Shooters upon my lands without my permission?

Stinicker

I found shooters upon my land this week without my permission hunting and what drove me mad altogether was when I confronted them they said they had been given permission, but refused to tell me who told them they could hunt upon my lands. I told them it had not come from me the landowner and to immediately get off my private property, which they did without confrontation.

I immediately ordered them off the property and told them never to return, I am very aggrieved that some one would come onto my property and discharge firearms against the wildlife that happens to live upon my own private property.

I allow one man to shoot pheasant and he has a good relationship with me and he will always tell me when and where he is going beforehand and is very sound, I don't mind him as he always asks and will often help out my father and I during the winter in our many crusades against foxes which cause havoc with the lambs.

I am very pro Gun but anti blood sport and only believe in shooting animals causing a problem like foxes or the occasional weakling Deer to preserve the breed and keep the herd strong. I told these hunters if I caught them on my lands again I would be reporting them to the Gardai for trespassing and hunting on my lands without my permission.

I would have reported them there and then only I feel I gave them fair warning, and they might have their guns confiscated over it because they said they had been given permission as some other person might have told them it was OK when it very much wasn't; although I reckon it was lies and they just decided to go shooting wherever they felt like. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, with alot of doubt in that though.

Anybody come across something like this before?

Hunter21

Basically what you done so far was ok, everyone deserves one chance. If I was you what id do is draw up a written permission giving access to the one and only fella that is allowed on your land, back date it to whenever you gave him the permission.
Then print another one to show the poachers, demand the lads in question to show you their written permission, obviously it would be wise to call the gardai if they attempt to shoot your land again. Show the guards that the legally allowed shooters on your land have written permission. The poachers would be in a deep hole then!
Or else put up signs around your land stating "Anyone tresspassing without permission will be prosecuted" can be bought in most co ops
Worked for an uncle of mine, but remember its dangerous to confront armed men

Traumadoc

Post some signs if you have not already. That way there can be no confusion.

People may think they have permission , but may be in the wrong field.

Mountainy Jack

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. To be honest I wouldn't think that a third party gave them permission, I would think they were just trying to pull a fast one hoping you were not the landowner! I wouldn't think they will be back again in a hurry. If this starts to become a problem I would stick up some signs saying trespassers will be prosecuted.

Cass

Stinicker wrote: »

I am very pro Gun but anti blood sport and only believe in shooting animals causing a problem like foxes or the occasional weakling Deer to preserve the breed and keep the herd strong.

So you're anti "bloodsport", but yet .............

I allow one man to shoot pheasant .........

Seems contradictory.

I told these hunters if I caught them on my lands again I would be reporting them to the Gardai for trespassing and hunting on my lands without my permission.

Correct course of action.

I would have reported them there and then only I feel I gave them fair warning, and they might have their guns confiscated over it because they said they had been given permission as some other person might have told them it was OK when it very much wasn't; although I reckon it was lies and they just decided to go shooting wherever they felt like. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt, with alot of doubt in that though.

As the land owner only you can give sporting rights to someone. So now that you've given them the benefit of the doubt no more chances. Simple as.

rowa

You maybe able to get trail cameras if you are worried about them or others coming back and shooting while you're not about , if you have pics to show the gardai they might be able to get to the bottom of who is "allowing" shooters to come onto your land.

Stinicker

Originally Posted by Stinicker
I am very pro Gun but anti blood sport and only believe in shooting animals causing a problem like foxes or the occasional weakling Deer to preserve the breed and keep the herd strong.

So you're anti "bloodsport", but yet .............

Quote:
I allow one man to shoot pheasant .........


Seems contradictory.

Not really, just because I personally don't believe in it doesn't give me the right to stop other people doing it elsewhere with the exception of my own lands of course. The trespassers I found were after my wild deer and these are off limits and the guy I allow shoot is an elderly chap with a shotgun who shoots the odd pheasant or woodcock and he has been shooting the land and fishing in the river for years so I wouldn't want to go stopping him now in his last few years. Its a different story to find 4 unknown strange shooters on your property and the thing that alerted me was the sound of shots when I just happened to drive into the place to keep an eye on things.

Cass

Stinicker wrote: »

Not really, just because I personally don't believe in it doesn't give me the right to stop other people doing it elsewhere with the exception of my own lands of course.

Thats a refreshing change of attitude than i'm used to. :cool:

Its a different story to find 4 unknown strange shooters on your property and the thing that alerted me was the sound of shots when I just happened to drive into the place to keep an eye on things.

