Strength Development Vs. Competition Form

columok

Quick (possibly pointless) question.

Take for example the bench press. A lot of bench press technique seems to be about increasing the arch, tightening up the shoulder blades and increasing leg drive. Developing this allows weights to be pushed heavier and heavier. Does this decreased range of motion sacrifice optimal strength development for bigger competition numbers or is the chasing of bigger competition lifts generally the best way to get stronger?

Therefore for those training not for comp lifts but simply to be "stronger" should they be (say) bench pressing with a different than competition form or doing what a powerlifter might and making the big 3/4 as heavy as possible?

squod

Always thought you should train to peak at competition time. Flat benching most of the year and dropping the reps and focusing on power few months before. No expert.

columok

squod wrote: »

Always thought you should train to peak at competition time. Flat benching most of the year and dropping the reps and focusing on power few months before. No expert.

Question wasn't really about peaking/periodisation for competition. It was more about whether training methods/forms focusing on competition are best for those without competitive goals.

Inspector Coptoor

My take on it would be to learn how to bench properly as you would in a competition.
It will help you bench properly for one thing, ie, bringing the bar to your chest and keeping your ar$e on the bench.
This will help you bench more in time & handling progressively heavier loads safely can only be a good thing.

Any shortcomings you feel this approach gives in terms of range of motion or whatever can be overcome by DB benching with a small arch either on the flat or incline.

columok

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

My take on it would be to learn how to bench properly as you would in a competition.
It will help you bench properly for one thing, ie, bringing the bar to your chest and keeping your ar$e on the bench.
This will help you bench more in time & handling progressively heavier loads safely can only be a good thing.

Any shortcomings you feel this approach gives in terms of range of motion or whatever can be overcome by DB benching with a small arch either on the flat or incline.

Just what I was wondering. Presumably have enough of an arch to be solid and tight without chasing having a MASSIVE arch.

Inspector Coptoor

columok wrote: »

Just what I was wondering. Presumably have enough of an arch to be solid and tight without chasing having a MASSIVE arch.

Yeah, that's what I'd be thinking.

Go fOr the big arch on the BB bench and a much more subtle arch then for DB work.

d'Oracle

columok wrote: »

Just what I was wondering. Presumably have enough of an arch to be solid and tight without chasing having a MASSIVE arch.

You don't have to have a huge arch (sacrilege I know).

I mean look at Doug Young.
Or Barry.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

You don't have to have a huge arch (sacrilege I know).

I mean look at Doug Young.
Or Barry.

Neither man is/was narrow.

Typically you see bigger arches in slimmer lifters.

COH

Hanley wrote: »

Neither man is/was narrow.

Typically you see bigger arches in slimmer lifters.

Hence my flat back

My touch and go bench is miles away from my paused bench, but I'm not entirely sure I understand the original question

d'Oracle

Whilst I'm sure Colum is flattered, I'm backing him to buck the trend.
Out of pig iron.

Edit: Both, before anyone asks.

columok

I prefer the word 'svelte'!

I bench to forget and also to improve my overhead strength. Therefore I have less interest in having a MASSIVE arch to be able to squeeze out an extra X kg. Pressing strength carryover is more my concern!

I'm taking from this thread should do more banded curls with a twist and ease up on the metcons to get massiver.

d'Oracle

You are not your bench press.

COH

columok wrote: »

I bench to forget and also to improve my overhead strength. Therefore I have less interest in having a MASSIVE arch to be able to squeeze out an extra X kg. Pressing strength carryover is more my concern!

Benching for overhead strength? From personal experience the only time my overhead pressing got noticably stronger was when I trained my overhead press. If you want to get stronger at an exercise then do it more often, and smash the accessory work. Bands for OH pressing is stupid unless you have a very high sticking point, but even then I reckon you'd be better off just getting better at the core exercise through repetition.

columok

COH wrote: »

Benching for overhead strength? From personal experience the only time my overhead pressing got noticably stronger was when I trained my overhead press. If you want to get stronger at an exercise then do it more often, and smash the accessory work. Bands for OH pressing is stupid unless you have a very high sticking point, but even then I reckon you'd be better off just getting better at the core exercise through repetition.

