Curlew & Grouse

LostCovey

Just looking at the seasons as kindly posted by Esridax

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71148900&postcount=3

Do others on the forum think that having shooting seasons for endangered species like Curlew and Grouse will give shooting a bad name? It's hardly sustainable.

I know plenty of shooters who wouldn't fire at either.

Is it time they were taken off the list?

LostCovey

ace86

i do feel its bad practice having a shooting season for species like curlew and grouse. there is only 4200 grouse in ireland according to the last count and are 10 times harder to rare then pheasants and partridge and can't be reared in captivity. I feel a temporary ban should be in place for a few years to increase numbers and even transport birds from areas that have plenty to an area that has decreased and that can sustain them along with good game management and habitat management.

Half-cocked

Does anyone actually shoot curlews anymore? It certainly does give shooting a bad name as the number of breeding pairs in Ireland is crashing. I wouldn't have classed them as a traditional game species and think they should be protected. Golden Plover too.

Birdnuts

I beleive this was well thrashed out here last year LC;)

This state of affairs has little or nothing to do with hunters since deceisions of this nature are takin by the government, presumbly based on scientifc advice from experts in the NPWS etc.

In any case as you pointed out, very few if any hunters bother with eithier species nowadays. In the case of the Curlew in particular, even if you happen to shoot a bird during the hunting season, the chances of it being an Irish Breeder(as opposed to the much more numerous winter migrants!!) is probably a thousand to one!!:rolleyes:

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

I beleive this was well thrashed out here last year LC;)

This state of affairs has little or nothing to do with hunters since deceisions of this nature are takin by the government, presumbly based on scientifc advice from experts in the NPWS etc.

In any case as you pointed out, very few if any hunters bother with eithier species nowadays. In the case of the Curlew in particular, even if you happen to shoot a bird during the hunting season, the chances of it being an Irish Breeder(as opposed to the much more numerous winter migrants!!) is probably a thousand to one!!:rolleyes:

Oh I agree that the continuation of these seasons has nothing to do with hunters but I think that lobbying by shooters could change this, and as has been pointed out, at little cost to the sport of the vast majority.

There are plenty of people who voluntarily restrict themselves to 1 or 2 grouse, but even that is unnecessary pressure on them.

I know it was well thrashed out last year, but I don't believe I am alone in being reminded of the absurdity of this provision each year when it is renewed. Lots of old chestnuts come up when their season rolls around, so I make no apologies for polishing this one.

I accept that the majority of wintering curlews are wintering long distant migrants (hardly an argument for shooting them, but I will let that pass). However their numbers are also falling, and if virtually nobody in fact shoots them, why not have shooting seasons that reflect that?

I fully realise that the majority of shooters are responsible and knowledgeable, and are pursuing a sustainable sport.

I just think the shooting seasons should reflect this.

LC

cavan shooter

Unfortunately with some shooters you would never get an agreement to try and drop certain species of the hunting list, due to the "if we look for a cessation to hunting x we may never get the chance to hunt them again" had this one recently when in our club we looked for consensus on the curlew. 99% of the people said they should be dropped from the list and one bright spark said that by dropping them we are eroding what we can hunt. Now to say a row erupted would be an understatement. We are more than hunters we are conservationists as well so I would say stop hunting and spend time conserving the stocks and bringing the population back to something we can hunt

Cass

LostCovey wrote: »

Oh I agree that the continuation of these seasons has nothing to do with hunters but I think that lobbying by shooters could change this, and as has been pointed out, at little cost to the sport of the vast majority

cavan shooter wrote: »

. We are more than hunters we are conservationists as well so I would say stop hunting and spend time conserving the stocks and bringing the population back to something we can hunt

Excellent answer to your question LostCovey. Even throughout the last two years and the cold weather ban on certain bird types, hunters and clubs had already imposed a self styled ban on shooting these birds. It is not in our interest to "eradicate" a species either totally or more liekly in an area.

However Birdnuts is also correct in that we have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of tue hunters understand before some pen pusher what is needed, however as with firearms licensing we have no say because they do not need us. So any sort of lobbying campaign would be futile as you'd find most hunters already agreeing if the need was there.