I would still go to the local Garda station and ask them to record the incident. That way if it happens again there is a record that you reported it before and its a re-occuring probelm. Meaning the Gardai would have to take it seriously.

fodda

You dont have to do a thing, it is your land and you are entitled to your beliefs and opinions whatever they be.

It is the shooter who has to find out exactly where his permissions are and stick to them, if he needs to enter your land he needs to ask you first and certainly not wonder around where he like or thinks he can no matter who told him anything.

You do not have to go to the expense or trouble of putting any signs up.

Cass

fodda wrote: »

You do not have to go to the expense or trouble of putting any signs up.

What harm could it do?

If there are signs then it only reinforces the OPs case that he does not allow shooting on his lands.

robertpatterson

Stinicker wrote: »

Not really, just because I personally don't believe in it doesn't give me the right to stop other people doing it elsewhere with the exception of my own lands of course. The trespassers I found were after my wild deer and these are off limits and the guy I allow shoot is an elderly chap with a shotgun who shoots the odd pheasant or woodcock and he has been shooting the land and fishing in the river for years so I wouldn't want to go stopping him now in his last few years. Its a different story to find 4 unknown strange shooters on your property and the thing that alerted me was the sound of shots when I just happened to drive into the place to keep an eye on things.

Your wild deer?
Bit of a contradiction no?
If theyre wild surely they dont belong to anyone

One shot on kill

sorry to hear about your troubles

maybe just maybe they have permission on land beside you and ended up crossing over unknown to them

doent mean its ok either all the same

and lads remember you cant be prosacuted for trespassing its what you do when you are trespassing either way they are in trouble if reported

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

and lads remember you cant be prosecuted for trespassing ............

WHAT??????? :eek:

Of course you can.

One shot on kill

how and for what

just to say this is my understanding of it anyway

fodda

Been law since 2002.

BELOWaverageIQ

Armed trespass isnt exactly going to line you up for a citizen of the year award either.

One shot on kill

criminal or civil law

Cass

There are multiple variations of trespass. One is a public offence, one criminal, one civil. Depends on the situation. Its also covered under multiple Acts such as the 94 Criminal(Public offence)Act, 95 Occupiers Act, etc.


Either way trespass is still illegal.

rowa

Is there a crime of armed trespass like there is in the uk ?

One shot on kill

im not big into law or anything
but
you cant have criminal law with out civil
as far as i understand

also trespass is a breach under civil law noting else its what you do when you trespass if it is criminal law
yes unlawfull shooting or hunting could very well be enough

what does the owner do if it is just a breach of civil law name or address of the offender CANNOT be DEMANDED

nor could you hold some untill guards arrive

but thats under civil law

im just saying becarefull if they fall over a fence and break there arm who gets prosacuted then because then i dont think trespassing would really come into it

although i do feel the op is right and very sensiable the way he dealt with it

One shot on kill

Ezridax wrote: »

There are multiple variations of trespass. One is a public offence, one criminal, one civil. Depends on the situation. Its also covered under multiple Acts such as the 94 Criminal(Public offence)Act, 95 Occupiers Act, etc.


Either way trespass is still illegal.

there is only one type of trespass and its civil as i said before its what you are doing when you trespass and that is what turns into criminal not the actual trespass but the act carryed out while trespassing

fodda

If you trample on the land owners grass arent you causing damage?.....I suppose they could have you any way they want?

One shot on kill

so your gonna make up storys about been afraid which is damageing the shooting and hunting scene all over the country but your not afraid to approach the person with a gun

now listen if you accuse someone of theft you canbe prosacuted if they are not proven guilty you have to be 100 % not 99 but 100% sure

not lads lets get this into context they trespass OK the guy approached them and they let straight away with no hastle now as far as i can see they were wrong once they were told to leave they did i think thats fair enough rather than ringing the guards now after and getting there guns taken away after they cooperated because there guns would be taken away with out a shadow of a doubt not if they were lamping deer lock them up i agree

Cass

Okay you are all typing way too fast for me tonight so forgive me while i try and catch up.

Trespass is trespass irrespective of how you want to cover it with the law. Yes there is a difference as to how a person would be prosecuted, and the persons actions while in the process of trespassing would lead to further prosecution (most likely criminal).

You seem to have a fairly good understanding of trespass so it would contradict you're earlier statment that you cannot be done for trespassing and its only the actions carried out while trespassing thats convictable. Its not. The trespass is an offenc ein itself. As to how it prosecuted, well thats a little outside my remit, but i know enough to know not to do it.

Then, as was said above, i'd have a firearm, and all the person would have to do is say they were afraid for their safety and i would loose the firearms, and face a long and costly court case to prove otherwise. Not to mention the problem trying to get my firearms back.


