Loverboys= Could it happen here?

Corsendonk

I was listening to a Radio Netherlands documentary today on the rising trend of Loverboys. Basically older boys who groom younger girlfriends for prositution and drugs and some cases get their gfs to groom other fems. Fairly shocking stuff especially how they break the girls mental barriers down and use her as a recruiter for them. The girl at the centre of the documentary described how she would get gfs addicted to cocaine or get their kids took away by social services to gain more control over them. She would single out the loner girls in niteclubs and coffee shops. Could the same happen here?

Guardian

On her first day of secondary school, a nervous 12-year-old Maria Mosterd was noticed by a much older boy from the technical college next door, wearing a baby-blue tracksuit and diamond jewellery. "He was big, fat and ugly, but he was impressive because all the boys respected him," she said. "I was kind of scared of him. All the girls wanted him to talk to them. But he only said hello to me, so I thought I was special."
They got chatting in the playground and two weeks later the boy, Manou, persuaded her to skip class, drove her to his student flat, gave her a joint and slept with her. She didn't want to, but was told all girls had to learn how to do it. "You'll do well, you're the right size, you're well taken care of, they like that," he said. She didn't really know what he meant, laughed at the smiley faces on his boxer shorts, and then passed out from the dope.
To Maria, Manou promised a bit of excitement in Zwolle, the "boring" provincial town where she lived with her Dutch mother, who taught drama at another school. Her father was from Suriname, but she didn't know him. She called herself a "half-blood" and often felt she didn't fit in.
Days later Manou drove her to another flat during morning class. It smelt of drugs and there were two men in the living room. "You're going to have sex with them, sweetheart," he said. "Are you mad? I don't even know them," she laughed. He took her into the kitchen, beat her "to make her listen", then gave her a joint, and she went to the bedroom with the men. Afterwards, he dropped her back at school and she cycled home to her mum. She didn't tell anyone. He promised her nice clothes and took her to McDonald's for ice-cream. He gave her a mobile phone and called her every night in her bedroom at home, controlling everything, telling her when to go to the toilet, eat, go to bed. "I thought it was normal," she said.
Manou was a "loverboy" – a phenomenon that has plunged the Netherlands into a wave of soul-searching. Loverboys, often in their 20s, single out insecure, underage girls in schools, coffee-shops, outside care homes, and woo them as "boyfriends", promising love, clothes, status and excitement. Then they start to run them as prostitutes, drug-mules and gun-runners, or extort money from them, isolating them from their friends and families.
The girls, emotionally and financially dependant on their loverboys, find themselves locked into a cycle of abuse, sometimes made to work in windows in official red-light districts or being handed from flat to flat in several cities.
The decade-old problem in the Netherlands has now been catapulted on to the political agenda after Mosterd wrote an account of her four years from the age of 12 to 16 when she was forced to work for her loverboy. The book, Real Men Don't Eat Cheese, has been a bestseller, a film is in pre-production, and politicians, police, teachers and parents are mobilising like never before.
The public is asking why, in a nation where prostitution above the age of 18 is legal and regulated, a crooked sub-culture of loverboys and their child-prostitute "girlfriends" exists. Mosterd's family is suing her school for not properly investigating her truancy. Jamila Yahyaoui, of the Dutch Socialist party, which is pressing the government for more police action, more prosecutions and more shelters for victims, said: "Every year several hundred girls fall into the hands of loverboys, but only five cases lead to convictions. That has to change."
Sitting in her living room, Mosterd, now 20, described her daily routine. "I would go to school on my bike. He'd be waiting for me. He'd give me different clothes to wear, otherwise my mother would smell the smoke on me. He thought of everything. He'd make sure I was back at home by 5pm, so I could have dinner with my mum."
During the day she would be driven to houses and flats to sleep with men, often two or three at a time. There were rapes and beatings. She had to help single out other girls and deliver drugs and guns in her school bag – the police never noticed "a sweet little girl".
"Manou had regular customers. Some were fathers, family men, company directors, school directors," she said.
Eventually, after four years of truancy, a teacher confronted Mosterd, asking what was wrong. She didn't know what to say, so she told a part truth about a recent ordeal where Manou had promised a "surprise" and driven her to "a house full of men", saying she had to sleep with them all. She told the teacher about a vague gang rape. "I couldn't work out why the teacher and then my mother made such a drama of it. By then it was all normal to me," she said.
Mosterd's mother, Lucie, is angry that the school never told her about the truancy, and that she never worked out what was going on, despite meeting Manou, who she thought was just a friend. "If it could happen to me as a mother, it could happen to anyone," she said. "Maria would always shower when she came in, but I thought she was sweaty from cycling home. She never went out at night. I didn't know what was going on in school time."
Three men got short sentences for the gang rape. But Mosterd has not yet brought a case against Manou.
Amanda de Wind, who manages a project that runs the Netherlands' only anonymous shelter specifically for escaped victims of loverboys, said: "I think this kind of thing is happening in every country, such as England, Germany, Russia, and accounts for 99% of the prostitution of young girls."
In most of the cases she saw the girls had mental health problems; many had previously been victims of sexual abuse. "A loverboy can easily spot and target someone who has been raped," she said.
Often a loverboy would take a girl with him to watch while he beat up someone else, she added. "The girls are told: 'If you run away, I'll go after your sister, your mother'." Recently loverboys have branched out into drug-running and extortion, which is harder for the police to spot. "We have seen loverboys making the girls take out bank loans when they turn 18 and hand over the money, or register cars and insurance in their name," De Wind said.
Mosterd said she wasn't "in love" with her loverboy, but she lived for the happy moments, such as when he took her for an ice-cream on her 13th birthday. She never saw any money, but was offered limitless hash.
Asked if he gave her heroin, she said: "He didn't have to make me addicted to drugs, because I was addicted to him."