IIRC, i believe 95% of lads here already said in the previously mentioned thread about this subject that they do not shoot either species even if the opportunity presented itself. So as shooters and conservationists we are already "onboard" with what NEEDS done.

ace86

As we are discussing certain species is there any difference between our native curlew and the one that migrate here for certain periods of the year?

LostCovey

ace86 wrote: »

As we are discussing certain species is there any difference between our native curlew and the one that migrate here for certain periods of the year?

Not that I know of ace86.

They just breed further north and east, and migrate here for the winter when Scandinavia/Iceland/wherever is frozen solid.

However the migration instinct is hard-wired into them so they won't replace our breeding birds unfortunately.

LC

LostCovey

Ezridax wrote: »

Excellent answer to your question LostCovey. Even throughout the last two years and the cold weather ban on certain bird types, hunters and clubs had already imposed a self styled ban on shooting these birds. It is not in our interest to "eradicate" a species either totally or more liekly in an area.

However Birdnuts is also correct in that we have nothing to do with it. The vast majority of tue hunters understand before some pen pusher what is needed, however as with firearms licensing we have no say because they do not need us. So any sort of lobbying campaign would be futile as you'd find most hunters already agreeing if the need was there.


IIRC, i believe 95% of lads here already said in the previously mentioned thread about this subject that they do not shoot either species even if the opportunity presented itself. So as shooters and conservationists we are already "onboard" with what NEEDS done.

Thanks to all who replied and fair play, its great to see such unanimity about the vulnerability of these species.

The seasons as they stand do however give cover to trigger happy beginners/touring shooters to shoot these species/have them in the freezer.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot a hare either, but I know that not everyone feels the same.

I will try not to bring this subject up at the same time next year.......

LostCovey

Hunter21

In my local area I could go out anyday and see a nice few red grouse but I chose myself not to shoot them, somedays id love to just as to have a bit of sport but then pinch myself back to reality and savour the sight of them and leave them about their business and truely wish there was more red grouse about.
But I know I am helping by not shooting them, I also help their case by trying to educate others by telling them about the low population numbers of the bird. Its working so far. Also keeping quiet and hush hush about their habbitat is a big key.

Only issue I have is then harriers are still allowed to live in close proximity :mad: Is there anything that could be done to make the grouses life easier without having to worry about the harrier

LostCovey

Hunter21 wrote: »

In my local area I could go out anyday and see a nice few red grouse but I chose myself not to shoot them, somedays id love to just as to have a bit of sport but then pinch myself back to reality and savour the sight of them and leave them about their business and truely wish there was more red grouse about.
But I know I am helping by not shooting them, I also help their case by trying to educate others by telling them about the low population numbers of the bird. Its working so far. Also keeping quiet and hush hush about their habbitat is a big key.

Only issue I have is then harriers are still allowed to live in close proximity :mad: Is there anything that could be done to make the grouses life easier without having to worry about the harrier

I don't think there is. To be honest, the Harriers are in even more trouble than the Grouse. They have had very poor breeding seasons for the past two seasons in my area, leaving aside the low-grade persecution that still continues.

I think a healthy Grouse population could stand Harrier predation, but both of them are on the line.

LC

Hunter21

LostCovey wrote: »

I don't think there is. To be honest, the Harriers are in even more trouble than the Grouse. They have had very poor breeding seasons for the past two seasons in my area, leaving aside the low-grade persecution that still continues.

I think a healthy Grouse population could stand Harrier predation, but both of them are on the line.

LC

Spouse your right, no keen country sportsperson wants to see a wipe out of any particular species no matter what effects they have on the food chain.

LostCovey, have you experience with the grouse breeding association or what ever they are called? Id like to get in touch with them but the prob is Im afraid a project could attract attention of those who dont care about low numbers of grouse and still be greedy and choose to shoot them

Birdnuts

Hunter21 wrote: »

Only issue I have is then harriers are still allowed to live in close proximity :mad: Is there anything that could be done to make the grouses life easier without having to worry about the harrier

Hen Harriers have nothing to do with the present state of the Irish Red Grouse population - massive habitat destruction in the form of forestry,drainage,overgrazing etc. in the past 60 years is what has done for this bird(and many others:(). Hen Harriers and Grouse co-existed naturally for at least 10,000 years before man-made factors hit both populations hard.