I'll try an do overhead work of some kind every session (3/4 times a week) whether thats speed work, heavy 1/2/3 or rep work. The bands have been useful but the main issue is how much pressure they seem to put on the spinities and the accompanying horrible DOMS. Louie Simmons seems to rate them for overhead work.

I reckoned that if my bench was very weak (as it was/is) i should at least bring it up to a decent level for my weight (c 99kg) so that it's less crap. Once my bench is up I'll focus on high incline benching as a substitute upperbody heavy compound.

Did you have a big bench when testing/training your OHP? 90% of the people/coaches i've talked to/read has said to have a big OHP you need a big bench!

COH

columok wrote: »

I'll try an do overhead work of some kind every session (3/4 times a week) whether thats speed work, heavy 1/2/3 or rep work. The bands have been useful but the main issue is how much pressure they seem to put on the spinities and the accompanying horrible DOMS. Louie Simmons seems to rate them for overhead work.

How often are you overhead pressing over ~90% of your 1rm? I'm hardly in a position to argue with Louie... I'm far to pretty compared to him But I would say that his athletes would get more out of that type of work since they're performing beyond the realms of us mortals, and are fighting hard for every half percentage at the extreme top end.

I reckoned that if my bench was very weak (as it was/is) i should at least bring it up to a decent level for my weight (c 99kg) so that it's less crap. Once my bench is up I'll focus on high incline benching as a substitute upperbody heavy compound.

If overhead pressing was my main concern I'd probably get my narrow grip bench up ahead of my regular bench.

Did you have a big bench when testing/training your OHP? 90% of the people/coaches i've talked to/read has said to have a big OHP you need a big bench!

I still dont have a big bench Big strong shoulders will get you a good bench, big strong pecs wont necessarily have the same effect on your OH pressing. My hemorage is wearing off I cant tell if I'm making any sense!

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

My take on it would be to learn how to bench properly as you would in a competition.
It will help you bench properly for one thing, ie, bringing the bar to your chest and keeping your ar$e on the bench.
This will help you bench more in time & handling progressively heavier loads safely can only be a good thing.

Any shortcomings you feel this approach gives in terms of range of motion or whatever can be overcome by DB benching with a small arch either on the flat or incline.

This, pretty much.

Plus a well executed arched bench effectively becomes a whole body exercise because you're tightly wound up like a spring.

I'd be seriously wary of anything Louie claims tbh... chances are in 24 months he'll have completely changed his mind and tell you it was stupid.

columok

COH wrote: »

How often are you overhead pressing over ~90% of your 1rm?

I try and go heavy maybe once a week with the OHP and Bench. Normally keep them 4 days apart. Press first in the week then bench. Other way around was majorly impacting my pressing.

COH wrote: »

If overhead pressing was my main concern I'd probably get my narrow grip bench up ahead of my regular bench.

Good call. My sticking point tends to be around my forehead. Crappy triceps.

COH wrote: »

I still dont have a big bench Big strong shoulders will get you a good bench, big strong pecs wont necessarily have the same effect on your OH pressing. My hemorage is wearing off I cant tell if I'm making any sense!

Lets put things in perspective though- my bench two months ago (before i started training it regularly again) was 90kg while my OHP was maybe 71kg.

Inspector Coptoor

columok wrote: »

[
Lets put things in perspective though- my bench two months ago (before i started training it regularly again) was 90kg while my OHP was maybe 71kg.

I don't understand how that puts things in perspective.
As a raw lifter it goes oh press, bench press, squat, deadlift in ascending order Of how much you can lift generally.

My best lifts in that order are 80,117.5, 170, 215.

Your shoulders aren't as powerful as your pecs, tris, lats & the rest combined.

Plus, an oh press of 75% bw is considered pretty decent and you're very nearly there.

Stop thinking about it so much, stop fluting around with bands & chains & just lift more more often.

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

Stop thinking about it so much, stop fluting around with bands & chains & just lift more more often.

This again, tbh.

While I agree it's important to enjoy training, keep things fresh, and hit PRs, if you're SOLELY concerned with hitting a bigger OHP then you'd be better served doing more of that.

But like, at 75% of bodyweight already, you're not doing bad.

columok

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I don't understand how that puts things in perspective.

