Electric Cars

who what when

Other than the nissan leaf are there any other electric cars on the market in ireland? Or is there any due for release in the near future?
Does anyone on here have any experience with electric cars?
Would you recommend getting one?

The reason i ask is im thinking about getting an EV. Just sick of paying over €1.50 a litre for petrol. Any advice would be appreciated.

Atomic Pineapple

Some old fella in a Renault one nearly ran me down in a car park in one, so I know you can at least get a Renault one too

who what when

But isnt there a grant available for them? Or does that €30,000 include the grant?

R.O.R

OSI wrote: »

There are a couple of others Mitsubishi iMiev, and Peuegeot iOn I think. But the leaf is the only one that's really close to suitable as a daily car, and at €30,000 new, you'd want to be doing a hell of a lot of mileage to warrant changing.

There's also the Citroen version of the iMiev and iOn, which I did drive briefly.

It was OK - small box with no gears and no noise. Quicker than I thought it would be.

Sesshoumaru

The Leaf is roughly 30k after grant. But you own every part of the car, including the battery. The Renault Fluence ZE will be a good bit cheaper but you pay around €70 per month to lease the battery. There is also the Mitsubishi imiev and the Peugeot / Citroen clones of that car. Then next year you should be able to purchase the new model Ford Focus electric. Both Nissan and Renault are bring more EV's to the market, check out their websites. Then the Opel Ampera should be hitting the market soon enough as well. That list isn't exhaustive, but those are some options on the market or coming very soon to the market.

leckyjim

I am convinced the way forward is electric. The renault ze is coming on market for €21,500 with €79 per month battery rental. €104 road tax.
I spend €300 on diesel a month. €650 on road tax p.a, and €500 on maintenance p.a.
About €380 per month. Thats without depreciation on the car.
For a brand new fluence with (100,000 km maintenance for the Four moving parts), and electric charges of €50pm and battery rental, I can get a brand new car for nothing against my current 10yr old car. Makes sense

leckyjim

Anybody got an I-Miev?

pajo1981

Cool review of the Renault Ze:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6g3QuOnVCs

si_guru

leckyjim wrote: »

I am convinced the way forward is electric. The renault ze is coming on market for €21,500 with €79 per month battery rental. €104 road tax.
I spend €300 on diesel a month. €650 on road tax p.a, and €500 on maintenance p.a.
About €380 per month. Thats without depreciation on the car.
For a brand new fluence with (100,000 km maintenance for the Four moving parts), and electric charges of €50pm and battery rental, I can get a brand new car for nothing against my current 10yr old car. Makes sense

There might be a flaw in your plan - Range. Can you live with the limted range (150Km IIRC) between charges?

leckyjim

I travel 90 miles. If i hypermile, and do a short charge, I should make it. They say its up to 180kms

Sesshoumaru

leckyjim wrote: »

I travel 90 miles. If i hypermile, and do a short charge, I should make it. They say its up to 180kms

I hate raising bad points on any EV, but I drove the Fluence ZE when they were in Carton House, same place as in the video review. First thing I didn't like about the car was the boot space. They haven't put the battery under the floor like in the Leaf, best to check it out yourself to see if you can live with the compromised boot space. The battery pack is a giant column rising up into the boot.

Leasing the battery might suit some people. But when I asked at the event, Renault confirmed there is a mileage limit on the lease. I could be slightly wrong on this, but I think it was 15,000km per year. You would pay extra beyond whatever the annual limit is.

Besides those two points it drove pretty well and the interior cabin space was good. Just like a regular Fluence except quieter and smoother.

pudzey101

goona sound like a n00b here ! ha how are they run? like is there a removable battery you charge??

Sesshoumaru

pudzey101 wrote: »

goona sound like a n00b here ! ha how are they run? like is there a removable battery you charge??

There is a J1772 port on the side that you plug in. The Fluence has a more capable on-board charger compared to the Leaf, so charging from home will take 3 to 4 hours to get from 0% to 100%. It can also handle triple phase AC charging, so the on street charging (which are all AC triple phase) will charge it from 0% to 100% in about 1 hour. It doesn't have a DC port, so it can't use the DC rapid chargers in the likes of Topaz and Texaco.

copeyhagen

hydrogen seems to be the future, have been in the ESB leaf a few times, not too bad though.
why spend 21k on something which could end up being obsolete in 5 years.

leckyjim

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I hate raising bad points on any EV, but I drove the Fluence ZE when they were in Carton House, same place as in the video review. First thing I didn't like about the car was the boot space. They haven't put the battery under the floor like in the Leaf, best to check it out yourself to see if you can live with the compromised boot space. The battery pack is a giant column rising up into the boot.

Leasing the battery might suit some people. But when I asked at the event, Renault confirmed there is a mileage limit on the lease. I could be slightly wrong on this, but I think it was 15,000km per year. You would pay extra beyond whatever the annual limit is.

Besides those two points it drove pretty well and the interior cabin space was good. Just like a regular Fluence except quieter and smoother.

Not too pushed on boot size as I only transport myself. Wifes car is ok for that and other long journeys.