So after all that what are you saying. That its okay to trespass once you don't actually shoot?

One shot on kill

ok lads forgive me if im wrong was there a post there about being afraid for your safty it seems to be gone now

ez you are right i agree with you 100% but if they did get lost by accident which can happen no harm done i think

but just say they got permission of some one they though was landowner or of a some of power there then in ther eyes they had permission ( we know now they dont or didnt ) if they did they should of said who gave it to they and thats what has them the wrong side of ****ed but i do agree with you and op

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

ok lads forgive me if im wrong was there a post there about being afraid for your safty it seems to be gone now

Deleted.

ez you are right i agree with you 100% but if they did get lost by accident which can happen no harm done i think

There is. Honest mistakes where land is not clearly marked as being private or with a notice about trespassers being prosecuted, etc there is the "defence" that the person did not know better. Hence the reason this attitude;

fodda wrote: »

You dont have to do a thing...............................

fodda wrote:

You do not have to go to the expense or trouble of putting any signs up.

............. annoys me. How hard is it to put up a few signs to warn people that you do not want them on your land. it also leaves no room for the "i didn't know" excuse. A few euros for a few signs and its saves threads like this.

Anyone caught after signs, etc have been placed are there purposely and seemingly with intent.

One shot on kill

true correct and agree now that the if he thinks signs are hastle well going to guards and solicators is ten times more hastle


prevention is the key

landkeeper

why should he have to put signs up to say there is no shooting on his land anyone who is legitimate will ask and from what i have read get a polite 'no sorry'
the attitude that a landowner should put up no shooting signs pisses me off, it is usually spouted by those who don't own an acre and have little or no regard for others private property even when land is clearly marked you still get the prick who says i didn't see the sign or i came in over that ditch over there.
would you wander into someones garden or house cos there is no notice saying don't come in


it's simple landowners should start getting tptb involved in lads who wander where they will pleading ignorance and indifference
it is simple if your on land where you have no permission you are in breach of your fac and risk losing it that was explained to a couple of dickheads in my presence by a guard

Cass

landkeeper wrote: »

why should he have to put signs up to say there is no shooting on his land

He doesn't HAVE to. It would make sense though that instead of spending hours "patroling" your land or debating the "i shouldn't have to" point on threads like this a simple sign, printed on an A4 page costing about 5 cent could prevent it why not use this method. It may not work and you will always get those that will ignore them regardless, but anyone caught on your land after these signs were placed have little to no footing to to defend their actions.

the attitude that a landowner should put up no shooting signs pisses me off,

Why? Is it because of the "principle". In other words its my land and others should know better than to come onto it? Would it not piss you off a little more having to deal with everyone coming onto your land because there are no signs stating access/trespass is prohibited?

it is usually spouted by those who don't own an acre and have little or no regard for others private property

Thats a derogatory accusation, and a generalisation based on nothing more than personal belief rather than hard fact.

even when land is clearly marked you still get the prick who says i didn't see the sign or i came in over that ditch over there.

A warning from the landowner, and a reporting to the Gardai about the incident is all the landowner can do. If he covers all his bases then it leaves no room for the same people to try again.

would you wander into someones garden or house cos there is no notice saying don't come in

Not the same thing at all. A house is a defined section of land with a dwelling. Thats a different sort of trespass, plus i can't see many people trespassing into someone front yard looking for deer, foxes, rabbit, etc. Comparing that to acres of endless fields is not the same thing.

landkeeper

well signage doesn't work all you get is i didn't see it /didn't come in that way and/or any combination of the above or the more subtle the sign shot or ripped down and the trespass still goes on



no becuase you shouldn't have to tell folk 'not
to ' the fact that they have no permission and haven't asked should be enough rather than assuming as there are no signs they can




sorry no it's not it's based on 25+ years of experience most shooting seasons meeting lads from 20 miles away from the middle of housing estates and certain minority cultures with their greyhounds




possibly BUT its still private property whether its 200 acres or 1/2 acre it doesn't belong to the person trespassing the fact that they enter with a firearm makes it much worse
loud noises can and do frighten stock send them through wire fences drains etc


i can see from your posting it's not something you have had to deal with , believe me by the time you have sorted out mixed stock pulled ewes out of drains and ditches , held mares for stitching by the vet , dug shotgun pellets out of a bullocks foot , had lads walk past your kitchen window on a sunday afternoon complete with shotguns and spaniels spent two days rounding up 50 bullocks from up to 2 miles away cos some prat on a sunday left the gate open and a multitude of other disasters al all because lad think they can wander where they will
only this tuesday somone decided they would go for a walk for a duck result 40 something cattle in the wrong field and two gates left open the next morning

Vegeta

To get a conviction for trespass does the landowner have to prove he made efforts to inform people they were not allowed on his land. Signage or other methods, ad in local paper etc

For some reason I have it in my head that something like that exists.

