, would we be compelled to create border checkpoints etc?

srsly78

No. Ireland and the UK still have a special arrangement from before the EU (anglo irish agreement?). We aren't in the Schengen area at all, which is what governs EU border controls (and some non eu like norway + switz etc).

Richard

srsly78 wrote: »

No. Ireland and the UK still have a special arrangement from before the EU (anglo irish agreement?). We aren't in the Schengen area at all, which is what governs EU border controls (and some non eu like norway + switz etc).

That is correct. And despite what some MPs might want, UK withdrawal from the EU isn't going to happen. The leaders of no major party supports withdrawal, not even the Tories. It would be bad for the UK (and bad for Ireland if they followed suit).

FreudianSlippers

What exactly would be the benefit of the UK withdrawing from the EU? Seems pointless entirely.

snubbleste

I can't see Cameron allowing a referendum on full withdrawal. That would cause serious problems for other member states who may face similar demands from their peoples.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

............
If UK leaves the EU Ireland should follow suit and instead open trade agreements with UK/US more.

Why?

meglome

meglome wrote: »

This is the problem with UK politics and newspapers. If the EU does something good the local politicians take credit and put anything wrong on the EU. Some newspapers have an agenda so instead of saying "EU wants to categorise bananas to help consumers", they actually say "Crazy EU want to ban bent bananas".

My feeling is the majority of British politicians know all this and they also know the EU is very good for Britain. So they'll have to do one of two things, 1. Vote against holding a referendum or 2. Hold the referendum but campaign actively for the EU in the run up.

The nationalistic bull that usually goes with being anti-EU will mean that no sense can prevail from a referendum. You only have to look at our own EU referenda. Lot's of lying and dirty tactics all round.

I posted this in an After Hours thread last night on the same topic.

Sand

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What exactly would be the benefit of the UK withdrawing from the EU? Seems pointless entirely.

I think the general dream is that theyd be able to wind the clocks back to August 1940. Forever.

Corsendonk

biko wrote: »

Nigel Farage must be wetting himself

A historic vote on growing demands for Britain to leave the European Union will be held in the Commons before Christmas.
MPs will debate whether the Government should give voters a chance to decide the issue once and for all in a referendum.
It will be the first time Parliament has held a major vote on seeking the public’s view since the 1975 referendum confirming the decision to join the Common Market.

If UK leaves the EU Ireland should follow suit and instead open trade agreements with UK/US more.

He was on Sky News the other night reviewing the papers and was laughing because the DailyMail had that story while the Telegraph was running a story saying that they wouldn't have a vote.:pac:

The UK are like the irritating guy down at the local sports club that moans incessantly about everything but still remains a member. They are too afraid to leave because they might miss out on something. Don't forget the EU has a higher profile on the worldstage than a UK struggling to retain its current armed forces.

Batsy

There should be a referendum. I'd certainly vote on leaving the EU and I'm confident that the result of the referendum would be for Britain to leave the EU. It's time for us to leave this monstrosity.

Batsy

Corsendonk wrote: »

The UK are like the irritating guy down at the local sports club that moans incessantly about everything but still remains a member.

No. The ones who are irritating are those like Ireland who bang on about how "great" the EU is and that we must remain members to get all the "advantages" that being in the EU entails whereas the rest of the world knows that the EU is sinking and will soon be dead. But if the British do the right thing and leave the EU then they'll have the last laugh when the EU finally goes below the waves taking Ireland with it.

The difference between the British and the Irish is that the British stand up to the EU and value their freedom, democracy and sovereignty and tell the EU to get stuffed when they need to, whereas the Irish queue up to lick the boot of every EU commissioner who visits Dublin and to tell him how they always be the EU's good little lapdog.

Don't forget the EU has a higher profile on the worldstage than a UK struggling to retain its current armed forces.

The EU won't have any profile on the world stage at all in the not too distant future when it has ceased to exist.

meditraitor

Batsy wrote: »

There should be a referendum. I'd certainly vote on leaving the EU and I'm confident that the result of the referendum would be for Britain to leave the EU. It's time for us to leave this monstrosity.

the commentators on BBC politic show were pretty sure this wouldnt go through if it was put to the people.........

Batsy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What exactly would be the benefit of the UK withdrawing from the EU? Seems pointless entirely.