Neyite

That method seems to be pretty tried and tested for manipulating and coercing women into prostitution, or dupe them into being trafficked for prostitution all over the world.

There would also seem to be paralells to abusive relationships - break the woman down until her self esteem is well and truly broken, and gradually isolate her and ensure she is dependant on you and fears your power over her.

In the beginning, you want to please the person that loves you, and certainly to a young or inexperienced girl, where they draw the line can be blurred, and before they know it, what might be termed as a 'good day' for these girls/women is a day they dont get battered.

I would love to see workshops or seminars for girls in schools on recognising controlling or manipulative behaviour in relationships.

Giselle

It might be something for men who use prostitutes to keep in mind, although mostly we just hear how its the womans 'choice' to sell her body (and who are they to argue with that choice).

Some choices can be very poor quality and made on very poor criteria, but I suppose its easy to overlook possible coercion if you want to buy sex enough and you can't see the scars.

Catari Jaguar

That's really frightening. Glad my eyes have been opened to it. Thanks for posting.

Logical Fallacy

Unfortunately Irish society is open to the same crimes and mistreatment of people as any other country...so there is no way at all we are immune to people ending up being affected by the likes of this.

Das Kitty

Eastenders did a storyline on this earlier in the year. I'd never considered the notion of that type of coercion before.

I'd imagine it's more difficult to get a conviction as well considering the state of mind these girls are in.

seenitall

Hmmmm... something doesn't quite add up here. How can she have been truant on such a scale for so long, and the mother never found out about it? Wouldn't it have affected her grades at the very least? Let alone, you know, parent-teacher meetings/chats from time to time, etc? Are the schools over there that lax? About children that young?

I'm asking because at the time and the place I was in school (Eastern Europe), there was no way a similar scenario could have played out. In other ways, yes. But not during school hours. The teacher responsible for the given class, and the parents, would have been in too much contact, and detailed enough communication, for this to fly (thank the communism for the well-oiled control mechanisms ). I'm hoping Ireland is similar.

My daughter is only small yet. Hopefully we'll be ok once the "impressionable" years roll along, although... I know this will also greatly depend on her character/temperament.

discus

Giselle wrote: »

It might be something for men who use prostitutes to keep in mind, although mostly we just hear how its the womans 'choice' to sell her body (and who are they to argue with that choice).

Some choices can be very poor quality and made on very poor criteria, but I suppose its easy to overlook possible coercion if you want to buy sex enough and you can't see the scars.