That my press (currently 75kg @ 99bw) isn't far off my bench (95kg). I would have thought there should be a decent number of kg between them. Even just in terms of your system being used to pressing large amounts of kg - which you won't get through OHP! Again I'd be interested in finding a single big presser who doesn't have a big bench! I appreciate that may not be causation just correlation (ie nobody really trains the press as a primary upper body lift any more)

EDIT: The answer is probably Klokov etc! Lots of heavy heavy jerks + snatches!

Hanley wrote: »

This again, tbh.

While I agree it's important to enjoy training, keep things fresh, and hit PRs, if you're SOLELY concerned with hitting a bigger OHP then you'd be better served doing more of that.

But like, at 75% of bodyweight already, you're not doing bad.

Just need to get to that fabled 81.456% and then I'm golden

Inspector Coptoor

20kg is a decent number of kgs colum.

Anyone with a big bench and big press is generally a strong person who trains the lifts heavy and frequently.

What I'm trying to say really is that your lifts aren't that bad, they are on the intermediate level of rippetoes table.

Going beyond intermediate and into the advanced bracket takes a lot of Hard work.

token

columok had never benched at all until recently so I think keeping that in there will boost his raw pushing strength bringing up his press. Usually anyone with a CF background has a pretty solid press from going overhead so much but they mostly have weak benches/dips. My press shot up 5kg without pressing at all when I added bench presses back in coming from the same background.

Hanley

token wrote: »

columok had never benched at all until recently so I think keeping that in there will boost his raw pushing strength bringing up his press. Usually anyone with a CF background has a pretty solid press from going overhead so much but they mostly have weak benches/dips. My press shot up 5kg without pressing at all when I added bench presses back in coming from the same background.

Was tha because you were pressing less frequently and probably weren't suffering movement fatigue?

Did you continue to gain on your press thanks to benching...?

token

Hanley wrote: »

Was tha because you were pressing less frequently and probably weren't suffering movement fatigue?

No nothing to do with that I just went from not benching at all to benching once a week. I was finding 70kg for 5's challenging when I started again and got up to 80kg for 5's. Press went from 65kg to 70kg one day when I joined in maxing with Column. I was pleasantly surprised as I had been doing no pressing whatsoever.

Hanley wrote: »

Did you continue to gain on your press thanks to benching...?

My benching frequency got sketchy after that because of oly lifting comps and stuff so couldn't tell ya. I'm guessing the benefit would have slowed down a lot but I reckon I'd have got another few kg out of it.

In general I find CF'ers are very adept at going overhead and are very efficient at the movement but lack raw pushing strength and once they add in bench the press shoots up a lot. I had a similar affect when I added weighted ring dips while I was still CF'ing but it wasn't as pronounced.

Hanley

token wrote: »

No nothing to do with that I just went from not benching at all to benching once a week. I was finding 70kg for 5's challenging when I started again and got up to 80kg for 5's. Press went from 65kg to 70kg one day when I joined in maxing with Column. I was pleasantly surprised as I had been doing no pressing whatsoever.

So in response to my Q, which said “did you go from pressing loads to not pressing much, and as a result probably weren’t fatigued from the doing the same movement over and over again”, the answer is yes?

My point being - if you’re constantly hammering away on something for a long time, you never REALLY fully recover, and the act of taking some time off from that lift can be enough to result in a gain.

It’s correlation and causation - I could just as easily say your press got better cos you stopped pressing ya know?

columok

Hanley wrote: »

So in response to my Q, which said “did you go from pressing loads to not pressing much, and as a result probably weren’t fatigued from the doing the same movement over and over again”, the answer is yes?

My point being - if you’re constantly hammering away on something for a long time, you never REALLY fully recover, and the act of taking some time off from that lift can be enough to result in a gain.

It’s correlation and causation - I could just as easily say your press got better cos you stopped pressing ya know?

How would you define 'pressing loads'? No high volume strength training was done in CFI from the second total. There was no observable pattern of heavy-moderate pressing in metcons either.

Again aside from weightlifters who get some heavy overhead stimulus from jerks and snatches I would query whether it is possible to get big pressing numbers without having a big or even moderate bench! Presumably strongmen bench heavy too?

token

Hanley wrote: »

So in response to my Q, which said “did you go from pressing loads to not pressing much, and as a result probably weren’t fatigued from the doing the same movement over and over again”, the answer is yes?

