changing a house plan during a time extension ???

bertie 56

Hello everybody,

( My excuses first to the moderator(s) if this thread is not at his place.
I was hesitating to put it in "planning issues".
Please proceed if it's his better place. Thanks. )

I have a simple question : Is it possible to change the plans of the house in the 5 years-time extension period ?

I have a planning permission valid for a big house until 2016.
I've applied for an extension of time for this house and I got it last June .
I'm now in this 5 years time extension period.
I've apply for a permission to change the plans of the house ( for smaller, and way more energy efficient )

I got some bad news yesterday : my application will be rejected, the planner decided that it's not possible to change the plans of the house in the 5 years time extension period.:eek:

The engineer in charge didn't know that.
Some of his collegues says it's true.
Other collegues says it's not true...
Some others don't know, and had lodged few applications similar, without answers yet, and are getting worried...

Is anybody here had a similar experience ? Informations about this ?


Many thanks in advance !!!

BryanF

bertie 56 wrote: »

Hello everybody,

( My excuses first to the moderator(s) if this thread is not at his place.
I was hesitating to put it in "planning issues".
Please proceed if it's his better place. Thanks. )

I have a simple question : Is it possible to change the plans of the house in the 5 years-time extension period ?

I have a planning permission valid for a big house until 2016.
I've applied for an extension of time for this house and I got it last June .
I'm now in this 5 years time extension period.
I've apply for a permission to change the plans of the house ( for smaller, and way more energy efficient )

I got some bad news yesterday : my application will be rejected, the planner decided that it's not possible to change the plans of the house in the 5 years time extension period.:eek:

The engineer in charge didn't know that.
Some of his collegues says it's true.
Other collegues says it's not true...
Some others don't know, and had lodged few applications similar, without answers yet, and are getting worried...

Is anybody here had a similar experience ? Informations about this ?


Many thanks in advance !!!

my understanding is: you have planning permission, the extension time period imho is irrelevant.
with the exception of minor alterations, if you wish to change the external appearance or floor area then you will generally require a fresh planning application. end off.
as regards your eng and the advice you seem to be getting, it all sound a bit haphazard
most archs/Arch techs would have the cop-on to contact and liaise with the planner/development control before submitting such an application. you need different repesentation

Poor Uncle Tom

As BrianF says changing house plans is a new planning application, but there is no reason it wouldn't be granted, once the design is acceptable.

Out of curiosity what planning authority are you dealing with?

No6

But the op says he has applied for a change of house plans or a change of house type as it is know around here, its no problem within the five years of an original planning so what is the issue with the extended permissions, appeal to the board and let them decide!! Your original planning is still valid until the time period is up.

muffler

As stated above there's nothing in the legislation to prevent anyone from applying for a change of house type during the lifetime of a planning permission. If its going to be refused then it has nothing to do with the fact that you are in an "extended time period"

Wait for the refusal to arrive and let us know the reasons cited for refusing it. You will of course have the right to appeal to ABP and regardless of the outcome you can still fall back on the original permission.

bertie 56

Hi everybody,
Thanks for all your answers.

For giving more precisions, the engineer got a phone call from the planner one day before the due-date , saying that the application will be refused because " a change of house plan in the 5 years-time extension period is impossible " .
So far, nothing written came out of the planner' office.
The engineer gave a few phone calls to others engineers, etc... but nobody seems to know the right answer .
In another hand, the 5 years-time extension period is quite a new thing, and even the best guy can't know everything...

According to him, as say Muffler, there is nothing in the legislation preventing this.

We have withdrawn the application for a month, to have time to take some informations around.

I believed aswell that " there is no reason the permission wouldn't be granted, once the design is acceptable"
As far as I know, they haven't talk about the design.

In a way, I'm looking forward to see the official refusal...:D
Some more job for ABP, for sure...


PS : another reason was given : " we don't give anymore new planning permission in this area ". I can still build the old design, so what does it change ???