There's a huge difference between going to a prostitute/escort, or sitting in an apartment and having a guy bring a child to an apartment to be drugged and raped.

And this "loverboy" thing is happening. It's just not as dramatic as the story above. It's sad, but so many young girls are easily impressed by older boys on mopeds, or ****ty tinted-windows on honda civics.

There were a few girls from my primary school class who succumbed to these characters right after primary school. Lads who were 16/17 were hitting on two girls in particular, although in this case, the parents must have been blind - the girls were getting picked up and dropped home in cars at 13 years of age. One was a pregnant single mother at 15 and the other was the same story, although she's gone from one crap partner to another. The similarities between the stories above are a) the type of girls they picked b) the introduction to drink and drugs c) the constant gifts - credit for their 088 mobiles (which wasn't cheap at the time), money etc.

Giselle

discus wrote: »

There's a huge difference between going to a prostitute/escort, or sitting in an apartment and having a guy bring a child to an apartment to be drugged and raped.

.

Just because a girl is over 18 doesn't mean there's no element of coercion involved. Its very naive (or convenient) to think otherwise. Just because a girl isn't tied bleeding to a radiator doesn't mean she's there through her own, informed, free will.

Not to say that some prostitutes aren't making a clear headed and informed career choice having considered the options. Good luck to those.

discus

Giselle wrote: »

Just because a girl is over 18 doesn't mean there's no element of coercion involved. Its very naive (or convenient) to think otherwise. Just because a girl isn't tied bleeding to a radiator doesn't mean she's there through her own, informed, free will.

Not to say that some prostitutes aren't making a clear headed and informed career choice having considered the options. Good luck to those.

Agreed. It's not an area of black and white.

LittleBook

I'd think it could easily happen here and possibly does. It's a sub-section of "Pimps" in Wikipedia and I would guess a lot of pimps "acquire" and keep their girls using similar methods.

Although there does seem to be a significant problem with this in the Netherlands, there are several other articles about it.

The public is asking why, in a nation where prostitution above the age of 18 is legal and regulated, a crooked sub-culture of loverboys and their child-prostitute "girlfriends" exists.

Anita de Wit (who runs an organisation working to stop this practice and educate young girls about it) explains in this Radio Netherlands article that the strictness of the communities from which these girls come may be part of the problem:

Many things are taboo here. As a result of their upbringing the local girls sometimes aren’t aware of all the various aspects of sex. On the other hand, you have a large group of young boys of Moroccan origin who know everything about the subject. Put those two groups together and it’s got to go wrong, big time. This has been going on here for years.

discus

Pinpointing Moroccans? Why them?

LittleBook

Not sure. She's speaking about a specific town (not Zwolle) in the article, maybe there's been an influx of Moroccan immigrants there, maybe arrests reflect what she's said.

wiki

During the 1960s and 1970s the Netherlands needed a larger labour force for the labour intense jobs in the lower educated sectors. These sectors had were in short of workers because of the traditionally service-oriented Dutch economy. The Netherlands concluded recruitment agreements with countries like Turkey and Morocco, allowing people from these countries to stay in the Netherlands[citation needed] (smaller numbers of Muslim immigrants in this time came from Tunisia and Algeria).
Official work immigration ended in 1973, but the number of Moroccans and Turks remained on the increase as immigrants brought their family to the country using family reunification laws. A number of Surinamese Muslims came to the Netherlands before and after the independence of Suriname in 1975.
In the 1980s and especially since the 1990s, Muslims came to the Netherlands as refugees and asylum seekers, mainly from Bosnia, Somalia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.[3]
Currently most Muslim immigration takes place through marriage migration and family reunification laws. Most Moroccan and Turkish 1st and 2nd generation immigrants marry people from their home countries.[citation needed] In the past years the Netherlands passed immigration laws which force future immigrants and their prospective Dutch partners to abide by very strict requirements. Immigrants must pass tests showing knowledge of Dutch in their home countries. The Dutch partner must be at least 21 years old and prove income of at least 120% minimum wage. These strict laws have caused many Dutch interested in marrying people from other countries to move to Belgium for a temporary period, in what has been called "The Belgian Route".[4]
Because of increasingly restrictive legislation on family formation and reunification, the number of immigrants from Turkey and Morocco has decreased sharply since 2003.[5] The number of immigrants from Turkey decreased from 6,703 in 2003 to 3,175 in 2006, and the number from Morocco was more than halved from 4,894 to 2,085.[6]

I found a few other links, though one was a little "omg they're involved in all the crimes" so I'll leave that one out...