Guy:Incognito

copeyhagen wrote: »

why spend 21k on something which could end up being obsolete in 5 years.

Only it the same way any car is "obsolete" in 5 years.

It's not like electricity is going to stop being generated.

leckyjim

Electric car technology is older than petrol/diesel. Your washing machine has an electic engine in it. As a child do you remember the milk floats and bread vans that were electric. Its all about battery technology!

Sesshoumaru

copeyhagen wrote: »

hydrogen seems to be the future, have been in the ESB leaf a few times, not too bad though.
why spend 21k on something which could end up being obsolete in 5 years.

This is a good video where you can see the Leaf being assembled, including the battery pack being inserted. It's not a huge deal to remove it and I expect in 5 years time that it will be old technology. However I don't expect the rest of the cars systems (electric motor, safety systems etc) to be obsolete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

copeyhagen

fair points, but nows probably not the time to get into the EV market.

as a ridiculous comparison lets look at say, the ipod. (RIP STEVE!)

first gen were bulky, had sh1t battery life, couldnt hold many songs (compared to todays)

look how quickly the technology advanced.

if electric vehicles are the future, i would be waiting till they have progressed before dumping money on one.

thebman

leckyjim wrote: »

I am convinced the way forward is electric. The renault ze is coming on market for €21,500 with €79 per month battery rental. €104 road tax.
I spend €300 on diesel a month. €650 on road tax p.a, and €500 on maintenance p.a.
About €380 per month. Thats without depreciation on the car.
For a brand new fluence with (100,000 km maintenance for the Four moving parts), and electric charges of €50pm and battery rental, I can get a brand new car for nothing against my current 10yr old car. Makes sense

21,500 is a bit steep considering your renting the battery from them. Was hoping it would be about 15,000 then it would be a very competitive alternative.

Good enough I suppose I can just avoid them for a while longer until the range builds up this way and not be tempted

leckyjim

Not sue if there will be scrappage and trade ins on this. I'll let you know though

pajo1981

copeyhagen wrote: »

hydrogen seems to be the future, have been in the ESB leaf a few times, not too bad though.
why spend 21k on something which could end up being obsolete in 5 years.

I guarantee you there will not be one H car on the market in five years time.

positron

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The Leaf is roughly 30k after grant. But you own every part of the car, including the battery. The Renault Fluence ZE will be a good bit cheaper but you pay around €70 per month to lease the battery. There is also the Mitsubishi imiev and the Peugeot / Citroen clones of that car. Then next year you should be able to purchase the new model Ford Focus electric. Both Nissan and Renault are bring more EV's to the market, check out their websites. Then the Opel Ampera should be hitting the market soon enough as well. That list isn't exhaustive, but those are some options on the market or coming very soon to the market.

Interesting times ahead. I really hope these become more affordable with competition, and in a few years, I will go straight from current 2 liter that runs on dino-juice car to an electric one!

PS: Noticed there's an e-car charging point on R132 (Drogheda-Dublin/M1) between the two AppleGreen garages. Strangely, there isn't much to do there while you wait the car to charge. Which makes me wonder, in future, all parking lots in shopping centers, fast food chains etc will all feature charging stations - fuel up the car while you fuel up yourself. Perfect!

MadYaker

At the moment electric cars aren't really a viable alternative to internal combustion. Their range is far too short and the electricity they run on mostly comes from fossill fuels anyway so whats the point?

positron

OSI wrote: »

My only problem there is, how do you stop people being dicks and unplugging your car while you're in having a munch.

Imagine, you see you're running out of juice, spot a restaurant and decide to stop for food while you charge the car, only to come out after your meal to find someone has unplugged the car and it's just as charged as it was when you arrived.

I suppose the electric cars and charging points would become way common, no one would care to pull pranks like that.

PS: On the other hand, I am sure the cars will be equipped to ping/text/poke/alert you on your smart phone when it reaches a certain charge level / or range (enough to get home etc), and the same system probably can alert you if it stops charging. It's easy to do when you think about it.

positron

MadYaker wrote: »

At the moment electric cars aren't really a viable alternative to internal combustion. Their range is far too short and the electricity they run on mostly comes from fossill fuels anyway so whats the point?

No one is trying to replace ALL internal combustion devices out there with electric ones I suppose. Like with everything else, it's suits certain needs and scenarios, like a fixed routine commute within the range limit of the car, or a long trip with well planned breaks for refueling etc.

Electricity has the potential to be generated from non-fossil fuel sources, and we are guaranteed to be out of fossil-fuels in not too distant future. So, suppose this is not just reasonable, but almost inevitable.

Right now the argument, to me, would be that electric cars are cheaper to run than petrol cars, again, for my driving requirements (may not suit yours).

who what when

Heres something i'm wondering.
Lets say EV technology keeps anvancing and in ten years time it will be possible to buy an electric car with a range of say 300 miles and relatively quick charge times. And also say the EV prices would be only marginally more expensive than normal cars.

In a case like this how would the government recap all the lost revenue on lost excise? They couldnt just lump it on electricity!.... or could they?