My point being - if you’re constantly hammering away on something for a long time, you never REALLY fully recover, and the act of taking some time off from that lift can be enough to result in a gain.

It’s correlation and causation - I could just as easily say your press got better cos you stopped pressing ya know?

No I really do mean what I said. I was not hammering away at press beforehand. At CFI's last winter strength challenge I worked my way around the schedule so I would have more squatting days which meant I mostly dropped the press day so I was doing that movement pretty infrequently. I did hspus and weight ring dips on my own time to compensate.

token

columok wrote: »

Again aside from weightlifters who get some heavy overhead stimulus from jerks and snatches I would query whether it is possible to get big pressing numbers without having a big or even moderate bench! Presumably strongmen bench heavy too?

Yeah I should add that I felt heavy jerks aided my pressing also in having a much more solid base to press off and my speed at starting the pressing movement was much better. My jerk is 1.5 times my press so press felt like nothing when I took it out the rack. I still mostly attribute it to benching though.

Hanley

RE: CF and overhead work - I was talking about it on a volume basis, not an intensity basis. So regardless of weight, if you’re working hard and fatiguing yourself with weight overhead 3-4x per week, max strength’s probably gonna take a dip. Once you’ve a break from it and some time off, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 5-10% increase in strength out of nowhere.

RE: strongman and benching - I feel I’ve a basis to comment on this because I’ve trained with a WSM competitor, the winner of Ireland’s strongest man u105 last year and the current junior (I think?) Ireland’s strongest man. From pure observation of their training, none of them benched THAT frequently. And when they did, it was mostly incline stuff. I never discussed benching increasing their press, but heard them comment numerous times about how not benching and doing more overhead work improves their bench numbers. Take that for what you will.

What’s your logic for needing a big bench to press big? IMO, the key requirements for a good press is supporting strength (thru your core, upper back etc etc), strong shoulders, strong triceps and good technique. It’s not really essential to bench to train any of them, you could argue close grip benching will have a positive carryover, and I’d probably agree, but I don’t think massively strong pecs are what’s going to make or break OH strength.

But as always, I’m open to correction.

And the reason, as I’m sure you’re aware, that your bench and press numbers are so close is because you’ve only started benching frequently right? The more you bench, the bigger that gaps going to become as your body gets used to the movement. It’s not necessarily as case of becoming stronger all over, just more neurologically efficient on that movement.

columok

Good post!

Hanley wrote: »

RE: CF and overhead work - I was talking about it on a volume basis, not an intensity basis. So regardless of weight, if you’re working hard and fatiguing yourself with weight overhead 3-4x per week, max strength’s probably gonna take a dip. Once you’ve a break from it and some time off, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 5-10% increase in strength out of nowhere.

Probably not the case with myself or token but would agree that this would be the case for those who hammer away at this kind of volume.

Hanley wrote: »

RE: strongman and benching - I feel I’ve a basis to comment on this because I’ve trained with a WSM competitor, the winner of Ireland’s strongest man u105 last year and the current junior (I think?) Ireland’s strongest man. From pure observation of their training, none of them benched THAT frequently. And when they did, it was mostly incline stuff. I never discussed benching increasing their press, but heard them comment numerous times about how not benching and doing more overhead work improves their bench numbers. Take that for what you will.

Thats interesting alright. I had thought the incline is a good substititute ( I mean a really high incline like 60deg maybe). Bill Starr is a big man for same. I think a second seated compound is helpful because it takes a lot of the hammering of the lowerback out of the equation. I find seated militarys are a bit fiddlier than seated high inclines.

Hanley wrote: »

What’s your logic for needing a big bench to press big? IMO, the key requirements for a good press is supporting strength (thru your core, upper back etc etc), strong shoulders, strong triceps and good technique. It’s not really essential to bench to train any of them, you could argue close grip benching will have a positive carryover, and I’d probably agree, but I don’t think massively strong pecs are what’s going to make or break OH strength.

I would have thought a few factors (all of which could be rubbish btw). Strong lats from benching, good tight scap platform for launching that press, development of triceps and maybe your body not freaking out pushing a greater than bodyweight weight. Are massively strong pecs the key component of a big bench?