Emme

That could easily happen here but something else is happening here at the moment. I have heard of guys in their 30s from non-EU countries who seek out girls in their teens and early 20s. They often tell these girls they're in their 20s, get the girls pregnant, hang around long enough for the children to be born, get their name put on the child's birth cert and apparently that gives them the right to live and work in the EU. They don't necessarily stick around after that.

gargleblaster

The public is asking why, in a nation where prostitution above the age of 18 is legal and regulated, a crooked sub-culture of loverboys and their child-prostitute "girlfriends" exists.

Yes, why indeed.

The public should look into the rationale behind the Swedish model. That should clear things up nicely.

Victor

seenitall wrote: »

Hmmmm... something doesn't quite add up here. How can she have been truant on such a scale for so long, and the mother never found out about it? Wouldn't it have affected her grades at the very least? Let alone, you know, parent-teacher meetings/chats from time to time, etc? Are the schools over there that lax? About children that young?

I imagine there is some simplifiaction and changing of the details, however not every parent has an ideal life either.

seenitall

Victor wrote: »

I imagine there is some simplifiaction and changing of the details, however not every parent has an ideal life either.

What does that mean? Is "not having an ideal life" an euphemism for "not bothering to chat to one's child's teacher/school for years on end?" Because if it is, I can tell you that as a single mother who has no family support in this country as a foreigner and works intermittently on a free-lance basis, I can still proudly boast of having an absolutely ideal life, and then some. Wow! :pac:

In fact, I find I very difficult to believe that a mother could be that lax about her child's welfare, school progress and general whereabouts, which is why my instinct was to, rightly or wrongly, put the responsibility for the failure to communicate at the school's door.

inforfun

seenitall wrote: »

Hmmmm... something doesn't quite add up here. How can she have been truant on such a scale for so long, and the mother never found out about it? Wouldn't it have affected her grades at the very least? Let alone, you know, parent-teacher meetings/chats from time to time, etc? Are the schools over there that lax? About children that young?

Schools where a 12 year old would go to in Holland are most of the times enormous. Certainly in the bigger cities.
1000's of kids going to the same building in which different levels of education are given. Age will be from 12 till over 18, sometimes 20 year olds going to the same school complex/building
They ll have 1 teacher at 9, and then move on to the next one at 9.50.
So they might end up seeing 10 different teachers during the week. And imagine the amount of kids a single teacher will see during a week
Not too hard to imagine there is hardly any bond between teacher and kids.

The Sweeper

Neyite wrote: »

I would love to see workshops or seminars for girls in schools on recognising controlling or manipulative behaviour in relationships.

Quoted - which is something I never do - so I can just say 'plus approximately one billion'.

Morag

There are resources for this, which parents can use or those friends and family memebers who are concerned.

http://www.teensagainstabuse.org/
http://www.teenrelationships.org/quiz/
http://kidshealth.org/teen/your_mind/relationships/healthy_relationship.html?tracking=T_RelatedArticle

All teens should be taught to have healthy boundaries, which can be far from easy esp when they are head over heels for the first time or in their first 'proper' relationship.

seenitall

@ inforfun:

OK, getting a clearer picture now. Interesting, but perhaps not entirely surprising, I don't know.

I wonder what the situation is like in Ireland on that score, for my later reference . Like I said, my daughter is only small and has a class teacher who is directly responsible for her class, of course. The thing is, this is the system that holds true throughout both the primary and secondary education in my country of origin (for example). One class has one teacher assigned to it, who takes care of all the class admin (such as the roll call book, the roll being called at the beginning of each new 45-minute lesson period/class), and liaises with parents. If something goes wrong, like truancy, bad grades, bad behaviour etc, it is this teacher's responsibility to inform the parents, asap. The class stays in their own classroom throughout the day, it is the teachers who change classrooms from 9 o'clock to 9:50 etc. And schools tend to be smaller than you describe, even the secondary ones (14-18 years of age). I think it is a much better model.

egan2020

Das Kitty wrote: »

Eastenders did a storyline on this earlier in the year. I'd never considered the notion of that type of coercion before.