PS: Indeed a recent study on the diet of Irish Hen Harriers by UCC found only one Grouse out of 2000 prey samples, which given the tiny numbers of this raptor is little or nothing.

Hunter21

Birdnuts wrote: »

Hen Harriers have nothing to do with the present state of the Irish Red Grouse population - massive habitat destruction in the form of forestry,drainage,overgrazing etc. in the past 60 years is what has done for this bird(and many others:(). Hen Harriers and Grouse co-existed naturally for at least 10,000 years before man-made factors hit both populations hard.

PS: Indeed a recent study on the diet of Irish Hen Harriers by UCC found only one Grouse out of 2000 prey samples, which given the tiny numbers of this raptor is little or nothing.

Thanks for that, Ive clearly been mis-informed about decline in numbers. My bad, learn something new everyday.

On another note here are a few pictures of the grouse in my area, spectacular sight to witness is an understatement

LostCovey

Hunter21 wrote: »

On another note here are a few pictures of the grouse in my area, spectacular sight to witness is an understatement

Fantastic photos - that's the best way to shoot them!!!!!

LC

Hunter21

LostCovey wrote: »

Fantastic photos - that's the best way to shoot them!!!!!

LC

Spoken like a poet! Must do some more research into preservation pojects and the likes.

LostCovey

Hunter21 wrote: »

Spoken like a poet! Must do some more research into preservation pojects and the likes.

There are a few very successful projects.

All of the ones that have worked address habitat loss, which is the ultimate protection against predation.

LC

ace86

LostCovey wrote: »

There are a few very successful projects.

All of the ones that have worked address habitat loss, which is the ultimate protection against predation.

LC

Are you at a project yourself and if you are what types of sucess are you having with habitat and preditation?

Birdnuts

ace86 wrote: »

Are you at a project yourself and if you are what types of sucess are you having with habitat and preditation?

I was at a talk and field outing recently concerning the Boleybrack Red Grouse project in Leitrim - very impressed with what I saw and this project is also supported by the NPWS. If your intersted in more info on this you should contact the local NPWS ranger in Sligo/Leitrim:)


PS: The main problem with predation is the increase in the number of Crows and Foxes in upland grouse habitat thanx to the spread of commercial conifer forestry, which of course has also resulted in huge loss of habitat:(

ace86

Birdnuts wrote: »

I was at a talk and field outing recently concerning the Boleybrack Red Grouse project in Leitrim - very impressed with what I saw and this project is also supported by the NPWS. If your intersted in more info on this you should contact the local NPWS ranger in Sligo/Leitrim:)


PS: The main problem with predation is the increase in the number of Crows and Foxes in upland grouse habitat thanx to the spread of commercial conifer forestry, which of course has also resulted in huge loss of habitat:(

I would be intersted in info alright you dont have a contact number or name i would be more then greatful my man.

Birdnuts

ace86 wrote: »

I would be intersted in info alright you dont have a contact number or name i would be more then greatful my man.

PM on the way:)

homerhop

Great pics Hunter21, never seen them in the wild. You are very lucky to be able to witness them on a regular basis.

MacraPat

Going back to the OP's original question I think that hunting and conservation can go hand in hand. As pursuers of these quarry, (theoretically) we put a value on their future survival. I say theoretically as there's always a 5% of lads who think nothing of shooting the last two curlew or grouse off a bog. "Sure they have wings, a few more will fly in.". Such lads would be my reason to be in favour of introducing some form of education/examination procedure ahead of receiving their gun licence. We might have a better chance of singing off the same hymn sheet.

Also bodies like the NPWS should engage with the hunting community to aid in protection of the quarry. IMO one of the failings of the Boora Partridge Project was a hunting party was never invited down, (the other fault was that the project wasn't replicated elsewhere around the country). Instead the tradition of pursuing wild irish partridge has been lost. Lads feel they're too scarce to shoot, or that to be shot a release based put and take system would have to be in place. Similarly with grouse or curlew, a "lets forget them and maybe they'll sort it out on their own approach". I want to use the example of quail in the state of Kentucky, US for no other reason that I follow the Department of fish and wildlife's youtube channel regularly.

