Ireland vs Italy, Sun 2 Oct; Pre/During/Post Match Thread*mod warning post 38+482*

thomond2006

Ireland:
15 Rob Kearney, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Brian O'Driscoll (capt), 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Keith Earls, 10 Ronan O'Gara, 9 Conor Murray,
8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Sean O'Brien, 6 Stephen Ferris, 5 Paul O'Connell, 4 Donncha O'Callaghan, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy.

Replacements: 16 Sean Cronin, 17 Tom Court, 18 Donnacha Ryan, 19 Denis Leamy, 20 Eoin Reddan, 21 Jonathan Sexton, 22 Andrew Trimble.

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi, 14 Tommaso Benvenuti, 13 Gonzalo Canale, 12 Gonzalo Garcia, 11 Mirco Bergamasco, 10 Luciano Orquera , 9 Fabio Semenzato,
8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Mauro Bergamasco, 6 Alessandro Zanni, 5 Cornelius van Zyl, 4 Quintin Geldenhuys, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements: 16 Fabio Ongaro, 17 Andrea lo Cicero, 18 Marco Bortolami, 19 Paul Derbyshire, 20 Edoardo Gori, 21 Riccardo Bocchino, 22 Luke McLean.

Date: Sunday, October 2
Kick-off: 08:30 (Irish Time)
Venue: Otago Stadium, Dunedin

Referee: Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand), Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Ireland’s face their first ‘Cup Final’ of their Rugby World Cup journey when they face Italy on Sunday in the final game of Pool C. For the men in green this is a must win game to qualify for the quarter final. On the other hand Italy also need to win, giving this game a massive significance and an edge, which should be evident from the kick off. History suggests Italy will put enormous pressure on favourites Ireland in the set-piece and for the most part succeed in negating the prowess of the Irish backline by transforming the game into 80 minutes of trench warfare between both packs. Similarly to Argentina, Italy have adopted a strategy that makes the best use of their strengths. It is Ireland’s prerogative to stamp their authority early and dictate the pace of the game themselves.

It is strange to think Ireland require a win here to qualify for the quarter finals, having already beaten one of the tournament favourites Australia, but the missed opportunity that was the eluded bonus point against the US Eagles means this game takes on a huge significance. Now the Italian fixture becomes as important as the Australia match. Ireland’s facile win over Russia was simply a case of ‘getting the job done’. The objective was a bonus point win, that objective was realised, now it’s time to move on and find bigger fish to fry. Given the poor side Russia are, their trouncing at the hands of Ireland will bear little significance to Ireland’s prospects in this game.

Should Italy lose, this will be Nick Mallett’s last time in charge of the Azzurri (Jacques Brunel takes over following the tournament). In his four years as head coach Mallett has, for the most part, gotten results from a limited squad. Under his tutelage the Italian pack has become grizzled and ferocious and Sergio Parisse has developed into arguably the best number eight in the world. There has been a few heavy defeats away from home from time to time but Italy have become more competitive, but that has also come with the unfortunate tag of ‘plucky loser’, an infuriating label for the squad and management. This year Mallet’s reign reached its zenith as a fired up Italy disposed of France in March, earning their first victory over Les Bleus in the Six Nations Championship. It was one of France’s off days (which are numerous) but that didn’t concern the home side! Many a neutral fan celebrated as Italy delivered a result, not the typical good performance where it was ‘close, Italy, but no cigar’. Against Ireland, a similar end result won't suffice.

TEAM SELECTIONS

Murray and O'Gara have been given the nod to steer Ireland to a win.

Ireland

Ireland have made two changes from the first choice side from won against Australia two weeks ago. Conor Murray and Ronan O'Gara swap places with Eoin Reddan and Jonny Sexton, so the two Munstermen start at 9 and 10 with respectively with the Leinstermen providing backup on the bench. Paul O'Connell and Gordon D'Arcy start, having been injury doubts during the week.

Ronan O'Gara's elevation to a starting role was expected due to his assuredness in place kicking. Murray is a strange call given he has played only 20 minutes of rugby in the last 2 weeks, one would have expected Murray to get some gametime against Russia if the plan was to start him against Italy. He is a talented player but he has shown a natural inexperience at this level so far. The impact of Reddan and Sexton off the bench should prove crucial.

Italy

There is only one change to the side that gained a bonus point win over USA. Andrea Masi, 2011 Six Nations Player of the Year, returns from injury to start at fullback with Luke McLean dropping to the bench.

A potential dangerman for Italy, should they decide to give him some ball, is right wing Tommaso Benvenuti. Only 20 years old, the Treviso youngster possesses pace aplenty and many subtle skills. He was one of Treviso's stars druing their first season in the Magners League.