I'm in Co Galway.

Thanks again !

BryanF

bertie 56 wrote: »

" we don't give anymore new planning permission in this area ". I can still build the old design, so what does it change ?

well there you go, stick with what you've got

bertie 56

I will stick with the old plan if the new one can't be approved, this for sure...
But I just wanted to know is the reason of refusal is " legal " or not.
Thanks everybody, I 'll tell you more about this when I'll know.

BryanF

bertie 56 wrote: »

I will stick with the old plan if the new one can't be approved, this for sure...
But I just wanted to know is the reason of refusal is " legal " or not.
Thanks everybody, I 'll tell you more about this when I'll know.

bureaucracy
Bertie, your being feed a line, but that is not to suggest that this is not the the correct line....just what you have told us here seems a bit suspect...

Poor Uncle Tom

BryanF wrote: »

bureaucracy
Bertie, your being feed a line, but that is not to suggest that this is not the the correct line....just what you have told us here seems a bit suspect...

That or some planning officer who doesn't like your plans is trying to end your application.

BryanF

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

That or some planning officer who doesn't like your plans is trying to end your application.

the op did speak of an eng involvement..

bertie 56

Hi everybody,
Thanks for all your replies, it's really a great help !
Some more news, I 've got the written planner's report, with the reason of refusal .
Here is the copy of the reason :
NB: It's an accurate copy, mistakes included ...

" The Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010 does not allow for a change of house plans to a permission that has been extended under an Extension of Duration.
Section 28 (6) states ' Where a decision to extend is made under this section, section 40 shall, in relation to the permission to which the decision relates, be constructed and have effect, subject to, and in accordance with, the terms of the decision'

This application therefore has to be treated as a new application on the site and all the requirements in relation to hosing need, EPA, sightlines etc. will apply. "


So, few questions :
1)what to think of it ???? ?
2) if you replace the word " constructed" by the word " construed " as it's written in the original Act, does the sentence makes more sense to you ?

Thanks a lot.

Bertie

( A last question, for the craic : How hard is to prove a hosing need ? Everybody knows that watering the garden with buckets is a pain, and I just need a 10 meters hose , enough to go from the tap to the plants... )

Corkblowin

All the extension of time is doing is moving the expiry date, so all the options you have normally still apply once its granted.

So, rather than apply for a new house under a new application, why not apply "to vary dwelling permitted under reg no XXX by reducing length by X, width by x......etc " and then list the changes. Its a pain and may result in you needing to tweak your new design so that its still somewhat recognizable as the permitted design, but harder to refuse.

We had to do something similar a few years ago to get over a Part V obligation. Its pedantic, but no more so than the guys who won't give you a new permission. The only thing is that the original expiration date will remain the same as you're varying the existing permission, not getting a new 5 year life.

Of course they may impose new conditions, but if there are too onerous then you can appeal, or else simply build to the permission you have now.

sydthebeat

Im very interested in this as i have a client who is in the exact same position.
Has permission for a large dwelling, planning running out next year, and wants to change design.

We havent applied for permission to extend time yet.

If we are unable to change the design then that changes tact altogether.

As you have noted, what the planner has referred to as "constructed" is actually "construed" in the act !!!

So in effect he is clearly incorrect in his understanding of this section of the act. However, as the decision has been made, your only course of action is to appeal to the Bord. I think a strong argument can be made to show the decision the planner made was based on an incorrect reading of the planning amendment act. in the meantime, i will be doing some of my own investigations into this and ill post here when i know more.


Interestingly, the planning authority retain the right to change the conditions of planning of the 'parent' permission on decision of this 'extension' application while, according to your planner, denying you the right to alter the subject of the permission, a right which you have in the standard case.... ???

sydthebeat

just had it confirmed by my LA that it i snot permitted to alter any aspect of an application during the 'extended' time period.

very interesting....

sinnerboy

bertie 56 I think you have a strong case to appeal this decision.