Cass

landkeeper wrote: »

well signage doesn't work all you get is i didn't see it /didn't come in that way and/or any combination of the above or the more subtle the sign shot or ripped down and the trespass still goes on

I would say it doesn't work well, rather than at all. You will get as many lads, especially if they are new to the lands, that will see a sign and turn around. As much as you will get lads that see a sign and ignore it.

No doubt there are thise that simply ignore signs, and even landowners and comtinue to do as they please. The Gardai is the only answer for these people.

no becuase you shouldn't have to tell folk 'not
to ' the fact that they have no permission and haven't asked should be enough rather than assuming as there are no signs they can

And ideally you wouldn't have folk trespassing, accidentally or not, but its not the case so why not do as was said above and try some preventative measures rather than clean up after the event.

sorry no it's not it's based on 25+ years of experience most shooting seasons meeting lads from 20 miles away from the middle of housing estates and certain minority cultures with their greyhounds

A few tainting the majority so.

possibly BUT its still private property whether its 200 acres or 1/2 acre it doesn't belong to the person trespassing the fact that they enter with a firearm makes it much worse
loud noises can and do frighten stock send them through wire fences drains etc

I take your point, and agree. The problem as i see it is people attitudes, on both sides of the argument, with one side (possibly rightly) refusing to put up signs, then not following through on prosecution. then the other side of accidental incidents, with the mixture of fully fledged trespassers that disregard any notices, land restrictions, etc.

Then throw into the mix the lack of action from the PTB, and any relevant Gov. body assigned to regulate the industry through inaction or lack of effective legislation.

@Vegeta - I don't think so. It is the onus of the person to know whether they can enter land or not, but there is an allowance for accidental trespass.

ace86

fodda wrote: »

You dont have to do a thing, it is your land and you are entitled to your beliefs and opinions whatever they be.

It is the shooter who has to find out exactly where his permissions are and stick to them, if he needs to enter your land he needs to ask you first and certainly not wonder around where he like or thinks he can no matter who told him anything.

You do not have to go to the expense or trouble of putting any signs up.

I agree with fodda these guys i feel are just rogue shooters chancing there arm because they probably saw some deer and decided to help themselves with out even asking the landowner. Most shooters know there boundaries and the lands and owners and shoot with there permission. I often go shooting in other places with friends as an invited guest and I always like to know which places i can go in case we split up or whatever its just good practice and common courteous to all landowners.

homerhop

Vegeta wrote: »

To get a conviction for trespass does the landowner have to prove he made efforts to inform people they were not allowed on his land. Signage or other methods, ad in local paper etc

For some reason I have it in my head that something like that exists.

I think that only applies if a sporting body such as a gun club is bringing a case against someone. Section 44 part 6 of the 1976 wildlife act.


I dont know why lads are so afraid of approaching someone who is on their land or permission. Yes they are carrying firearms but as far as I know there has never been a case in the country where someone has been shot by lads who didnt have permission.

garv123

homerhop wrote: »

I dont know why lads are so afraid of approaching someone who is on their land or permission. Yes they are carrying firearms but as far as I know there has never been a case in the country where someone has been shot by lads who didnt have permission.

People seem to think that if you own a gun you're capable of murder or you are a scumbag and you'll kick their heads in if they approach you.

Sparks

garv123 wrote: »

People seem to think that if you own a gun you're capable of murder or you are a scumbag and you'll kick their heads in if they approach you.

I think it might be more the point that they were trespassing and possibly poaching and people think that people who break the law like that are scumbags...


...as the many threads on poaching here have not been slow to suggest...

Grizzly 45

@Vegeta - I don't think so. It is the onus of the person to know whether they can enter land or not, but there is an allowance for accidental trespass.

From principles of Irish law Brian Doolan

This might be out dated or changed so Cevat Emptor when using this!!
I'm not a lawyer and this is a complex enough legal minefield.However I ASSume the principles havent changed that much!However maybe consulting a solr might be prudent too on this.
But going from it..If you do and are entitled to take reasonable measures to keep tresspassers off your property.So putting up signs seemingly would be the most minimum,if you can spike your walls ,keep savage dogs etc.:eek:

landkeeper

homerhop wrote: »

I think that only applies if a sporting body such as a gun club is bringing a case against someone. Section 44 part 6 of the 1976 wildlife act.