KEY BATTLE: THE SCRUM

Healy, Best and Ross face the unenviable task of negating the formidable trio of Perugini, Ghilardini and Castrogiovanni.

Nick Mallett has laid his cards on the table and focused the team’s attention on dominating Ireland at the scrum: "We know perfectly well we have a better front row than Ireland and we're hoping to prove that on Saturday. If our front row put us on the front foot, we can win the game. Ireland are a side who really played so well against Australia, so we've got to play really well. I'm hoping Castro (Martin Castrogiovanni), Leo (Leonardo Ghiraldini) and 'Doctor' (Salvatore Perugini) can put us on the front foot.”

Italy pride themselves in their capabilities at the dark arts of the scrum and they will target Ireland in this area. For Italy dominance in the scrum is paramount, it provides the halfbacks with quality ball and opportunities for their talisman Sergio Parisse to strut his stuff. Due to the emergence of Mike Ross, the scrum is now longer Ireland’s Achilles Heel. If Cian Healy and Ross can hold their own and at the very least achieve parity at scrum time, Italy’s attacking potency will be severely blunted. Healy has emerged as a world star so far in this World Cup and this will be a big litmus test of his scrummaging abilities.

Ireland’s scrummage has improved remarkably in terms of its discipline, the lack of early engagements and similar losses of concentration have allowed the Irish front row to fully contest possession. Moreover, against Australia all 8 Irish forwards put 110% into their pushing. However the Australian team, for all its talents, has never had a renowned scrum. Italian tighthead Martin Castrogiovanni has been a standard bearer for scrummaging for many years at club and international level, destroying front-row after front-row. Should the Italian pack control proceedings, their lift in confidence will be palpable and it could inspire many of their otherwise ordinary teammates to raise their game considerably.

PREDICTION:

Italy don’t have the quality in the backs to run the ball at Ireland’s normally staunch defence so they will try to frustrate Ireland by retaining possession for long periods and turn the game into a series of tedious breakdowns and set-pieces. From an Ireland perspective, it’s imperative they start the game strongly and score a try or two in the first half to kill off the Italian challenge early. This is the biggest game in four years for both sides and Italy’s honesty of effort will reflect that. Indiscipline has always been an issue for the Azzurri and in the past has proven to be their undoing. Should they concede numerous unnecessary or silly penalties, O’Gara will keep the scoreboard ticking over and the game will drift away from Italy’s grasp.

Due to the effort they normally need to put in to stay competitive in a game, the Italians tend to tire in the last 20 minutes and Ireland possess enough scoring proficiency to punish their opponents when the game reaches its latter stage. Ireland need to be ruthless and profit when opportunities present themselves. With the quality in Ireland's ranks, the aspiration should be to go far in this tournament and therefore this game should be, in their minds, little more than a tricky run out if they want to achieve something tangible at this tournament, much better teams lie in wait in the knockout stages. Ireland to win by 10-15 points.

Forsyth Barr Stadium, Otago. Capacity: 30,748

---

Player images taken from Sky Sports/Planet Rugby sources.

Lineups/Date&Time/Refs taken from Planet Rugby:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3558_7211699,00.html
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_7211800,00.html

Otago Stadium photo taken from Reuters. IRFU logo from irishrugby.ie, RWC logo from http://ninetyninecall.files.wordpress.com/ and FIR logo from www.irlandando.it

Everything else is my own work.

CouchSmart

It's a big chance for ROG. Last time he was given a go to cement the 10 jersey (Scotland and Wales in 6N) he kind of blew it, IMO. Against Wales anyway he pretty much reverted to type and kicked way too much. Will be interesting to see how he goes with a start. It's the right call starting him anyway, Sexton's kicking lost him his place in the starting lineup.

Murray is a strange call. Needs to be a major improvement from his performance against USA. The rest of the team is pretty much the 'starting' XV from now on.

jdooley28

I genuinely find your previews better than the pundits. Obvoiusly Murray/ROG is the big selection. I think its right call sextons kicking has been dodgy so far and ROG will be more comfortable with murray than reddan. Trimble will feel unlucky not to start. Can't wait for the game now and hope for another great display from the front 5 as it will be needed

savagecabbages

+1 big chance for O'Gara
Even bigger chance for his haters to jump down his throat if he doesn't perform brilliantly...
I expect Sexton to come on at some stage, a case of 'when' not 'if'... I hope at least one of our out halfs shows the top class form that they have in there somewhere!

If we can frustrate the Italians we'll do well. (i.e. first force then convert penalties early)

ALH-06

CouchSmart wrote: »

Murray is a strange call. Needs to be a major improvement from his performance against USA. The rest of the team is pretty much the 'starting' XV from now on.

