Socket from immersion?

daithibailey

I was just wondering if it was possible to wire a socket up from an immersion, easy or a tough job? I'm sure I'd have to get an electrician to do a proper job.

2011

daithibailey wrote: »

I was just wondering if it was possible to wire a socket up from an immersion, easy or a tough job? I'm sure I'd have to get an electrician to do a proper job.

Not permitted as it is against regulations!

Remember, this circuit already has a loading of 2 to 3 kW on it.

My advice would be not to do it.

M cebee

yes it's not allowed-a sparkie won't do it

Bruthal

I agree,, its not permitted, nor should it be, although i dont think putting a socket on the circuit would be a major risk just because it has a 3kw load on it, but it is a factor alright, but the fact it does have a fixed 2/3kw load on it, and is a circuit supplying a fixed appliance, even if the rules did allow it, it would be very bad practice, and change the simple clean installation into a potentially messy one. We had a discussion on this very thing 2 years ago here.

Where are you looking to put the extra socket? If you do get an electrician to do it, which you should, it would be a bit of a cowboy job to come from the immersion circuit anyway.

Any new work should be kept away from inside the hot press as well i would say, unless its something associated with water based appliances.

So my advice also, would be not to do it from the immersion circuit.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

yes it's not allowed-a sparkie won't do it

Some of them would though, its definitely one of them real cowboy jobs.

M cebee

nothing bad will happen probably

permanently connected heating appliances greater than 10amp have dedicated circuit

2011

You are probabely right :D

M cebee

not sure of the exact definition of 'hot press' but a lot of new builds

the room containing the cylinder is more like a 'plant room' and contains no clothes so i assume rules on equipment don't apply

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

not sure of the exact definition of 'hot press' but a lot of new builds

the room containing the cylinder is more like a 'plant room' and contains no clothes so i assume rules on equipment don't apply

When i mentioned new work, i meant any new items installed in an existing house rather than an actual new house being built, i would keep away from connections in the cylinder press completely unless its something associated with it.

paddy147

Its like the whole "you cant have an alarmpanel in a hotpress" debate.

The regs do seem to state that you shouldnt do it,but yet so many people have their house alarm panels there.

I had mine moved to another parts of the house,due to safety concerns.

I wouldnt put a socket in a hotpress for safety reasons aswell.

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Its like the whole "you cant have an alarmpanel in a hotpress" debate.

The regs do seem to state that you shouldnt do it,but yet so many people have their house alarm panels there.

I had mine moved to another parts of the house,due to safety concerns.

I wouldnt put a socket in a hotpress for safety reasons aswell.

Not much to do with that paddy, i doubt the OP was putting the socket in the hot press, although anything`s possible. The main rule in this instance is, no spur from the immersion circuit, even if the immersion switch is outside the hot press.

I just mentioned the hotpress thing because i wouldnt do any connecting of anything in it which has nothing to do with the heating or control of the hot water.

M cebee

yes the question isn't related to having equipment in hot press really

Bruthal

Had that microcontroller chip controlled push button timer i put together up and goin properly today, just switching 60w bulbs on with press of the button and then they went off after the allotted time. Definitely be a handy yoke for the immersion. Goin to possibly make a dimmer switch that can be controlled with the tv remote as well probably.

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Had that microcontroller chip controlled push button timer i put together up and goin properly today, just switching 60w bulbs on with press of the button and then they went off after the allotted time. Definitely be a handy yoke for the immersion. Goin to possibly make a dimmer switch that can be controlled with the tv remote as well probably.

Is it something like this ?

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

Is it something like this ?

Its actually a pic12f675 chip im using, its just a stand alone chip which im using a pickit2 usb programmer to write code to from a pc, then just connect n/o push buttons from the +5v to the input pins in series with resistors, and higher value resistors between 0v and the input pins to keep the pins at 0v when the push buttons are not being pressed.