Hanley wrote: »

And the reason, as I’m sure you’re aware, that your bench and press numbers are so close is because you’ve only started benching frequently right? The more you bench, the bigger that gaps going to become as your body gets used to the movement. It’s not necessarily as case of becoming stronger all over, just more neurologically efficient on that movement.

No agreed alright. At the point where my bench starting galloping off into the distance I felt I'd ditch it as I knew I had "caught up" on that component of my upper body strength to some extent!

Funnily enough Dave C didn't reckon there was much carryover between the two and advocated more heavy ass overhead work while Will W reckoned that a big bench was a prerequisite for a big press.

Hard to know really? Did said strongmen have a decent bench foundation (training it a lot earlier in their career). Could you get the same heavy weight neural stimulation through jerks and push presses - even with my lack of technical proficiency.

One thing I will say is that before press maxing- some really heavy walkouts were helpful!

token

Forgot about push presses. Glenn Pendlay raves about them producing big press and big benches.

columok

token wrote: »

Forgot about push presses. Pendlay Friend raves about them producing big press and big benches.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/too_much_muscle_the_glenn_pendlay_secret

Yup think its this one. I wonder is it an issue with push-presses if they get a bit "jerky" or is the main thing just to explosively lift heavy stuff over your head a bunch of times? I find as they get heavier I start getting under the bar more.

token

columok wrote: »

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/too_much_muscle_the_glenn_pendlay_secret

Yup think its this one. I wonder is it an issue with push-presses if they get a bit "jerky" or is the main thing just to explosively lift heavy stuff over your head a bunch of times? I find as they get heavier I start getting under the bar more.

You are such a...

Take your time with learning the movement then so they don't turn jerky. No one got big arms from jerks so keep it stricter. Be like Klokov.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtxQFmRlKaY

I wonder what his bench is? :pac:

Kev M

You're thinking waaaay too much about this. Bench for bench, OH press for OH press. Do some triceps with both.

But if it needs to be discussed, I have 2 cents . I think the OH work does alot for bench, but I don't think benching does much for the OH.

Before I started any OH stuff, I was benching ~120kgs. The first time I tried OH strict presses I probably wouldn't have put up 60kgs.... So having a semi-okay bench didn't do jack for my OH press. However, all increases in OH strict pressing (60 to 90kg) saw similar increases in bench (120kg to 150kg). - of course this is also because I continued training bench hard.

The SM Hanley was referring to is another example. Similarly, was benching 100 for ~ 12 reps at the time, started push pressing and couldn't get ~110 at first, and couldn't put up the 70kg DB for 1. Once the OH training really took off though his bench went through the roof.

COH

Kev M wrote: »

Bench for bench, OH press for OH press. Do some triceps with both

I agree 100% and I think Handler said pretty much the same. The problem with advice like this is that it sounds to simple to be true. Theres no force velocitisation, strength curves or enough gadgets to be percieved as good advice.

Hanley

COH wrote: »

I agree 100% and I think Handler said pretty much the same. The problem with advice like this is that it sounds to simple to be true. Theres no force velocitisation, strength curves or enough gadgets to be percieved as good advice.

YEAH!! What he said...

Sure since Doug Young was used an example earlier on why you don't need a big arch to bench big, I'm going to use him as an example of how you don't need fancy **** or "cutting edge" programming to get strong.

d'Oracle

But Doug Youngs programming was more complicated than most.

Pretty much every programme is some manipulation of weight increases over some similar number of sets and reps.

Doug had that messing with "how many reps I hit on the last day? Then I'll add x for every y reps over z"
Its actually really simple, but probably a lot more complicated than "lift x" or "lift this x+1" or "lift as heavy as you can for x reps"

And why are we talking about cutting edge or force whatever? Who does that?
Colum does presses, bench, dips, and lockout work (cos his lockout is a weak point on pretty much every pressing motion he does) what the hell is complicated about that?

columok

Kev M wrote: »

You're thinking waaaay too much about this. Bench for bench, OH press for OH press. Do some triceps with both.

In fairness its a discussion forum. If we weren't all thinking too much about this and just "going off and training" then there wouldn't really be one!
I had thought that with a weak bench getting those bench numbers up would be the best thing for the triceps. And at that point getting onto JM Presses or close-grip bench as COH said.