There are so many that It'd take me hours to put them into this post but here are a select few:

1) Withdrawal would reintroduce full powers to Westminster. This means that elected BRITISH politicians would rule Britain, rather than UNELECTED foreign politicians ruling Britain from Belgium. Fancy that, eh?

2) The EU is a drain on the British economy. The stupid amounts of Brussels red tape and bureaucracy stifle Britain's economic growth. Based on over 2,300 of the Government's own impact assessments, in 2010 Open Europe found that regulation has cost the UK economy £176 billion since 1998 - roughly equivalent to the country's entire budget deficit. Of this amount, £124 billion, or 71%, had its origin in EU legislation. Britain pays £65 billion annually to be a member of the EU. Withdrawal from the EU would also save us another £65 billion a year. A huge amount of money is given to the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). In 2006, a whopping 45% EU spending went towards the CAP. To put this in perspective, that's almost half EU spending allocated towards an industry that employs only 5% EU citizens and generates 1.6% GDP. This is truly unneccessary and is unequally distributed, France reportedly benefitting immensely, while countries with very little agricultural sectors seeing few benefits, and yet expected to foot the bill for this wasteful policy.

3) The EU is undemocratic and unnacountable. The EU institutions that govern this incipient superstate are deliberately undemocratic. The EU Commission is, in effect, the EU government. It meets in secret (like the North Korean government), conducts its business in secret and keeps all its workings secret. The EU Council acts as a sort of senate. It is made up of all the prime ministers of the member states. In theory the Council holds the Commission to account on behalf of the peoples of Europe. But like the Commission it meets in secret. The EU Parliament is presented by the EU as being the democratic forum for the people of Europe. However, it is more akin to a toothless revising chamber. In theory the EU Parliament has some impressive powers, but in practice business is managed by the elites so that it never has the chance to exercise them. That is one reason why it is essential that the Conservative MEPs leave the EPP grouping which restricts their actions so severely – as David Cameron has promised.

4) The representatives that we elect should not be able to give the UK away. Britain must remain its own country. Being a part of the EU threatens national identity and the UK economy amongst other things. Britain, the world's 6th largest economy and the EU's most powerful country militarily, does not need to rely on its European neighbours in order to succeed.

Sources: http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2008/08/rupert-matthews.html

http://debatewise.org/debates/784-the-uk-should-leave-the-european-union#point_4302_headline

Batsy

meditraitor wrote: »

the commentators on BBC politic show were pretty sure this wouldnt go through if it was put to the people.........

That's not what polls show. Polls show large support in Britain for withdrawal from the EU. According to a Yougov poll in Britain published in September 2010, 47% would vote for Britain to leave the European Union and 33% would vote for Britain to remain a member of the European Union

srsly78

Batsy completely neglecting to mention the UK rebate :pac:

meditraitor

Batsy wrote: »

That's not what polls show. Polls show large support in Britain for withdrawal from the EU. According to a Yougov poll in Britain published in September 2010, 47% would vote for Britain to leave the European Union and 33% would vote for Britain to remain a member of the European Union

but what the commentators pointed out, and rightly was that an open debate on the pro's and cons of being in the european union would have one conclusion..... the pro's far outweigh the cons and once this is in the public domain then the anti euro flibberty jibberdy would be seen for what it is.... nationalistic nonesense....

LondonIrish90

I'm anti EU. However even if the British public voted to stay in the EU (which they wouldn't should a referendum come round) then I would happily live with that. However, we are supposed to live in a democracy. The EU plays such a massive role in our lives (often for the worse - new financial tax anyone? Brussells can think again if they believe London will let itself be fecked over in that manner) yet its not something that has ever been there for the British public to vote for.

Hilarious that that dick Nodin has thanked just about every post having a dig at Britain so far he's post some of his own bigotted bile in a while. Fair and balanced, yeah right.

puppetmaster

Batsy wrote: »

whereas the Irish queue up to lick the boot of every EU commissioner who visits Dublin and to tell him how they always be the EU's good little lapdog.

That might well be True, but the European boots are at the very least easier to lick than the Texan Spurs that The British have been have been licking for years!!