That particuar chip im using is just an 8 pin one, 2 pins for 5 volts, and the rest can be inputs or outputs, acording to the program you compile onto it. For the push button timer i have 2 inputs for 2 push buttons, one to start the timing period, and another to stop it if needs be. But 3 or 4 inputs could be used for various routines in the program, such as 30 minutes, 60 minutes etc from the same timer.

Then 2 outputs, one for a flashing led to show its timing, and the other output is into a mosfet transistor to bring on a relay when the chip outputs onto the output pins when the push button is pressed to start the cycle, according to the program written for the application. The chip itself can only switch about 20 miliamps.

Its all written in basic, straight forward enough, and compiled into hex code to the chip. Takes seconds then to change anything. A timer is just one application for them. DIP switches like in the board you linked could easily be used in this setup as inputs to vary the time length when the push button is pressed, if its reflected in the program written.

The circuit can be powered from a simple capacitive transformerless circuit for using in 230v applications.

All these type timers can be got easy enough, but its interesting the applications that can be done based around a single chip.

Im going to look at making infra red controlled switches as well with them as mentionened in last post, they can learn the codes from unused buttons on a tv remote. Have not tried that yet, waiting for some infra red receiver diodes to arrive for that.

altor

Handy when you know what your doing robbie
It is very interesting and hopefully the remote will work out. I am sure you will get it working. Just got one of these the other day to mess around with and then seen your reference to a type your working on.

Bruthal

Yea its interesting to connect the chip up to the pc and program in a little routine, then plug the chip into the prototype breadboard with a few components and press the button, lights on for an hour and then off, then add another input in the pc program, reprogram the chip, so now one push button for an hour, one for half hour, modified in seconds. Its very similar to the basic programming language of computers years ago for anyone familar with that. It could be set from milli seconds to years. Not sure a year or more timer would be needed though:D

It could have applications in alarms too id say. You could have 2 or 3 outputs do different things depending on what input is triggered. What you have the output do would be down to what you want to happen, and program the chip accordingly. Similar to the board you got there.

altor

Yes very similar, It is like using the cause and effect on the signet. If you have the time it is a good little project your working on.

Bruthal

altor wrote: »

Yes very similar, It is like using the cause and effect on the signet. If you have the time it is a good little project your working on.

Yes its an interesting one alright. Getting the 20ma switching that the chip can do, up to switching on and off an immersion in itself is an intersting project, although not too difficult. After the infra red switch which i want to make for an audio switching thing a made a while back, which i switch manually at present, an infra red controlled dimmer can be made. That certainly would be an interesting one.

Are you going to use the board you got in some of your own work?

altor

I just got it to mess with and see what it can do, no real project in mind. The infra red control would be a nice feature to add to your device.
You wont have to get out of the chair when you go home with all your controls if you keep going at it

Bruthal

Yea i was thinking that myself:)

Have a look at them yourself, pic microcontrollers, its the pic12f675 im using at the moment, a few of them i got. And pickit2 to program it. Not too difficult to use.

altor

You will have to make some up for fellow boards users

Bruthal

It was actually somones post here a few weeks ago showing a push button to run the immersion for an hour, a useful idea for use with already fitted mechanical clocks, that put the idea of making one in my mind. More curiosity than anything. I only have a mechancal timecock on my boiler, and its not working right, so thats the first place its going, a 1,2 and 4 hour button one id say. I could just buy one but wheres the fun in that.

Bruthal

Put the tv remote control operated switch together. Worked perfect. Set it up switching on and off a 60 watt bulb using a spare button on the tv remote. Although thats not what my use will be for it. Handy device though.

altor

Very good, You will have to build something that uses blue tooth or a wire free switch to control other objects now. Strike while the iron is hot

Bruthal

Yea that can be done alright.

altor

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea that can be done alright.

Just reading this, very interesting what can be done with the right know how

Bruthal

Yea its endless alright, there are a lot of project sites to look at.

DublinDilbert

That's good going Robbie, if your using a triac to drive the light, bring in the zero crossing of the mains via an opto coupler and you can dim it too.

I've spent a lot of time working with pic processors, shoot over any questions, I should be able to help.

