Is it because we feel inferior

mistermouse

Looking at it, despite 'Punching above our Weight' statements in the past, our politicians seem very reluctant to stand up in or to Europe.

In past referendums we were told that we were a small periferal Island with a small population, holding back the rest.

Having been to the parliment in Europe our MEPs seemed to be in awe of everyone else and seemed to always look up at other countries and as is often said now, be the teachers pet

We always liked to be first to implement things such as smoking bans etc and bring in new EU Laws such as the speed limit designations etc, but seem unable to stand up for ourselves, challenge other European nations protection of their banks and just about whimper to keep our Corporation Tax.

We didn't hold Europe to ransom, got nothing for not doing so, but I suspect the reason we didn't even try was due to our politicians fear of dealing with Europe, or their like of being seen good there personally.

Is it because our Politicians have an inferiority complex when they go to Brussels. They seem to hide or mislead at home, be jovial in the US but really cannot represent us in Europe with any effect.

Jesus Wept

It's because they are crooked.

NIMAN

The-Rigger wrote: »

It's because they are crooked.

Thats funny, us calling others crooked.

Dyslexic I am

It's not just about feeling, it's also about being.:D

sarumite

OP, could you provide some examples of what your refer to. In practical terms what or how should we be, or in what way aren't we "standing up to Europe". It is difficult to agree or disagree with your opinion without context.

Jesus Wept

NIMAN wrote: »

Thats funny, us calling others crooked.

I'm referring to 'our politicians'.

sharper

mistermouse wrote: »

challenge other European nations protection of their banks

How would we challenge that with a straight face?

ei.sdraob

Inferior? maybe, there is alot of posts here comparing this and that to Germany and making the Germans to be some sort of saints who can do no wrong

Which i find rather silly considering that Germany and its politics and attitudes for the last 3 years have made this european wide crisis worse at each turn, and of course lets not forget that the last time this nation got all smug and superior bad things happened...

murphaph

Funnily enough the British are really the teacher's pet in Europe. They almost always implement EU directives in double quick time, often well ahead of "core EU states".

We on the other hand often leave such things until we are fined by the EU (the septic tank business is coming from an EU directive, that FF wouldn't implement, for example)

Jaysoose

I thinks its more a case of our politicians come from backgrounds were they have all been sat in the dail for decades arguing with each other over boring self indulgent issues.

The crop of politicians we have have all got great track records in getting people planning permission and sorting out medical cards for buddies etc. How in gods name are they meant to understand the workings of the EU and how ireland is viewed by this entity?

Its a simple fact that our politicians are not up to the job and will faff about making all this noise about Bondholders and the Markets when in reality they dont have the first notion what they are on about.

For years the most obvious of strokes has been pulled by the banks et al and the regulator and dept of finance bluffed what ever minister was involved at the time and they lapped it up.

For gods sake this and the previous goverment cant even add correctly and all the evidence you need is to look at what we are spending versus whats coming in.

Until the dail and seanad are completely reformed and the dead wood got rid of we are on a road to ruin.

Enda kenny is the leader of this country..how did he get the gig? because he was lucky enough that the biggest clown ever was leader of FF..it wasnt due to his radical policies or his charisma..he got it because he was the least worst of what was left.

Eamon gilmore is a former trade unionist and is second in command..and people wonder why the germans et al are making us the whipping boys? when its obvious we have a bunch of muppets running the place.

markj2009

Yes, an inferiority complex is part of it.

The fact is that all mainstream Irish political parties have bowed towards EEC\EU for decades now. No party has had the moral courage to oppose Brussels or even take a remotely 'Euro-sceptic' line.

For years the British Euro-sceptics were derided in the Irish media as right-wing loonies.

Opinions outside the 'accepted consensus' are marginalised and left to minority parties.

RichardAnd

From my own experience, the Irish seem to have a love of putting ourselves down and holding up someone else up on a pedestal. How many times have you heard a friend of relative return from a holiday with tales of the various things in their destination of choice that far outstripped something similar here. The one I hear the most is the price of coffee in Rome but as I always say, what does the average Italian earn?

Anyway, whilst it can certainly be said that there are big problems with alot of things in Ireland by and large, most services are ok. However, the self mitigation would suggest that alot of people feel inferior to other nations. On these boards for example, how many times have the Germans been held up as some sort of chosen race? I've worked with Germans and I haven't found them to be exceptionally more efficient than the Irish workers I see every day.

