dace friend or foe ?

madred006

Hi all just wondering what peoples opinions are on dace ,reason I ask is that in the last 4-5 years our local stretch of river has been populated by dace .This year they are getting quiet big some over 1lb ,personally I dont mind them at least ur catching fish,but some members hate them and when they catch them just throe them out on the banks ,intrested to see are there any views on this good or bad thanks .

beer enigma

Dace are a great fish for sport & any fish close to the 1lb mark is a good specimen. The British record is not much above 1lb but they seem to thrive in Irish rivers.

Dace are not dissimilar to Roach & certainly do no harm

I'm horrified to think that any angler no matter what discipline would "throw a fish onto the bank" though ?

Which river are we talking about here ?

Kess73

Andip wrote: »

Dace are a great fish for sport & any fish close to the 1lb mark is a good specimen. The British record is not much above 1lb but they seem to thrive in Irish rivers.

Dace are not dissimilar to Roach & certainly do no harm

I'm horrified to think that any angler no matter what discipline would "throw a fish onto the bank" though ?
Which river are we talking about here ?

+1

That is a disgusting practise to hear being done.

natdog

Andip wrote: »

Dace are not dissimilar to Roach & certainly do no harm

How can you say they do no harm any fish being put into a river that is not natural to that river is not a good thing.
The competition for food being a major factor and this practice which is going on for some time now of putting coarse fish into our rivers is totally wreckless by coarse anglers and they should have a good look a themselfs.

beer enigma

natdog wrote: »

How can you say they do no harm any fish being put into a river that is not natural to that river is not a good thing.
The competition for food being a major factor and this practice which is going on for some time now of putting coarse fish into our rivers is totally wreckless by coarse anglers and they should have a good look a themselfs.

I didn't necessarily read 'populated' as illegally introduced, that's why I asked which river the OP was talking about. If you look at the Blackwater or the Barrow, both rivers have a good natural head, but they are present in many other waters.

Just a quick check on the Inland Fisheries website lists:

"Some of the best dace waters in Ireland: Munster Blackwater River at Fermoy and Mallow Co. Cork, the River Barrow at all centres; Doon Lake near Broadford in Co. Clare and the lower River Shannon near Annacotty outside Limerick."

I agree if you are talking about non native species or species not natural to the river, but I think you'll find Dace are fairly widespread and would doubt the need to artificially introduce them.

natdog

While I didnt realise they are in some of our watersystems such a long time 1880`s they are a problem fish and are on the invasive species list and I would have no problem with lads removing them from a waterway.
I also think anyone caught introducing fish to a waterway without approval should face serious punishment.

beer enigma

natdog wrote: »

While I didnt realise they are in some of our watersystems such a long time 1880`s they are a problem fish and are on the invasive species list and I would have no problem with lads removing them from a waterway.
I also think anyone caught introducing fish to a waterway without approval should face serious punishment.

Which invasive list are the on out of interest - not on the IFB list ?

http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/Invasive-Species/invasive-species-list.html

uch

natdog wrote: »

While I didnt realise they are in some of our watersystems such a long time 1880`s they are a problem fish and are on the invasive species list and I would have no problem with lads removing them from a waterway.
I also think anyone caught introducing fish to a waterway without approval should face serious punishment.

So are Carp and Chub, Roach are not native to Ireland either


Dace are actually great fun to fish for on moving water and if as OP say they are reaching 1lb, these are huge fish by Dace standards

viper123

Out of interest when were Dace actually introduced, and what harm have they done to the water systems containing them?

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

uch wrote: »

So are Carp and Chub, Roach are not native to Ireland either


Dace are actually great fun to fish for on moving water and if as OP say they are reaching 1lb, these are huge fish by Dace standards

exactly, people forget that roach are not native.

what is the chub situation in the inny at the moment? I know there was a huge effort to remove them

madred006

Andip wrote: »

Dace are a great fish for sport & any fish close to the 1lb mark is a good specimen. The British record is not much above 1lb but they seem to thrive in Irish rivers.