I dont know why lads are so afraid of approaching someone who is on their land or permission. Yes they are carrying firearms but as far as I know there has never been a case in the country where someone has been shot by lads who didnt have permission.

the reason lads are wary of approaching is that most times what you get is abuse and grief, now i'm happy enough to do it but i'm used to guns and shooters as i'm one myself, but a lot of lads are not and a few lads with dogs and guns on their land is not something they are used to dealing with
anyway the fact remains you shouldn't have to do it it's private property not some great national park

deeksofdoom

FFS take a chill pill,

Its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

kildare.17hmr

deeksofdoom wrote: »

FFS take a chill pill,

Its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

I disagree, iv only been told no once and never had to appoligise! all depends how you approach things.

Glensman

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I disagree, iv only been told no once and never had to appoligise! all depends how you approach things.

The only time I got hassle was when I was accused of shooting hares (I was shooting crows).

I told the fella I had taken 120 odd grey crows off his land that winter and 28 foxes and why did he think there were even hares there!!!

I then made it clear that I didn't like his confrontational attitude and I would happily stop my vermin control (a bluff as it's too close to our pheasant shoot). He backed down and we now have an 'understanding'. :rolleyes:


To stay on thread: I think these lads were chancing their arms. I would put up a few signs and keep an eye out.

underthetumb

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I disagree, iv only been told no once and never had to appoligise! all depends how you approach things.

I would rather be told no, than go looking for 'forgiveness'

landkeeper

deeksofdoom wrote: »

FFS take a chill pill,

Its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

and that's the attitude that started the whole thread :rolleyes:

pheasntstalker

i happened to tresspass on to a lads land ,just to make it clear it wasnt intentional,i was out for a shot on a new permission, and strayed on to a neighbours land ,the neighbour had signs up for no shooting on lands around and on lands near the road, with the exception of the lands near my new permissions, the owner approached me very annoyed threating to ring the guards,and have my gun taken off me, i apoligsed and explained my mistake,he asked me was i blind did i not see the signs, to which i pointed out there were no signs around except the lands nearest the road,and i didnt know where my permission ended as the farmer hadnt showin me the boundries,.after apologiseing and he than realising he had no signs on this part of his land, showed me the boundries and sent me on my way , the following year the same neighbour gave me permission to shoot his land, all because i wasnt chancing my arm, didnt stray on to his lands again,and a plus was his son had taken up hunting, so it ended well because of a simple mistake

landkeeper

little tip for those lads who stray inadvertantly
when land belongs to one farmer there are usually gates between the separate fields
when you come to a ditch with no gate chances are the land the other side belongs to someone else

Glensman

landkeeper wrote: »

little tip for those lads who stray inadvertantly
when land belongs to one farmer there are usually gates between the separate fields
when you come to a ditch with no gate chances are the land the other side belongs to someone else

I have farmers who own whole mountains with dozens of gates.

Just ask my unfortunate lamping partner/co-pilot

homerhop

The problem with it is there are people who just dont care, they will see a field pull up and go into it. Farmer here beside me went out at lads a while back with lurchers and told them to get off they had no permission, they turned around and told her to fk off. We hunt her land on a regular basis and I will always phone or call into the yard if we are going out lamping.

There is no point is saying farmers shouldnt have to put up signs or notices in the paper, there are a lot of things we shouldnt have to do in life but the fact remains that every little bit you do is to your advantage if it goes to court.

Lads who go across knowing they dont have permission hoping for forgivness if caught just mistify me. What would their attitude be if they came home and found someone walking around their back yards?
Pheasant season is almost upon us, lads are out and about seeing what is stirring, it takes just a few minutes to pull into a yard and ask, but ya will hear the same excuses like the farmer isnt home or hard to find, Lads ye have a month a bit of cop on goes a long way.

staghunter

i'v never trepassed on anyones land,but it can be awfull frustrating trying to find a farmer or get in contact with him when he owns a field tweenty miles from where he lives, where im based its near impossible to get a big number of acres to hunt on because there are so many small little firlds with so many different owners and who live all over the place.but its well worth the effort to find them and know you can hunt in comfort an not be worried about getting a bollicking.these lads that do tresspass couldn't injoy there hunting when there always looking over ther shoulder personally i couldn;t see the fun in it

ManAlive73

Not all landowners own sporting rights, so the people with the sporting rights can access your land to hunt or give people permission to hunt on those lands.

landkeeper

ManAlive73 wrote: »

Not all landowners own sporting rights, so the people with the sporting rights can access your land to hunt or give people permission to hunt on those lands.

that's a legal minefield yes they may own the sporting rights but there are so many things they cannot do it's not worth their while a lot of the time
it's a hangover from the landlord days when he might own 25,000 acres and have agents farming it