Bruthal

Yes thats next, an opto isolator triac driver with zero crossing to drive a triac for a dimmer version soon. With a little capacitive transformerless power suppy for it.

The one i threw together today is just using a small transistor switching a relay.

DublinDilbert

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes thats next, an opto isolator triac driver with zero crossing to drive a triac for a dimmer version soon. With a little capacitive transformerless power suppy for it.

The one i threw together today is just using a small transistor switching a relay.

As your going non-isolated with the cap dropper circuit, you could just use a 1MOhm resistor for your zero cross detector :eek: Its done quite often in some designs from the far east. I prefer to use an opto to bring in the zero cross, then on the output side use drive an optical triac to drive the main triac.

I remember about 15 years ago writing the assembly software for a college project, it was a triac based variable speed drive for a motor. I had run the software and it worked fine with a signal generator as the zero cross input. But when we hooked up all the hardware in the lab the thing would just go crazy. After about 10 mins I coped that the lab had more than one phase, the zero cross was on one phase and the load on another. Plugged the zero cross out of one socked and into the same as the load and it ran away perfect!

Bruthal

DublinDilbert wrote: »

As your going non-isolated with the cap dropper circuit, you could just use a 1MOhm resistor for your zero cross detector :eek: Its done quite often in some designs from the far east. I prefer to use an opto to bring in the zero cross, then on the output side use drive an optical triac to drive the main triac.

For dimming an incandescent bulb, the zero crossing might not be needed? Or maybe the dim setting would not be stable with wave chopping at varying stages over time? Probably no problem with a simple heated filiament though.
So with the non isolated supply to the circuit, maybe no opto is needed anyway. Could probably use a miniature transformer instead anyway which might be better, and go the opto isolator route then. Its all an experiment at this stage.

I remember about 15 years ago writing the assembly software for a college project, it was a triac based variable speed drive for a motor. I had run the software and it worked fine with a signal generator as the zero cross input. But when we hooked up all the hardware in the lab the thing would just go crazy. After about 10 mins I coped that the lab had more than one phase, the zero cross was on one phase and the load on another. Plugged the zero cross out of one socked and into the same as the load and it ran away perfect!

Id say you must of been there wondering what the hell is happening here, for a few seconds anyway. Thats an interesting one alright.

DublinDilbert

robbie7730 wrote: »

For dimming an incandescent bulb, the zero crossing might not be needed? Or maybe the dim setting would not be stable with wave chopping at varying stages over time? Probably no problem with a simple heated filiament though.
So with the non isolated supply to the circuit, maybe no opto is needed anyway. Could probably use a miniature transformer instead anyway which might be better, and go the opto isolator route then. Its all an experiment at this stage.
Id say you must of been there wondering what the hell is happening here, for a few second anyway. Thats an interesting one alright.

You'll really need to know the zero-crossing if you want to dim the bulb, cause once the triac is turned on it will conduct till the end of that cycle.

If your compiler doesn't support interrupts you'll have to poll the zero cross input, then do a delay loop of x cycles, then fire the triac. The larger the value of x less of the waveform that will be seen by the bulb. I can't remember the 12F pic off hand, but i think you have Timer0 and maybe Timer1.

If your compiler supports interrupts, just set up an interrupt on one of the pins I/O pins and an interrupt on Timer0 overflow. When you get your zero cross interrupt load Timer0 with your delay value. Then when timer 0 over-flows, send a short pulse output to turn on the traic.

If you want to mess around with this on the bench, just take a 50Hz waveform off the secondary of a small trafo and use a couple of resistors and you have a zero cross circuit.

For large heating/cooking loads they don't like delaying and firing the triac, they typically do a PWM type arrangement, where they will turn the load on for X of the 50 mains cycles per second. So if its on for 1 cycle out of 50, you'll get 1/50th. of the power. This will give a much better power factor for large loads. But they still measure zero cross so they know when to fire the triac.

Bruthal

Yea i get what your saying alright, using a microcontroller for dimming, it will need to know when to fire the triac with reference to the zero point of the cycle every time it fires the triac to conduct.