Dace are not dissimilar to Roach & certainly do no harm

I'm horrified to think that any angler no matter what discipline would "throw a fish onto the bank" though ?

Which river are we talking about here ?

barrow laois end

madred006

viper123 wrote: »

Out of interest when were Dace actually introduced, and what harm have they done to the water systems containing them?

Its only in the last 4-5 years that they came around our stretch some say they were introduced by anglers fishing for pike .im not actually sure how they came about but it wouldnt be uncommon to see 10-15 of them on the bank in places depends who is fishing as regards harm they do im not sure

bayliner

Ethan Old Typesetter wrote: »

exactly, people forget that roach are not native.

what is the chub situation in the inny at the moment? I know there was a huge effort to remove them

last i heard they were succesfully removed, thankfully!!! the damage these fish would do to trout spawning grounds would be devastating!!!
jail sentences should be introduced to the fools who do this!!!!

madred006

Stupid question but how would one remove them ,would there always be eggs left or the odd one avoid removal ,and are they prolific breeders.

bayliner

madred006 wrote: »

Stupid question but how would one remove them ,would there always be eggs left or the odd one avoid removal ,and are they prolific breeders.

several yrs of electro-fishing i believe was used to remove the fish, the last number of sweeps they did they found none that was up to last yr some time, i havent heard anything on it since

natdog

Andip wrote: »

Which invasive list are the on out of interest - not on the IFB list ?

http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/Invasive-Species/invasive-species-list.html

invasive species ireland
www.invasivespeciesireland.com

natdog

uch wrote: »

So are Carp and Chub, Roach are not native to Ireland either

Dace are actually great fun to fish for on moving water and if as OP say they are reaching 1lb, these are huge fish by Dace standards

Whats your point about carp etc.
It doesnt make it right just because there good fun.

natdog

viper123 wrote: »

Out of interest when were Dace actually introduced, and what harm have they done to the water systems containing them?

they do damage to gravel beds and gather around these areas when salmon are laying.

beer enigma

Seems to be a misconception here that rivers in Ireland are all game fishing rivers - the Barrow for example is a great coarse fishing river & I first fished it back in 1980.

Similar is happening with the Blackwater in Cork where the lands are having 'rights preserved' by Salmon & trout societies & course fisherman who have fished these sections for years are being closed out.

Thanks for the link to the invasive species site natdog - I hadn't realised the similarity in Dace/Game breeding habitats.

zacmorris

madred006 wrote: »

barrow laois end

I'm plagued by them when fishing various stretches of the Barrow. I've had some big ones this summer, but when you're out after brownies- it can become a pain...

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

natdog wrote: »

Whats your point about carp etc.
It doesnt make it right just because there good fun.

I disagree, carp were introduced into ireland for angling purposes, some were introduced into the shannon without any problems. However, I do not agree with their introduction (or any invasive species) to any river lake in the country where they can escape into the wild. If contained properly, in land locked lakes, then I dont see the problem. Same goes for tench

Dace are an invasive species, and if they are having a serious knock on effect on the natural fish species, they should be removed.

ironbluedun

Andip wrote: »

Dace are not dissimilar to Roach & certainly do no harm

that is very much so open to question.

natdog

Ethan Old Typesetter wrote: »

I disagree, carp were introduced into ireland for angling purposes, some were introduced into the shannon without any problems. However, I do not agree with their introduction (or any invasive species) to any river lake in the country where they can escape into the wild. If contained properly, in land locked lakes, then I dont see the problem. Same goes for tench

Dace are an invasive species, and if they are having a serious knock on effect on the natural fish species, they should be removed.