When the council state that the P+D Act 2010 says " The Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010 does not allow for a change of house plans to a permission that has been extended under an Extension of Duration" and then point to Section 28 (6) to back this up they are misrepresenting the actual meaning of Section 28 (6). They are flat wrong.

This is what Section 28(6) actually states

(6) Where a decision to extend is made under this section, section 40 shall, in relation to the permission to which the decision relates, be construed and have effect, subject to, and in accordance with, the terms of the decision.

And what it means is that Section 40 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 still applies to the extension-of-duration-of-period decision.

This is what Section 40 of the P+D Act 2000 says.

40.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a permission granted under this
Part, shall on the expiration of the appropriate period (but without
prejudice to the validity of anything done pursuant thereto prior to
the expiration of that period) cease to have effect as regards—
(a) in case the development to which the permission relates is
not commenced during that period, the entire development,
and
(b) in case the development is commenced during that period,
so much of the development as is not completed within
that period.
(2) (a) Subsection (1) shall not apply—
(i) to any permission for the retention on land of any
structure,
(ii) to any permission granted either for a limited period
only or subject to a condition which is of a kind
described in section 34(4)(n),
(iii) in the case of a house, shop, office or other building
which itself has been completed, in relation to the
provision of any structure or works included in the
relevant permission and which are either necessary
for or ancillary or incidental to the use of(iv) in the case of a development comprising a number of Pt.III S.40
buildings of which only some have been completed,
in relation to the provision of roads, services and
open spaces included in the relevant permission and
which are necessary for or ancillary or incidental to
the completed buildings.
(b) Subsection (1) shall not affect—
(i) the continuance of any use, in accordance with a permission,
of land,
(ii) where a development has been completed (whether
to an extent described in paragraph (a) or
otherwise), the obligation of any person to comply
with any condition attached to the relevant permission
whereby something is required either to be
done or not to be done.
(3) In this section and in section 42, ‘‘the appropriate period’’
means—
(a) in case in relation to the permission a period is specified
pursuant to section 41, that period, and
(b) in any other case, the period of five years beginning on the
date of the grant of permission.

In summary a detailed rundown on the expiry period for permissions.

Or to put it another way - an extension of duration of period granted under P+D Act 2010 is still bound by the requirements of Section 40 of P+D Act 2000.

Absolutely nothing in any of these quoted texts to indicate one cannot apply to change the house type.

Corkblowin

sydthebeat wrote: »

just had it confirmed by my LA that it i snot permitted to alter any aspect of an application during the 'extended' time period.

very interesting....

I think (hope!!) what they mean here is that the extension is simply allowing extra time to build to the permission granted. In the same way that you cannot just make changes at will during the 5 years you cannot apply for an extension and change the design at the same time. They are 2 separate procedures. As I said above, there is nothing to stop you applying to vary the permission or apply for for a new one once the extension has been granted.

Just to reassure that we're not the problem here, I was speaking to a well-respected and well known planning consultant last week who said that he visited 3 LA's in one day regarding extensions of time and it was as if they were reading 3 different pieces of legislation!

sinnerboy

Indeed . Local authorities have "the upper hand" in having the power to interpret legislation. In the case of the OP , it seems it would help if they actually read the words properly.

Corkblowin

Well an issue the OP has now is that they've made their case and can't go back without losing face - unfortunately this is a consideration.

It is possible to argue, but you need to be on the ball and have your procedures correctly lined up. Without knowing exactly what the OP applied for and how precisely it was worded its hard to comment exactly on the best way to go.

sinnerboy

Corkblowin wrote: »

All the extension of time is doing is moving the expiry date, so all the options you have normally still apply once its granted.

Nicely put - I agree

And

sinnerboy wrote: »

bertie 56 I think you have a strong case to appeal this decision.