Ireland is a young country and I like to think that the many problems with our society, the begrudgery, the greed, the drinking, the lack of focus and whatever else might eventually leave us. We'll see in 100 years or so

Nolanger

The-Rigger wrote: »

It's because they are crooked.

It's because most are former school teachers.

Scofflaw

In fact, I would say that our government does a pretty good job of standing up for their interests in Europe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sand

If they do so good a job representing Ireand, how is it that when a beneficial redrawing of the terms on our "extend and pretend" credit facility is announced, the government is always scrambling to find out what it is? Complete mystery surrounded the savings to Ireland of the announced deal in July with figures swinging from 800 million to 1.2 billion for several days with Enda Kenny forced to admit that he could say. That doesnt demonstrate to me that the Irish government knew much about it. Its certainly not something I would be asking for.

And then on the other hand, the government publically announces its going to ask the ECB for permission to default on the unguaranteed debt at Anglo - a dead bank - and gets slapped about like a red headed step child. Which isnt a surprise - the ECB doesnt want anyone to default, and asking it for "permission" is a pointless exercise. It doesnt say much for their negotiating skill when Ireland is forced to pay out debt where everyone, everyone knows its insane and immoral, or that it has to do so having publically humiliated itself beforehand by bowing to a clown like Trichet.

It doesnt say much for Irish negotiating skill that Ireland was bounced into the PIGS bracket, suddenly friendless and without allies in European circles.

It also doesnt say much for Irish negotiating skill that they allowed themselves to be bounced into a deal in November 2010 which was a patently bad and unrealistic deal, which is already widely recognised. Some might excuse this by claiming the Irish team were playing a long game, but the same logic ( do something stupid now, hope for the best) was employed in the September 2008 guarantee. Nor does the quality of the Irish negotiating team seem to have been particularly impressive - the IMF remarked that they were surprised by the instinctive way the Irish team sided with the ECB/EU position against IMF efforts to introduce some sanity to the November deal. Of course it doesnt help that one of the Irish team was actually an ECB board member...

I dont know - Irish government incompetence is widely recognised throughout that 2000-2007 period, along with frankly disturbing incompetence in the 2008-2009 period. But we're asked to believe that despite that incompetence we're brilliant, canny negotiators able to mix it up with the inheritors of Bismark and Richelieu despite us constantly ending up on the wrong side of awful deals, derrided and sneered at by guys like Sarkozy and the wider European tabloid press, having to be constantly grateful for tiny crumbs from the table.

@Richard

On these boards for example, how many times have the Germans been held up as some sort of chosen race? I've worked with Germans and I haven't found them to be exceptionally more efficient than the Irish workers I see every day.

Id agree to a certain extent - the main difference between Ireland and "better run" countries is not the people really. Its that they have better, transparent and accountable systems of government and policy making. Ireland does not - for example it has one of the worst budgetary processes in the EU. Is it much surprise then that we also have one of the worst budgets in the EU? Italy and Greece are also marked by their terrible systems of government with similar terrible results.

If Ireland made an honest effort to examine and reform its system of government I think people would be surprised by how "Northern European" we would become..

View

mistermouse wrote: »

We didn't hold Europe to ransom, got nothing for not doing so,

You think we could have held anyone to ransom?

What would have been our threat: "Do what I say or I'll be forced to cut public spending at home by 40%?"

That would really have been scary all right...

Scofflaw

Before any other response, let me point up something with a little emphasis:

In fact, I would say that our government does a pretty good job of standing up for their interests in Europe.

Sand wrote: »

If they do so good a job representing Ireand, how is it that when a beneficial redrawing of the terms on our "extend and pretend" credit facility is announced, the government is always scrambling to find out what it is? Complete mystery surrounded the savings to Ireland of the announced deal in July with figures swinging from 800 million to 1.2 billion for several days with Enda Kenny forced to admit that he could say. That doesnt demonstrate to me that the Irish government knew much about it. Its certainly not something I would be asking for.

And then on the other hand, the government publically announces its going to ask the ECB for permission to default on the unguaranteed debt at Anglo - a dead bank - and gets slapped about like a red headed step child. Which isnt a surprise - the ECB doesnt want anyone to default, and asking it for "permission" is a pointless exercise. It doesnt say much for their negotiating skill when Ireland is forced to pay out debt where everyone, everyone knows its insane and immoral, or that it has to do so having publically humiliated itself beforehand by bowing to a clown like Trichet.