Quail is a native prarie/grassland bird that needs regular burning of the grass to enrich it's habitat. Commercial farming, a change to tillage production, monoculture swards in cattle operations- yadda yadda yadda longterm decline despite sustained releases of hundreds of thousands of birds for over 50 years. A recent change in land management mimicking a wild situation and the population is taking off. Hunting of quail with discretion has continued through out this time, through initiatives such as lotteries which in turn helped fund the conservation project.

Conservation of game species isn't just a possible way, it's the best way to ensure a sustained protection of the species.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBweLN3iBhA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cr-dCEPWkg

DavyDee

LostCovey wrote: »

Just looking at the seasons as kindly posted by Esridax

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71148900&postcount=3

Do others on the forum think that having shooting seasons for endangered species like Curlew and Grouse will give shooting a bad name? It's hardly sustainable.

I know plenty of shooters who wouldn't fire at either.

Is it time they were taken off the list?

LostCovey

As for curlew, I have no idea why the numbers are supposedly so low, however I run my dogs along the river moy every evening and the so called 8 breeding pairs left in the country must have all been along the moy estuary because there have been at least 16 birds there all year & there are huge numbers now as the migratory curlew are now in also. To me it looks like an exageration to source funding, maybe Im wrong I dont know.

With grouse, the thing is if particularly if grouse are taken off the list there will be no one to actively manage them in the few areas which do hold good numbers, the heather will grow out of control and it will do nothing to combat the genetic bottleneck which the grouse are now in. The nargc have started providing grants to re-introduce them to suitable ground there are projects up and running now all over the country.

The problem is with grouse, if they are not managed cock grouse become extremely territorial when the reach the age of 2 and will kill off any of the young cocks who tresspass on their territory (and yes grouse kill each other cock grouse dont just fight they kill one another!), thus stopping young cocks from forming coveys with the young hens, then the old cocks become infertile. The 2 thing which have done untold damage to grouse numbers are bord na mona which destroyed an untold amount of natural habitat for the grouse and forestry. Huge bogs have been cut up by forestry leaving small sections in which grouse have been forced into a genetic bottleneck. The problem we now have is most bogs can not be burned for one reason or another which means either you have the heather growing out of control, or you get someone who will take a chance and set the whole bog up usually at the wrong time of year. Strimming of heather creates a moss which kills off the heather and if lads start burning patches, some idiot is going to see the smoke and say oh there must be grouse up there lets hit that in september. We hunt afew spots which have sustainable numbers but I made a decision this year not to shoot any until i get an idea of numbers, in my area they had a poor year breeding due to the bad weather and afew harriers in the area have done serious damage so I shot none, for me its all about watching the dog working them anyway!

I have said it before and I will say it again, the only way grouse have a chance is if there is a body set up for people with a genuine interest in the species where anyone willing to actively do something about burning bogs, providing medicated grit and controlling vermin can join. Maybe certain areas of mountain given to certain gun clubs to manage where they have the right to burn and manage the area. Then have a members only policy regarding shooting the birds and a strict quota until numbers increase. Just look at what has been done for the grey partridge, all the antis and animal rights activists done f**k all, it was lads who shoot got funding and remarkably saved a species from certain extinction! There were only 8 or 9 breeding pairs from which now boast over 1000 and growing every year! Banning will do nothing to help, a proactive approach is what is needed. Anyone with an interest in grouse should contact the Irish Red Grouse Association, 12 Clara Road, Moate, Co Westmeath.

ace86

DavyDee wrote: »

As for curlew, I have no idea why the numbers are supposedly so low, however I run my dogs along the river moy every evening and the so called 8 breeding pairs left in the country must have all been along the moy estuary because there have been at least 16 birds there all year & there are huge numbers now as the migratory curlew are now in also. To me it looks like an exageration to source funding, maybe Im wrong I dont know.