My reading of the OP's OP is he applied for his extension of duration which he got and then applied to vary the house type which he did not.
And he can appeal the refusal.

Corkblowin

sinnerboy wrote: »

My reading of the OP's OP is he applied for his extension of duration which he got and then applied to vary the house type which he did not.
And he can appeal the refusal.

Yes he can - however I wasn't sure reading the OP if he applied to vary or did he make an entirely new application?

Like I said earlier, if you can describe the alterations you wish to apply for it makes it harder for the LA to pull in other items and refuse you on those reasons.

What I find hard to understand is that if the dwelling would now not comply with the any new development plans or standards then the LA would be within their rights to have refused any extension of time - so why now refuse a new dwelling. Seems like an LA planner who's out of control - did you run over his dog or something OP

bertie 56

Hi everybody,

Thanks for all your replies and for the time spend.
You are giving me some good energy and some good reasons to "keep fighting " !

So far, nothing is 100% lost. As stated before, the enginneer has withdrawned the application for a month,with a hope to find some arguments for us. So I suppose the planner can still change his mind for the final report.( this is my target ! )

If not, I'm highly motivated to go to ABP.

You are right, Sinnerboy, I applied for an extension of duration which I got and then applied to vary the house type which I did not.

So, yes, the engineer did a new application, but not a full one , just for changing the plans. ( " PERMISSION for change of house plan and change of garage plan ). He didn't mention the sight distances or EPA..., etc... as this is still valid in the first planning permission, until 2015.

The planner hasn't talk at all about the design of the house or other things.
He just get blocked with this section 28.

I've recently spotted the same situation ( full planning granted in 2005, 5 years extension of duration granted in 2010, and change of design granted in 2011 ) in my County, signed 5 months ago by the same planner who refuse my application !!!
Strange, no ???:eek:
( I can PM the planning number, if someone is interested.)

For Sydthebeat, are you talking about the 5 years 'extended' time period ?
In which County are you ? Did they gave you any reasons / text of law about this ? Thanks.

Thanks for your solution, Corkblowing ( "to vary dwelling permitted under reg no XXX by reducing length by X, width by x......etc " ) .


Just a detail here, the new plan of the house is pretty similar to the old one, but smaller with some differences in the "accessories" , (no porch, different place for the conservatory, no dormers, different windows ).The construction is different aswell, from concrete blocks with 65 mm insulation, to timber frame at a passive standards ( 210mm insulation in walls ).
All this just for saying that I don't ask for a double of size house and making a more polluting one !
The design is very common, nothing fancy at all.
I don't get why this is not taken in consideration !... :mad:

sydthebeat

bertie 56 wrote: »

For Sydthebeat,
1 are you talking about the 5 years 'extended' time period ?

2 In which County are you ?
3 Did they gave you any reasons / text of law about this ? Thanks.

1. yes
2. laois
3. no, simply a phone call to planing admin who referred to planner.

bertie 56 wrote: »

I've recently spotted the same situation ( full planning granted in 2005, 5 years extension of duration granted in 2010, and change of design granted in 2011 ) in my County, signed 5 months ago by the same planner who refuse my application !!!
Strange, no ???
( I can PM the planning number, if someone is interested.)

id be interested bertie, thanks.
very strange that it was the same planner.....

bertie 56

I keep you informed when I have more news ( hopefully good ones ! )
Have a nice week-end everybody

RKQ

Interesting thread. It makes sense that a planning permission can't be changed once its extended. It seems that any changes sought to the original permission must be granted prior to applying for an extension period.
No doubt ABP will need to give clarity.