It doesnt say much for Irish negotiating skill that Ireland was bounced into the PIGS bracket, suddenly friendless and without allies in European circles.

It also doesnt say much for Irish negotiating skill that they allowed themselves to be bounced into a deal in November 2010 which was a patently bad and unrealistic deal, which is already widely recognised. Some might excuse this by claiming the Irish team were playing a long game, but the same logic ( do something stupid now, hope for the best) was employed in the September 2008 guarantee. Nor does the quality of the Irish negotiating team seem to have been particularly impressive - the IMF remarked that they were surprised by the instinctive way the Irish team sided with the ECB/EU position against IMF efforts to introduce some sanity to the November deal. Of course it doesnt help that one of the Irish team was actually an ECB board member...

I dont know - Irish government incompetence is widely recognised throughout that 2000-2007 period, along with frankly disturbing incompetence in the 2008-2009 period. But we're asked to believe that despite that incompetence we're brilliant, canny negotiators able to mix it up with the inheritors of Bismark and Richelieu despite us constantly ending up on the wrong side of awful deals, derrided and sneered at by guys like Sarkozy and the wider European tabloid press, having to be constantly grateful for tiny crumbs from the table.

I would entirely agree - unfortunately, what suited Fianna Fáil in Europe wasn't what suited the country in any sense. They used Europe as a convenient scapegoat whenever they had to do something unpopular (water charges, for example), and otherwise ignored it - after all, they were running a miracle economy, so what did they need from Europe?

Sand wrote: »

Id agree to a certain extent - the main difference between Ireland and "better run" countries is not the people really. Its that they have better, transparent and accountable systems of government and policy making. Ireland does not - for example it has one of the worst budgetary processes in the EU. Is it much surprise then that we also have one of the worst budgets in the EU? Italy and Greece are also marked by their terrible systems of government with similar terrible results.

If Ireland made an honest effort to examine and reform its system of government I think people would be surprised by how "Northern European" we would become..

And as part of that, perhaps we could aim for some sort of control over what our government does in Europe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sand

Ah, fair enough - we arent too far apart then in our views when it comes to the governments objectives. I thought I remembered you disagreeing that there was any "insider"/"outsider" divide between the government and the people though?

I would entirely agree - unfortunately, what suited Fianna Fáil in Europe wasn't what suited the country in any sense.

Im not sure "Fianna Fail" is the right description of the group guiding policy in their own interests. Lets remember that Fianna Fail has been wiped out in one glorious day not so long ago, and yet the governments policy has pretty much continued unchanged without skipping a beat. The unchanging government is the permament, unaccountable, opaque civil service (and their links with various "social partners") over which practically no one in Ireland has anything other than nominal control over.

I remember Fintan O'Toole highlighting the about face in policy between FG/Labour in opposition and in government a few months back. He seemed to miss that these about faces were easily explained by unqualified, inexperienced, distracted (constituency duties) and intimidated Ministers (who havent been in government for 14 years...) being told by their department mandarins that "You cant do that Minister" or "That would be dangerous Minister". Ministers are bullied and influenced into a particular course of action, and are then shoved out to announce and defend that course, serving as useful fall guys.

The Cabinet are simply the useful mouthpieces for an unaccountable, permament government. Ministers who actually go against the civil servants are considered remarkable for that characteristic alone (McCreevy) and often are a source of great bitterness.

"Insiders" is a better description of the group guiding Irish policy than Fianna Fail or Fine Gael or Labour.

Finnbar01

Politicians have never been up to the job of running the country. They should get out of our way and let the rest of us get on with it.

micro_dot

Maybe it has something to do with the information we're given, creating a culture? After all a few years ago we were super rich and there was a breed of really confident bankers and developers flying in helicopters and it all seemed really credible. I don't know about the Irish not standing up to Europe - we took each other for an absolute ride, flipping houses and believing the next person will pay even more for the same house. Being smart meant being on the ladder. But I agree there is a sense now again that we should only expect disappointment, that we have an overlord, the Troika, who we should not make angry. The Troika praises us when we suffer.