A spokesperson for Childline in the U.K. said the story protrayed in Eastenders was becoming more and more common in the U.K.

inforfun

seenitall wrote: »

@ inforfun:

OK, getting a clearer picture now. Interesting, but perhaps not entirely surprising, I don't know.

I wonder what the situation is like in Ireland on that score, for my later reference . Like I said, my daughter is only small and has a class teacher who is directly responsible for her class, of course. The thing is, this is the system that holds true throughout both the primary and secondary education in my country of origin (for example). One class has one teacher assigned to it, who takes care of all the class admin (such as the roll call book, the roll being called at the beginning of each new 45-minute lesson period/class), and liaises with parents. If something goes wrong, like truancy, bad grades, bad behaviour etc, it is this teacher's responsibility to inform the parents, asap. The class stays in their own classroom throughout the day, it is the teachers who change classrooms from 9 o'clock to 9:50 etc. And schools tend to be smaller than you describe, even the secondary ones (14-18 years of age). I think it is a much better model.

I went to school in Holland, many moons ago.
The only times my parents went to school was when i had behaved like the little bollocks i was.

In those days there were no such problems as described in the OP though.
This loverboy story is one of many that have hit the newspapers in Holland and it is one of the less shocking ones i have read.
And then still it is probably only the tip of the iceberg what has hit the newspapers.

Could it happen here?
Give it 10, maybe 15 years and it will be here as well.

discus

Do you not think it's here now, inforfun? Why 10 years from now? To wait for the moroccans to arrive?

inforfun

I live in Ireland now for 10 years.
In these 10 years i have seen things starting to happen that went on already in Holland in the early 90's.

I dont think you ll get the same problem with Moroccans like there are in Belgium/Holland/France.
And it is not just them, the Antiliians (Dutch Antilles) are the other big group of lover boys
Simply because those troublemakers were born in these countries, not recent immigrants.

The worst thing that could happen is that Ireland will also start those schools were 3 or 4000 kids are together every day in the same huge building.
Makes kids way too anonymous whether they are doing great or are in trouble.

Maybe it happens here now, i dont read about it though. But then again, i am not in school anymore nor do i have school going kids so i am no really close to it

LittleBook

seenitall wrote: »

I wonder what the situation is like in Ireland on that score, for my later reference

My daughter is in secondary school and they have "registration" first thing in the morning AND they do a quick roll at the beginning of every class. It's crazy that even in a huge school a child could be truant for four years.

I don't watch Eastenders but I read an article where various people were complaining about it and saying young teenagers shouldn't be exposed to that kind of storyline. Assuming it was accurately portrayed, I would have thought they were the exact audience who should have been watching it.

Corsendonk

Link to the Radio Netherlands Documentary that I mentioned in my original post.

Victor

seenitall wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

I imagine there is some simplifiaction and changing of the details, however not every parent has an ideal life either.

What does that mean? Is "not having an ideal life" an euphemism for "not bothering to chat to one's child's teacher/school for years on end?" Because if it is, I can tell you that as a single mother who has no family support in this country as a foreigner and works intermittently on a free-lance basis, I can still proudly boast of having an absolutely ideal life, and then some. Wow! :pac:

In fact, I find I very difficult to believe that a mother could be that lax about her child's welfare, school progress and general whereabouts, which is why my instinct was to, rightly or wrongly, put the responsibility for the failure to communicate at the school's door.

The girl's father is absent and there is no mention of another authority figure - it is possible (likely?) that it is a single parent household. Maybe htere are 6 other children to look after. Maybe the mother had medical issues. Maybe she abuses drugs. We don't know.

I am in no way saying that the lack of action was acceptable.

Morag

Many secondary schools are starting to use text to parents systems.
If mine are not in for roll call first class in the morning or first class after lunch and there is no note and I have not rung the school I will get a text message with in 20 mins of class starting.