Casati

Why doesnt the OP just lodge a complete new planning application? Developers have been doing this for years- i.e. get planning for 2 houses, then apply via a fresh application for 4 houses on the same site etc.
I had the same issue with DCC re changing an existing application- they told me to submit a completely new application instead an let it stand on its own merit - the additional cost is only the ad in the newspaper

The other option is to review the current plans and see if the OP could modify the internal layout- e.g. if its a dormer he/she could decide to leave the attic space unfinished, you can probably get away with not building an annex or conservatory room and applying for a cert stating the house is substantially incompliance with planning post build

bertie 56

Hello,
A complete new planning application is more job to be done, more expensive, and more details the planner can refuse.:rolleyes:
You can aswell loose the benefits of some clauses, if any, for exemple.
The Casati's second option can be a solution, thanks for this.

" It makes sense that a planning permission can't be changed once its extended ".
I don't agree with this when you know why the 5 years time extension was primary made for : to let people the time to gather money to do the job.
But times changed, less money in the pockets, i think people have the right to adjust the house with their income , and their needs aswell !
Let's take someone who , in 2005, had the income to build a 4000 sq.ft house but didn't build it. If he doesn't have this income in 2011, why the hell forcing him to build so big ?

Building techniques are changing aswell, as do environment consciousness.
I find stupid not to allow to adjust to this neither.
You can be left in 2015, with no other choices than to build at a 2005 design !
( one year ago, I was about to get a site with a 2005 planning on it . The conservatory on the plan was on one gable, facing north ! Yes, North !!! If today i can't change this design and put it in the South gable, I find it's pure madness !!! IMO...:o )

sinnerboy

Agreed . It makes sense that you CAN seek a change of house type , whether in the extended period or not. Quite often permissions are sought by persons with no intention of ever building , an exercise to increase the site value. The purchaser can - and should be able to - seek permission for a house type change.

sinnerboy

RKQ wrote: »

It seems that any changes sought to the original permission must be granted prior to applying for an extension period.

With respect - nothing posted on this thread so far to suggest that. Apart from a planners failure to properly read the actual text of the legislation.

muffler

I dont see anything in the regs to prevent anyone looking for a change of house type during the lifetime of the permission nor do I agree with anyone saying that it makes sense that a planning permission cant be changed after its been extended.

The lifetime of the permission in this instance is 10 years and Id love for someone to point out the difference between applying in year 1 or year 6

Poor Uncle Tom

There is absolutely nothing in the legislation to stop anyone looking for a change of house type within the life span of the planning permission, whether that is 5 years or extended to 10 years.

The following comment seemed to be made as a throw away point but I would like to pick up on it because it typifies the lack of understanding out there about the amount of work in an application.

Casati wrote: »

....they told me to submit a completely new application instead an let it stand on its own merit - the additional cost is only the ad in the newspaper

Does that mean you just submit the newspaper ad on its own and let the council judge a planning application on that alone?
Of Course not, in order to get any planning application through validaton you will need to submit a host of information, some in duplicate and some in a half dozen sets, if your old application was not tested under the EPA Code of Practice (and if the original application was 5 years ago, it wasn't tested to the EPA Code of Practice) then a full site characterisation report will need to be carried out, you will need an Ordnance Survey's Planning Pack or the equivolent, proof of housing need, justification of the house, updated planning application forms and site notice will need to be completed and of course there is the Local Authorities planning application fee,.........and all of this ever before we get to the change of house type.

the additional cost is only the ad in the newspaper........yeah, right!

Corkblowin

Not having a go Bertie, but must comment on one or 2 things.

bertie 56 wrote: »

" It makes sense that a planning permission can't be changed once its extended ".
I don't agree with this when you know why the 5 years time extension was primary made for : to let people the time to gather money to do the job.
But times changed, less money in the pockets, i think people have the right to adjust the house with their income , and their needs aswell !
Let's take someone who , in 2005, had the income to build a 4000 sq.ft house but didn't build it. If he doesn't have this income in 2011, why the hell forcing him to build so big ?