With grouse, the thing is if particularly if grouse are taken off the list there will be no one to actively manage them in the few areas which do hold good numbers, the heather will grow out of control and it will do nothing to combat the genetic bottleneck which the grouse are now in. The nargc have started providing grants to re-introduce them to suitable ground there are projects up and running now all over the country.

The problem is with grouse, if they are not managed cock grouse become extremely territorial when the reach the age of 2 and will kill off any of the young cocks who tresspass on their territory (and yes grouse kill each other cock grouse dont just fight they kill one another!), thus stopping young cocks from forming coveys with the young hens, then the old cocks become infertile. The 2 thing which have done untold damage to grouse numbers are bord na mona which destroyed an untold amount of natural habitat for the grouse and forestry. Huge bogs have been cut up by forestry leaving small sections in which grouse have been forced into a genetic bottleneck. The problem we now have is most bogs can not be burned for one reason or another which means either you have the heather growing out of control, or you get someone who will take a chance and set the whole bog up usually at the wrong time of year. Strimming of heather creates a moss which kills off the heather and if lads start burning patches, some idiot is going to see the smoke and say oh there must be grouse up there lets hit that in september. We hunt afew spots which have sustainable numbers but I made a decision this year not to shoot any until i get an idea of numbers, in my area they had a poor year breeding due to the bad weather and afew harriers in the area have done serious damage so I shot none, for me its all about watching the dog working them anyway!

I have said it before and I will say it again, the only way grouse have a chance is if there is a body set up for people with a genuine interest in the species where anyone willing to actively do something about burning bogs, providing medicated grit and controlling vermin can join. Maybe certain areas of mountain given to certain gun clubs to manage where they have the right to burn and manage the area. Then have a members only policy regarding shooting the birds and a strict quota until numbers increase. Just look at what has been done for the grey partridge, all the antis and animal rights activists done f**k all, it was lads who shoot got funding and remarkably saved a species from certain extinction! There were only 8 or 9 breeding pairs from which now boast over 1000 and growing every year! Banning will do nothing to help, a proactive approach is what is needed. Anyone with an interest in grouse should contact the Irish Red Grouse Association, 12 Clara Road, Moate, Co Westmeath.

Great info by you but from what i can see with burning especially on a mountain or bog you need alot of help and if the wind changes direction the results we have all seen at one time or another is severe and takes years to come right again. Some fellows come feburary, March should be forceable disarmed if they have a box of matches in there hand.

Birdnuts

MacraPat wrote: »

Going back to the OP's original question I think that hunting and conservation can go hand in hand. As pursuers of these quarry, (theoretically) we put a value on their future survival. I say theoretically as there's always a 5% of lads who think nothing of shooting the last two curlew or grouse off a bog. "Sure they have wings, a few more will fly in.". Such lads would be my reason to be in favour of introducing some form of education/examination procedure ahead of receiving their gun licence. We might have a better chance of singing off the same hymn sheet.

Also bodies like the NPWS should engage with the hunting community to aid in protection of the quarry. IMO one of the failings of the Boora Partridge Project was a hunting party was never invited down, (the other fault was that the project wasn't replicated elsewhere around the country). Instead the tradition of pursuing wild irish partridge has been lost.

Some good points there - I forgot to say the grouse project I mentioned earlier in this thread in Leitrim is run in conjunction with local gun clubs.:)

Also AFAIK the new Curlew project being set up on the border will be using the services of local Gun clubs in the areas of mink, fox control etc.

BryanL

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: Indeed a recent study on the diet of Irish Hen Harriers by UCC found only one Grouse out of 2000 prey samples, which given the tiny numbers of this raptor is little or nothing.

Is that not more a reflection on the low numbers of Grouse rather the % of the Harriers diet they make up. Some of the areas in the Harrier study had little or no grouse present.

An alternative view is here
http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__surveys/species_research/birds/red_grouse_bap_species/278.asp


Both birds are ground nesting I'd imagine fox control would help both?

Birdnuts

BryanL wrote: »

Is that not more a reflection on the low numbers of Grouse rather the % of the Harriers diet they make up. Some of the areas in the Harrier study had little or no grouse present.

An alternative view is here
http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__surveys/species_research/birds/red_grouse_bap_species/278.asp


Both birds are ground nesting I'd imagine fox control would help both?