This isn't new it has happened here but just it's not as talked about.

seenitall

Victor wrote: »

The girl's father is absent and there is no mention of another authority figure - it is possible (likely?) that it is a single parent household. Maybe htere are 6 other children to look after. Maybe the mother had medical issues. Maybe she abuses drugs. We don't know.

No, we don't know. Which still doesn't explain why you would think that a mother's life being less than perfect (hello again!) is - what? a reason? an excuse? a justification? - for her not to know her daughter is playing truant for years and being pimped out by her boyfriend. I mean, possible single-mother-of-6-sick-drug-addict or not, she seems to be together enough to be sueing the school.

Maybe that is not what you are in fact saying, but frankly, the point of your posts still escapes me.

gargleblaster

Well considering that the thread isn't about what kinds of bad things can happen to young girls with inattentive mothers (no matter if the mothers have socially acceptable reasons for being inattentive or not), I fail to see why there is such a focus on debating the reason the mother wasn't aware of her daughter's truancy.

It's probably just me but this seems to be dragging the focus away from the actual problem at hand, which is men coercing young girls into the practice of selling sex illegally, in a country where buying sex is legal.

seenitall

I wasn't aware that I was dragging the thread particularly off topic, gargleblaster; it's still a matter of discussing some of the issues raised by that article (to my mind, at least).

As for the actual problem at hand, as you say, my opinion on that is pretty conservative, I guess. It is that there will always be "men coercing young girls into the practice of selling sex illegally" out there, just as there will always be all kinds of other nasty types in the world; and that state of affairs is, I'm afraid, completely independent of the level of il/legality prostitution holds in a society. At least that is what my common sense is telling me; I'd be only glad to be proven wrong on that. Further to which, I think it is first and foremost the parents' role to give their children the attention and the protection they need, by supplying them with lots of love, some boundaries, education about self-awareness and peer pressure, facts about sex and about dangers which do lurk in a society at large. I don't mean scaremongering, I mean general social awareness. Knowledge is power; and I would add to that self-love and self-respect are possibly even greater powers for good.

I say that my opinion is conservative because I am not looking at this problem in a macro, think-tank, "what can be done about this society's ill?" way (I am usually pretty sceptical of this approach), I am looking at it in a micro, "how should I behave in order to minimize the risk of this happening to my daughter?" way. If anyone else thinks I am making any sense, all the better.

strandroad

The Journal has published a piece by a former Irish prostitute, in which she mentions a loverboy-like arrangement she was in at 16 as a starting point of her work in prostitution. She makes many interesting points about what really constitutes "free choice" in a situation like hers was and how she was treated by her punters.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-%E2%80%98i-thought-what-i-was-doing-was-normal%E2%80%99/

gargleblaster

seenitall wrote: »

It is that there will always be "men coercing young girls into the practice of selling sex illegally" out there, just as there will always be all kinds of other nasty types in the world; and that state of affairs is, I'm afraid, completely independent of the level of il/legality prostitution holds in a society.

This is why I look forward to more countries looking into the Swedish model.

Yes, there will always be perverted predators preying on susceptible people. However, making the practice of buying sex a socially unacceptable idea reduces the demand for prostitutes. Where it is legal, demand rises, because the idea of buying sex - the idea itself - becomes normalized and acceptable. This drives up demand and all of the problems which go along with the practice of buying sex increase. (Problems due to customers who do not want to wear condoms, who do not wish to be limited to practices which the prostitute would participate willingly in a legal arrangement, or who wish to buy sex from underage prostitutes.)

Yes, there will always be sick people who wish to exert their will on others with no regard for the other person as anything but an object to be used, but that is no reason to pretend that nothing can be done to change things for the better.

Jenneke87

Should it help to ease people's worries, I am from the Netherlands and the case mentioned in the opening post as been given a lot of media attention here....and has also proved to be false....

Sonics2k

gargleblaster wrote: »

This is why I look forward to more countries looking into the Swedish model.

I may be wrong here, but isn't the Swedish model becoming a bit of a disaster?
I'm trying to find a few articles I read lately, as well as discussions with numerous Swedish friends (mostly living around Gothenburg) that stated that it's not working out as it was believed it would.