I'm particularly concerned about Murray's lack of experience / hesitance at the base of a retreating or messy scrum, as demonstrated against the USA. Can't get away with that against the Italians.

Elsewhere, gutted for Trimble. I thought he was the best player on the pitch last weekend and did more than enough to earn a first start ahead of Earls.

Sexton & Reddan will make excellent impact subs for the final quarter!

petebricquette

savagecabbages wrote: »

+1 big chance for O'Gara
Even bigger chance for his haters to jump down his throat if he doesn't perform brilliantly...
I expect Sexton to come on at some stage, a case of 'when' not 'if'... I hope at least one of our out halfs shows the top class form that they have in there somewhere!

If we can frustrate the Italians we'll do well. (i.e. first force then convert penalties early)

I'm excited to see the impact Sexton will have coming into a game where he knows he's been dropped based on his kicking. I'd expect to see a lot of good distribution, clever breaks and big hits from him. He'll be fired up to make sure he can reclaim his spot on the XV for the knockout stages.

Murray is a bit of a worry though. Hasn't been tested at all really but then again; the coaches see a lot more than we would (training-wise at least).

Delighted ROG got his start. He deserves it. Class operator.

efb

Italy

Redden and Trimble would be my only two changes but I don't question El Decco!

Nerves shot- I think we'll win By 8-14 pts tho.

funky penguin

Thornely is reporting that injuries could still play a part, Bowe, POC and　Court are still iffy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0930/1224304999772.html

phog

Somewhat surprised that Murray got to start but delighted for him. The rest of team is bang on.

Can't wait for the game now.

yeraulone

love these posts. Keep up the good work.

C'mon Ireland!

almighty1

I hope Kaplan officiates the scrum properly. Just watch Perugini bore in on Ross time and time again :rolleyes:.

Murray certainly is a strange call, thought Reddan did a fine job in all of his matches.

thomond2006

Italy

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi, 14 Tommaso Benvenuti, 13 Gonzalo Canale, 12 Gonzalo Garcia, 11 Mirco Bergamasco, 10 Luciano Orquera , 9 Fabio Semenzato,
8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Mauro Bergamasco, 6 Alessandro Zanni, 5 Cornelius van Zyl, 4 Quintin Geldenhuys, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements: 16 Fabio Ongaro, 17 Andrea lo Cicero, 18 Marco Bortolami, 19 Paul Derbyshire, 20 Edoardo Gori, 21 Riccardo Bocchino, 22 Luke McLean.

dub_skav

Ryan and leamy again, sweet jesus.
Hard to argue with the o gara call, not so sure about murray and earls, reddan and trimble can feel rightly aggrieved.
I'm sure they'll all do us proud and knock the stuffing out of italy, can't wait now

bamboozle

i like the look of the team except for a few places,

happy enough to see ROG start, we cant let the Italians get a head of steam, all our chances need to be put away this means all pen's need to be kicked.

Murray - has shown nothing to warrant starting, 3 areas i'm concerned for him, he's slow arriving at rucks, poor game mgt as shown by him popping short to Healy v's oz when we had a 4 man overlap, poor kicking. I'm not saying he's a bad player but he certainly lacks experience at the top level. I'd be pretty certain Declan is picking him with one eye on the physical threat posed by Mike Phillips in the QF.
Leamy/Ryan on bench, if there are issues with POC's hammer, Cullen should be covering him on the bench with either Ryan/Leamy as backrow cover- given their displays last weekend(or lack there of in leamys case) ryan should be there.
Court on bench - might have a bearing on the game should either prop get injured, i'd have some faith in Court to do a job.

Its important we dont let Italy into the game, chances need to be taken, last thing we need is Italy at 60 mins thinking they have an opportunity, potentially it could be Mallet's last game in charge so he'll have them fired up. 10-15 point win for us.

thomond2006

Italy

dub_skav wrote: »

Ryan and leamy again, sweet jesus.

Ryan is a better impact player than Cullen and Jennings hasn't put his hand up to displace Leamy. I've no argument there.

If POC is ruled out, I'd have Cullen to start ahead of Ryan because it's a like for like replacement.

davegrohl48

Thomond2006 prematch previews are top class.
Even the formatting with photos is so well constructed. He also manages to avoid cliche journalism. Articles like that he could get a job as a sports journalist submitting articles over internet in any newspaper in the world. He should just use these previews as his CV.

Otacon

I will echo the praise here, thomond. Enjoyed reading the preview again.

