Is the U.S. military judicial system too soft?

cyberhog

Pvt 1st Class Andrew Holmes was given a paltry seven year sentence for his role in the "thrill killings" of Afghan civilians in 2010.


Holmes told the courtroom

the victim was "clearly unarmed. I could see his hands were empty. I fired six to eight rounds at the man, and I've regretted it ever since."

http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2011/09/22/holmes-pleads-guilty-to-lesser-charge-but-judge-delays-accepting-plea

Judge Lt Col Kwasi Hawks sentenced him on Friday to seven years in jail, saying there was no excuse for the murder.

"You aimed a fully loaded squad automatic weapon at [a] child that stood 15 feet away," he said.

However, Hawks also told the defendant, "I hope and I believe you will have a long and productive life, and I believe a happy life."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/24/us-soldier-jailed-afghan-civilians?newsfeed=true

The slap on the wrist sentence is bad enough but for the Judge to wish the killer a happy life is an EXTREME insult to the relatives of the murdered civilians. Holmes' attorney said he could be out of jail by the time he turns 25.

During the closing argument in his case, prosecutor Major Rob Stelle showed a large photo of Holmes standing over his victim.

"It was callous, reckless indifference, a depraved heart," he said of the killing.

"The accused had a choice. He pulled the trigger and ended that man's life."

It's worth noting the reaction members on militaryphotos.net had when this story broke last year.

Originally posted by Corrupt

If they did, full power of the military legal system down on their heads.

Originally posted by Linedoggie

If the allegations are true, they need serious prison time.

Originally posted by SuperBootie

If it is true they are heading for the death penalty and so they should as they have broken trust. That trust makes us different from the terrs.

Originally posted by WingCommander

what a disgraceful and disgusting thing to do.

i hope they get a life term in behind bars.

Originally posted by Arnie100

If this is true...They're gonna be put away for a long time.

Originally posted by Nige
I hope the Afghan population see the full force of law applied to anyone found guilty.

Originally posted by steelfury

these fools disgrace themselves and worse their branch and their ****ing(my) country!!!

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185773-American-soldiers-allegedly-kill-afghan-civilians-and-cut-their-fingers-off

So do you think its an insult to good soldiers everywhere that Holmes received such a light sentence?

Manic Moran

The first link gives the explanation. It is standard in the US legal system that if the accused enters a guilty plea that the sentence handed down will not be as stiff as if the accused had entered a not guilty plea, if for no reason than to encourage people to plead guilty and avoid the time, expense and hassle of a trial. Apparent honest remorse is also taken into account. Further, it seems that the actual conviction is not on first degree murder, but on some lesser charge.

Not so sure about the happy life comment, though.

NTM

cyberhog

Manic Moran wrote: »

It is standard in the US legal system that if the accused enters a guilty plea that the sentence handed down will not be as stiff as if the accused had entered a not guilty plea,

I doubt someone who admits firing at a 15 year old they could see was unarmed and then pose for photos with the corpse could plea bargain a 7 year sentence anywhere else in the world.

Do YOU think the sentence was too lenient?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Further, it seems that the actual conviction is not on first degree murder, but on some lesser charge.

He pleaded guilty to murder by an inherently dangerous act, possessing a finger bone from his victim, and smoking hashish.

Manic Moran

cyberhog wrote: »

I doubt someone who admits firing at a 15 year old they could see was unarmed and then pose for photos with the corpse could plea bargain a 7 year sentence anywhere else in the world.

Perhaps. I'm not sure what other countries even have plea bargaining in their legal systems. The US has it in its system.

Do YOU think the sentence was too lenient?

By the US standards of plea bargaining, it doesn't seem particularly unusual.

NTM

cyberhog

Manic Moran wrote: »

By the US standards of plea bargaining, it doesn't seem particularly unusual.

NTM

hmmm... I didn't ask if it was out of the ordinary, I asked if YOU think the sentence was too lenient?

Let me put this another way.


An Ex-Army Captain that pled guilty to bribery got 10 years.