COH wrote: »

I agree 100% and I think Handler said pretty much the same. The problem with advice like this is that it sounds to simple to be true. Theres no force velocitisation, strength curves or enough gadgets to be percieved as good advice.

Me and my force velocitisation! Who is this directed at?

Hanley wrote: »

YEAH!! What he said...

Sure since Doug Young was used an example earlier on why you don't need a big arch to bench big, I'm going to use him as an example of how you don't need fancy **** or "cutting edge" programming to get strong.

Again not sure who this is directed at?

COH

columok wrote: »

Me and my force velocitisation! Who is this directed at?

I was speaking in broad terms, not directed at you in particular but it does apply. The best advice is often the most basic. Its easy to over complicate training with T-Nationism's etc.. people are more inclined to do a program by Christian Thibadibadabadoo because its too complicated not to work.

Andy Bolton did a seminar last year, in the Q&A he was asked

- Hows your recovery?
'I sleep when I'm tired'
- How many calories a day do you eat?
'Loads'

It wasnt sciency enough for general consumption, but it was probably the best advice they were ever given.

My bench/squats for example have never been stronger, because I bench and squat alot, and train the accessory muscles to help facilitate them. In 2010 when I wanted to get my deadlift up from 210 to 270 I deadlifted alot... there is a pattern here. Hence what Kev said

Bench for bench, OH press for OH press. Do some triceps with both

If I were to focus on OH pressing I'd do the same thing. And eat and sleep alot :cool:

Hanley

columok wrote: »

Again not sure who this is directed at?

Anyone doing stupid sh*t!!!

It’s funny how the strongest guys on the forum are the ones who just lift and try to add more weight to the bar each week without any fancy crap - Vis, COH, Kevpants, Kev M etc etc

columok

COH wrote: »

I was speaking in broad terms, not directed at you in particular but it does apply. The best advice is often the most basic. Its easy to over complicate training with T-Nationism's etc.. people are more inclined to do a program by Christian Thibadibadabadoo because its too complicated not to work.

If I were to focus on OH pressing I'd do the same thing. And eat and sleep alot :cool:

No defo agree. The majority of my programming is built around a single compound with some accessory work thrown in. Looking at my (say) last 10 upper body training sessions every one has been based around a simple enough compound lift (push press, bench, press, bench, push press, bench, press, press) with one instance of a rev band press and then some varied accessory work. I think the OH Press is something you have to rotate 2 or 3 main lifts around since its such a fiddley ****er while still doing lighter tech pressing on your other days.

I would have thought that there was an interrelationship between bench and ohp much like squat and deadlift. And obviously OHP is held back by your max squat (in terms of the max amount of weight your body isn't crappings itself standing under).

EDIT: I would also argue that leanback on the OHP and the havoc it can reap on the lowerbody does limit the amount of it you can do. (Esp w/ a spine like mine!)

Hanley

columok wrote: »

I would have thought that there was an interrelationship between bench and ohp much like squat and deadlift. And obviously OHP is held back by your max squat (in terms of the max amount of weight your body isn't crappings itself standing under).

To a given point. At my strongest I pressed the same as Kev M, but out squatted him by maybe 60+kg? So obviously his squat was high enough for it not to be a limiting factor.

I know you're not suggesting bigger squat = bigger press like

I mean.. I hope you're not :mad:

columok

Hanley wrote: »

To a given point. At my strongest I pressed the same as Kev M, but out squatted him by maybe 60+kg? So obviously his squat was high enough for it not to be a limiting factor.

I know you're not suggesting bigger squat = bigger press like

I mean.. I hope you're not :mad:

Only at extreme lower limits. Ie if your max squat is 90kg and your press is 60kg you're unlikely to be able to press +90kg. The weaknesses in your squat are also weaknesses in your press. Like Pendlay was talking about a front squat needing to increase to improve leg drive in a push press. Same muscles.

d'Oracle

columok wrote: »

EDIT: I would also argue that leanback on the OHP and the havoc it can reap on the lowerbody does limit the amount of it you can do. (Esp w/ a spine like mine!)

Sort out your thoracic mobility.
You started a thread about not arching in the bench.
Now you are talking about lean back screwing your lower body.