As for the match, I think Kidney has gotten the team mostly right. Like everyone else, delighted for Murray but a bit shocked at his inclusion. Hopefully he takes the chance with both hands. Trimble can also feel hard done by, but I don't think Ealrs will let us down either.

Looking forward to the game now. I don't have that same apprehension for this that I get before most games. Not sure if thats a good thing!

dub_skav

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ryan is a better impact player than Cullen and Jennings hasn't put his hand up to displace Leamy. I've no argument here.

If POC is ruled out, I'd have Cullen to start ahead of Ryan because it's a like for like replacement.

seeing as poc is struggling I think cullen should be on the bench. I don't think leamy deserves it on performances to date.
However, if the game comes down to those selections then we're in the ****s

thebaz

I would have given POC more time to recover - win and Deccie will be fine, lose, nd he will be accused of a red tinged selection policy - i agree with ROG selection, on form , though his impact from bench will be missed - Trimble is very unlucky - ryan ahead of Cullen makes me wonder

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ryan is a better impact player than Cullen and Jennings hasn't put his hand up to displace Leamy. I've no argument here.

If POC is ruled out, I'd have Cullen to start ahead of Ryan because it's a like for like replacement.

I think the point is that Ryan is covering the second row when Paulie isn't 100% (which apparently is still the case). Given that Cullen is more of a like-for-like replacement he should be on the bench given Paulies condition?

The only issues I have outside of that is Murray at SH (the kid should be our first choice very soon but his inexperience right now I would have thought would have ruled him out of such an important game?), Trimble not starting (which I think he more than deserves at this stage, even though it would mean dropping Earls) and our centre cover. Neither centre is 100% and our cover is Sexton for 12 and Earls for 13. The last thing I'd want to see is both our OHs on the pitch at the same time for this big physical encounter. And Earls just isn't a 13.

Either way I still think this is one we will win. I'm really looking forward to the front-row battle. I just hope it doesn't cost us an injury!

thomond2006

Italy

molloyjh wrote: »

I think the point is that Ryan is covering the second row when Paulie isn't 100% (which apparently is still the case). Given that Cullen is more of a like-for-like replacement he should be on the bench given Paulies condition?

The only issues I have outside of that is Murray at SH (the kid should be our first choice very soon but his inexperience right now I would have thought would have ruled him out of such an important game?), Trimble not starting (which I think he more than deserves at this stage, even though it would mean dropping Earls) and our centre cover. Neither centre is 100% and our cover is Sexton for 12 and Earls for 13. The last thing I'd want to see is both our OHs on the pitch at the same time for this big physical encounter. And Earls just isn't a 13.

Either way I still think this is one we will win. I'm really looking forward to the front-row battle. I just hope it doesn't cost us an injury!

I really think if POC wasn't 100% they wouldn't risk him.

MrDerp

thomond2006 wrote: »

I really think if POC wasn't 100% they wouldn't risk him.

He probably does feel like he'll be 100%. I reckon he'll have a late fitness test and if POC is ready to start, Kidney will see no need for Cullen. If he thinks he won't make 40 mins - then you do a straight swap with Cullen. We've seen this before with fellas like Paddy Wallace, straight swaps from unnamed into the first 15, ignoring the 'utility' player (in this case, Wallace) on the bench.

Phonehead

Very surprised by the inclusion of Murray, I thought Reddan had finally nailed the starting spot. I think Trimble deserves his starting spot but it's obvious Kidney doesn't rate him. No Leo, if POC goes off early (he is carrying a knock after all) watch our lineout fall apart.

thomond2006

Italy

Phonehead wrote: »

Very surprised by the inclusion of Murray, I thought Reddan had finally nailed the starting spot. I think Trimble deserves his starting spot but it's obvious Kidney doesn't rate him. No Leo, if POC goes off early (he is carrying a knock after all) watch our lineout fall apart.

Just repeat "In Deccie We Trust" over and over and over....

mfceiling

Cullen must feel hard done by.

Here leo take the captain's armband against the worst side in the tournament.

Oh shit POC is injured - we need a proven winner and someone who has played at the highest levels with great leadership skills and a great rugby brain, anyone,anyone - can't think of anyone in the squad - oh sorry donnacha didn't see you there:rolleyes:

Delighted for Rog though and i reckon murray will be ok - he's a big lad and a bit of an unknown entity for the italians.

Dempsey

Tactical & tight game for 50-60 minutes, then go expansive for the finish making our fitness and superior defence really count

[Jackass]

Italy

I think the right number 10 has been picked, and the wrong number 9.