That link only tells the story in the initial few years of the project, plus Hen Harriers prey items where based initially on estimates and not on actual study samples as in the Irish project I mentioned earlier. Here is the more up to date situation at Langholm(2011)

:http://www.langholmproject.com/PDF%20downloads/LMDP%20PR%20release%203yr%20review.pdf


which suggests both Grouse and Hen Harrier numbers are slowly rising again(thanx to increased fox control as you mentioned) though repeated bouts of heather die back(heather beetle) are not helping the Grouse.

PS: Also remember that this project is looking at boosting grouse numbers beyond natural densities for commercial purposes and not merely conserving the species as a whole. In Ireland it should also be noted that Grouse have declined as much in areas without breeding Hen Harriers as in areas where the few birds left are present.

BryanL

Birdnuts wrote: »

That link only tells the story in the initial few years of the project, plus Hen Harriers prey items where based initially on estimates and not on actual study samples as in the Irish project I mentioned earlier. Here is the more up to date situation at Langholm(2011)

:http://www.langholmproject.com/PDF%20downloads/LMDP%20PR%20release%203yr%20review.pdf


which suggests both Grouse and Hen Harrier numbers are slowly rising again(thanx to increased fox control as you mentioned) though repeated bouts of heather die back(heather beetle) are not helping the Grouse.

In Ireland it should also be noted that Grouse have declined as much in areas without breeding Hen Harriers as in areas where the few birds left are present.

I would say it doesn't suggest that. The numbers on the site show a decline in Harrier numbers since 1995
http://www.langholmproject.com/raptors.html

and as the numbers of Harrier have decline the numbers of grouse have increased
http://www.langholmproject.com/grouse.html

I accept that the decline of grouse is unaffected by Harriers, but it doesn't hold that they don't affect recovery.
Quoting from the Langholm project grouse page on recovery
"During and immediately following the Joint Raptor Study densities of red grouse failed to recover from a cyclic low and continued to decline. This was caused by predation from birds of prey."

and again
"Numbers of grouse shot at Langholm (green) since 1975 compared to two nearby moors (grey and brown). All three shown cyclic changes in number due to the periodic parasitic disease Strongylosis, but unlike the other two, Langholm failed to recover after the hen harriers became established during the Joint Raptor Study."

I don't shoot any birds myself but do have an interest in seeing them( raptors and game birds) when out hunting everything else

Birdnuts

BryanL wrote: »

I would say it doesn't suggest that. The numbers on the site show a decline in Harrier numbers since 1995
http://www.langholmproject.com/raptors.html

and as the numbers of Harrier have decline the numbers of grouse have increased
http://www.langholmproject.com/grouse.html

I accept HH numbers have fallen since 1995(when by all accounts densities were exceptionally high!!) but I was referring to the period post 2003 when Grouse numbers started to rise and HH numbers also made a slight recovery though admittedly it didn't last into 2011 - when grouse numbers also appeared to decline, presumebly due to the poor spring weather.

In light of the very low density of Hen Harriers in the few areas were they do still occur in Ireland and the fact they are not present at all in many grouse areas, I think this quote from your link is also signficant

" In the early part of the twentieth century Langholm Moor was one of the most productive moors for red grouse in Britain. Data published in the Joint Raptor Study showed there was a long-term decline in the number of grouse shot at Langholm from 1948 onwards. This was not due to raptors but most likely caused by the 48% reduction in the extent of heather cover. "

The same can be said of places in Ireland like Glenamoy SAC and Ballycroy NP in Co. Mayo where massive declines also took place in the same period(based on shooting bags) and were Hen Harriers have never been recorded breeding. Conversely some of the strongest current populations of Irish Red Grouse also overlap with the few Hen Harrier territories left. Alot of research needs to be done yet but I think the Irish Study I mentioned earlier in the thread is definatly a usefull start as regards the Irish situation. Especially given that the Irish Grouse is a distinct sub-species and has to cope with in many cases a damper climate to many of the grouse heathlands of Eastern Scotland etc.