I'm afraid thats not entirely true. Up until the 2010 Amendment Act financial circumstances were not taken into account when assessing an extension of time. If substantial works were not completed you'd almost certainly have been refused and have to apply afresh. The five year limit is there to ensure works get completed in a reasonable timeframe. Theres no-one forcing an applicant to build a big house - and it doesn't take 5 years to build a dwelling. If the applicant didn't have the finances to commence construction for the house applied for then he shouldn't have applied for it.

bertie 56 wrote: »

Building techniques are changing aswell, as do environment consciousness. I find stupid not to allow to adjust to this neither.
You can be left in 2015, with no other choices than to build at a 2005 design !

Once the external cladding materials are as per the planning permission, the planning authorities generally have no issues with the substructure. Planning is to assess whether a dwelling should be located in this location or not, and what conditions need to be applied if it is. Whether is built in block, timber frame, steel frame or whatever do not concern them.

bertie 56 wrote: »

one year ago, I was about to get a site with a 2005 planning on it . The conservatory on the plan was on one gable, facing north ! Yes, North !!! If today i can't change this design and put it in the South gable, I find it's pure madness !!! IMO...:o )

I agree totally that once a dwelling has been granted a permission, and the circumstances such as development plan, EPA guidelines etc have not changed, then it should be possible to apply to make reasonable alterations or change the house type. I'm sure you didn't mean that you should just be allowed to change it as you wish. In that case I would criticise the planner for not picking up a conservatory on a north gable, but the blame lies primarily with the applicant and his 'designer'.

Casati

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing in the legislation to stop anyone looking for a change of house type within the life span of the planning permission, whether that is 5 years or extended to 10 years.

The following comment seemed to be made as a throw away point but I would like to pick up on it because it typifies the lack of understanding out there about the amount of work in an application.
Does that mean you just submit the newspaper ad on its own and let the council judge a planning application on that alone?the additional cost is only the ad in the newspaper........yeah, right!

Fair enough comment- and well made. Of course I am incorrect in stating the ad is the only extra cost- however the point I was badly making was that to submit a change to the planning you will already be incurring significant cost as you will have to employ an architect to re-design etc, and its here that the major cost is incurred, as indeed are some of the items you mention below inc copies of drawings etc. As such, from a cost perpective the extra cost for a full submission might not be in percentage terms much higher than a re-submission.

I mis-read that the OP was Dublin Council area- where such things like housing need and proof of being part of the locality are not required, but you are correct to -resubmitting in other councils can open up a raft of additional requirements which could require a big commitment to go through

Poor Uncle Tom

...the additional cost is only the ad in the newspaper...

Director of services of a LA in the south east made the same comment a couple of years ago at a meeting with a client of mine, a councillor and myself. By the end of the meeting he knew exactly what was entailed in a re-application as well as being reminded who ultimately pays his wages (and those comments came from the councillor).

bertie 56

Hello there !

Some more news...
I got the final answer : refused !

Same and only reason :

"The Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010 does not allow for a change of house plans to a permission that has been extended under an Extension of Duration
Section 28 (6) states ' Where a decision to extend is made under this section, section 40 shall, in relation to the permission to which the decision relates, be constructed and have effect, subject to, and in accordance with, the terms of the decision'
This application therefore has to be treated as a new application on the site ...etc... "

They didn't take into account my arguments ( similar case granted 5 months ago, smaller and better energy-efficient house, "strange" legal reason...).

What next ? Offering them a hearing-aids device ?;)
Going to An Bord Pleanala ?
What could be my chances there ?

Any help welcome !:)

Bertie

bertie 56

Hello everybody,

One year after, what news ?

Well, I did appeal in An Bord Pleanala and won the case.

Now the house is build, another adventure is starting !

If anyone is in the same situation as I was before, feel free to PM me, I'll do my possible to help.

Thanks a lot to everybody who did help me in this thread...

muffler

Truly delighted for you bertie and fair play to you for having the balls to hang in there and fight your corner. Well done.

Its also nice to note that most of the techies who posted in this thread made the right call and the Bord, having reviewed this thread, agreed with us and granted the permission