Murray has shown his experience a few times in this world cup, and while he's very good and has a great future ahead of him, I'm not sure he brings anything more than Boss and Reddan but lacks in areas where they are potentially better. I seem to recall Murray was caught in the Ireland 22 badly against Australia as he lemented over the ball, and was driven back 10 yards, turned over, and was followed by 10 minutes of sustained pressure on the Irish line.

It's great to give him an oppertunity, but let's not over do it. Kidney is strange in the sense that he gets his mits on some young players and sticks to them and throws them in and other young players he ignores entirely until they're Heineken Cup winners before they can get near the squad...

I hope this is a case of rotation to rest the other 9's, but is the only slightly foolish move imo, and hopefully the Irish back-row can dominate enough to take all the pressure off Murray, in which case I'm sure he'll have a good game, if not an unecessary chance to take.

The O'Gara / Sexton factor is interesting, I think for place kicking alone, RO'G must start, but I can't help but feel the back-line is infinitely more dangerous with Sexton at 10, I suppose it's a compromise over the style of rugby we want to play. ROG at 10 indicates to me a territory based game and taking the battle on upfront, whereas Sexton to me indicates a more adventurous game plan and using the back-line more to plug holes and play territory with possession. It's an interesting dynamic, right choice of player, wrong game plan for Italy? Where surely are ultimate dominance is in the backs... we'll see.

As for the other calls, more or less picks it's self, but my one bone of contention is with Kidney choosing the additional back-row cover of Ryan, whilst also covering the back-row with Leamy. I just feel Cullens set piece ability is so strong, that it seems bizzare to me that he's overlooked even for a bench spot, he's such a strong competitor in the lineout and strong at the breakdown, Ryans impact covering second row would be far lesser than that of Cullens, and Leamy is far stronger in the back-row, so it's almost choosing the mediocre player for an extra sense of security rather than having your best options available to you... but I still think our bench is a lot stronger and should be a big difference on the day.

I genuinely don't see Ireland being too troubled by this game though, the only real point of interest for the Italians to look to dominate is in the scrum, and even at that I feel their advantage is overstated and Ross and Healy will be ready for them, crucial that we get at least 70 minutes out of both of them though.

My prediction is a reasonably comfortable victory for Ireland, taking a one score lead early on and leaving Italy to chase the game for the remainder.

thomond2006

Italy

[Jackass] wrote: »

I think the right number 10 has been picked, and the wrong number 9.

Murray has shown his experience a few times in this world cup, and while he's very good and has a great future ahead of him, I'm not sure he brings anything more than Boss and Reddan but lacks in areas where they are potentially better. I seem to recall Murray was caught in the Ireland 22 badly against Australia as he lemented over the ball, and was driven back 10 yards, turned over, and was followed by 10 minutes of sustained pressure on the Irish line.

Heaslip could have taken it upon himself to pick the ball up himself and didn't. IMO he was equally at fault.

TheHighRoad

Some poor selections in my opinion.

If O'Connell is dodgy then surely you should have Cullen on the bench. What happens if O'Connell has to go off? Neither Ryan nor O'Callaghan can call a line out and neither are as proficient as Cullen in the air. Ridiculous decision.

Leamy over Jennings is another baffling choice. Leamy came on against the might of Russia and managed to be a complete penalty machine and even butchered a try by being selfish. Jennings on the other hand, was excellent at producing quick ball against America (see the difference when he came off) and even bagged himself a try against Russia!

It seems that Leamy and Ryan are favourites of Kidney's because they are certainly not there on merit.

Then theres Earls over Trimble, which is wrong again in my opinion. The question has to be asked - just what does Trimble have to do to start? He has outperformed Earls in every single game so far! He is better than Earls in defense, hes a better distributor, better at linking up and much better in open field. Earls seems irreplacable in Kidney's eyes.

Murray over Reddan....what is going on there? Don't give me the "extra bulk" excuse, because Reddan is actually heavier than Murray (despite being 2 inches shorter!) and had no problems handling Genia and the Australian backrow! I really don't understand it, Reddan has a superb game against Australia and loses his place to someone who had an o.k game against America (whilst making many errors) and a poor cameo against Australia (butchering a try, being so slow that Genia turned over the ball and AUS nearly scored, a missed one up tackle that could have been very costly). It is an absolutely ridiculous decision, Reddan has been performing very well..why? why? why?

Sexton being dropped is also the wrong decision. He is our best performing back (well other than Trimble who cant get his game) and has been playing excellent (kicking aside), hes missed 8 of which 6 were very difficult however that overlooks that O'Gara has only had 4 difficult kicks and he missed two of them (2 against Aus, 2 against Russia). This whole kicking is being blown way out of proportion, look at the other international's kicking percentages, and take out the directly under the post kicks and O'Gara is even at 50%. Not only that, but its showing complete lack of faith in the game plan that beat Australia, stupid.