Ethan Old Typesetter I dont know what you disagree with me your making the same point as me.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

natdog wrote: »

frankcarty I dont know what you disagree with me your making the same point as me.

i was disagreeing with "It doesnt make it right just because there good fun."
but, otherwise our views are the same

madred006

just as matter of intrest what do anglers on the blackwater and other rivers do with them ,ie. do they just return them or kill them :eek:.

beer enigma

madred006 wrote: »

just as matter of intrest what do anglers on the blackwater and other rivers do with them ,ie. do they just return them or kill them :eek:.

We would treat them with respect & care - return them unharmed to fight another day. I'm horrified to think that people would deliberately kill them.

The Blackwater like the Barrow has had Dace for many many years & whilst I'm sympathetic to the damage they cause to trout breeding (for which I'm appreciative of natdogs postings) - to take the law into your hands and kill a fish is taking us back into the dark days of dumping pike onto the bank.

If we condone this type of action we may as well provide free bbq's to people involved in illegal fishing

Apologies to OP as I'm not ranting at you :-)

coolwings

Dace? Why not brown trout?
One is Irish, the other a continental specie, both occupy the same niche. The Irish native version fights harder, and grows bigger.

The problem is introduced species never stay where they are because there are certain people who put them in buckets and introduce them into still more fisheries. This can't be stopped because the culprits are many, and act unsupervised.
They innocently want to "improve the fishing" rather than learn to catch what is already there like anglers should.

Some day in the future, the authorities will turn to poisoning irish fisheries to clean out invasive species, and amateur stockers will have caused it to happen. I shudder at the certainty of that.

snow ghost

You only have to look at the severe damage the introduction of non native species has done to Australia's native fish stocks to appreciate what can happen.

In Australia it is illegal to return non-native species like carp, if you catch one.

I'm not fully au fait with dace that have been introduced here, and perhaps there are justifable reasons for introducing them on some wateways, i.e. where they are that polluted dace are the only fish that would thrive there (I don't know that)? But I don't know enough to comment about not returning them.

That said in general I'd be against the introduction of non-native fish to our water systems. Our systems have evolved over thousands of years and need no meddling with in terms of introducing more species.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

coolwings wrote: »

Some day in the future, the authorities will turn to poisoning irish fisheries to clean out invasive species

or just introduce some zander to take care of it!

ironbluedun

coolwings wrote: »

Dace? Why not brown trout?

exactly..

Zzippy

Ethan Old Typesetter wrote: »

I disagree, carp were introduced into ireland for angling purposes, some were introduced into the shannon without any problems. However, I do not agree with their introduction (or any invasive species) to any river lake in the country where they can escape into the wild. If contained properly, in land locked lakes, then I dont see the problem. Same goes for tench

Dace are an invasive species, and if they are having a serious knock on effect on the natural fish species, they should be removed.

It is illegal to stock carp into any water where they are not native, landlocked or not. Unless you create a new habitat by digging out a pond, and install measures to prevent any escapes, carp cannot be introduced anywhere. I had this discussion with a senior member of the Irish Carp Club a few years ago at an angling show and he completely disagreed, he thought it was fine to put them in lakes here, there and everywhere. Just shows the attitude of some people who only care about their sport, and not about the damage invasive species can cause.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Zzippy wrote: »

It is illegal to stock carp into any water where they are not native, landlocked or not. Unless you create a new habitat by digging out a pond, and install measures to prevent any escapes, carp cannot be introduced anywhere. I had this discussion with a senior member of the Irish Carp Club a few years ago at an angling show and he completely disagreed, he thought it was fine to put them in lakes here, there and everywhere. Just shows the attitude of some people who only care about their sport, and not about the damage invasive species can cause.

Yea im pretty sure its illegal allright, but any idea who stocked the carp into the natural lakes in the mullingar area? Dont even know how long those lakes have been stocked. I take back my earlier comments where i said "any" land locked lake could be stocked with carp.

The guy from the Irish Carp Club is totally wrong! you cant just introduce carp anywhere.