I think it would be an interesting Debate for people to show more of the pro's of the EU, there are many. Which i believe outweigh the cons for the UK. It will be interesting to say the least.

slimjimmc

srsly78 wrote: »

No. Ireland and the UK still have a special arrangement from before the EU (anglo irish agreement?). We aren't in the Schengen area at all, which is what governs EU border controls (and some non eu like norway + switz etc).

But wouldn't it mean the redrawing of the economic border and leave the UK outside it? Wouldn't the UK be treated just like any other non-EU country as far as trade tarrifs and customs are concerned. I wonder if business groups would lobby against the loss of the unhindered right to access the worlds largest economy unless the UK joins the EEA (which kind of defeats the notion of full independence). Joining the EEA requires acceptance of many EU laws but without any representation in EU institutions.

Ireland may be required to establish a stronger customs presence at land and sea borders. Up side is duty-free is back on the menu.

Batsy

srsly78 wrote: »

Batsy completely neglecting to mention the UK rebate :pac:

Britain gives more money to the EU than it gets out (unlike Ireland). Therefore any money that it gets out of the EU is simply nothing more than a bit of our money that we are getting back.

Batsy

meditraitor wrote: »

the pro's far outweigh the cons and once this is in the public domain then the anti euro flibberty jibberdy would be seen for what it is.... nationalistic nonesense...
.

It's "nationalistic nonsense" that Britain wants independence from the EU and be an independent nation?

Maybe it was "nationalistic nonsense" when the Irish republicans fought for Irish independence from the UK.

Maybe there should have been a debate in Ireland on Irish independence and the good people of Ireland told that being in the UK has more pros than cons.

Batsy

puppetmaster wrote: »

That might well be True, but the European boots are at the very least easier to lick than the Texan Spurs that The British have been have been licking for years!!

I'd rather be a lapdog of the world's only superpower than a lapdog of Brussels/France/Germany.

Sand

@ Batsy

1) Withdrawal would reintroduce full powers to Westminster. This means that elected BRITISH politicians would rule Britain, rather than UNELECTED foreign politicians ruling Britain from Belgium. Fancy that, eh?

Isnt the idea that Britain is not currently ruled by British politicians false, when you consider that we're discussing a proposal by the British parliament to withdraw from the EU?

Essentially, the UK entered the EU under its own steam, approved by a referedum. It represented its point of view (badly in my opinion, but all the same) and signed up to negotiated treaties which were all then approved in the British parliament. It is now proposed that some want to leave the EU, which will again be decided by the UK parliament and referendum.

What I see is a freely entered into, democractically approved process by the UK. And equally, a freely exited process, should the British be mad enough. So I dont see this disempowered Parliament you apparently do.

Theres dramatic issues with the EU but perhaps the UK ought to propose fixing them rather than punching themselves in the face to prove a point.

ArmaniJeanss

Discussing the possible ramifications of the UK leaving the EU after this vote is akin to discussing what would happen in Irish sport if Shamrock Rovers won the Champions League.

Batsy

Sand wrote: »

@ Batsy

Isnt the idea that Britain is not currently ruled by British politicians false, when you consider that we're discussing a proposal by the British parliament to withdraw from the EU?

Essentially, the UK entered the EU under its own steam, approved by a referedum.

Britain is the only EU country to have a referendum on whether or not to leave the EU and that was way back on 26th April 1975. The people voted 2:1 to remain in the then Common Market.

Back then, the opinion of the British people was more favourable towards the EU than it is now. Why? Because back then what is now the EU was nothing more than the Common Market and the British people thought that all the Common Market was about was trade. They thought it was about nothing more than trade. So they were in favour of it.

But what has happened since then? The EU has shown its true colours and has declared that it wants to be a state, with its own government, parliament, military, national flag and even national anthem. Unsurprisingly the British people have therefore turned against the EU and now want out of it. They want their nation to be an independent nation. And who can blame them?

And Britain might have its own parliament but the majority of our laws now come from Brussels.

Batsy

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Discussing the possible ramifications of the UK leaving the EU after this vote is akin to discussing what would happen in Irish sport if Shamrock Rovers won the Champions League.

Not quite. There is a difference in that there is a very real possibility of Britain doing the right thing and leaving the EU.

StudentDad

Batsy wrote: »

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Discussing the possible ramifications of the UK leaving the EU after this vote is akin to discussing what would happen in Irish sport if Shamrock Rovers won the Champions League.