Trimble should be ahead of Earls
Cullen should be ahead of Ryan
Jennings should be ahead of Leamy
Reddan should be ahead of Murray
Sexton should be ahead of O'Gara

Why on earth are sub standard players like Ryan (in the WC 22 despite having 1 HC start to his name), Leamy (penalty machine and one dimensional) and Murray (currently due to lack of experience, poor decision making, questionable defence and poor kicking) starting ahead of HC winners and all round better players? Why is Earls starting ahead of our best performing back? Why is O'Gara starting ahead of Sexton after a very average game against Russia of all teams?

Big Nelly

Italy

Im too angry to post a proper comment!!!!

Fireball07

Italy

Good stuff Thomond, excellent preview as always.

Can't argue with the team really, I thought Rog should start... Murray is probably questionable, Reddan has been good so far but I think he'll do well. And both Reddan and Sexton will probably be on for the last 20 minutes anyway, and will most likely make an impact.

Trimble over Earls probably should have been done...but before the tournament. Trimble was never going to come in after Earls got 2 tries against Russia and looked good against Australia too.

I think this team will do the job.

Big Nelly

Italy

I keep seeing posts about Murray should start, why? he nearly lost the Australia game and Redden was brilliant last season in HC. It is a joke, take off your Munster glasses Kidney for once!!!!!!! Leamy are you taking the pi**!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jackass]

Italy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Heaslip could have taken it upon himself to pick the ball up himself and didn't. IMO he was equally at fault.

I wouldn't agree, particularly in a defensive scenario, the burden of decision making is on your 9, it's a situation where you want to clear your lines, Murray needed to either take the box kick, send to the 10 to punt, and if it's unclean ball, tap Heaslip to pick and re-set up.

I think a 9's most important attributes are mental, a quick and decisive decision maker and excellent communicator, and I think that's where he was caught out. Of course, Heaslip can take some of the blame by making the decision for him, the ball was at the bottom of the ruck far too long and the counter rucking was ferocious, but that's Murrays call imo.

He's by no means a bad player, I think he'll be the future 9 for many years, but I just think Kidney is expecting too much from him, and giving him too much responsability, particularly with the other options available to him, who are both playing very well imo.

I don't think it will be a deciding factor in the game, but come the bigger teams in the later stages, the margin for error gets smaller and smaller, and I wouldn't trust Murray in those situations yet, such as starting a world cup final, so I don't see why he's been given the nod at this point. If he wanted an alternative to Reddan, Boss, who also has excellent physicality and ability to break would have been the better option.

TheHighRoad

To be honest, I reckon McGrath will be starting Irish scrumhalf within 3 years. I saw him only recently and he was quite simply, incredible.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Just repeat "In Deccie We Trust" over and over and over....

Despite the fact that we're doing well I'd only be lying if I said that tbh...

thomond2006 wrote: »

Heaslip could have taken it upon himself to pick the ball up himself and didn't. IMO he was equally at fault.

Heaslip and Murray were both going to have a hard time with that ball given the way the scrum was retreating. But Murrays decision to go right when he should have gone left off the back of it was far more important, and far more dangerous imo.

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Leamy over Jennings is another baffling choice. Leamy came on against the might of Russia and managed to be a complete penalty machine and even butchered a try by being selfish. Jennings on the other hand, was excellent at producing quick ball against America (see the difference when he came off) and even bagged himself a try against Russia!

It seems that Leamy and Ryan are favourites of Kidney's because they are certainly not there on merit.

I'm a huge fan of Jenno. He's been incredible for Leinster and one of our unsung heros in a lot of ways. And I don't think he's ever gotten a real break in the Irish scene, and so has never had a chance to show his wears. A couple of caps here and there with second string sides isn't enough.

That said he is a 7, and only a 7. He is not going to be able to fill in anywhere else in the backrow. You could say that's ok because we can move Seanie from 7 to either 6 or 8, but at the end of the day Leamy can cover 2 back-row positions to Jennos 1. Couple that with the fact that he has more international experience (rightly or wrongly) than Jenno and it's a fairly straight forward decision.

I'm also at this stage willing to put my hand up and say I was wrong about the balance in the back-row. The lads have proven that we don't need a traditional 7. Heaslip is doing a lot of the work and between the 3 of them there is enough going on at the breakdown to almost completely remove the need for a specialist 7.

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Then theres Earls over Trimble, which is wrong again in my opinion. The question has to be asked - just what does Trimble have to do to start? He has outperformed Earls in every single game so far! He is better than Earls in defense, hes a better distributor, better at linking up and much better in open field. Earls seems irreplacable in Kidney's eyes.