I dont think we need to worry about carp being introduced into our lakes and rivers though, at it is there are very few lakes that are not day ticket waters that have carp, and with good reason. They are very expensive to buy, and in my opinion, its rare to see them thrive in ireland without lots of anglers baits being fed to them. They would struggle in the loughs and big rivers of ireland where they are competing with huge shoals of bream for food, something they dont really have to do as much in th UK. The water temp in these rivers prob wouldnt allow them to spawn either.

as far as invasive species so, in my opinion, carp are by no means the worst. If they were introduced to my local rivers or lakes illegaly, I would be more worried about the electro fishing used to get them out. I would be a lot more worried if chub or barbel were introduced. they would prob do well in Ireland, at the expense of bream!

Were lucky nobody ever decided to introduce zander.......

sickpuppy

Is there a more pointless fish than bream?
I asked here before about carp being able to spawn think reply was water temp too cold.
The damage carp have done in australia is huge the Murray river is thick with them i used catch a bloody carp a cast no matter what bait be it shrimps grubs or worms.

finlayspub1

dace are becoming a huge problem around the portarlington area of the barrow , they are prolific breeders and seem to be sweeping any food that our native trout feed on , i for one would be delighted to see them gone , if you go anywhere on the river and cast a wet fly downstream you will catch any amount of them .
the barrow at portarlington was once one of the finest trout fisheries in th country not that long ago and due to drainage board widening the river with drag lines and the fisheries board not letting you put a rock in without permission , it has gone steadily downhill , dace are only compounding the problem and we now have literally thousands of dace destroying the river .

beer enigma

Lads I'm in full agreement about illegal stocking - there's no place for it

But Ireland is not just a game fishery

Dace have been here for over 100 years - are ye saying that game fishing has been affected that long

Comment that Bream are of no value ? - to a course fisherman that's like saying fishing for trout & hooking a salmon is of no value ?

slowburner

Here's a link to a paper on Dace in Irish waters

http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/Research/invasive-species.html

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

sickpuppy wrote: »

Is there a more pointless fish than bream?

Typical response from a game angler :rolleyes:
Explain how a fish, of any species, are pointless to its eco system?

From an angling and tourism point of view, the bream brings thousands of anglers from the UK alone to Ireland, as the size of the shoals and quality of bream are much higher in Ireland.

sickpuppy wrote: »

I asked here before about carp being able to spawn think reply was water temp too cold.
The damage carp have done in australia is huge the Murray river is thick with them i used catch a bloody carp a cast no matter what bait be it shrimps grubs or worms.

I know in one lake in the midlands, they can and have spawned. This is a very shallow and small (landlocked) lake. arounf 95% of irish water would be too cold for them.
The murray is not a good comparison though, the climate of the murray basin is a lot different from Ireland and the UK! Its also a different species of carp in the Murray, not the "King Carp" strain found in most of europe. Do Murray Cod eat carp? The carp in european rivers are eaten by catfish, so that keeps their numbers under control

copeyhagen

anyone ever caught catfish in ireland, according to invasivespecies theyre here..

viper123

I have "reliable" reports of them being present in the Shannon. Never heard of one caught though. There's also apparently grayling in the Wicklow mountains somewhere.

Macspower

madred006 wrote: »

Hi all just wondering what peoples opinions are on dace ,reason I ask is that in the last 4-5 years our local stretch of river has been populated by dace .This year they are getting quiet big some over 1lb ,personally I dont mind them at least ur catching fish,but some members hate them and when they catch them just throe them out on the banks ,interested to see are there any views on this good or bad thanks .

My opinion on Dace has changed as their size has grown. I won a match recently with 4.5 lb of the little buggers!

On a day when no roach or hybrids are showing dace are a welcome catch. they are one of the quickest biters I have ever seen and are near impossible to hit on the feeder. You would require Valium if you were to feeder fish for them

My chosen method is trotting a stick float with a center pin and a lightening strike!