WASHINGTON—A former captain in the U.S. Army Reserve stationed in Afghanistan was sentenced today to 120 months in prison for soliciting $1.3 million in bribes from contractors involved in U.S.-funded reconstruction efforts and participating in a conspiracy to traffic heroin from Southeast Asia.

The sentence was announced by Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division and U.S. Attorney Neil H. MacBride for the Eastern District of Virginia.

...

We will not tolerate this kind of fraud and abuse. Today’s sentence reflects the disgracefulness of Mr. Handa’s conduct.”

http://www.fbi.gov/washingtondc/press-releases/2011/former-army-reserve-captain-sentenced-to-120-months-in-prison-for-soliciting-1.3-million-in-bribes-and-conspiring-to-traffic-heroin


So do YOU think a seven year sentence reflects the disgracefulness of Mr. Holmes' conduct?

Gee Bag

Plea bargaining exists in most common law legal systems for the reasons Manic Moran stated. If every case went to a full trial then the entire system would get backed up pretty quickly. The judge can take into account the accused's actions when passing sentence ie. whether he helped the enquiry, whether he showed genuine remorse. etc.

That said, seven years seems like a very lenient sentence for shooting an unarmed young lad at close range with a SAW. You aren't going to win too many hearts and minds with a sentence like that.

Batsy

If any British service personnel - both male and female - break the law they are sent to Colchester to be "corrected."

I think the punishment there revolves around severe physical training for hours almost every single day, much worse than we received in training for the RN at HMS Raleigh, which we called "beastings."

Dogwatch

Batsy wrote: »

If any British service personnel - both male and female - break the law they are sent to Colchester to be "corrected."

I think the punishment there revolves around severe physical training for hours almost every single day, much worse than we received in training for the RN at HMS Raleigh, which we called "beastings."

Maximum sentence in Colchester is 2 years. Anything more is served in civvy prison after dishonourable discharge.

krissovo

Batsy wrote: »

If any British service personnel - both male and female - break the law they are sent to Colchester to be "corrected."

I think the punishment there revolves around severe physical training for hours almost every single day, much worse than we received in training for the RN at HMS Raleigh, which we called "beastings."

Colchester is only used for sentences over 28 days or if the unit does not have its own facilities.

From memory has a daily routine something like this:

06:00 PT
07:30 Breakfast
08:30 Inspection
09:00 Military lessons (First Aid, NBC, Field craft etc)
11:00 Drill
12:30 Lunch
13:30 PT
15:00 Military lessons
17:00 Dinner
18:00 Drill
20:00 Inspection
21:00 Free Time
22:00 Lights out

On Sunday's we didnt have the first PT session so had a 1 hour sleep in.

It basically like going back to basic training, you do leave very fit and your basic military knowledge really improves. In fact so much so its not uncommon to be promoted within 12 weeks of serving your time.

Manic Moran

So do YOU think a seven year sentence reflects the disgracefulness of Mr. Holmes' conduct?

I think the sentence seems to fit within the range of acceptable sentencing in the US judicial system. Since, overall, I'm fairly happy with the local judicial system as it currently works, I'm not going to get bent out of shape over a situation in which I do not know all the factors that were taken into account during sentencing. A similar state of affairs to that of CPT Handa, it must be said.

NTM

cyberhog

Manic Moran wrote: »

I think the sentence seems to fit within the range of acceptable sentencing in the US judicial system.

That's just another way of saying

Manic Moran wrote: »

By the US standards of plea bargaining, it doesn't seem particularly unusual.

Neither reply tells me whether YOU think the sentence is too lenient or not?

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm not going to get bent out of shape over a situation in which I do not know all the factors that were taken into account during sentencing.

That's baloney! There is sufficient information available to enable you to form an opinion. Nevermind though, I think your reluctance to give a straight answer is an answer in itself.

Manic Moran

cyberhog wrote: »

That's baloney! There is sufficient information available to enable you to form an opinion. Nevermind though, I think your reluctance to give a straight answer is an answer in itself.

If there is sufficient information for me to form an opinion by way of reading a few articles and not bothering with the trial information, then I wonder why there is an entire sentencing phase in the courtroom after the guilt has been determined?

NTM