I reckon it's much of a much-ness between these 2. I do think Trimble should have started. Not because he's better than Earls or because there is anything wrong with the guy. But he deserves to be properly rewarded for his strong run of form. And with so little between himself and Earls he is as deserving of a starting place as Earls.

Not geting into the Sexton-ROG thing. Both are class, horses for courses, we'll win either way, yada, yada, yada....

colman1212

I think Murray is solid. There's no risk in starting him and he brings physicality to the table.

ROG had to start. Been playing extremely well. The 10 jersey was sextons and he played himself out of it through bad kicking. An outhalf needs to be able to kick consistently. Simple as.

I do feel sorry for trimble. I heard Alan Gaffney said something like earls is the most exciting back in austrailian rugby' according to foxtel over here so maybe its gaffney pushing to start earls ahead of trimble.

Happy with the team overall..Should be a great match. Flying into Dunedin 2mo morning!!!

snotboogie

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Some poor selections in my opinion.

If O'Connell is dodgy then surely you should have Cullen on the bench. What happens if O'Connell has to go off? Neither Ryan nor O'Callaghan can call a line out and neither are as proficient as Cullen in the air. Ridiculous decision.

Leamy over Jennings is another baffling choice. Leamy came on against the might of Russia and managed to be a complete penalty machine and even butchered a try by being selfish. Jennings on the other hand, was excellent at producing quick ball against America (see the difference when he came off) and even bagged himself a try against Russia!

It seems that Leamy and Ryan are favourites of Kidney's because they are certainly not there on merit.

Then theres Earls over Trimble, which is wrong again in my opinion. The question has to be asked - just what does Trimble have to do to start? He has outperformed Earls in every single game so far! He is better than Earls in defense, hes a better distributor, better at linking up and much better in open field. Earls seems irreplacable in Kidney's eyes.

Murray over Reddan....what is going on there? Don't give me the "extra bulk" excuse, because Reddan is actually heavier than Murray (despite being 2 inches shorter!) and had no problems handling Genia and the Australian backrow! I really don't understand it, Reddan has a superb game against Australia and loses his place to someone who had an o.k game against America (whilst making many errors) and a poor cameo against Australia (butchering a try, being so slow that Genia turned over the ball and AUS nearly scored, a missed one up tackle that could have been very costly). It is an absolutely ridiculous decision, Reddan has been performing very well..why? why? why?

Sexton being dropped is also the wrong decision. He is our best performing back (well other than Trimble who cant get his game) and has been playing excellent (kicking aside), hes missed 8 of which 6 were very difficult however that overlooks that O'Gara has only had 4 difficult kicks and he missed two of them (2 against Aus, 2 against Russia). This whole kicking is being blown way out of proportion, look at the other international's kicking percentages, and take out the directly under the post kicks and O'Gara is even at 50%. Not only that, but its showing complete lack of faith in the game plan that beat Australia, stupid.

Trimble should be ahead of Earls
Cullen should be ahead of Ryan
Jennings should be ahead of Leamy
Reddan should be ahead of Murray
Sexton should be ahead of O'Gara

Why on earth are sub standard players like Ryan (in the WC 22 despite having 1 HC start to his name), Leamy (penalty machine and one dimensional) and Murray (currently due to lack of experience, poor decision making, questionable defence and poor kicking) starting ahead of HC winners and all round better players? Why is Earls starting ahead of our best performing back? Why is O'Gara starting ahead of Sexton after a very average game against Russia of all teams?

I've just highlighted all of the stuff that is wrong in your post

justsomebloke

*mod warning. No Munster V Leinster crap, no trolling, no responding to trolls and please be civil

This is everyones first warning and bans will be forth coming so please don't say you weren't warned*

CJC86

colman1212 wrote: »

An outhalf needs to be able to kick consistently. Simple as.

An outhalf does not actually need to be able to kick consistently, see Stephen Larkham for example. I get the sentiment though, we need a kicker, and Sexton has been a bit dodge.

Madd Finn

How is expressing the very reasonable opinion that Trimble might be worthy of his place a case of "Leinster v Munster trolling"???


As I remember, he doesn't play for either province.

O'Connell does, and even though I happily concede that a fit O'Connell would be one of the first names on the team sheet, I think if there is a question mark over his fitness we could entrust Cullen with taking on the Italians. Later on in the tournament, we might need a fully rested and recuperated O'Connell.

Even against Wales!!!

Murray is worth the gamble. For as long as I can remember Ireland has struggled to produce top rate scrum halves. He lacks nothing in the way of confidence and has done well so far. He could be the exception to counter the rule that Irish people don't do number 9 well.