Sounds like you can't arch and you are bending your lower back in presses.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Sort out your thoracic mobility.
You started a thread about not arching in the bench.
Now you are talking about lean back screwing your lower body.

Sounds like you can't arch and you are bending your lower back in presses.

Something as simple as squeezing your glutes can go a long way to fixing this too.

gymsoldier

Hanley wrote: »

Something as simple as squeezing your glutes can go a long way to fixing this too.

+1 on this. It works.

itsallaboutheL

I have an alright OHP

Thing s that i found helped were

1) pushing close-grip numbers

2) behind the neck pressing

3) millions of rows

I don't rate push presses, because 99% of people can't do them properly, myself included, BTN push presses are probably a better shout imo, not as easy to **** up bar path.

Hanley

gymsoldier wrote: »

+1 on this. It works.

...which brings me onto another point - people try to fix "weaknesses" when the real problem is their just not engaging the right muscles or firing in the correct sequence.

Last night I "fixed" two girls squats just by getting them to drive their head into the bar. They WERE getting kicked forward which means they must have a weak core right? No... they just weren't engaging the right muscles and movement patterns.

Only a vaguely related point, but it's something for people to consider before jumping to targeted weak point training.

kevpants

columok wrote: »

No defo agree. The majority of my programming is built around a single compound with some accessory work thrown in. Looking at my (say) last 10 upper body training sessions every one has been based around a simple enough compound lift (push press, bench, press, bench, push press, bench, press, press) with one instance of a rev band press and then some varied accessory work. I think the OH Press is something you have to rotate 2 or 3 main lifts around since its such a fiddley ****er while still doing lighter tech pressing on your other days.

I would have thought that there was an interrelationship between bench and ohp much like squat and deadlift. And obviously OHP is held back by your max squat (in terms of the max amount of weight your body isn't crappings itself standing under).

EDIT: I would also argue that leanback on the OHP and the havoc it can reap on the lowerbody does limit the amount of it you can do. (Esp w/ a spine like mine!)

Jesus crispy pancakes you think way too much.

There's no inter-relationships between lifts. There are just varying degrees of strong people. Big people can move big weights.

Your shoulders will get stronger when you strengthen your shoulders. Never ever doing a lift means you'll probabaly be comparibly crap at it when you decide to try it.

As you develop into a stronger or bigger person all of your lifts will grow with you. The ones you pay most attention to will grow the most.

Case in point. I can powersnatch 80kg, I never train it. To smaller people starting out that's a great number, in comparison to my strength in other things it's terrible.

It grew as I grew but it's crap relative to the things I actually train.

That's all there is to it.

If you were really ballsy you could try this for your OHP. Every day for the next 2 months you must lift at least 50% of your bodyweight over your head at least once. Reps don't matter, % doesn't matter just lift what you feel like.

I know you won't do it but if you did I bet your OHP would go up and you'd learn to stop thinking about it so much.

columok

kevpants wrote: »

Jesus crispy pancakes you think way too much.

There's no inter-relationships between lifts. There are just varying degrees of strong people. Big people can move big weights.

Your shoulders will get stronger when you strengthen your shoulders. Never ever doing a lift means you'll probabaly be comparibly crap at it when you decide to try it.

As you develop into a stronger or bigger person all of your lifts will grow with you. The ones you pay most attention to will grow the most.

Case in point. I can powersnatch 80kg, I never train it. To smaller people starting out that's a great number, in comparison to my strength in other things it's terrible.

It grew as I grew but it's crap relative to the things I actually train.

That's all there is to it.

If you were really ballsy you could try this for your OHP. Every day for the next 2 months you must lift at least 50% of your bodyweight over your head at least once. Reps don't matter, % doesn't matter just lift what you feel like.

I know you won't do it but if you did I bet your OHP would go up and you'd learn to stop thinking about it so much.

I'm thinking about it too much on a discussion forum, cause I'm bored. When I'm training I just train and put in decent time "just lifting things". The first doesn't preclude the second!

Hanley

columok wrote: »

I'm thinking about it too much on a discussion forum, cause I'm bored. When I'm training I just train and put in decent time "just lifting things". The first doesn't preclude the second!

I actually hate these discussions cos you can almost argue both sides convincingly.

I managed to make a case for round back DL'n the other day to someone FFS!