Good to see too that the Langholm project is being extended for another few years to find out what is causing the ongoing variablity from other factors in regards to the population of both birds.:)

Browning

MacraPat wrote: »

Going back to the OP's original question I think that hunting and conservation can go hand in hand. As pursuers of these quarry, (theoretically) we put a value on their future survival. I say theoretically as there's always a 5% of lads who think nothing of shooting the last two curlew or grouse off a bog. "Sure they have wings, a few more will fly in.". Such lads would be my reason to be in favour of introducing some form of education/examination procedure ahead of receiving their gun licence. We might have a better chance of singing off the same hymn sheet.

Also bodies like the NPWS should engage with the hunting community to aid in protection of the quarry. IMO one of the failings of the Boora Partridge Project was a hunting party was never invited down, (the other fault was that the project wasn't replicated elsewhere around the country). Instead the tradition of pursuing wild irish partridge has been lost. Lads feel they're too scarce to shoot, or that to be shot a release based put and take system would have to be in place. Similarly with grouse or curlew, a "lets forget them and maybe they'll sort it out on their own approach". I want to use the example of quail in the state of Kentucky, US for no other reason that I follow the Department of fish and wildlife's youtube channel regularly.

Quail is a native prarie/grassland bird that needs regular burning of the grass to enrich it's habitat. Commercial farming, a change to tillage production, monoculture swards in cattle operations- yadda yadda yadda longterm decline despite sustained releases of hundreds of thousands of birds for over 50 years. A recent change in land management mimicking a wild situation and the population is taking off. Hunting of quail with discretion has continued through out this time, through initiatives such as lotteries which in turn helped fund the conservation project.

Conservation of game species isn't just a possible way, it's the best way to ensure a sustained protection of the species.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBweLN3iBhA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cr-dCEPWkg

Macra Pat > Failings indeed.

PRESS RELEASE on Behalf of the Fingal Grey Partridge Project

Ireland’s native Grey Partridges return to North County Dublin after 50 years
Innovative Ways of Promoting Wildlife on the Farm

Today, the Minister for the Department of Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht, Jimmy Deenihan T.D., released the first batch of native Grey Partridges from a release pen on a farm near Oldtown in north County Dublin.
After releasing the Grey Partridges in Fingal, Minister Deenihan said: “I am delighted to take part in this event, returning a native Irish bird to Fingal, where it has not been seen since the 1950’s. This project clearly shows how farming practices in the 21st century can collaborate with nature conservation agencies to the betterment of our wildlife. “
The Grey Partridge Release programme is part of the first year of an ambitious five-year project to re-establish a viable population of Irish Grey Partridge in north County Dublin. The Irish Grey Partridge Conservation Trust and Fingal County Council are managing the Grey Partridge reintroduction project in Fingal. Up to recent years Ireland’s naturally occurring population of Grey Partridge was in serious danger of extinction, with only 22 birds nationally, in a single location at Boora Bog in Co. Offaly.



The National Parks and Wildlife Service is responsible for the conservation of this native bird. Over the last number of years a conservation project funded by the NPWS has turned the fortunes of the species around from a critically low 22 to 932 birds. The NPWS funded Grey Partridge project in Boora is regarded as the most successful conservation project in Europe by scientists from the UK’s Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the leading scientific authority on the species.
Mr John Walsh of the Irish Grey Partridge Conservation Trust said, “The Boora project has worked and the population has increased to a point where the National Conservation Strategy for the species has moved on to its next phase. Not only will grey partridge benefit from this project, but also a range of other farmland birds that have unfortunately declined over the last number of decades. We greatly appreciate the co-operation of local farmers who have made this project possible”

Seventy Grey Partridge from the Boora project have been donated by the National Parks & Wildlife Service to kick start the project. Over the duration of the project a number of conservation strategies for the grey partridge will roll out on farmland in Final. These strategies are designed to increase the breeding productivity of the released birds. The newly established population will be augmented with birds from the captive breeding programme for two years. The longer-term objective of the project is to reach sufficient numbers of Partridges that are recruited from the wild population which will facilitate an expansion of the grey partridge within North Dublin.