Not quite. There is a difference in that there is a very real possibility of Britain doing the right thing and leaving the EU.

Splendid Isolation worked when there was an empire. Leaving the EU would be a regressive step that would leave Britain politically, economically and militarily stymied.

SD

ArmaniJeanss

Batsy wrote: »

Not quite. There is a difference in that there is a very real possibility of Britain doing the right thing and leaving the EU.

The chance of Westminster voting to allow this to go to a referendum is close to zero.

Sand

Batsy wrote: »

And Britain might have its own parliament but the majority of our laws now come from Brussels.

But laws which only have any power because the British parliament empowers them by ratifying the various European treaties under which those laws are made. Lawmaking in which the British have representation, should they choose to exercise it.

Whilst democratic legitmacy in the EU is a problem, lets not be dishonest. National government simply do not want to give any democratic legitmacy to the EU because it might weaken their own position. Various power blocs in various countries have locked down the power in their various countries, and they would not welcome any alternative structure which might render their control irrelevant. The greatest ally a citizen of any European country has when taking on corrupt local power blocs is the EU.

I got to say - presuming you are a British nationalist - what argument do you make to keep the UK unified when the Northern Irish, Scots, Welsh etc might equally say they dont want a London parliament making laws for them? Even those in various regions of England might argue just as you do that a London parliament is not representitive of their particular area or region and is holding them back in some way.

At what point does your argument for breaking down artificial constructs of common interest (nationality being based on claims of common interest) break down?

Anita Blow

snubbleste wrote: »

I can't see Cameron allowing a referendum on full withdrawal. That would cause serious problems for other member states who may face similar demands from their peoples.

God forbid a government obeys the will of the people

Manach

The British are one of the major contributors to the EU budget, and should they leave that would serious dent the EU finances.

Wolfe Tone

I think it should be put to the British people in a referendum, its terrible that they haven't had a direct say in the matter since 1975.

StudentDad

Sand wrote: »

Batsy wrote: »

And Britain might have its own parliament but the majority of our laws now come from Brussels.

But laws which only have any power because the British parliament empowers them by ratifying the various European treaties under which those laws are made. Lawmaking in which the British have representation, should they choose to exercise it.

Laws on equal pay, working time rules, European rights, that are part of UK law, not because of National govt. because of EC level decision making. Rules which are good for individual citizens. If govt enacts legislation contrary to EC law there is redress in the courts. That Avenue of redress would be closed if the UK left the union and London would be free to roll back socially progressive legislation such as the human rights act.

SD

meglome

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think it should be put to the British people in a referendum, its terrible that they haven't had a direct say in the matter since 1975.

Em yes they have. They have consistently elected politicians with a pro-EU outlook... representative democracy an' all that. On the other hand they have elected very very few people who have suggested leaving the EU.

All parties put out a manifesto so it's not that people wouldn't know.

charlemont

Britain has its own Union as it is and the British have always been suspicious of Europe so its probably in our mutual interests if Britain leaves, The rest of us can get on with making a Europe to be proud of. Its not like Britain will float away.

stewie01

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I think it should be put to the British people in a referendum, its terrible that they haven't had a direct say in the matter since 1975.

would this be sarcasm, in reference to the double standards held by people here against the situation up north.

anyway can we hold a referendum to have them kicked out of the euro zone. see how long they last going it alone. dont the uk have the second largest trade debt in the world only second to the US.


on a side note, anyone think its hilarious cameron pulling up to the conservative party conference in a beautiful new Jaguar. isnt jaguar/land rover owned by an Indian company.

meglome

StudentDad wrote: »

Laws on equal pay, working time rules, European rights, that are part of UK law, not because of National govt. because of EC level decision making. Rules which are good for individual citizens. If govt enacts legislation contrary to EC law there is redress in the courts. That Avenue of redress would be closed if the UK left the union and London would be free to roll back socially progressive legislation such as the human rights act.

SD

You're wasting your time, he believes everything that the Daily Mail prints. Even when you show him he's clearly wrong he continues on.