I would prefer to see a system where prostitution is legalized, such as the Australian system. Where the State is in full control, and they even have Unions and Health Care services to ensure all the Male and Female prostitutes are well cared for, free of STD's and are in good health (physically and mentally).

One thing society has proven over the centuries, is that making something all out illegal, will not remove the problem. It can only make the matters worse, uncontrolled and a lot more dangerous for everyone involved.

I would however, like to see each and everyone one of these "Loverboys" (who can be both male and female fyi) strung up by the neck and beaten horribly.

strandroad

Sonics2k wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but isn't the Swedish model becoming a bit of a disaster?
I'm trying to find a few articles I read lately, as well as discussions with numerous Swedish friends (mostly living around Gothenburg) that stated that it's not working out as it was believed it would.

I would prefer to see a system where prostitution is legalized, such as the Australian system. Where the State is in full control, and they even have Unions and Health Care services to ensure all the Male and Female prostitutes are well cared for, free of STD's and are in good health (physically and mentally).

From what I gather none of these systems is good. I used to think that legalisation is the way to go but recent reports on the Amsterdam system say that it has not eliminated illegal trade and trafficking, only increased general demand (spreading it between illegal and legal supplies - if a punter can see that in some situations selling sex is legal, it makes it easier for him to avail of an illegal source, after all in his eyes what's the difference apart from the taxman's involvement), and made it easier to hide illegal activities among legal ones.

Prostitution seems to be one of these things where no perfect solution is ever possible. Actions should probably be prioritised so that elimination of trafficking and exploitation is paramount but if legalisation doesn't do it, what does?

Sonics2k

mhge wrote: »

From what I gather none of these systems is good. I used to think that legalisation is the way to go but recent reports on the Amsterdam system say that it has not eliminated illegal trade and trafficking, only increased general demand (spreading it between illegal and legal supplies - if a punter can see that in some situations selling sex is legal, it makes it easier for him to avail of an illegal source, after all in his eyes what's the difference apart from the taxman's involvement), and made it easier to hide illegal activities among legal ones.

Prostitution seems to be one of these things where no perfect solution is ever possible. Actions should probably be prioritised so that elimination of trafficking and exploitation is paramount but if legalisation doesn't do it, what does?

I would rather see the complete legalization of it, rather than the reverse. Amsterdam is just one place of many with legal prostitution, and while it has it's darker side, it's also mostly well controlled.

I'd prefer a system where the majority are kept safe, rather than a system where we ignore those who are involved and are forced to work for Pimps and gangs, drug usage increases, STD's become more rampant as does rape and physical abuse.

I suppose a good example would be this.
Nightclubs in themselves are harmless. People go there to drink, have fun, and maybe hook up with someone. A small percentage of those going to the clubs will start taking Ecstasy and other hard drugs. So it would be like banning clubs, because they can possibly lead to people doing illegal activities.

However, we've gone off the main post. So I'll stop, but talk about it via P.M if anyone wishes to.

I've given my opinion on traffickers and child molesters, and I'd happily see them all swing.

gargleblaster

I have seen claims that somehow the Swedish model is less successful than it seems by most measures. I have seen no concrete evidence to back it up.

The fact that legalizing the ability to buy sex increases demand trumps everything else imo. Rising demand means more suffering.

MacieC

Something seems off to me.

If the guy made the girl skip school to drag her from one flat to another, how come the school disciplinary board didn't bring notice to the girl's mother that her daughter was missing school days ?

I mean seriously, in most countries, when a kid skips school for more than one day, parents get word of it. This is really really strange.

However, I am glad I read this article because that may happen to any girl. Now, I can warn my sisters not to trust just anybody who calls them " cute " or " nice ". Aside from the Skins parties and other stuff, this is a whole another level of teenage manipulation. It's very scary what teens can be up to these days.


I really doubt it may happen in Ireland, especially because of girls only/boys only schools. Moreover, kids in Ireland are brought up with religious morals and values so I think they are grounded until they get into Uni. Plus, most kids seem to be really close to their parents (unless brought up by foster families and such) which I believe gives a certain emotional structure and barrier against such crime.
The Netherlands is definitely not what I can call a religious country, like many European countries, moral values are almost non-existant there. And the fact that it is easy access to Eastern population increases risks of children/females being taken advantage of. I know it sounds chauvinistic, but it's my true opinion.