Anan1

who what when wrote: »

In a case like this how would the government recap all the lost revenue on lost excise? They couldnt just lump it on electricity!.... or could they?

Sure they could. Either that or they'll take it elsewhere. Or lop it off services. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Sesshoumaru

positron wrote: »

I suppose the electric cars and charging points would become way common, no one would care to pull pranks like that.

PS: On the other hand, I am sure the cars will be equipped to ping/text/poke/alert you on your smart phone when it reaches a certain charge level / or range (enough to get home etc), and the same system probably can alert you if it stops charging. It's easy to do when you think about it.

The Leaf sends you an email when charging stops. The cable automatically locks to the charger while it is charging and the car end can be locked as well.

Sesshoumaru

Anan1 wrote: »

Sure they could. Either that or they'll take it elsewhere. Or lop it off services. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

We don't have fossil fuels in Ireland. There is the possibility though that we could generate most electricity domestically from non fossil fuel sources. That is the big difference, half the cost of fossil fuels leave the local economy and go back to places like Saudi Arabia. Local energy production means, local jobs and local salaries with taxes etc.

metzengerstein

got my 1st look at a small hyundai electric car .i was shocked at how flimsey it was .body work is plastic, in a crash i could imagine being crumpled into a small ball .or just being disintegrated .i would not feel safe at all .and im very weary of the batteries similar to forklift batteries they can be very hazardous . for 1 they give off a gasses which are flamable.

positron

anecdotal != factual

Sesshoumaru

metzengerstein wrote: »

got my 1st look at a small hyundai electric car .i was shocked at how flimsey it was .body work is plastic, in a crash i could imagine being crumpled into a small ball .or just being disintegrated .i would not feel safe at all .and im very weary of the batteries similar to forklift batteries they can be very hazardous . for 1 they give off a gasses which are flamable.

I don't know a lot about forklifts, but just looking around the net they don't seem to use lithium based battery technology.

http://forklift.ie/services/batteries.html
http://www.electraction.ie/products/batteries1/traction-forklift-batteries1

Did this Hyundai you looked at have lead acid batteries? I've never seen the car you are talking about, but other EV's I've driven like the Nissan Leaf and Renault Fluence are pretty well put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nsb7SkrpyE

September1

who what when wrote: »

Does anyone on here have any experience with electric cars?
Would you recommend getting one?

The reason i ask is im thinking about getting an EV. Just sick of paying over €1.50 a litre for petrol. Any advice would be appreciated.

I brought Nissan LEAF from UK (no VRT:D on EVs) and it seems like a very cheap way to move around... especially for longer journeys, as quick chargers seem to be free to use. For daily commuting it is like a petrol car with automatic gearbox and infinite fuel tank. It is not perfect, but no major issues.

nogoodnamesleft

Well in theory the electric car is a good idea. Clean efficient motoring and all the rest of the associated hype.

BUT.....the electricity that powers electric cars is far from clean especially in Ireland. There are a lot of technical hurdles in which to overcome in order for an electric car to become a household norm which I cant envisage being any way towards being solved in the short term.

1) I havent seen many public charging points in which to charge. Possible reason is how the electricity companies (now that Ireland is becoming an open market with the ESB selling assets) will administer how 3rd parties will resell electricity (i.e. At the supermarket while your shopping for example.)

2_How are the utility companies going to manage the grid so that every one who comes home at 6pm from work and plugs their car into their domestic electricity supply to charge their electric vehicle will have the power available to charge as every other electric car owner will be doing the exact same thing. Supply and demand this is why different tariffs exist.

3) Lots of additional real and reactive power flows being generated as each house will now have its own massive capicator (i.e. the electric cars battery).


Seems as if people are focusing on the vehicles too much not the technical challenges that exist in order for it to become a viable solution.

RandomAccess

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

2_How are the utility companies going to manage the grid so that every one who comes home at 6pm from work and plugs their car into their domestic electricity supply to charge their electric vehicle will have the power available to charge as every other electric car owner will be doing the exact same thing. Supply and demand this is why different tariffs exist.

I think this is part of the reasoning behind the smart grid and smart meters etc, you might find you can't recharge when you want unless you pay extra. Given that we are installing a lot of wind we are probably going to have to look into that 'spirit of ireland' pumped storage project. The national grid itself is pretty sturdy by all accounts, and esb & eirgrid seem pretty ruthless about progress. Its all well and good having an electric car, but if you are forced to choose not to recharge until nighttime, then it might be quite a negative. Who wants to plan their life around a recharging schedule.

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

3) Lots of additional real and reactive power flows being generated as each house will now have its own massive capicator (i.e. the electric cars battery).

I've heard that said before, but I don't really get the point. If your car is charged why would you wish to have it discharge any amount even if you were being paid? And surely this would have an effect on the life of the battery.

I'm not sure how it will all work out.

September1

I do not think that current grids would support 100% conversion from ICE to electric but if people would choose to use electric cars then grids could be exchanged. I think most of drivers would be happy to charge cars only when they sleep.