FreudianSlippers

stewie01 wrote: »

would this be sarcasm, in reference to the double standards held by people here against the situation up north.

anyway can we hold a referendum to have them kicked out of the euro zone. see how long they last going it alone. dont the uk have the second largest trade debt in the world only second to the US.


on a side note, anyone think its hilarious cameron pulling up to the conservative party conference in a beautiful new Jaguar. isnt jaguar/land rover owned by an Indian company.

The UK isn't in the Eurozone, hence GBP being their currency.

mlumley

StudentDad wrote: »

socially progressive legislation such as the human rights act.

SD

Human rights act????......oh yes, thats the one that lets murderers have the right to stay in the uk, cos their human rights would be compramised:eek:. What about the countries right to safeguard its citizens?? HRA is a criminals charter, s*d the victim, help the poor cretin. One couldnt be evicted from the uk cos he had a CAT FFs.

stewie01

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The UK isn't in the Eurozone, hence GBP being their currency.

apologies, can we have a refurendum to kick them out of the eu

Lockstep

mlumley wrote: »

Human rights act????......oh yes, thats the one that lets murderers have the right to stay in the uk, cos their human rights would be compramised:eek:. What about the countries right to safeguard its citizens?? HRA is a criminals charter, s*d the victim, help the poor cretin. One couldnt be evicted from the uk cos he had a CAT FFs.

Please provide some evidence for the above. As it stands, it comes across as a 'mate told me X' post.

FreudianSlippers

From another thread, but relevant:

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Correct.

Interestingly in 2009 the ECB gave a non-binding opinion stating that although EU withdrawal would be legal under Article 50 of the Treaty for the Functioning of the EU, any unilateral withdrawal from the EMU and Euro without a negotiated agreement with the rest of the EU institutions without withdrawing from the EU at the same time would be illegal.
Interestingly, they also stated that there is no provision in EU law that provides for the expulsion of EU members from the EMU or the EU in general.

oscarBravo

This thread makes my head hurt. It's like watching a re-run of the Lisbon "debate", only slightly dumbed down.

Nodin

Batsy wrote: »

No. The ones who are irritating are those like Ireland who bang on about how "great" the EU is and that we must remain members to get all the "advantages" that being in the EU entails whereas the rest of the world knows that the EU is sinking and will soon be dead. But if the British do the right thing and leave the EU then they'll have the last laugh when the EU finally goes below the waves taking Ireland with it.

.............

If indeed there was ever a time when one state was isolated from the troubles of its neighbours, its long, long gone.

caseyann

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

I'm anti EU. However even if the British public voted to stay in the EU (which they wouldn't should a referendum come round) then I would happily live with that. However, we are supposed to live in a democracy. The EU plays such a massive role in our lives (often for the worse - new financial tax anyone? Brussells can think again if they believe London will let itself be fecked over in that manner) yet its not something that has ever been there for the British public to vote for.

Hilarious that that dick Nodin has thanked just about every post having a dig at Britain so far he's post some of his own bigotted bile in a while. Fair and balanced, yeah right.

I have to be honest here.I am one of the last people to ever agree with Nodin but never ever seen him say anything nasty about British ever.


Oh i hope UK get out then Ireland will follow suit.As chicken to do it first.

oscarBravo

There's part of me would love to see the UK withdraw from the EU, only to hold a referendum on re-applying for membership within a decade.

caseyann

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's part of me would love to see the UK withdraw from the EU, only to hold a referendum on re-applying for membership within a decade.

It will be long dead by that time.Sorry to burst your bubble of happiness.:D

oscarBravo

caseyann wrote: »

It will be long dead by that time.Sorry to burst your bubble of happiness.:D

Can I have Tuesday's Euromillions numbers while you're looking into your crystal ball? Cheers.

Wanting something to happen doesn't mean it's going to happen. Thankfully.

caseyann

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can I have Tuesday's Euromillions numbers while you're looking into your crystal ball? Cheers.

Wanting something to happen doesn't mean it's going to happen. Thankfully.

It doesnt work like that unfortunately Otherwise i would be in some villa on my own private island with no government at all.

But i do advise you to play the scratch card all cash for some reason over the next two weeks.:)

mike65

Lockstep wrote: »

Please provide some evidence for the above. As it stands, it comes across as a 'mate told me X' post.

Here's an example - an illegal asylum seeking who killed a girl behind the wheel of a car and can't be deported as his human rights would be interfered with. Details here