The project will focus on the creation of suitable habitats within three intensive cereal farms in the Oldtown area. A series of 3-4 metre wide habitat strips over the 3 farms will stretch out over 10km. These strips will be located along the margins of the headlands. The establishment of a demonstration farm where profitable farming and biodiversity can co-exist without the loss of farming output is key goal of the project. This innovative approach is effectively a tweak of modern farming practices, which will ensure that many farmers see the benefits of this type of project and will continue to act as they always have, as custodians of biodiversity in the countryside.
Mr Hans Visser, Biodiversity Officer with Fingal County Council stated that “Rural Fingal has lots of suitable farmland for grey partridge to thrive in the wild, and we hope this pilot project will demonstrate to other farmers in Fingal what can be done for wildlife conservation in an easy and straightforward way. A narrow habitat strip in the least productive part of the field will have a minimal impact on farm income, while being of great benefit to farmland wildlife. ”
The project is funded by Fingal LEADER Partnership through the Rural Development Programme 2007 -2013 and Fingal County Council and is supported by the National Parks & Wildlife Service, the National Association of Regional Game Councils and three local farmers.

bibio

I can only speak from my own experience. Six of us have the shooting on a large side of a hill in wicklow. We did a count on the grouse using setters twice in july and again in late august ten years ago and counted six grouse. Each year after that we did extensive fox control and ten weeks of corvid control using Larsen traps to coincide with grouse nesting season.
We put out some medicated grit and do some small scale and limited strip burning.
We did not shoot any grouse for the first four years, but every year for the last five we have shot between one and three grouse a year, on the proviso that our counts show a minimum of thirty birds.
We will only shoot at single birds which tend to be older cocks and wisdom has it that this is beneficial to overall breeding success.
Now NPWS, birdwatch Ireland and anyone else can make their own mind up, we put this work in to take one to three magnificent birds a years, if there was no grouse shooting the fact is we would not do this work, so are the grouse better off? Not to mention the plover, lapwings and snipe that also benefit.

ace86

bibio wrote: »

I can only speak from my own experience. Six of us have the shooting on a large side of a hill in wicklow. We did a count on the grouse using setters twice in july and again in late august ten years ago and counted six grouse. Each year after that we did extensive fox control and ten weeks of corvid control using Larsen traps to coincide with grouse nesting season.
We put out some medicated grit and do some small scale and limited strip burning.
We did not shoot any grouse for the first four years, but every year for the last five we have shot between one and three grouse a year, on the proviso that our counts show a minimum of thirty birds.
We will only shoot at single birds which tend to be older cocks and wisdom has it that this is beneficial to overall breeding success.
Now NPWS, birdwatch Ireland and anyone else can make their own mind up, we put this work in to take one to three magnificent birds a years, if there was no grouse shooting the fact is we would not do this work, so are the grouse better off? Not to mention the plover, lapwings and snipe that also benefit.

Is the medicated grit very expensive to buy and on what type of ground did ye spread it on to find it effective? has shooting older cocks made more young cocks go out and form more territories and incresase breeding?

bibio

We only put out ordinary grit, could not source medicated grit,although we did try. I cannot say definitaley shooting the oldr cocks helped breeding, but all information Fromm uk moor keepers says that is does, so we decided that when taking the odd bird to go for single cocks and these are the older ones.
Numbers increased to between 25 and 40 each year, so I assume we are doing something right.

LostCovey

bibio wrote: »

We only put out ordinary grit, could not source medicated grit,although we did try. I cannot say definitaley shooting the oldr cocks helped breeding, but all information Fromm uk moor keepers says that is does, so we decided that when taking the odd bird to go for single cocks and these are the older ones.
Numbers increased to between 25 and 40 each year, so I assume we are doing something right.

Medicated grit contains a worner designed to eradicate a parasite that causes losses in Grouse on intensively populated Grouse shoots (ie UK gamekeepered intensive shoots).

I suggest such a parasite in Ireland would die of the hunger. We simply don't have the Grouse population densities to make this parasite an issue.

I suspect everything else you were doing had a real impact, but I doubt if medicated grit would have had any impact, even if you had sourced it.

My whole beef above was with hills where nobody does anything for the native grouse but shoot them.

More hills than you might think.

LC