Mind you I've said that before. About Michael Bradley, and Niall Hogan, and Christian Saverimutto and that little fella Hegarty

....stop!!! I can't take these flashbacks!!!!!

pynchy

Wow... thomond2006

Excellent preview, its what caught my attention here sometime ago and is the one of the reasons why i keep checking back. As others have said you should really send all those off to someone they surpass the majority of newspaper articles around.

Ireland are undoubtedly going to win, the team is a professional outfit now with world class players in all positions and all are fully aware of the challenge that lies in this Italy game, they will be in the zone. Unlike Italy who do not have world class players in all positions.

One thing that i havent seen in the backs at all (and this could be due to coaching) is some special moves from set pieces. I mean if you look at Aus or NZ they all have some snazzy back line maneuvers, aside from the standard crosses and wingers coming in at angles. I was hoping, after not seeing anything in the warm ups, that they were saving them for the big games but nothing yet. << i could be wrong here >>

ambid

jdooley28 wrote: »

I genuinely find your previews better than the pundits...

Maybe this is off topic but does anybody else get annoyed by the endless banal cliches spouted by pundits and journalists? How often this weekend have you heard/ will you hear of the "Italian job" or the "perfect storm" or "kicking the can down the road" or the "elephant in the room"? For professional communicators to be so dependent on overused cliches is pretty disappointing.

As Vincent Browne asked a cliche spouting panellist this week "so are you saying the elephant in the room is kicking the can down the road?!" Talk sense people for crying out loud.

Thomond, you don't use nearly enough cliches to call yourself a pundit

Right. Rant over.

Quint2010

To lose POC would be huge. Just wondering would Deccie risk leaving him out if he's not 100% and gamble we would win the game anyway in order to have him 100% for next week.?

Sport101

ambid wrote: »

Maybe this is off topic but does anybody else get annoyed by the endless banal cliches spouted by pundits and journalists? How often this weekend have you heard/ will you hear of the "Italian job" or the "perfect storm" or "kicking the can down the road" or the "elephant in the room"? For professional communicators to be so dependent on overused cliches is pretty disappointing.

As Vincent Browne asked a cliche spouting panellist this week "so are you saying the elephant in the room is kicking the can down the road?!" Talk sense people for crying out loud.

Thomond, you don't use nearly enough cliches to call yourself a pundit

Right. Rant over.

Horses for courses.

andrewdcs

thomond2006 how DARE you give me goosebumps and get me all excited like that, I feel VIOLATED!


I think (massive sporting cliche alert) at the end of the day its about who scores first, if Ireland get 5 points up, Italy will really struggle and feel the game slipping away from early on. If its back and forth for the first half, it going to give everyone heart attacks.

I think Mallets being clever, as the scrums are very much 50/50 and with our backline I don't think we'll mind tieing their forwards up even if they have put in, i.e. Parisses threat off the back is not the difference, we've a (quiet with ball in hand thus far) certain Jamie Heaslip waiting to unleash marauding hell.

phog

For those of you who may whish to send a good luck message to the team MRSC have posted this on their facebook page.

Well wishes for the Team & Management can be emailed through to southerncross@scenichotels.co.nz in advance of Ireland’s final RWC 2011 pool match on Sunday.

C'mon Ireland

pynchy

I think Jamie is just getting tied up in a lot of work (which he is doing quite well) while Ferris and SOB are free to do the running.

Quint2010

seriously concerned about the chopping and changing at 9 and 10. I can live with the ROG call but Murray ahead of Reddan? Its a huge call by Kidney. Its reward free risk..

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

To lose POC would be huge. Just wondering would Deccie risk leaving him out if he's not 100% and gamble we would win the game anyway in order to have him 100% for next week.?

IMO this is exactly what he should do; DK's been sailing pretty close to the wind in terms of playing guys who are not fully fit and now would be a bad time for it to bite him in the ass. We don't need POC against Italy, we should win with Cullen but I'd feel a lot better going up against Wales with him fully fit and raring to go.

thomond2006

Italy

Big Nelly wrote: »

Leamy are you taking the pi**!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should Jennings be there ahead of him?

TheHighRoad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why should Jennings be there ahead of him?

Hes played better than Leamy?

Against America the difference to the pace of the ball when he came off was ridiculous. Against Russia both Leamy and Jennings were on the pitch. Leamy gave away a load of penalties and butchered a try, Jennings was linking up well and scored a try.

Jennings offers something different, Leamy is like SOB/Ferris except nowhere near as effective.

Playing a team that is known for slowing down ball means Jennings is more needed than Leamy.

thats it in a nutshell.