I know you're gonna say but the US is a supposed religious country and so is the UK and that doesn't prevent crimes. I definitely agree those countries are far more liberal than Ireland to be honest.

I just wish Ireland would get out of the Schengen zone because reading this article, the Schengen zone is easy territory for child and female trafficking which leads to threatening public health and security. And it's really scary to think about when you see how much the population in Ireland has changed from 2009 onwards.

ArtSmart

Jenneke87 wrote: »

Should it help to ease people's worries, I am from the Netherlands and the case mentioned in the opening post as been given a lot of media attention here....and has also proved to be false....

Emme wrote: »

That could easily happen here but something else is happening here at the moment. I have heard of guys in their 30s from non-EU countries who seek out girls in their teens and early 20s. They often tell these girls they're in their 20s, get the girls pregnant, hang around long enough for the children to be born, get their name put on the child's birth cert and apparently that gives them the right to live and work in the EU. They don't necessarily stick around after that.

15 posts in.

wonder is that a record?

Ickle Magoo

ArtSmart, if you have nothing on-topic & constructive to contribute to the general discussion, then kindly refrain from posting.

Victor

Sonics2k wrote: »

I may be wrong here, but isn't the Swedish model becoming a bit of a disaster?
I'm trying to find a few articles I read lately, as well as discussions with numerous Swedish friends (mostly living around Gothenburg) that stated that it's not working out as it was believed it would.

I would prefer to see a system where prostitution is legalized, such as the Australian system. Where the State is in full control, and they even have Unions and Health Care services to ensure all the Male and Female prostitutes are well cared for, free of STD's and are in good health (physically and mentally).

One thing society has proven over the centuries, is that making something all out illegal, will not remove the problem. It can only make the matters worse, uncontrolled and a lot more dangerous for everyone involved.

I would however, like to see each and everyone one of these "Loverboys" (who can be both male and female fyi) strung up by the neck and beaten horribly.

You ralise that you are advocating for legalisation in a thread about child rape?

ArtSmart

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

ArtSmart, if you have nothing on-topic & constructive to contribute to the general discussion, then kindly refrain from posting.

WHAT????

I'm making quite an important point.

the post i highlighted is quite flagrantly racist. tell me i'm wrong.

the poster made reference to a completely different issue not related to the OP.

Ickle Magoo

ArtSmart wrote: »

WHAT????

I'm making quite an important point.

the post i highlighted is quite flagrantly racist. tell me i'm wrong.

If you have an issue with a post - you report it.

If you wish to counter a point, then you do so by addressing the points made and countering them with evidence and rational discussion of your own.

And if you have an issue with a moderator request - you PM them, as per site rules.

Many thanks

ArtSmart

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If you have an issue with a post - you report it.

If you wish to counter a point, then you do so by addressing the points made and countering them with evidence and rational discussion of your own.

And if you have an issue with a moderator request - you PM them, as per site rules.

Many thanks

fair nuff

Sonics2k

Victor wrote: »

You ralise that you are advocating for legalisation in a thread about child rape?

You realise you didn't read my post, nor the previous one I wrote correctly?

I distinctly said the Australian system, and I also gave my opinion on child molesters.

Victor

But you failed to separate the two (and/or you are off topic, but I'm not going there).

Sonics2k

Victor wrote: »

But you failed to separate the two (and/or you are off topic, but I'm not going there).

My apologies for not spelling it out directly.

After previous posts on these forums I was certain the people I was talking to (gargleblaster for one, a poster I enjoy debating and agreeing with) would be able to see the obvious separations in my post between prostitution between consenting adults, and child rape.

Anything else?

Corsendonk

Jenneke87 wrote: »

Should it help to ease people's worries, I am from the Netherlands and the case mentioned in the opening post as been given a lot of media attention here....and has also proved to be false....

Then how come Radio Netherlands broadcasted the documentary on the 23 Sept 2011 and still has it availiable on its website if the cases mentioned are false?