The only time nationalism was evoked here recently was when Brian Higgins said that to leave the euro would mean going back under Britain's skirts. Nobody mentions being competitive in Britain anymore. Nationalism is evoked to make people think in a stupid manner, and it usually scores. That inferiority thing is a kind of back-to-front nationalism maybe, but it has us stupid nonetheless.

Good loser

I don't think in general it is true to say we have an inferiority complex when it comes to dealing with Europe.

Agricultural spending is a significant element in EU budget and we have done very well out of this over the years.

As for EU directives it appears we have only implemented some of these when all deadlines have been passed.

A small state in a union of 25(?) must accept and understand the dynamics and realities of power, with good judgement and prudence. Our best/worst moment was when Albert Reynolds bullied Europe into giving us £7 bn in Structural Funds some years back. Then we voted against Maastricht and Lisbon.

hinault

We're a minute economy in real terms both demographically, economically and politically within Europe and to even greater extent throughout the world.

making this admission doesn't for one moment suggest that we have an inferiority complex. Far from it.

Like several posters have suggested when the "boom" was in full flow our politicians were very quick to lecture the domestic audience and the international audience about how "Ireland broke the mould".

If anything our politicians came across as arrogant and not a little bit condescending as well.

thebman

hinault wrote: »

We're a minute economy in real terms both demographically, economically and politically within Europe and to even greater extent throughout the world.

making this admission doesn't for one moment suggest that we have an inferiority complex. Far from it.

Like several posters have suggested when the "boom" was in full flow our politicians were very quick to lecture the domestic audience and the international audience about how "Ireland broke the mould".

If anything our politicians came across as arrogant and not a little bit condescending as well.

In fairness they did break the mold, we are still trying to fix it FFS :P

Yahew

One of the interesting things about the view of ireland from within, and without is that while the within version still reeks of the inferiority complex, the without sees Ireland as fundamentally different from the mediterranean States, like Greece, Italy and Spain. Ireland is trying to do something to correct it's problems - and the markets have priced Ireland back into a position where it may not need another bailout - the rest are more inclined to blame others. Of course there is an ideological positioning here - the WSJ is singing Ireland's glories as a riposte to Keynesians. Look, they say, Ireland is growing with austerity cuts. Keynesians , like Krugman , argue that it is growing despite them.

Nobody denies the cuts, however.

Zombrex

mistermouse wrote: »

Looking at it, despite 'Punching above our Weight' statements in the past, our politicians seem very reluctant to stand up in or to Europe.

In past referendums we were told that we were a small periferal Island with a small population, holding back the rest.

Having been to the parliment in Europe our MEPs seemed to be in awe of everyone else and seemed to always look up at other countries and as is often said now, be the teachers pet

We always liked to be first to implement things such as smoking bans etc and bring in new EU Laws such as the speed limit designations etc, but seem unable to stand up for ourselves, challenge other European nations protection of their banks and just about whimper to keep our Corporation Tax.

We didn't hold Europe to ransom, got nothing for not doing so, but I suspect the reason we didn't even try was due to our politicians fear of dealing with Europe, or their like of being seen good there personally.

Is it because our Politicians have an inferiority complex when they go to Brussels. They seem to hide or mislead at home, be jovial in the US but really cannot represent us in Europe with any effect.

It is because our politicians realize we need the EU much more than they need us.

Sand

@Zombrex

It is because our politicians realize we need the EU much more than they need us.

Thats true, but the implication that they can throw us overboard at the drop of a hat isnt true.

Lets count the number of EU states that are France and Germany. Well, theres France. And then theres Germany. So thats 2.

Then theres another 25 members. Most of whom are fairly small or otherwise unimportant nations themselves. None of whom have any interest in seeing a precedent established where small nations can be isolated and beaten for not going along with the view of Germany and/or France.

Not to mention the various EU entities which are only important in the sense of the EU treaties being respected. And those treaties ensure that the big two dont stomp all over the rest. Remember when the Lisbon Treaty was rejected by referendum first time around? Little old Ireland was the beneficiary of a diplomatic offensive with all sort of big boys flying in to listen to whinging from the "social partners".

So Ireland has plenty of potential allies, with shared interests. All thats required is that the Irish government actually start articulating Irish interests and negotiating. Instead of desperately tugging the forelock, mumbling and fainting with relief at being allowed to leave with some crumbs from the table.